Ground Zero Mosque

[Sabretooth]

What I was saying and what I think yourluckyday was saying is that if the Muslims that don't see the way these "extremist" do than everything would be okay, but they don't denounce such teachings and way of practicing religion it is like saying it is okay. If they would just say that we don't support this extremist in anyway than it would kill the fire that all muslims see us the same way as infidels.

Trust me, it's at the point where every time you have a terrorist attack, Muslims imams are seeing dropping bites about how they condemn the attacks, make it clear that Islam is a religion of peace, and that terrorists have no religion. If you're waiting for them to say that, then trust me, it's been said millions of times.

 

...than this extremist can't say they are back by the muslims people or something like that. Without Muslims backing them up these extremist are nothing

Do you really think that extremist Muslim terrorists are working on support from some nebulous Pan-Muslim Federation or something? They have the machinery to make their own money, and whatever they need is funded to them via Saudi Arabia (not to mention that their initial support and existence is courtesy the United States).

 

If you want to stop the Muslims backing terrorists, raid Pakistan or Saudi Arabia, both of which are pretty much the hands that feed the terror in Iraq and Afghanistan. Attacking innocent Muslims in America for trying to smooth relations is just an act of willful ignorance.

 

Do you think honestly putting one mosque in a place filled with a pool a 500 seat auditorium really represents Religious Tolerance?

I would like to clarify again that there is no mosque in Park51.

[GODKING]

Trust me, it's at the point where every time you have a terrorist attack, Muslims imams are seeing dropping bites about how they condemn the attacks, make it clear that Islam is a religion of peace, and that terrorists have no religion. If you're waiting for them to say that, then trust me, it's been said millions of times.

 

 

Do you really think that extremist Muslim terrorists are working on support from some nebulous Pan-Muslim Federation or something? They have the machinery to make their own money, and whatever they need is funded to them via Saudi Arabia (not to mention that their initial support and existence is courtesy the United States).

 

If you want to stop the Muslims backing terrorists, raid Pakistan or Saudi Arabia, both of which are pretty much the hands that feed the terror in Iraq and Afghanistan. Attacking innocent Muslims in America for trying to smooth relations is just an act of willful ignorance.

 

 

I would like to clarify again that there is no mosque in Park51.

 

The project surmounted a final hurdle on Aug. 3, 2010, when a decision by the New York City's Landmarks Preservation Commission cleared the way for the construction of Park51. The tower of as many as 15 stories will house a mosque, a 500-seat auditorium, and a pool. Its leaders say it will be modeled on the Y.M.C.A. and Jewish Community Center in Manhattan.

 

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/p/park51/index.html

 

That is the extact text of the website above.

[Sabretooth]

The project surmounted a final hurdle on Aug. 3, 2010, when a decision by the New York City's Landmarks Preservation Commission cleared the way for the construction of Park51. The tower of as many as 15 stories will house a mosque, a 500-seat auditorium, and a pool. Its leaders say it will be modeled on the Y.M.C.A. and Jewish Community Center in Manhattan.

 

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/p/park51/index.html

 

That is the extact text of the website above.

 

The NYT seems to be misled as well, because a Muslim prayer space does not equal a mosque. You can make a prayer space in an empty room, if you liked; except this one will house a lot of people.

 

Here's the more original opinion, by Keith Olbermann.

 

If you've been in, or seen a real mosque, you'll know that it's more than just a prayer space.

[JediMaster12]

First off your brother being Muslim makes you completely biased if your brother wasn't muslim their is a chance that you wouldn't be as tolerance as you say you are toward Muslims.

 

It's a lot different when a family member converts to Islam rather than being the outsider friend like me. I have Muslim friends but that doesn't make me biased towards them because I am not related to them as the gist of your argument suggests. I'm an outsider and therefore subject to the possibility of becoming bigoted if I chose to be but because of my family's own affliation against anyone who isn't Christian, I choose to disavow their beliefs and make friends with whomever I want and in effect have become the heathen in my family.

 

I do understand a bit of what those people are going through being protested against and having stinking double standards applied. I've had them all my life because 1) I am of Hispanic heritage and 2) I am a woman. As far as the Doc is concerned, he has made clear arguments especially about what the United States is supposed to be about. However given recent events, I seriously doubt we are that anymore since there has been an insistence on everything being applied in double standards, etc. I guess we haven't learned much from history eh?

