Clone Wars: Degrading the good Mandalorian Name

[Ghost]

http://www.cartoonnetwork.com/tv_shows/starwars/index.html

 

 

Ugh, this latest clone wars makes me want to puke. LucasFilm apparently turned the Mandalorians into peace-loving idiots, completely or no-honour raiders, ruining the whole Mandalorian Name. To LucasFilm: Mandalorians are supposed to be honorable warriors who follow a code, not a peace-loving civilization, and even the "DeathWatch" were dishonorable. Their leader did not have the courage to die by Kenobi's hand. Which Mandalore the Ultimate did by Revan's Hand. Hopefully the Mandalorian Code will reign again, if LucasFilm has the creativity and common sense to put them back to what they were intended to be. Atleast the other CW episodes are decent and don't ruin things set by games/books before, but this one does

[TKA-001]

Mandalorians are supposed to be honorable warriors who follow a code,

Actually, the Mandalorian "code of honor" really just boils down to "never run away from or pass up an opportunity for a fight." Considering what the Mandalorians do in the canon (especially the KotOR era), the "stereotype" of them on the whole being a bunch of bloodthirsty thugs is hardly inaccurate or a new development.

 

Furthermore, I think that whether the individual story is good or not is more important than whether it contradicts previously established material, considering how incoherent and ****ed up the canon is.

[Endorenna]

I personally think that the new version of the Mandalorians makes more sense than the previous person. I haven't read any of the comics, but from what I understand, a few decades before TPM, the Mandalorians were spreading their murdering/raiding/raping/kidnapping a little too far, so the Jedi came and kicked their collective butt, killing most of them. Frankly, it only makes sense that the remaining Mandos would decide that becoming peaceful was the way to go, since the whole galaxy hates 'em. Of course, there would be a few dissenters who wanted to keep fighting, hence the Death Watch part of the episode.

[Ghost]

Yes, but it still does not make sense that the Mandos would just throw away their heritage, but before TPM, yes they were bloodthirsty punks, but during the Kotor Era they had more common sense then that. Well, atleast until after the Mando Wars.

[Sabretooth]

The Mongolians were once a bloodthirsty race of warriors feared throughout Asia - they were known for acts of horrific cruelty, infallible strategy and an unorthodox battle ethic known for its cunning and unpredictability. They were brutal, they were the scourge of the land and they created the world's largest contiguous land empire.

 

Today, Mongolia is largely insignificant in terms of world politics; the culture, while pure, is largely unrecognised in the world and militarily, they wouldn't come anywhere near their neighbours. They have a much smaller economy than many and are not only a peaceful, but hospital people.

 

Moral of the story: Times change, people change.

Corollary: Don't watch Clone Wars.

[Shem]

The harsh truth about all this is people need to remember that Star Wars was originally George Lucas' vision and that means he has a right to do whatever he wants with it.

[True_Avery]

Yes, but it still does not make sense that the Mandos would just throw away their heritage, but before TPM, yes they were bloodthirsty punks, but during the Kotor Era they had more common sense then that. Well, atleast until after the Mando Wars.

I'm going to explain this one more time to all of the young kids here who love the Mandos, especially the Kotor Mandos:

 

They were Nazis by another name. They almost always have been. Even those that were semi-likable like Canderous were still admitted bloodthirsty murders. Despite what he claimed, he no longer had any honor and really neither did any of the Mandalorians at the Kotor period. That was sort of the point.

 

They deliberately went out of their way looking for fights. They razed planets, tried to extinguish species, and genocide much of the outer rim. The point of much of the dialogue in Kotor and TSL between you and them was to show that they had a vastly skewed idea of honor, which translated to "I'm allowed to murder whoever I want whenever I want because doing so makes me strong".

 

Boba and Jango, and even some of the Clones help give the Mandalorian name a boost but in the end there is almost nothing to respect about their people, except for those whom are now apparently uncool because they are "pacifists".

 

Mandalore the Ultimate died because Revan personally sought him out and killed him. Because he was a Hitler of the Star Wars universe. He had no honor, and neither did a single Mandalorian of the Old Republic. Their race, at home, is one of seeming peace but there really has been almost no media that portrays Mandalorans as anything else but the very worst kind of people.

 

In this sense, these pacifist Mandalorians are probably the best thing to happen to their lore. Sorry, but "punks" isn't a word I'd use to describe a race that deliberately went out of their way to try to bring Cathar to extinction, man woman and child.

