Return to Monkey Island 🚨GAME-WIDE🚨 Spoiler Chat

[ThunderPeel2001]

5 hours ago, Xantospoc said:

Btw, I wish to say that I think  that at least up until recently, Guybrush and LeChuck being 'brothers' had to be a real thing.

Why?
Thimbleweed Park (which I am aware is meant to be a fictional world, but still) had this excerpt

 

 

All the books in the library (apart from any used in the plot) were written by backers. That one especially so, given the number of typos and poor grammatical choices. 

[ThunderPeel2001]

6 hours ago, Guybrush Transmasc said:

The You Suck Speech

 

It didn't need to be that (true: the player tends to act like a total psychopath, and it can be funny to acknowledge that), it was just another example of how all drama between the characters is quickly resolved.

 

6 hours ago, NightWalker said:

Yeah, I think that too, that the world of the game could be set in the modern day. Maybe even the clothes that Guybrush and Elaine are wearing in the park, while Guybrush tell his stories to his son, are costumes that the park sells you (or rent you). And maybe the treasure of Mire Island is some other amusement park attraction or another game prepared by Stan, who knows.

 

This is where I think Ron (and Dave) are trying to have their cake and eat it. They deliberately try to side step any modern anachronisms in the prelude. The parent's clothes are changed from their MI2 clothes to look less era specific. Everything is deliberately murky and timeless. Is everyone wearing costumes or their real clothes? Is piece of eight a real currency in this alternate universe... or just a playful currency within the theme park?

 

I think Ron wants everyone to have their own ideas of what "reality" is.

 

Also, the big elephant is the room is: WHAT IS A FLOORING INSPECTOR? (Sorry, if this has been discussed earlier in the thread.) And (after you Google it) why is one locking up a theme park? 

 

Also, fun fact: Aside from the lookout saying it, Guybrush says he's a flooring inspector in Curse, too.

 

 

1 hour ago, roots said:

Chuckie's eyes at the end of MI2 pose a little bit of an issue,

 

Not really. In MI2 we see the couple acting as parents. In ReMI we see them tell the kids to quit bothering them. One is the fantasy, one is the reality. (Boybrush literally says, "Let's pretend this couple are our parents!" [Boybrush is a weird kid].) We just missed a line where Chuckie says, "Let's pretend my eyes are glowing and I have secret voodoo powers!"

 

A potential issue is that Guybrush has a scrapbook of souvenirs... I haven't looked through all the pages with the mental lens of "is this all fantasy?", but is there anything in that scrapbook that couldn't have been a prop (or theme park bought souvenir)?

Edited September 28, 2022 by ThunderPeel2001

[KestrelPi]

1 hour ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

 

Not really. In MI2 we see the couple acting as parents. In ReMI we see them tell the kids to quit bothering them. One is the fantasy, one is the reality. (Boybrush literally says, "Let's pretend this couple are our parents!" [Boybrush is a weird kid].) We just missed a line where Chuckie says, "Let's pretend my eyes are glowing and I have secret voodoo powers!"

 

[BaronGrackle]

2 hours ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

The parent's clothes are changed from their MI2 clothes to look less era specific.

Oh, I need to go back to MI2 and check that out again...

[roots]

4 hours ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

 

Not really. In MI2 we see the couple acting as parents. In ReMI we see them tell the kids to quit bothering them. One is the fantasy, one is the reality. (Boybrush literally says, "Let's pretend this couple are our parents!" [Boybrush is a weird kid].) We just missed a line where Chuckie says, "Let's pretend my eyes are glowing and I have secret voodoo powers!"

 

A potential issue is that Guybrush has a scrapbook of souvenirs... I haven't looked through all the pages with the mental lens of "is this all fantasy?", but is there anything in that scrapbook that couldn't have been a prop (or theme park bought souvenir)?

