Spoiler-Filled Interview with Ron Gilbert and Laura Cress

[demone]

Earlier today, Laura Cress interviewed Ron on Return to Monkey Island and got into full spoilers, specifically the opening and ending: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHmnvnfhHjw&ab_channel=Cressup

 

Ron talks openly about the Secret and what has been in his mind for the last 30 years. It feels so good that Ron is finally free to talk openly about this topic after so many years and to hear his full thoughts. He also clarifies a lot of other aspects as well, such as his thoughts on the series continuing.
 

Edited October 11, 2022 by demone

[madmardi]

Okay, now I want to know which of the ten endings Ron (and Dave!) thinks is 'cannon'!

 

Not that it matters or anything...

Edited October 10, 2022 by madmardi

[Knight Owl]

Wow, hearing ron talking openly about the secret and how it changed/stayed the same from the original game is so, incredibly satisfying. 

 

Like, I know that an interpretation of the game's themes is that, whatever the secret was, it was going to be unsatisfying. But for me, hearing this, it's just so nice to finally get some closure.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Knight Owl

[Knight Owl]

32 minutes ago, madmardi said:

Okay, now I want to know which of the ten endings Ron (and Dave!) thinks is 'cannon'!

 

Not that it matters or anything...

Yeahh, honestly! Like I'm genuinely just curious, and I don't think I would take that as being canon, seeing as the game clearly treats all endings as equally "canon," and that Ron says Dave and the other team members likely have their own choice for which ending is canon. I get what Ron is saying, that whichever one he says is right is what the internet is going to latch on to, but I *kinda* think there's a way to talk about it without that happening. Idk.

 

That said, if I had to guess which ending I think Ron thinks is canon, just based on process of elimination, I feel like it's gotta be the theme park ending, just because Ron says in the interview that the secret was originally envisioned to be that guybrush was really in an amusement park the whole time. I think maybe part of the reason he doesn't want to say it is that he knows it's not the direction the series has gone in over the years, and wants to respect that. 

 

I know it doesn't matter but I really dislike speculating about what *Ron's real thoughts* are. I just wanna know, haha, I don't think it would ruin anything for me. It's definitely a little horrifying that Ron seemingly plans to take this one to the grave. Haha, I don't really care. I don't care. I don't.

 

 

I do not.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Knight Owl

[Garystu]

41 minutes ago, madmardi said:

Okay, now I want to know which of the ten endings Ron (and Dave!) thinks is 'cannon'!

 

Not that it matters or anything...

 

You could say its a secret... a secret of monkey Island!

[Jake]

I’m going to guess they don’t think any one of them is “canon.” I know that’s annoying, but I strongly guess it is true. This game was very deliberately made, and I can’t imagine they went into the end thinking “okay we’ll make the real one, and then six other ones that don’t really sound in our eyes.”

 

My own personal example here, which is maybe relevant maybe not: I worked on The Walking Dead season one at Telltale, it was one of the few games I’ve worked on that had multiple things that could happen at the end. Similar to Return, they are narratively contradictory but thematically all on the same wavelength. I know how they work under the hood – what triggers them, what paths players had to walk and what choices they had to make to get the different endings – and I don’t consider one any more valid than another. It just wasn’t how we thought about the game or story when designing at. 

[Knight Owl]

3 minutes ago, Jake said:

I’m going to guess they don’t think any one of them is “canon.” I know that’s annoying, but I strongly guess it is true. This game was very deliberately made, and I can’t imagine they went into the end thinking “okay we’ll make the real one, and then six other ones that don’t really sound in our eyes.”

 

Agreed. Which is why it's such a tease to go and say "One of these endings is my personal interpretation of what really happened." (paraphrasing) Why would he do this to us!! 😛

Edited October 10, 2022 by Knight Owl

[Knight Owl]

Now I'm thinking that maybe Ron just in the moment said "I have my own interpretation of what is canon" just in the sense that the game invites everyone to decide what's canon for themselves, but then realized the implications of what he just said and backtracked. Haha

[demone]

What I loved about the interview in particular is how Ron really stuck to his guns regarding the Secret. He didn't say, "Well, the Secret is that it's truly up to interpretation but you can find evidence to support....," or anything like that. He specifically brought it up right as the ending began and confirmed that this is in fact the Secret people have been wanting to know for decades and what he had originally envisioned. I think the game makes that clear, especially that plaque at the end, but this was the last bit of closure I needed. 