 

And this place is suspose to be a place of Religious Tolerance and bring Religions together and understand each other. Don't you think in this giantic building they could have a room that could represent each religion for example: church, mosque, synagogue, etc. don't you think that would be a TRUE place of Religious Tolerance. Do you think honestly putting one mosque in a place filled with a pool a 500 seat auditorium really represents Religious Tolerance?[/Quote]

 

Actually I would say that a Muslim prayer place (as Sabre corrects), a pool and an auditorium housed in the same area is a good show of tolerance. To me that says that people are willing to put aside differences and commune within a similar space. Heck wish that were so about other issues.

[The Doctor]

On another note: as Lynk Former made clear, a prayer space != a mosque. Therefore, such a space could conceivably be used by any religious or even (though not quite as likely) a secular group who asked to use it. Just as how, in any properly equipped YMCA, any group can book any of the meeting rooms for pretty much any legal activity they wish to use it for, so long as they pay for their time there.

[Jae Onasi]

The project surmounted a final hurdle on Aug. 3, 2010, when a decision by the New York City's Landmarks Preservation Commission cleared the way for the construction of Park51. The tower of as many as 15 stories will house a mosque, a 500-seat auditorium, and a pool. Its leaders say it will be modeled on the Y.M.C.A. and Jewish Community Center in Manhattan.

 

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/p/park51/index.html

 

That is the extact text of the website above.

 

Welcome to America, the melting pot of the world. You don't get to violate the First Amendment rights of one group just because you don't happen to like their religion.

 

Is it tacky? Probably. However, there's no law against being tacky. Is the imam running it a bit of a headstrong in-your-face guy? Yes, but that's not illegal, either--just look at Rush Limbaugh. Is it legal? Yes.

 

Skyscrapers are so tall you can see for miles in any direction. I'm pretty darn sure there's at least one mosque within eyeshot of the proposed WTC replacement besides this one. A second isn't going to make one bit of difference.

[urluckyday]

 

Skyscrapers are so tall you can see for miles in any direction. I'm pretty darn sure there's at least one mosque within eyeshot of the proposed WTC replacement besides this one. A second isn't going to make one bit of difference.

 

I remember hearing that the proposed "community center" is actually further away from the WTC than a mosque that is already established there.

[Tommycat]

However, there's no law against being tacky.

Yeah, we know that's true. Otherwise they would never be able to sell leopard print spandex.

[Samnmax221]

Is it tacky? Probably.

 

There's nothing tacky about it. He's not doing it to get up in the face of New Yorkers, and as far as Muslims go he's incredibly liberal.

[Tommycat]

Yes, tacky. People who wear leopard print spandex aren't doing so to get up in someone's face about it. It doesn't make it any less tacky.

 

Regardless, There's nothing illegal about tacky. Just bothers people. Until I see them arresting people with 24 inch spinners on $100 cars(which incidentally bothers me more than the mosque), They can do whatever they want with it. Hell they could put a monument to the 19 hijackers in there. Still protected by the First amendment.

[Samnmax221]

It's not even at ground zero, it's not tacky. If you want tacky they converted the building that used to be my elementary school into a nutty Baptist church, that's tacky.

[mimartin]

It's not even at ground zero

You are never going to get that through people’s heads. Some anti-Muslim groups decides to attack the community center based on the lie that it is at Ground Zero and people are gullible enough to believe it.

 

Reminds me of a line from The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, “when the legend becomes fact print the legend.”

[Tommycat]

It's not even at ground zero, it's not tacky. If you want tacky they converted the building that used to be my elementary school into a nutty Baptist church, that's tacky.

Nice try. This building was damaged during the attacks. Parts of the aircraft used damaged the roof. Yes, it's still tacky. They even applied for a grant of $5 million which was intended to rebuild the area surrounding the former WTC. So it's close enough to be considered for a grant for damage done during 9/11, but not close enough to be considered "tacky?" Sorry, if they are close enough to apply for 9/11 grant money, then it's tacky.

 

BUT it is still protected by the First amendment. They are breaking no laws. I've said it a number of times. EVEN IF it was somehow a shrine to the 19 hijackers, it could still be protected.

 

And mimartin, many Muslims also oppose it in that location. Though I was mistaken about the Saudi King. It was in the New York Post, and repeated on the news. However quite a few Muslims I know think it's a bad place for it, even though there is nothing inherently wrong with it. Too close. But nothing illegal.

[mimartin]

And mimartin, many Muslims also oppose it in that location.

So what? I’m a Christian American and I’m not opposed to the location. I don’t think the person that owns the land is opposed to the community center and that is the only person that counts.

 

I don’t see why Muslims obliviously worried about the repercussions matter more than those not opposed to the site.

[Jae Onasi]

There's nothing tacky about it.

I might buy that assessment if you weren't a regular in the cockring thread. Your idea of 'tacky' and the majority of the rest of the world's idea of tacky are vastly different.