 

I think you misinterpreted my post. The reason I say the eyes pose a problem is because I was spinning my own narrative that the park we see in RTMI is the product of a curse by Big Whoop itself, rather than going down a path of assuming that LeChuck's own curse attempt was successful. Meaning that both Guybrush and LeChuck are trapped by it, and are equally helpless.

 

It was a exercise to brainstorm a take on events that fits RTMI in the tone of MI2's ending, regardless of RTMI clearly taking it's own direction.

[Doom Saber]

5 hours ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

Also, the big elephant is the room is: WHAT IS A FLOORING INSPECTOR? (Sorry, if this has been discussed earlier in the thread.) And (after you Google it) why is one locking up a theme park? 

 

Also, fun fact: Aside from the lookout saying it, Guybrush says he's a flooring inspector in Curse, too.

 

It is what it pretty much straightforward - a flooring inspector inspects the flooring to determine the cause of any carpet or flooring issues. 

 

This website explains what are flooring inspectors and what they do:

 

https://www.cfiu.org/

 

I imagine Guybrush not actually working at the park, but goes there from time to time - in one of the post-credits ending, we see a hand handing out two adult tickets (likely for Guybrush and Elaine) and one children ticket (for Boybrush.)

[ThunderPeel2001]

3 hours ago, BaronGrackle said:

Oh, I need to go back to MI2 and check that out again...

 

Ah, don't bother. I think I'm completely wrong about that. And I totally missed these kids in the background (posted by Low Level). My whole idea that the Prelude isn't modern, but "timeless" is blown out the water by the presence of these three...

 

[Doom Saber]

On face value, I feel that Stan simply gave Guybrush the keys to lock up because he knows him, he was late for a meeting, and he really didn't care what happens after closing time.

 

My headcanon is that Elaine is or was an employee of Stan's, and can easily return the keys.

[ThunderPeel2001]

My main point is: Why did Stan give him the keys to lock up? Like an employee. Is it just because he's an ubernerd fan? Stan knows him and trusts him, and let's him hang around with his wife when everyone else has gone home. This couple who take the time to dress up in pirate clothes when they go to this theme park. (I'd be concerned what was going on after he left, if I was Stan.)

 

Edit: It seems you replied to this before I'd even written it

Edited September 28, 2022 by ThunderPeel2001

[ThunderPeel2001]

Anyone got any idea why Madison and co would try and capture LeChuck with root beer? And why didn't Guybrush point out that he'd already tried it and it only works on ghosts?

[Remi]

35 minutes ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

Anyone got any idea why Madison and co would try and capture LeChuck with root beer? And why didn't Guybrush point out that he'd already tried it and it only works on ghosts?

 

I think your second question answers the first -- they, like Guybrush once did, thought they could use root beer to get rid of him even when he's not a ghost.

 

As for not pointing it out, I don't think Guybrush wanted to help them more than strictly necessary.

[ThunderPeel2001]

Playing it through again... I can't believe I never noticed that the background in the Prelude changes. I was so focussed on the characters that I didn't notice the background.

 

Kind of like this thing:

 

 

[demone]

Root beer I think would still have some affect on LeChuck, similar to Tales. Guybrush was meant to stab LeChuck with a cutlass soaked in root beer to injure his spiritual portion. 

 

I imagined that once LeChuck was captured and soaked with root beer, they would collectively stab him multiple times to weaken him. Even if he's a zombie, there is still some spirit in him from his resurrection. 

[LuigiHann]

I do feel like every game post-Curse treats LeChuck as some sort of Ghost Zombie Demon Pirate, so the best methods for dealing with him are anyone's guess at this point.