 

This also lines up quite well with comments Ron has said throughout the years in various interviews. The original concept of the first game became too big and ambitious to reveal everything within one game, so they created a series around it to segment some of its themes and aspects. Ron didn't have all the specifics of the journey mapped, but the Secret was always there in his mind. It's great.

 

My take on the multiple endings is this - had the third game by Ron came out relatively shortly after MI2, the ending would've probably be much more streamlined with one definitive one, perhaps with some wriggle room on certain things but not to the degree that we got here. But with 30 years of this series becoming so much more for so many more people and Ron and Dave really honing their craft as designers and writers, they wanted to be definitive with the Secret, but also allow multiple interpretations for many other aspects of the game with the inclusion of 10 endings.

 

I'm actually very happy and appreciative that he didn't reveal which one he views as canon. If I had to guess, it would be the one that implies that Guybrush takes his family to the amusement park to finally share the experiences with his son and come full circle.

 

Edited October 10, 2022 by demone

[Knight Owl]

17 minutes ago, demone said:

What I loved about the interview in particular is how Ron really stuck to his guns regarding the Secret. He didn't say, "Well, the Secret is that it's truly up to interpretation but you can find evidence to support....," or anything like that. He specifically brought it up right as the ending began and confirmed that this is in fact the Secret people have been wanting to know for decades and what he had originally envisioned. I think the game makes that clear, especially that plague at the end, but this was the last bit of closure I needed. 

 

This also lines up quite well with comments Ron has said throughout the years in various interviews. The original concept of the first game became too big and ambitious to reveal everything within one game, so they created a series around it to segment some of its themes and aspects. Ron didn't have all the specifics of the journey mapped, but the Secret was always there in his mind. It's great.

 

My take on the multiple endings is this - had the third game by Ron came out relatively shortly after MI2, the ending would've probably be much more streamlined with one definitive one, perhaps with some wriggle room on certain things but not to the degree that we got here. But with 30 years of this series becoming so much more for so many more people and Ron and Dave really honing their craft as designers and writers, they wanted to be definitive with the Secret, but also allow multiple interpretations for many other aspects of the game with the inclusion of 10 endings.

 

I'm actually very happy and appreciative that he didn't reveal which one he views as canon. If I had to guess, it would be the one that implies that Guybrush takes his family to the amusement park to finally share the experiences with his son and come full circle.
 

Well said

[Laserschwert]

47 minutes ago, demone said:

confirmed that this is in fact the Secret people have been wanting to know for decades and what he had originally envisioned

To me, this doesn't add up, though, because the amusement park "secret" has been revealed at the end of MI2. Why bother all these years to keep shy about telling what the secret is, when he's already revealed it?

[ThunderPeel2001]

17 minutes ago, Laserschwert said:

To me, this doesn't add up, though, because the amusement park "secret" has been revealed at the end of MI2. Why bother all these years to keep shy about telling what the secret is, when he's already revealed it?

 

Well MI2 was sort of shy about it, if you think about it. It revealed the theme park, but added the twist that it was a spell. I asked Ron and Dave specifically if MI2 was always the ending on Twitter, and they both said no. And Ron has alway thought of MI2's ending as something else. (As he describes in his PAX talk.) I think MI2's ending took an ingredient of the original "secret", but turned it into something different (although to us, as outsiders, it feels very similar).

 

Until the game literally said, "yes, you're in a theme park", the secret wasn't fully revealed.

 

My question for Ron would be: What was your explanation for having Guybrush turn into a child when you wrote MI2? Did you have one, or was it just a quirky way to end the game?

[demone]

10 minutes ago, Laserschwert said:

To me, this doesn't add up, though, because the amusement park "secret" has been revealed at the end of MI2. Why bother all these years to keep shy about telling what the secret is, when he's already revealed it?

