Return to Monkey Island

[Al.DeHyde]

My guess is that they're going to show us the map of an island next.

 

16 hours ago, Vainamoinen said:

Inventory items, also extremely spoilery. No inventory items will be shown. I mean, what if Guybrush has 69 Pieces o' Eight in his inventory and by pure deduction we guess the entirety of the game? ( @Al.DeHyde will know why this is hilariously funny if, you know, he did the thing) 🙉

Er, no I don't. The only slightly relevant discussion I can remember is the one about why 69 is a pervy number. Don't think anyone has fully explained why yet🤔

[KestrelPi]

3 hours ago, Vainamoinen said:

 

Just out of the habit of contradicting myself, I'm also pretty certain the Marley Foundation is on Monkey Island.

agreed, I doubt any of the other islands will be so 'jungly'

 

I don't think we've seen much of Terror Island as I have a hunch that might be a 'skull island' style joke, but maybe this?

5 hours ago, Niemandswasser said:

 

They have shown us a bit, though--we've seen the giant monkey head in a couple shots. The jungle area where we saw LeChuck in the trailer could be set there as well.

 

That's a point actually some of the shots of (maybe) Monkey Island look like they take place at day and the monkey head and some other shots look like night. I'd love it if we got to see some of the locations at different times of day. It's possible to do that kind of transition nowadays without repainting the whole scene, so it wouldn't surprise me if they tinkered with this.

 

I'm still not sure if I really want to see a daytime Melee (aside from that fan one someone did) but I'd be interested, at least.

[Vainamoinen]

2 hours ago, Al.DeHyde said:

My guess is that they're going to show us the map of an island next.

 
With a teensy Guybrush or even Elaine walking around on it. Oh, I'd be over the moon. I want all those delicious maps now.

 

And you have of course all the facts at hand concerning he 69 joke. 🥸

[Vainamoinen]

The madness is escalating.

[KestrelPi]

Ah yes, there's more of this walkthrough on my fridge

 

[Vainamoinen]

35 minutes ago, KestrelPi said:

Ah yes, there's more of this walkthrough on my fridge

 

 

But but but ... yours doesn't rhyme?!

[Groggoccino]

I've always loved Monkey 4, and I always find it very surprising when it's criticized for getting the delicate balance between whimsical pirate story and anachronisms wrong. For me, that's exactly the point. Besides being an excellent adventure game in its own right (with the caveat of the Monkey Island chapter, which I think is lackluster, design-wise), I think that's one of the reasons why it's such an interesting, fitting addition to the series, thematically speaking.

 

In the original games, anachronisms and fourth-wall breaking seeped in here and there. Especially in Monkey 2, they were used to create a very particular vibe: this weird feeling that, beneath the surface of the Monkey Island world, there's a different world. Our world. Reality. Lurking. Struggling to come up to the surface. Like a game Guybrush can't or doesn't want to stop playing. Maybe. Maybe not.

 

If you decide to analyze the series from this perspective, Escape fits the theme like a glove. The whole vibe of the game seems to be: the world of Monkey Island is unraveling. The balance (the fourth wall) has been broken and reality is taking over. The tale is about to end. "Playtime" is about to be over. Of course the anachronisms are out of control: the "fantasy" is becoming unsustainable and Guybrush himself is becoming the anachronism.

 

Even to this day, I remember the feeling I had while playing the game for the first time, so many years ago. The vague feeling that an indefinable point of no return was about to be reached, and that the world of Monkey Island was going to end in an irrecoverable way.

 

Massively underrated game, in my opinion.

 

Also, I have to say I agree with what @madmardi said about there being a double standard with Escape in the fanbase, which I think has only become more obvious with the announcement of Return. With Return, it seems that, as a counterreaction to the initial backlash, we've quickly reached a point in which criticizing the game (particularly the art style), even when done in a respectful way, is kind of frowned upon. Whereas making snarky, dismissive or outright insulting comments about Escape seems to be totally fair game, as it's always been. I mean, in the Monkey Island subreddit there's a featured post literally asking people not to say anything negative about Return because "those opinions have already been heard".

 

Strangely enough, after 22 years (and counting) of people regularly referring to Escape as if it were an irredeemable steaming pile of crap, almost nobody seems to think that there's enough negativity about that one.