 

And yeah, the intro background change is fantastic, I didn't notice when it happened, but just gradually noticed that it didn't look like I remembered

[OzzieMonkey]

So I've played the game a second time and I've been stewing on the ending some more, and I think I can pinpoint why I'm finding it difficult to accept. I'm really struggling with the idea that every character we've met, except for Stan and Elaine, are just animatronics. Especially LeChuck. I can't help but feel like the magic has been sucked out of the world by the end, because all of Guybrush's battles with his supposed arch-nemesis feel meaningless if he's not even a real person. I think where I'm feeling the most frustrated is that while the ending seems to be Ron giving everyone whatever interpretation they want, the version where the entire fantasy is completely real is framed as the player being in denial rather than a valid way of seeing things. Idk...could the theme park be a magic place where everything comes to life but the secret turns everyone back into their animatronic forms? That's a theory that could work I suppose. Both Lila and LeChuck who are part of the attraction transform when they enter the door under the monkey head, but because Guybrush lives outside of it he doesnt? I feel like I have to do a lot of mental gymnastics to maintain the illusion for myself, and it kinda bums me out. The other one I've heard is that the minute Guybrush steps through the door it's his older self making stuff up for his son at the end to teach him a lesson about building up mysteries, but then what REALLY happened?  I really hope someone can help me find what I'm missing because I've seen such an outpouring of joy about the ending and I just felt like a kid who's just been told Santa Claus isn't real.

Edited September 28, 2022 by OzzieMonkey

[demone]

1 hour ago, OzzieMonkey said:

So I've played the game a second time and I've been stewing on the ending some more, and I think I can pinpoint why I'm finding it difficult to accept. I'm really struggling with the idea that every character we've met, except for Stan and Elaine, are just animatronics. Especially LeChuck. I can't help but feel like the magic has been sucked out of the world by the end, because all of Guybrush's battles with his supposed arch-nemesis feel meaningless if he's not even a real person. I think where I'm feeling the most frustrated is that while the ending seems to be Ron giving everyone whatever interpretation they want, the version where the entire fantasy is completely real is framed as the player being in denial rather than a valid way of seeing things. Idk...could the theme park be a magic place where everything comes to life but the secret turns everyone back into their animatronic forms? That's a theory that could work I suppose. Both Lila and LeChuck who are part of the attraction transform when they enter the door under the monkey head, but because Guybrush lives outside of it he doesnt? I feel like I have to do a lot of mental gymnastics to maintain the illusion for myself, and it kinda bums me out. The other one I've heard is that the minute Guybrush steps through the door it's his older self making stuff up for his son at the end to teach him a lesson about building up mysteries, but then what REALLY happened?  I really hope someone can help me find what I'm missing because I've seen such an outpouring of joy about the ending and I just felt like a kid who's just been told Santa Claus isn't real.

I mean honestly, I don't think anyone here will be able to say something that will serve as an "ah-ha" moment. I could be wrong of course, but I don't think it's possible to convince someone else that the ending is good; it has to come from that person's experiences and thoughts.

 

I think some the epilogues paint a clearer picture on what happened to certain characters. I feel that there is enough evidence to support multiple interpretations. I myself am operating under the interpretation that LeChuck and all the other characters are not simply animatronics and I don't feel Ron puts a lot of pressure on that not being true. 

 

Yes, on the surface, it seems that it's being heavily pushed as fantasy, but again, many of the epilogues (along with the fact that Elaine says the story gets crazier each time Guybrush tells it) makes it clear to me that Ron doesn't want to dictate it to the player. 

 

It's an ending not for everyone, and I wish I could say something that can make it clear why I found such satisfaction from it, despite 10 initial minutes of emptiness, but I don't think words alone will do that. I made many posts about it within the last week or so, but I'm not sure if that makes it clear enough. Someone else here could perhaps make a better case than I. 

 

Edited September 28, 2022 by demone

[roots]

8 minutes ago, OzzieMonkey said:

I think where I'm feeling the most frustrated is that while the ending seems to be Ron giving everyone whatever interpretation they want, the version where the entire fantasy is completely real is framed as the player being in denial rather than a valid way of seeing things.