 

I also might have bought it if I didn't have family in NYC, and if I didn't have a good friend in the NYC Fire Dept. Hazmat division who didn't end up crushed to dust in the WTC pile of rubble by the grace of God.

 

It's tacky.

 

We're also stuck with it, we may as well do something positive to make the best of it. Perhaps people might even learn about different cultures from each other. If we're lucky, they'll have a baklava bake sale on Hummus night.

[Sabretooth]

Perhaps people might even learn about different cultures from each other.

 

all you abrahamic religions are more or less the same culture any way

[jrrtoken]

It's tacky.

If it was tacky, they would've built right over the WTC, which - contrary to popular belief - is not happening. The building also would've also been a bona-fide mosque, which is also untrue, as per this thread. This isn't the Romans desecrating the Temple here; it's more like a handful of humanitarian pacifists building a secular/interfaith memorial a few blocks away from a pseudo-religious site... as a remembrance to that very pseudo-religious site. The organizers happen to share the same religion as those who facilitated the establishment of said pseudo-religious site, but given the number of Muslims in the world today, the odds of that happening is an ironic coincidence, and not some ziggurat of cultural hegemony.

 

Or maybe I'm just looking at this the wrong way. Maybe the Muslim HiveMind does not see WTC as an icon of local sacredness, but instead, sees the multitude of temples and shrines devoted towards the the god of Consumerism, or in this case, a Burlington Coat Factory. So in reality, Muslims are not here to usurp patriotism, but instead... to eradicate capitalism!

 

We're also stuck with it, we may as well do something positive to make the best of it. Perhaps people might even learn about different cultures from each other. If we're lucky, they'll have a baklava bake sale on Hummus night.

Pro-tip: Many Muslims probably do not eat hummus/baklava/whatever-else-Muslims-eat, as much as most Christians most likely do not drink wine and eat spaghetti on a daily basis. This is probably because most Muslims are located literally across the world from where the Muslims that do eat stereotypical-Muslim-food (hint: it's not infant entrails). So if anything's tacky, it's that. Hosting a hog roast complete with dime-store-beer also isn't a good substitute.

[Ctrl Alt Del]

Or maybe I'm just looking at this the wrong way. Maybe the Muslim HiveMind does not see WTC as an icon of local sacredness, but instead, sees the multitude of temples and shrines devoted towards the the god of Consumerism, or in this case, a Burlington Coat Factory. So in reality, Muslims are not here to usurp patriotism, but instead... to eradicate capitalism!

Which is, apparently, even worse. Next to endangering Democracy, of course.

[Samnmax221]

Nice try. This building was damaged during the attacks. Parts of the aircraft used damaged the roof. Yes, it's still tacky. They even applied for a grant of $5 million which was intended to rebuild the area surrounding the former WTC. So it's close enough to be considered for a grant for damage done during 9/11, but not close enough to be considered "tacky?" Sorry, if they are close enough to apply for 9/11 grant money, then it's tacky.

Plane parts fell everywhere, using their landing spot as means of deciding how tacky something is, is stupid. You are aware that the reason they give out grant money in the area is to get the area redeveloped so it can move forward after being economically devastated. Anyone who protested the Islamic Center (It's also not a Mosque, not that a little technicality like that will ever sink in) was just standing in the way of getting lower Manhattan back on it's feet.

 

I also might have bought it if I didn't have family in NYC, and if I didn't have a good friend in the NYC Fire Dept. Hazmat division who didn't end up crushed to dust in the WTC pile of rubble by the grace of God.

 

It's tacky.

Cool, thanks for giving me permission to judge Christians as one homogenous group. Next time I see some out in front of the PlannedParenthood or Center for Women I'm going to call the cops before they bomb the place or shoot someone.

[Sabretooth]

tack·y 2 (tk)

adj. tack·i·er, tack·i·est Informal

1. Neglected and in a state of disrepair: a tacky old cabin in the woods.

2.

a. Lacking style or good taste; tawdry: tacky clothes.

b. Distasteful or offensive; tasteless: a tacky remark.

 

1. Certainly not

2 a. Did you see the facade of that building? It looks sexy as all hell.

2 b. While it's distasteful and offensive to a group that would find a crescent-and-star distasteful and ofensive, it's hard to say to that a community centre established to promote inter-faith exchanges at a time when America desperately needs them, is tacky.

[Tommycat]

So what? I’m a Christian American and I’m not opposed to the location. I don’t think the person that owns the land is opposed to the community center and that is the only person that counts.

 

I don’t see why Muslims obliviously worried about repossessions matter more than those not opposed to the site.