I don't think that anything was really revealed at the end of the second game. The second games final portion was very surreal and weird. Guybrush finding his dead parents, LeChuck saying he's his brother and suddenly being with a family. It obviously gave people more than enough to speculate, but I think there was a lot more Ron wanted to say about the reality. 

 

That ending was more of a "WTF did I just watch." This one was more confirmation with the added layer that there is another story going with how Guybrush retells these stories and how his son interprets them. 

 

The secret was only one aspect of this game. There was so much more going on it is themes. 

[BaronGrackle]

7 hours ago, madmardi said:

Okay, now I want to know which of the ten endings Ron (and Dave!) thinks is 'cannon'!

 

Not that it matters or anything...

I feel like none of these post-credit scenes are mutually exclusive.

 

I'm sort of falling in love with the rock and the banana. It reminds me of Herman's primitive art in SMI, which has the same shape and looked precarious, but was actually pretty sturdy. It was also the vehicle through which Guybrush could choose to sink his ship or not. And the rock and banana further makes me think of SMI Part 3 on Monkey Island itself, where banana and rock are both inventory items, which makes me remember the mystique of being on that island originally.

 

I have no idea if Ron and Dave intended that with the rock and banana, or if it was a throwaway. But I am confident that cutscene can co-exist with any of the other scenes.

 

Unrelated edit: Ron has said his favorite playthrough of The Cave is the Hillbilly, the Twins, the Scientist. I'm not surprised. The Hillbilly holds his breath indefinitely, and his level is a carnival of cardboard-cutout people. 

Edited October 10, 2022 by BaronGrackle

[ThunderPeel2001]

1 hour ago, BaronGrackle said:

I feel like none of these post-credit scenes are mutually exclusive.

 

Not sure I agree with that exactly  Although I guess it depends if you're seeing them as reality or imaginings. 

 

Have you finished the game, then?

[demone]

I'm starting to even take the ending of the second game was Guybrush accidently finding the maintenance tunnels of the park and his imagination/reality comes crashing down as a result. He realizes that it's just a park, but to sustain the illusion, he comes up with the plot points of the park being one of LeChuck's schemes to build up his undead army, with himself being under a hex of LeChuck's creation, and the tunnels connecting islands together.

 

Then his son takes it further and puts another spin on it upon his reimagining of it with his friend Chuckie. At the end of Return, Guybrush was so entrenched in his imagination, it took him a few minutes to realize that he is still just in a park, even if it's the umpteenth time he's been there.

 

Perhaps even Guybrush and Elaine got married there if that's where they met and he proposed to her. It would be a modernized concept since more and more couples are getting married at places that mean something significant to them as a couple and not the typical venues.

 

The dream of Guybrush's parents from the second game are indicative of his feeling of abandonment and loneliness. They left him when he needed them the most and was raised in an orphanage. The park was an escape from these feelings for him, but they are still there, deep down. Those feelings come up in the dream and at the end, when he finds their skeletons. They are gone/dead in his life, perhaps even literally.

 

So now, he wants to share those tales with his son and experience the park together as a family. Maybe Guybrush's thoughts at the end with just him on the bench was him thinking "Perhaps it's time I take Boybrush to the actual amusement park."

 

The Secret and Big Whoop are all just in-depth carnival games. The prize for Big Whoop was an E-Ticket and the Secret was a t-shirt. Even the Voodoo Lady's agenda from Tales could be Guybrush's take of her being a prominent amusement park worker who creates the scenarios and stories of the park and the battles with LeChuck. 

 

Edited October 10, 2022 by demone

[Gins]

Any of you guys have an idea what the undiscovered ending variant might be that Ron is talking about? Do you think there's truly something we've not yet collectively found in this game?

[BaronGrackle]

5 hours ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

 

Not sure I agree with that exactly  Although I guess it depends if you're seeing them as reality or imaginings. 

 

Have you finished the game, then?

I finished the game still feeling that endings like "Chucky and Dee chase each other for the key" could co-exist with endings like "LeChuck and Lilah battle each other for the chest", both of them real and fictional at the same time.

 

Then I watched this interview, and Ron says he thinks one of the endings is more true than the others... and he goes on to say that Dave probably thinks a different ending is more true. Heh.