Edited July 24, 2022 by Groggoccino

[KestrelPi]

1 hour ago, KestrelPi said:

Ah yes, there's more of this walkthrough on my fridge

 

The puzzles in this part of the game aren't at sea

[KestrelPi]

38 minutes ago, Groggoccino said:

I've always loved Monkey 4, and I always find it very surprising when it's criticized for getting the delicate balance between whimsical pirate story and anachronisms wrong. For me, that's exactly the point. Besides being an excellent adventure game in its own right (with the caveat of the Monkey Island chapter, which I think is lackluster, design-wise), I think that's one of the reasons why it's such an interesting, fitting addition to the series, thematically speaking.

 

In the original games, anachronisms and fourth-wall breaking seeped in here and there. Especially in Monkey 2, they were used to create a very particular vibe: this weird feeling that, beneath the surface of the Monkey Island world, there's a different world. Our world. Reality. Lurking. Struggling to come up to the surface. Like a game Guybrush can't or doesn't want to stop playing. Maybe. Maybe not.

 

If you decide to analyze the series from this perspective, Escape fits the theme like a glove. The whole vibe of the game seems to be: the world of Monkey Island is unraveling. The balance (the fourth wall) has been broken and reality is taking over. The tale is about to end. "Playtime" is about to be over. Of course the anachronisms are out of control: the "fantasy" is becoming unsustainable and Guybrush himself is becoming the anachronism.

 

Even to this day, I remember the feeling I had while playing the game for the first time, so many years ago. The vague feeling that an indefinable point of no return was about to be reached, and that the world of Monkey Island was going to end in an irrecoverable way.

 

Massively underrated game, in my opinion.

 

Also, I have to say I agree with what @madmardi said about there being a double standard with Escape in the fanbase, which I think has only become more obvious with the announcement of Return. With Return, it seems that, as a counterreaction to the initial backlash, we've quickly reached a point in which criticizing the game (particularly the art style), even when done in a respectful way, is kind of frowned upon. Whereas making snarky, dismissive or outright insulting comments about Escape seems to be totally fair game, as it's always been. I mean, in the Monkey Island subreddit there's a featured post literally asking people not to say anything negative about Return because "those opinions have already been heard".

 

Strangely enough, after 22 years (and counting) of people regularly referring to Escape as if it were an irredeemable steaming pile of crap, almost nobody seems to think that there's enough negativity about that one.

 

Look, I'm perfectly fine with you enjoying EMI just as much as you like, but I am going to get grumpy if by way of backlash people are going to start accusing us of a double standard (especially when comparing our reaction to EMI, a two decade old game to a game that none* of us have played).

 

You have to understand, that especially the people here desperately wanted to love EMI just as much as the others. So much so that when it first was revealed and came out my overriding instinct was to try to get people to give it a chance. So it's not out of any sort of glee that we criticize parts of it. We don't 'love to hate' it. Many of us (like me) don't even hate it, we just have a lot of problems with it.

 

When I ask people to hold judgement on ReMI I'm doing exactly what I did for EMI, at the time. I'm telling people to give it a chance. No double standard here, no inconsistency, just literally two decades to reflect on what EMI was, and finding that a lot of it doesn't really work for me. My initial response to EMI was rather positive, because I remember enjoying the puzzles and liking the music and art at the time, and being... tolerant of the plot and writing. It took a couple of years for the initial glow to wear off and for me to figure out where I stood on it all. (also I was 18 when EMI came out, I'm 40 now. My tastes have changed and evolved)

 

Now -- I like your reasons for liking EMI. They're good reasons. I'm glad that's how you've come to enjoy the game, and nothing I can possibly say can take that away from you, nor would I want it to. It's just that those reasons don't work for me. I don't really agree with them, the ideas about EMI that you talk about don't really excite me or feel to me like they fit in with how I see the MI universe in the same way they do to you. And my issues with EMI go beyond plot and setting and into the writing and comedy style, too, so even if I vibed with the story choices I still think I wouldn't vibe with the writing.

 

At the moment I don't know what the story or writing of ReMI is like, and so I can't possibly comment on it or compare it to EMI. And we've seen a BIT of art, mostly out of context. So, much like EMI, when I play ReMI I'll see if I enjoy the story, and the writing, and it'll probably be a couple of years before the dust settles and I'll truly be able to see how I feel about it in the context of the rest of it.