 

For one, the Muslims I'm talking about are in the NYC area. For another, YOU'RE the ones framing it as those opposed to the building are a bunch if bigots and racists. That's simply not true. Are there some racists opposed to it? Sure. But not all of the opposition comes from racists and bigots. And if you have even bothered to read ANY of my posts inb this thread, you would have seen that while I don't necessarily like it, I also feel it is well within his rights to build it there. As I said even if(note:I'm not saying that this building IS) he wanted to build a dang shrine to the hijackers it's still protected under the FIRST FRIGGIN AMENDMENT TO THE US CONSTITUTION!!!!

 

Not sure where you're going with the "repossessions" bit. I'm sure it probably has something to do with the price of tea in China.

 

Samnmax: As stated before, tacky does not mean illegal. It's just tacky. In bad taste. After learning how upset people were to continue on that course, and even more tacky to request funds from 9/11 AFTER you are already aware of how sensitive everyone is. You are not going to convince me that it isn't tacky. And you don't have to convince me that it should be built, because honestly I've said it enough times that as long as he owns the land and has the proper permits, build away. If someone builds a catholic center near where an abortion clinic was bombed, I'd call that tacky too.

[Samnmax221]

For one, the Muslims I'm talking about are in the NYC area. For another, YOU'RE the ones framing it as those opposed to the building are a bunch if bigots and racists.

Most of the anti-Islamic Community Center stuff has come from ignorant Tea Party ****heads.

Hate to haul this out again.

At one point, a portion of the crowd menacingly surrounded two Egyptian men who were speaking Arabic and were thought to be Muslims.

 

"Go home," several shouted from the crowd.

 

"Get out," others shouted.

 

In fact, the two men – Joseph Nassralla and Karam El Masry — were not Muslims at all. They turned out to be Egyptian Coptic Christians who work for a California-based Christian satellite TV station called "The Way." Both said they had come to protest the mosque.

 

"I'm a Christian," Nassralla shouted to the crowd, his eyes bulging and beads of sweat rolling down his face.

 

But it was no use. The protesters had become so angry at what they thought were Muslims that New York City police officers had to rush in and pull Nassralla and El Masry to safety.

 

"I flew nine hours in an airplane to come here," a frustrated Nassralla said afterward.

If you want tacky, there it is. What we're looking at here is a bunch of idiots who do whatever Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin tell them to do. Unfortunately due to advancing technology fools like this are no longer isolated from each other.

[Tommycat]

Most of the anti-Islamic Community Center stuff has come from ignorant Tea Party ****heads.

Hate to haul this out again.

 

If you want tacky, there it is. What we're looking at here is a bunch of idiots who do whatever Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin tell them to do. Unfortunately due to advancing technology fools like this are no longer isolated from each other.

 

Wow. So you are up in arms about using a broad brush to paint Muslims, so as your defense you use a broad brush to paint the opposition. Irony.

[Jae Onasi]

Yes, it's tacky to attack Egyptian Coptics who are protesting the site. It would also be tacky to call my friend in Ohio, who happens to be a Palestinian Catholic from Nazareth, Israel, a Muslim in the same vein. I don't think the project is as evil as Beck or Limbaugh or whoever on the far right is painting it, but given the comments made by the guy who's going to be leading this 'community center'/whatever it's going to be when it's done, it's not all warm and fuzzy "Oh let's just all get along together", either.

 

And yes, hummus is in a lot of diets, and not just Middle Eastern, thought it's associated predominantly with Middle Eastern cuisine. It's been in that diet for quite some time--there are variations of bean dishes in many cultures, so this is no surprise. Check out any Middle Eastern cookbook (Egyptian, Saudi, Turkish, Iraqi, to name a few), both modern and not-so-modern, and you'll find hummus recipes. Read about the foods served at various celebrations of Muslim holidays, and pita (or unleavened bread, depending) and hummus are usually part of it. Hummus and other legume-based dishes like lentils are a cheap and ready source of protein when meat isn't available. Hummus happens to be in my diet, too (and pizza and pasta happens to be in the diet of my Palestinian friend, just for giggles), because it a. has a fair bit of protein and b. tastes darned good when it's made properly, and since I have easy access to fresh garlic and tahini, I can make it myself and avoid the Americanized yukky stuff.

 

I can go into far more detail about history of cooking around the world if you feel you want to discuss the importance of hummus in the Middle Eastern community, but this is the thread about the tacky-yet-legal-community center/mosque/whatever name the group is calling it today for "Political Correctness" and to cover their butts in case some protester decides to be an idiot.

[Samnmax221]

Wow. So you are up in arms about using a broad brush to paint Muslims, so as your defense you use a broad brush to paint the opposition. Irony.

When the opposition is mostly astroturfed crazies up on the same call to arms, yes I do.