 

Around the 52 minute mark, Ron says he originally conceived that a villainous amusement park owner had Guybrush trapped, and Guybrush had to figure out he was trapped in the amusement park to defeat the owner and triumph. And eventually this park owner evolved into what became LeChuck. 

I do wonder if that was conceived before or after the concept of Governor Fat sending pirates to discover the Treasure of Monkey Island, which turned out to be not a monetary treasure but a crack in the earth into "hell", which turned the living into the undead. https://archive.org/details/ComputerGameDesignDOcuments/Aric Wilmunder - 1990 Mutiny on Monkey Island/mode/2up

 

To me? That's the most compelling Secret of Monkey Island. It's harder for me to believe that Herman and his Captain sailed to discover that the world was an amusement park, or that LeChuck sailed to learn the world was an amusement park and coincidentially became a Ghost Pirate while the pirates of Mêlée Island (i.e. Estevan) believed he had successfully learned the Secret when he actually hadn't.

 

Mutiny on Monkey Island, p. 3, is the secret I learned and choose to believe. In MI6, I think the closest thing to it is "There's not just one Secret", with the banana and the rock. The banana and the rock take me back to 1990.

[demone]

3 hours ago, BaronGrackle said:

I finished the game still feeling that endings like "Chucky and Dee chase each other for the key" could co-exist with endings like "LeChuck and Lilah battle each other for the chest", both of them real and fictional at the same time.

 

Then I watched this interview, and Ron says he thinks one of the endings is more true than the others... and he goes on to say that Dave probably thinks a different ending is more true. Heh.

 

Around the 52 minute mark, Ron says he originally conceived that a villainous amusement park owner had Guybrush trapped, and Guybrush had to figure out he was trapped in the amusement park to defeat the owner and triumph. And eventually this park owner evolved into what became LeChuck. 

I do wonder if that was conceived before or after the concept of Governor Fat sending pirates to discover the Treasure of Monkey Island, which turned out to be not a monetary treasure but a crack in the earth into "hell", which turned the living into the undead. https://archive.org/details/ComputerGameDesignDOcuments/Aric Wilmunder - 1990 Mutiny on Monkey Island/mode/2up

 

To me? That's the most compelling Secret of Monkey Island. It's harder for me to believe that Herman and his Captain sailed to discover that the world was an amusement park, or that LeChuck sailed to learn the world was an amusement park and coincidentially became a Ghost Pirate while the pirates of Mêlée Island (i.e. Estevan) believed he had successfully learned the Secret when he actually hadn't.

 

Mutiny on Monkey Island, p. 3, is the secret I learned and choose to believe. In MI6, I think the closest thing to it is "There's not just one Secret", with the banana and the rock. The banana and the rock take me back to 1990.

Well said. To add to this, I think the use of the word "Original" in the plaque at the end of the game when referencing the Secret was extremely purposeful by Ron and Dave. The amusement park was indeed the original Secret conceived during the development of the first game, but that doesn't mean it's the sole secret of Monkey Island.

 

The series has become something so much more than Ron, Dave, and Tim ever intended and so much of the series was born from multiple other teams with their own takes and interpretations. In many way, the multiple endings capture that perfectly. Ron and Dave do a great job in paying homage to all the great work other teams have done on this series. Return, beyond being just a great game, is also a very humble one too in many ways in how it treated the canon.  
 

Edited October 11, 2022 by demone

[Garystu]

To discuss parts of the interview that weren't about the ending:

 

I'm glad the interview clarified the rumours regarding Cogg and Terror Islands, and cut content.

 

Having a Myst-like area in MI would have been an interesting choice, but I'm glad the team spent their focus on polishing things that mattered more. I understand their decision.

 

I really want to see all the early art. Somebody leak an early build please.

 

I never felt like Terror Island had cut content? It always felt like it was intentionally a self contained puzzle in a bottle, a deliberate break from the more elaborate island-hopping puzzles of that chapter. But I know those rumours have been spreading, so its good to see them cleared up.