 

The harsh truth about all this is people need to remember that Star Wars was originally George Lucas' vision and that means he has a right to do whatever he wants with it.

This.

[Hallucination]

^When you put it that way the idea of Space Nazis is a lot less cool than it was before, and that damages the whole concept of adding 'Space' in front of any other noun for fun.

 

ITT: Ave ruins Watson's childhood life.

[adamqd]

The harsh truth about all this is people need to remember that Star Wars was originally George Lucas' vision and that means he has a right to do whatever he wants with it.

 

I really HATE that statement yet I hold it to be true... It's one of those Hard Truths, but that doesn't mean its a good enough answer for me.

 

I wont go into my opinion fully because I wasted far too many finger skin cells bangin my keyboard over this, but, George made it very clear that people couldn't mess with 19 BBY- 0 BBY... so they didn't, he made a fortune from other eras and the Canon was good. He had no interest in the Mandalorians so Other Writers making money for him did, and we invested in and loved said Group of Warriors.

 

You see, Dave Filoni brought the Mandos to the Table not George, George actually showed no interest, but later agreed during season 2. I think Dave was trying to bring in the EU crowd who had not shown love for TCW, but what he actually did was chum the Mandalorian Waters, and now wonders why there are teeth marks all over the Continuity. There was no need to mention the Mandos in my Opinion, the average Cartoon network slamo doesn't care about that stuff, and a Film only buff wouldn't know Jango was a Mando... Turns out, now he aint. Its just Retcon for the sake of Retcon, the story was meh at best, but now we have a mess...

 

edit: Oh yea and for the record, Black Lightsabers are by far the worst thing I've ever seen period, makes me vomit a little in my Mouth, I wasn't too irked by them in TFU, because, it was optional and not canon, so only the weird people would use them in the safety of their own bedrooms, but now...

 

Black-Lightsabers??, what is this, like 1984

[Astor]

There's nothing 'good' about the name 'Mandalorian'.

 

*snip*

 

I've seen people seriously argue that they're not like that anymore, and are noble and honourable people now. While there are very few truly honourable races or organisations in SW (even the Jedi), the Mandalorians in any instance have never been 'honourable', and this cult developed by Traviss and others annoys me because it's painting what are the Star Wars Universe's answer to the Klingon Empire as 'nice people' when that couldn't be farther from the truth.

[JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan]

I'm going to explain this one more time to all of the young kids here who love the Mandos, especially the Kotor Mandos:

 

They were Nazis by another name. They almost always have been. Even those that were semi-likable like Canderous were still admitted bloodthirsty murders. Despite what he claimed, he no longer had any honor and really neither did any of the Mandalorians at the Kotor period. That was sort of the point.

 

They deliberately went out of their way looking for fights. They razed planets, tried to extinguish species, and genocide much of the outer rim. The point of much of the dialogue in Kotor and TSL between you and them was to show that they had a vastly skewed idea of honor, which translated to "I'm allowed to murder whoever I want whenever I want because doing so makes me strong".

 

Boba and Jango, and even some of the Clones help give the Mandalorian name a boost but in the end there is almost nothing to respect about their people, except for those whom are now apparently uncool because they are "pacifists".

 

Mandalore the Ultimate died because Revan personally sought him out and killed him. Because he was a Hitler of the Star Wars universe. He had no honor, and neither did a single Mandalorian of the Old Republic. Their race, at home, is one of seeming peace but there really has been almost no media that portrays Mandalorans as anything else but the very worst kind of people.

 

In this sense, these pacifist Mandalorians are probably the best thing to happen to their lore. Sorry, but "punks" isn't a word I'd use to describe a race that deliberately went out of their way to try to bring Cathar to extinction, man woman and child.

this.

 

I love mandalorian armor design. but thats about it. I don't love/hate them, but i lean toward the hate side a little bit - i dislike them.

 

If i lived in the SW universe, i'd hate their guts.

 

There was no need to mention the Mandos in my Opinion, the average Cartoon network slamo doesn't care about that stuff, and a Film only buff wouldn't know Jango was a Mando... Turns out, now he aint. Its just Retcon for the sake of Retcon, the story was meh at best, but now we have a mess...

Jango?? wha-?

 

WHAT DID THEY DO

[adamqd]

 

Jango?? wha-?

 

WHAT DID THEY DO

 

Well apparently, Jango "Found" a set of Mando style Armor, and he isn't a Mandalorian... (This is of course, coming from a Pacifist Mandos mouth)

 

Complete Crap anyway, regardless of the Mando plot, TCW sux for lack of an adult argument.