 

It's the intrinsic flaw of endings that are intentionally laid open in this manner. From a dev perspective I can see how it might seem like the benevolent move; you're graciously allowing the people to make up their own mind on what happens. But I think the reality of such an approach is it just leaves people feeling unfulfilled. People want to see the author's take on the story, and RTMI robs the player of that due to how insubstantial it is in terms of conventional narrative.

[OzzieMonkey]

3 minutes ago, roots said:

 

It's the intrinsic flaw of endings that are intentionally laid open in this manner. From a dev perspective I can see how it might seem like the benevolent move; you're graciously allowing the people to make up their own mind on what happens. But I think the reality of such an approach is it just leaves people feeling unfulfilled. People want to see the author's take on the story, and RTMI robs the player of that due to how insubstantial it is in terms of conventional narrative.

If I can get slightly personal for a minute, I have severe anxiety and am prone to very intense depression, and it tends to make me value clarity a LOT, because otherwise I tend to overthink, catastrophize, and generally think the worst of any situation. Because there are so many ways to intepret things, it overloads my brain a bit and picking one version never quite sits comfortably for me because it always feels like I'm denying something. Man, I'm really thinking too deeply about a videogame, I suppose it's good that it is so thought-provoking, though it's personally not in a way that feels right for me. Maybe I just need to give it time. I think I'm also in the minority of really hoping this isn't the last game, just so I can close out the series on a higher note for my own preferences. 

[ThunderPeel2001]

8 minutes ago, OzzieMonkey said:

If I can get slightly personal for a minute, I have severe anxiety and am prone to very intense depression, and it tends to make me value clarity a LOT, because otherwise I tend to overthink, catastrophize, and generally think the worst of any situation. Because there are so many ways to intepret things, it overloads my brain a bit and picking one version never quite sits comfortably for me because it always feels like I'm denying something. Man, I'm really thinking too deeply about a videogame, I suppose it's good that it is so thought-provoking, though it's personally not in a way that feels right for me. Maybe I just need to give it time. I think I'm also in the minority of really hoping this isn't the last game, just so I can close out the series on a higher note for my own preferences. 

 

I sympathise with everything you'd said about the ending, but I'd suggest forcing yourself to focus on other stuff while you process it. Sitting and stewing over something that's made you unhappy isn't going to help... you brain will just (un)helpfully give you other things that make you unhappy to think about.

 

I used to suffer a lot with anxiety and depression, this book changed all that for me (although I should only recommend it with caveats, because you can definitely overdo it and have issues in the other direction, too). Either way, here it is. 

[roots]

16 minutes ago, OzzieMonkey said:

If I can get slightly personal for a minute, I have severe anxiety and am prone to very intense depression, and it tends to make me value clarity a LOT, because otherwise I tend to overthink, catastrophize, and generally think the worst of any situation. Because there are so many ways to intepret things, it overloads my brain a bit and picking one version never quite sits comfortably for me because it always feels like I'm denying something. Man, I'm really thinking too deeply about a videogame, I suppose it's good that it is so thought-provoking, though it's personally not in a way that feels right for me. Maybe I just need to give it time. I think I'm also in the minority of really hoping this isn't the last game, just so I can close out the series on a higher note for my own preferences. 

 

As someone that also struggles with severe anxiety I fully appreciate how you feel. I spend a lot of time thinking about games because my issues constrain my life, and thinking about games is preferable to the alternative. In part it is probably a non-trivial portion of why RTMI frustrates me so much.

Edited September 28, 2022 by roots

[JacquesSparkyTail]

I like how in escape you give carla and otis cushy government jobs and carla used that to work her way up to govenor while otis is literally exactly where we found him at the beginning of secret. This makes perfect sense for both of these characters to me. Carla is a driven hard working person who will make the most out of what she’s given and otis will always end up being the lazy cowardly thief in a jail cell no matter what opportunities come his way. 

[BaronGrackle]

4 hours ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

Playing it through again... I can't believe I never noticed that the background in the Prelude changes. I was so focussed on the characters that I didn't notice the background.