 

By all means be disappointed more of us don't see what you see in EMI, but don't tell us it's because we're not being fair.

 

*okay, one

Edited July 24, 2022 by KestrelPi

[Vainamoinen]

20 minutes ago, Groggoccino said:

Also, I have to say I agree with what @madmardi said about there being a double standard with Escape in the fanbase, which I think has only become more obvious with the announcement of Return. With Return, it seems that, as a counterreaction to the initial backlash, we've quickly reached a point in which criticizing the game (particularly the art style), even when done in a respectful way, is kind of frowned upon. Whereas making snarky, dismissive or outright insulting comments about Escape seems to be totally fair game, as it's always been. I mean, in the Monkey Island subreddit there's a featured post literally asking people not to say anything negative about Return because "those opinions have already been heard".

 

Strangely enough, after 22 years (and counting) of people regularly referring to Escape as if it were an irredeemable steaming pile of crap, almost nobody seems to think that there's enough negativity about that one.

 

Strong first four paragraphs, @Groggoccino. After that, I do have a few objections.

 

It's true that dissing Escape has kind of become a canonical Monkey Island fan reaction. But it's also true that this community has done its utmost to throw that old paradigm out the window. We're trying to wrestle that negativity to the ground. We're absolutely not losing great, dedicated, contributing and positive community members over this trivial matter.

 

To find analogy to the criticism voiced towards Return to Monkey Island's art style is, in my opinion, valid. But there are of course also glaringly obvious differences. In, for example, the places that criticism is voiced in. Its tone. Its foundation. The course of argumentation. That it's targeted at real people. That it attempts to explain the reasons for the choice by plainly insulting the greatest heroes that the people in this thread have.

 

That's not like criticizing Escape, that is something new and horrible that didn't even exist 20 years ago.

 

The art style 'debate' has quickly degenerated into one of those "Not all fans" defense methods. What filth Ron had to wade through on his own blog was completely unacceptable. Just about five percent of those posts were insult trolls and right wing nutjobs. If I hated the living guts out of ReMI's art style, I would rather have shot myself than putting my own "respectful" criticism right there between abusive a-holes and nazis. I would not have been that desperate to get my "arguments" directly to the creator to participate in the abuse.

 

Voicing respectful art style criticism in respectful, positive minded communities is ... difficult ... though, I readily concede that. I think there's a good reason.

 

Some arguments would easily survive the tone police but still be insinuating quite nasty things ("selling out", "corporate art"). Some claims about the looks of the game are factually wrong ("cheap flash game", "bad animation"). Often times, the more civilized criticism views the whole franchise through coke bottle thick nostalgia glasses and claims fantastic things about the older games. Then there's the "should have been pixel art" crew (impossible). The "just do the graphics of MI2 in HD" crowd (impossible). The "like CMI but in HD" crowd (also, quite impossible). The "could have chosen any art style BUT NOT THIS ONE" folks.

 

You can voice above criticism in a civil tone, but it would still be laughable criticism.

 

At the face of it, it's art criticism. And that is on the one hand fiendishly subjective, on the other hand it's like taking a knife to the artist's soul. Not many people have the knowledge and skill, and even fewer have the empathy for that. If you've ever been on an artist forum, you might even come to the conclusion that even the artists themselves often lack the empathy for constructive art criticism towards their peers.

 

So what I'm asking of the critics might, another concession here, impossible for them to give. But I hope it has become obvious why I can so seldom accept the form of the present criticism.

 

 

[Jake]

1 hour ago, Groggoccino said:

Also, I have to say I agree with what @madmardi said about there being a double standard with Escape in the fanbase, which I think has only become more obvious with the announcement of Return. With Return, it seems that, as a counterreaction to the initial backlash, we've quickly reached a point in which criticizing the game (particularly the art style), even when done in a respectful way, is kind of frowned upon.

Come back in six months with this take, once the game is out and people have had time to digest it a little. Return isn’t out yet, Escape has been out for two decades. When Escape was announced people were tentative because of the look and introduction of 3D, but the prevailing feeling was “wait and see, it’s a new monkey island after all!” 
 