[True_Avery]

Mandalorians are supposed to be honorable warriors who follow a code

Again, one of the points made by K1 and TSL was that their honor was severely twisted and black-hearted which ultimately was the reason why they killed so many people, and then were beaten down severely. This point is again hit home by the fact they have once again invaded Republic space and are killing people in the MMO as some fort of... honor redemption or something. Instead of rebuilding themselves and being productive they just rebuild themselves for the sole purpose of mass killing more people in the name of their lost honor.

 

Any Mando that isn't involved in that is a Merc or Bounty Hunter. In this respect they are much like the Krogans in Mass Effect; they are, as Mordin puts it, "Cave-men with nukes".

 

There's nothing 'good' about the name 'Mandalorian'.

 

I've seen people seriously argue that they're not like that anymore, and are noble and honourable people now. While there are very few truly honourable races or organisations in SW (even the Jedi), the Mandalorians in any instance have never been 'honourable', and this cult developed by Traviss and others annoys me because it's painting what are the Star Wars Universe's answer to the Klingon Empire as 'nice people' when that couldn't be farther from the truth.

To be fair to the Lore, however, there are a few traits to them that, if looked at alone, could be seem as pluses:

 

Revan's Mask, for instance, is from a Mandalorian woman whom tried to defend civilians from being involved in the conflict. Revan honors her sacrifice by wearing the mask as a symbol of sorts.

 

...

 

This is, of course, ignoring the fact that she invaded their planet in the first place and probably had no problem with killing every armed person on the planet, but I digress...

 

According to EU, and on what timeline you're on, they were a pretty decent race at home*. They allowed same-sex marriages, treated women equally to men, and had a strong work ethic and a very strong community support structure and, overall, if you followed their rules they often accepted you regardless of race, origin, and so on. I'm guessing the Mandalorian writers were fans of the StarShip Trooper book.

 

*Again, this is "honorable" in-so-far as their own communities. This still ignores the fact they invade and destroy on a regular basis for seemingly no other reason than to "test themselves", as Canderous put it.

 

By themselves, on their own planet and within their own communities, they could be argued to be a pretty "honorable" and "peaceful"(used loosely) nomadic race.

 

They are still, however, Space Nazi ***holes who flip-flop on their "honor" and always will be. Why they are perceived as cool villains is easy to see; why so many on this forum seem to laud over them like a superior race is beyond me.

 

I love mandalorian armor design. but thats about it. I don't love/hate them, but i lean toward the hate side a little bit - i dislike them.

 

If i lived in the SW universe, i'd hate their guts.

Oh, yeah, as Characters they're great fun. Easy to dislike, yet pretty badass as a group.

 

The idea of this faction being a group of Warrior-Monks makes them far more respectable than the bloodthirsty mercenaries they've always been. I'm all for this addition by George.

 

Jango?? wha-?

 

WHAT DID THEY DO

Jango/Boba/Clones are not Mandalorians. They are "Mandalorians". Technically, only Jango is a "Mandalorian". He was picked up by a group of "Mandalorians" and trained in their ways and found some Mando armor. He and the rest in Clone Wars are about as much Mando as your local Neo-Nazis are actual Nazis. Boba even less-so, as he trained himself for the most part from a digital book handed down to him by Jango, and almost all of his experience from, like, 15 and on was as a Merc for Jabba. Boba is a Mando in armor only.

 

As far as I know the actual race of grey eyed human-likes we saw in Kotor is a dead race and the Mandos around in Jango and Boba's time are cheap imitations holding onto a dead race's failed ideals. Essentially a dead religion that they stubbornly refuse to bury. Least that is what I understand from the books. Perhaps those were retconned as well.

[adamqd]

We all know that the Taung were the Original Mandalorians but they died out maybe 4000 years before Jango. Saying Jango isn't a Mando is like saying Darth Vader isn't a sith, because he's not a Red skinned humanoid from Ziost. Until this episode Jango was as much a Mandalorian as anyone, even though he was adopted, in fact adoption is a big part of Mando Culture, Orphaned by the battlefield etc. my Main Problem is, they are changing stuff for no reason IMO.