 

Kind of like this thing:

 

 

I missed it too, before reading about it online.
 

(But the nature of the outhouse got my suspicion tingling.)

Edited September 28, 2022 by BaronGrackle

[KestrelPi]

2 hours ago, roots said:

 

It's the intrinsic flaw of endings that are intentionally laid open in this manner. From a dev perspective I can see how it might seem like the benevolent move; you're graciously allowing the people to make up their own mind on what happens. But I think the reality of such an approach is it just leaves people feeling unfulfilled. People want to see the author's take on the story, and RTMI robs the player of that due to how insubstantial it is in terms of conventional narrative.

 

The thing is, I don't feel like I've been 'robbed' of the author's take. In fact, I'd go as far as saying that this game, more than any previous Monkey Island game, takes an authorial stance on what Monkey Island is about. That's to say it actually takes some of the vague sense of mystery that we've always talked about the series having and makes comment on it. It doesn't resolve all the mystery, and in fact one of the things that it says very clearly is that tying everything up neatly isn't its goal.

 

It also leaves enough open that yes, it is possible for the player to make up their own mind about what they believe about certain events. But... where I think I differ is that... while all that stuff is super interesting to talk and wonder about (look at all the discussion it's already generated) I don't think any of that stuff is at the emotional core of the game, and the emotional arc of the game is to me what provides the closure.

We start with Boybrush playing around and messing with the ending of Guybrush's Monkey 2 story. Boybrush points out that there seems to be a lot unresolved in his stories, and so he starts to tell a new one. And as he tells it, the theme of storytelling, and what's important to a story, what makes a mystery fun, comes up over and over again. At various points during the story, Boybrush interrupts to remind us that this is a story we're being told, and also sometimes to criticise the way that Guybrush is telling it.

 

Over and over again we are warned by different characters in different ways that we might not feel satisfied with the answers when we get to it but we press on, and just when we're about to confront LeChuck once and for all... the game goes all Monkey 2 on us and we're faced with a strange, hard-to-intepret ending.

 

This doesn't satisfy Boybrush at all, and we probably feel a little similar as well, at least the first time through, but Guybrush isn't just going to hand Boybrush a satisfying answer. Or if he does ('rubies and gold!') it's pretty clear to the player that that's the most boring possible choice and probably untrue.

 

I think he wants to teach his child to delight in the mystery of things. To enjoy the not knowing, and the speculating and the chase, more than the prize at the end of it. That, I think, is the emotional core of the story, that's the journey that we go on that has a satisfying resolution, and that was what was playing through my mind as the final shot before the credits lingered.

[KestrelPi]

(as an aside I will confess that in my head I thought it was a coin flip whether, as guybrush sat on the bench on his own that we'd get catapulted back into the moment of confrontation with LeChuck... sort of get to enjoy it as a private moment between us and Guybrush without Boybrush there to hear it. On balance I'm glad they showed restraint and didn't try to have it both ways, but if it pleases you, one can imagine guybrush sitting there thinking about what "really" happened past that door)

[roots]

6 minutes ago, KestrelPi said:

The thing is, I don't feel like I've been 'robbed' of the author's take. In fact, I'd go as far as saying that this game, more than any previous Monkey Island game, takes an authorial stance on what Monkey Island is about. That's to say it actually takes some of the vague sense of mystery that we've always talked about the series having and makes comment on it. It doesn't resolve all the mystery, and in fact one of the things that it says very clearly is that tying everything up neatly isn't its goal.

 

That is my problem. RTMI is a meta-commentary on the franchise, to the extent it leaves the conventional narrative as little more than a vehicle to carry said meta-commentary.

 

My issue isn't that the "the secret" was underwhelming, or that it doesn't tie up every loose end. I'm well aware of the value of maintaining some basic level of mystery within a setting. My issue is that there is no journey.

 

What I wanted from RTMI was more Monkey Island. Not commentary on Monkey Island.