(Also: I really like and appreciate your enthusiasm for Escape. It’s not my favorite game by a long shot, but there’s a lot to like in it, and you can tell the team worked hard on it.)

 

[KestrelPi]

47 minutes ago, Vainamoinen said:

 

The art style 'debate' has quickly degenerated into one of those "Not all fans" defense methods. What filth Ron had to wade through on his own blog was completely unacceptable. Just about five percent of those posts were insult trolls and right wing nutjobs. If I hated the living guts out of ReMI's art style, I would rather have shot myself than putting my own "respectful" criticism right there between abusive a-holes and nazis. I would not have been that desperate to get my "arguments" directly to the creator to participate in the abuse.

 

Right, this is a bit of an issue when talking about criticism. It's difficult to offer 'good' criticism in a context where many people are doing so abusively, even if that's not your intention.

 

If people were saying they hated my work, and some were being extra abusive, I wouldn't sift through it just to find the people who were saying they hated my work but in a 'nice' way because... that's not the kind of environment that constructive critiques are welcome. I'd instead take some comfort in the people who liked it. I'm only human, after all. In that environment, even 'friendly' criticism, even constructive comments are just adding to the general pile on.

 

But especially, in context, Rex is someone who played these games very early on, is a fan of them, and was likely very very nervous about showing his work to the world of other adventure game fans when it's been so carefully controlled for 2 years. You only need a little bit of empathy, I think, to appreciate that the discourse turning into an internet argument about whether the art style is good or not, is probably going to be a huge bummer to both Ron and Rex and everyone else involved. They don't want people to linger on this, and Ron is quite rightly trying to shield Rex from the worst of it.

 

But there is a time and place for it all. The reason that NOW I'm willing to be a bit more direct and less circumspect with my EMI criticisms is that I think even the most sensitive creatives can look back on a 22 year old work and acknowledge its flaws - by that time they probably agree with some of them, and besides they've heard it all before (see ... I think it was Stemmle jokingly saying 'sorry' about Monkey Kombat). That's the reason why now I'm willing to be very direct about some of the things I don't think worked so well in Tales, even though I know at least one forum regular here who was heavily involved with the game - because I know that NOW that criticism will be taken in the right spirit, enough time has past that everyone can look back on Tales with a clear head.

 

That's not to say of course we can never criticise something unless we leave enough time - but I think it's worth acknowledging that the context in which the criticism is happening matters.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 24, 2022 by KestrelPi

[Jake]

6 minutes ago, KestrelPi said:

That's the reason why now I'm willing to be very direct about some of the things I don't think worked so well in Tales, even though I know at least one forum regular here who was heavily involved with the game - because I know that NOW that criticism will be taken in the right spirit, enough time has past that everyone can look back on Tales with a clear head.

Just know you’re dead to me. 

[ThunderPeel2001]

You can criticise whatever you want, but what happened with ReMI was about outright abuse. And it was towards a tiny team of people whose game wasn't even out yet. Call it "tone police" if you want, but IMO abuse isn't acceptable anywhere at any time. (And yes, of course I've failed at this in my life, but it's doesn't mean I think my behaviour has been acceptable when I've failed.)

 

So I don't see it as a double standard when compared to Escape. Right now everyone's just tired of hearing complaints about the new art style because it's a shallow and subjective observation that doesn't lead to interesting discussion. And also because there's an unfortunate connection to some horrible human beings. So, yes it is kind of frowned upon... because only we're all sick of it, and we don't want to open the flood gates to those horrible human beings thinking we're on the same team.

 

I also agree with Jake that come back here in six months after the game has been released, and we've all time to digest it, and you'll see lots of balanced discussion about the game's perceived merits and flaws. In fact, probably for the next 20 years!

 

I also think it's great that some people have got so much love for Escape. It deserves it! And I'm glad that complaints about it here tend to be considered and thoughtful, just like the discussions about ReMI will be once it's released. 

Edited July 24, 2022 by ThunderPeel2001

[BaronGrackle]

I'm gradually working my way through this thread... in the earlier pages, there are comments and a magazine article quote that referred to Secret if Monkey introducing COMEDY to adventure games.