 

(this is directed at Dave Filoni, not directly quoting Avery btw)

[True_Avery]

We all know that the Taung were the Original Mandalorians but they died out maybe 4000 years before Jango. Saying Jango isn't a Mando is like saying Darth Vader isn't a sith, because he's not a Red skinned humanoid from Ziost. Until this episode Jango was as much a Mandalorian as anyone, even though he was adopted, in fact adoption is a big part of Mando Culture, Orphaned by the battlefield etc. my Main Problem is, they are changing stuff for no reason IMO.

Hm, at the point of Clone Wars It'd probably be more "correct" to call them Neo-Mandalorians, and even Palpatine a Neo-Sith. Not distant because of lack of the original race so much as distant due to both their respective factions being long faded.

 

But yeah, needless changes.

 

edit: Oh yea and for the record, Black Lightsabers are by far the worst thing I've ever seen period, makes me vomit a little in my Mouth, I wasn't too irked by them in TFU, because, it was optional and not canon, so only the weird people would use them in the safety of their own bedrooms, but now...

 

Black-Lightsabers??, what is this, like 1984

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darksaber_%28lightsaber%29

 

So, a Black "Light"Sabre was made because George didn't like the idea of Vibroblades?

 

... Well, I guess my first question would be: Why in the hell would you make it black? That makes even less sense than the Lightsabre itself. How does Plasma burn onyx black with white emanation?

[Sabretooth]

So, a Black "Light"Sabre was made because George didn't like the idea of Vibroblades?

 

You got a problem with that, white girl?

 

*insert funk theme*

[TKA-001]

The harsh truth about all this is people need to remember that Star Wars was originally George Lucas' vision and that means he has a right to do whatever he wants with it.

...thereby stripping anyone who doesn't like his work of the right to say what they don't like about it.

 

Yeah, that makes sense.

[jonathan7]

I'm going to explain this one more time to all of the young kids here who love the Mandos, especially the Kotor Mandos:

 

They were Nazis by another name. They almost always have been.

 

TA, I agreed with pretty much everything you wrote apart from the comparison with Nazi's I think the comparison would be far better with Imperial Japan between 1928-1945. They had a strange skewed sense of honour, and you weren't allowed to surrender, and those who did surrender were treated appallingly (including civilians). The Japanese thought the attack on Pearl Harbour was genius, much like I'm sure the Mandalorians did; indeed it took something similar to Hiroshima (Malachor V) to make the Mandalorians see sense and finally surrender.

 

So for all the Mandalorian kids out there you are usually American, you are basically venerating a society that would attack America and fight in the same way Imperial Japan did.

 

Now for the proof;

 

Firstly what does Honour mean? The first definition in most dictionaries is;

 

personal integrity; allegiance to moral principles

 

Mandalorians don't do the above, observe...

 

Quotes from Mandalorians themselves and other KotOR charachters;

 

"I've killed many people. I can't say I'm proud of it, but I have. Criminals, competitors, businessmen, police… women, children…"

 

There is no justification for the killing of children, furthermore, perhaps Carth says the most interesting thing on the whole subject to Canderous;

 

"I'm not a warrior, I'm a soldier. There's a difference. Warriors attack and conquer, they prey on the weak. Soldiers defend and protect the innocent—usually from warriors."

 

Mandalorians are warriors.

 

I have never trusted Mandalorians. They drove my parents from Cathar, aided the Sith and attacked the Republic. Their warped notions of 'honor' may provoke them to do even more heinous acts

 

The Mandalorians came and overran my world, they slaughtered my race… I cannot forget what they have done.

 

More evidence of the callousness of Mandalorians, they expect a farmer (Jon) to be able to protect his daughter when out numbered many times, and having little to no weaponry to fight with;

 

Canderous: "He should have been protecting her better if he wanted to keep her."

Juhani: "Don't be so heartless, Mandalorian."

 

The Mandalorians, slaughtered innocents, and took on child slaves;

 

Exile: You're a Mandalorian?

 

Mira: As much as any slave becomes a Mandalorian. They took prisoners on every world they conqured to bolster their ranks- and they took a lot of worlds.

 

The tragedy of war...

 

The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres

 

There is no honour in provoking war... Which is what the Mandalorians did

 

Do you wish to feel the teachings born of the Mandalorian Wars? Of all wars, of all tragedies that scream across the galaxy?

 

They caused the death of Millions, that is frankly evil, and the hero worship of them, I think is sick!