 

I really enjoyed the comedy in Monkey Island, but I do want to point out that beforehand there were a few Kings Quests games and Leisure Suit Larry. I'd also argue that Maniac Mansion and Zak McKraken flirted with comedy.

 

Looks like a fun community here!

Edited July 25, 2022 by BaronGrackle

[Jake]

I think Monkey Island 1 went harder in comedy than much of what came before — or at least Monkey Island 1 has a unique sensibility that surely felt modern and fresh at the time — but you’re right it definitely wasn’t first. Before graphic adventures there were many comedy text adventures too.
 

(and, welcome!)

[Garystu]

I got into Monkey Island with TOMI and the special editions, and played EMI when it was already thoroughly considered "the worst one" by the fanbase. I was playing the whole series, after all. Wildly out of order, but still. Gotta play em all.

 

And EMI has a lot of charm. I actually like the graphics a lot. I was a tween in the year 2000, during the late 5th gen and early 6th gen of gaming. While I didn't play EMI then, its a very nostalgic aesthetic for me. I like the anachronisms. They're funny and insightful in places. Its nostalgic - again - as its interesting to be reminded what was considered new and novel at the time. There's a lot of interesting details and nice touches. There's a lot to love in EMI.

 

But Good God have the politics in that game aged like milk. I agree with a lot of the broad political messages. Authoritarian populism is bad. Misinformation is bad. Rupert Murdoch should be crushed by a giant stone hand. But EMI is a story that can't imagine better things. That's all I'll say, and I'll leave it broad, because I don't want to discuss politics. I'm sorry for even mentioning it already lol.

 

also I love Guybrush as a malewife and EMI needs to stop making fun of him for it:(:(;( stop bull iyng leave guys ,bush alone .

Edited July 25, 2022 by Guybrush Transmasc

[Staple Remover]

So… on a scale of Slim to None, what’s the likelihood of a Demo happening? I know that demos are becoming more archaic for game development/releases, but every Monkey Island game (citation needed) had a demo in the past. It might not be too far-fetched to expect one on a MI Monday drop? 

[OzzieMonkey]

6 minutes ago, Staple Remover said:

So… on a scale of Slim to None, what’s the likelihood of a Demo happening? I know that demos are becoming more archaic for game development/releases, but every Monkey Island game (citation needed) had a demo in the past. It might not be too far-fetched to expect one on a MI Monday drop? 

I'm fine with counting the website chat with Stan as a demo, as it technically features gameplay in the form of dialog options  

[Vainamoinen]

13 minutes ago, Staple Remover said:

So… on a scale of Slim to None, what’s the likelihood of a Demo happening? I know that demos are becoming more archaic for game development/releases, but every Monkey Island game (citation needed) had a demo in the past. It might not be too far-fetched to expect one on a MI Monday drop? 

 

They likely wouldn't put it on GOG so I couldn't care le I actually have a demo of a Devolver published game installed, Terra Nil. I can't shake off the feeling that the developers put so much time and energy into the demo that they won't be able to complete the game until next year. So ... I'd rather time and energy was spent on completing Return to Monkey Island. 

 

Today, I want teh music.

🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶

(read: dededededelededededeledeledede)

[MurraySchull]

I'm predicting a dialogue tree scene today and some samples of voiceover. Maybe a new character, maybe a returning one, maybe LeChuck...

 

Thinking about Tales, I wonder how/if Winslow's absense will be explained in the game. ( Assuming he is, in fact, absent from the game and they're not just hiding him... 👀 )   

 

 

 

28 minutes ago, Staple Remover said:

So… on a scale of Slim to None, what’s the likelihood of a Demo happening? I know that demos are becoming more archaic for game development/releases, but every Monkey Island game (citation needed) had a demo in the past. It might not be too far-fetched to expect one on a MI Monday drop? 

 

Maybe we'll get a weird playable demo like with MI1, which used the games' visuals and engine, but had practically nothing to do with the games' story at all.

 

I believe MI2's demo wasn't playable (though it is possible to run some early scenes of the game included in the demo files in ScummVM apparently.)

 

CMI/EMI/Tales gave us the opening scenes as demos, I believe. Perhaps RMI will follow in that vein and give us the pre-credit carnival scenes as a demo!

Edited July 25, 2022 by fentongames

[Garystu]

21 minutes ago, fentongames said:

Thinking about Tales, I wonder how/if Winslow's absense will be explained in the game. ( Assuming he is, in fact, absent from the game and they're not just hiding him... 👀 )   

What if Winslow never comes home from Poker Night at the Inventory 😭😭

[KestrelPi]

Ah, just about 5 hours before we get a new tidbit to obsess over for a week. I do like Monkey Island Mondays.

[KestrelPi]

4 hours ago, Guybrush Transmasc said:

But Good God have the politics in that game aged like milk. I agree with a lot of the broad political messages. Authoritarian populism is bad. Misinformation is bad. Rupert Murdoch should be crushed by a giant stone hand. But EMI is a story that can't imagine better things. That's all I'll say, and I'll leave it broad, because I don't want to discuss politics. I'm sorry for even mentioning it already lol.

 

 

Haha I think you're alright saying this. I feel like EMI was very of its time in that way. In a lot of media we were seeing this attitude of 'Welp, there are all these problems with the world but heck, what can we do but laugh at them?' which now comes across as cynical as I feel more recently the trend has been to create media in which people face up to and fix long standing, generational issues. Often in an oversimplified way, but still nowadays the message does seem to be more 'improving society somewhat is possible'

 

I think you often see these ripples forming first in media aimed at kids. Sometimes people complain about adults being so into kids shows. But I don't think it's because we've become terribly infantilised, as some might claim. I think it's because of the historical moment we find ourselves in.

 

At 40 years old and going through my teens up to the year 2000 with this kind of idealised view of the world of, while the world has problems, things are getting better and they should continue that way, only to have reality hit hard in 2000 and beyond right in time for adulthood, we're desperate for any kind of media which is saying 'you can navigate through this and have a better world', and that's a very different view to the kind of cynicism we were fed on in the late 90s into the 00s, and that EMI was well versed in.

 

Given in ReMI we have an older guybrush, perhaps having a new younger generation of pirates to deal with, I hope the direction the story is going in is not going to be a 'pirating was better and more pure in the old days' sort of thing. I'm definitely fed up with stories which feature the Youngs ruining everything with their confusing ways, we get enough of that in the daily discourse without having to have it be a theme of games too. I hope the subtext of ReMI isn't 'let's get back to the good old fashioned days of pirating where things made common sense', and that's my main worry for the plot of the game at the moment based on what we've seen. For a game that's so open to trying new things, it'd be a shame if it was rooted in a 'people were better in the old days' mentality. I hope it's more optimistic, and if there's any sort of moral to the story I hope it's more like 'we need to move on, but we can't do so by making the same mistakes of the past' or something.

Edited July 25, 2022 by KestrelPi

[ThunderPeel2001]

8 hours ago, BaronGrackle said:

I'm gradually working my way through this thread... in the earlier pages, there are comments and a magazine article quote that referred to Secret if Monkey introducing COMEDY to adventure games.

 

I really enjoyed the comedy in Monkey Island, but I do want to point out that beforehand there were a few Kings Quests games and Leisure Suit Larry. I'd also argue that Maniac Mansion and Zak McKraken flirted with comedy.

 

Looks like a fun community here!

 

The point I was making is that comedy was rare. Very rare.

 

Of course there were outliers beforehand, but not everyone agreed that the smutty humour of LSL was actually... funny. The Secret of Monkey Island was mainstream and consistently funny. Maniac Mansion and Zak had funny elements and a sense of humour... but nobody goes around quoting them the way they do with MI.

 

I don't know if you've gotten around to the clips of magazine articles that back this up? It was literally a subject of conversation at the time: "Comedy in video games... can it work?"

1 hour ago, KestrelPi said:

I feel like EMI was very of its time in that way. In a lot of media we were seeing this attitude of 'Welp, there are all these problems with the world but heck, what can we do but laugh at them?' which now comes across as cynical as I feel more recently the trend has been to create media in which people face up to and fix long standing, generational issues. Often in an oversimplified way, but still nowadays the message does seem to be more 'improving society somewhat is possible'

 

Gen X vs Gen Y

 

I'm still Gen X in my heart, but I appreciate Gen Y's attempts at making things better... most of the time, anyway.

Edited July 25, 2022 by ThunderPeel2001