 

There will be some silly tom foolery from the Mado crew, about how great their culture is, however again from Canderous mouth;

 

"Times have changed now. The Mandalore clans have been scattered across the Outer Rim, the Republic is in decline and the Sith Empire raises to take it's place. The clans as they were aren't a threat, but the galaxy still fears us. Ha! People think we war out of spite, or bloodlust. They don't understand, and fear that. We only wanted the challenge of the battle, and glory from it - win or lose. And we lost. But now I have no real challenges. Crushing Davik's enemies and the pathetic gangs in the Lower City of Taris could not be considered the most glorious of tasks. When I think of the battles I've fought… the thousands I've killed… the worlds I've burned… I weep for my past. We'll never speak of this again. We've got work to do, so let's get to it"

 

Lets break that down;

 

People think we war out of spite, or bloodlust. They don't understand, and fear that. We only wanted the challenge of the battle, and glory from it - win or lose.

 

I'm pretty sure, that if you murdered a guy on the street, because you wanted the challenge of fighting him, it is a) still wrong, b) still evil and c) would still be convicted and sent to prison for murder.

 

When I think of the battles I've fought… the thousands I've killed

 

He admits to being a mass murderer....

 

the worlds I've burned

 

He admits to Genocide.

 

Some wonderful sense of "honour" that is.

[mimartin]

Kreia is a known lair and Juhani is clearly bias against the Mandalorians.

[mur'phon]

In my mind, the "degrading of the mandalorian name" has been acomplished quite effectively without the use of canon.

[adamqd]

*insert funk theme*

 

Funk

[Totenkopf]

@J7--I agree that the Imp Japan reference is more apt than Nazi Germany. The only comparison in my mind between the Germans and Mandalorians would be w/regard to the overall quality and ferocity of their warriors. The Germans had a better sense of sartorial style than the allies (ie cooler looking uniforms and even weaons in some cases) and were very tough soldiers/warriors. Regrettably, the regimes they fought for were unworthy. But it seems like every other word of a Mandalorian was "For Mandalore!", which seems to have more in common with Japan's obsession w/invoking the Emperor.

[Endorenna]

Why are people assuming that Jango isn't a Mandalorian now? When I heard the pacifist say that Jango wasn't a Mandalorian, I assumed that the pacifists didn't consider the Mandos following the old ways to be true Mandalorians, and therefore they didn't consider Jango Fett a Mandalorian.

 

Also...why are people mad about the black lightsaber (sorry, darksaber)? If you accept that a beam of colored energy can stop after a few feet and cut through almost anything in the galaxy, why can't you accept that the beam can be colored black?

[Trench]

So wait, are we talking about Old Republic era Mandos or the Mandalorians aorund during the Clone Wars and such?

 

The Old Republic Mandalorians had a twisted and skewed sense of honor, and as such, were easily manipulated by the Sith into going at war with the galaxy (all it took was a suggestion). They were a truly monstrous lot who treated only fellow mando'ade with respect.

 

Later on the Mandos got in a fight with the Jedi and the Republic threw a hissy fit and bombed Manda'yaim. This led to the creation of the New Mandalorians. Most Mandalorians gave up their previous lives and became a bunch of pansies who refused to defend themselves when terrorized by the Death Watch. The New Mandalorians are considered non-Mandalorian as they do not follow Resol'nare.

 

The remaining Mandalorians either went their separate ways, or became True Mandalorians. The True Mandalorians, led by then Mand'alor Jaster Mereel, conformed to a new Supercommando Codex, which abolished the old marauding ways and conformed the Mandalorians to a new code of honor. Most Mandalorians would follow this codex in later years.

 

Some that grew tired of Jaster's rule and opposed his codex split off and formed the Death Watch (led by Tor Vizsla), and returned to the old ways (as in Mandalorian Wars ways). The Death Watch essentially wanted to start the Mandalorian Wars over again, so they eliminated Jaster and his followers.

When Jango killed Tor Vizsla the Death Watch was scattered, only to be reformed later on by Pre Vizsla.

 

Most Mandalorian fans (including myself) are fans of the True Mandalorians and the Mandos who follow their honor code (Kal Skirata, Walon Vau, Bardan Jusik, etc...). The ones devoted to protecting their families, following Resol'nare, and hating the Death Watch.

[stoffe]

Also...why are people mad about the black lightsaber? If you accept that a beam of colored energy can stop after a few feet and cut through almost anything in the galaxy, why can't you accept that the beam can be colored black?

 

It's a paradox? Dark is the absence of light, so you can't have a dark beam of light, and a beam of a lack of light doesn't sound to be overly powerful.