 

Elaine game... I would really love an Elaine game. I think its good to see the team worry about how to communicate her personality though gameplay and puzzle solving. But I do hope it's not leading to choice paralysis. We've never had access to Elaine's inner thoughts before, and I'd buy most thought processes for Elaine so long as they were consistent with how she has appeared on the outside. She could be a huge incompetent dork everywoman in her inner monologue, and I wouldn't mind, as long as her actions insofar as others perceive her were consistent with past depictions. But I think its great how seriously Ron takes getting her right, and I wouldn't want him to take it less seriously either. I also want to see Guybrush from the outside, how does he look when we're not playing as him? RTMI gave us a little peek in cutscenes, but not really. However, if Elaine Game never happens, I suppose I'll settle for Guybrush Kart. I'm just teasing myself and shouldn't be expecting anything actually and I know that, but

[demone]

29 minutes ago, Garystu said:

I never felt like Terror Island had cut content? It always felt like it was intentionally a self contained puzzle in a bottle, a deliberate break from the more elaborate island-hopping puzzles of that chapter. But I know those rumours have been spreading, so its good to see them cleared up.

 

While I myself never thought Terror Island had cut content, I can definitely understand why others did. There are several areas of the island where there are no puzzles, no objects to pick up, just things in the environment that Guybrush can comment on. For me, those barren areas just added to the general eerie feeling of the island, but I can also see why others would think that perhaps those areas were originally meant to have puzzles and/or something else.

Then again, perhaps there are some details not picked up on yet. I did catch another mushroom reference in one spot.
 

Edited October 11, 2022 by demone

[Sadbrush]

Just finished the video. It wasn't as revelatory as I had hoped, although it was nice to hear him speaking openly (mostly) about certain aspects for a change. Here are some disparate thoughts I had while watching.

• We finally got confirmation that Boybrush was an idea invented for this new game and not the original intention in MI2. 
• I'm curious about the "hidden" things that Ron says people haven't found yet. I wonder how on top of the discussion he is (has he browsed these forums?). He also seemed hesitant to confirm whether certain endings hadn't been found yet, although he did eventually confirm that.
• Interesting that Elaine and Guybrush were originally meant to be split up at the beginning. I get that the idea was abandoned early on, although it was still my first impression from playing it.
• I still have so many questions about the early intentions between Guybrush and Elaine and the ending of MI2. Was LeChuck based on any character in Guybrush's real life? Was Stan always the proprietor of the park in SoMI? I'm very interested in how ideas have changed and evolved over the course of all three games. 
• I still don't understand why Ron says that the secret is that it was an amusement park and he's been waiting to tell us that for 30 years. And yet, the ending of MI2 made that very clear.
• Interesting that he has one true "canon" ending in mind. We can definitely eliminate the drowning death and "I don't believe" endings, I think. It honestly wouldn't take anything away for me either way.
• The scrapbook note wouldn't have worked in the chest, although it's an interesting idea. I really like that it was an extra feature that came after I thought I had already finished the game. If I had read it in-game, it definitely would have taken me out of it and changed my initial interpretation.
• I'm glad Ron agrees it was a melancholic ending, although obviously that's a bit different from a developer point of view who's worked on this for 30+ years. As he says, he feels like he's Guybrush sitting on the bench with his thoughts at the end.
• A standalone Elaine game would be great, but it definitely wouldn't be as silly as Guybrush's adventures. There would be a much more logical and pragmatic progression to puzzles, but I still think it would work. Sounds like it's his next "dream" project anyway. 

[BaronGrackle]

I think it's funny that Guybrush has become defined by his quirky ability to solve adventure game puzzles, while in the universes of Maniac Mansion or Thimbleweed Park, that's just breathing. 😆

[Gins]

55 minutes ago, Sadbrush said:

Was LeChuck based on any character in Guybrush's real life? Was Stan always the proprietor of the park in SoMI?

In the interview Ron says, if I understood it right, originally it wasn't Stan but another character, and that proprietor character was actually the antagonist, who eventually morphed into the current antagonist, LeChuck.

[BillyCheers]

Very cool interview from her once again!

 

My thoughts:
- The long visit from Stan is starting to have an impact on Ron's style to dress.
- I like that Ron cleared up about the ending and the amusement park thing (even though I was pretty sure that's exactly what happened).
- I like even better that Ron told a bit about how the beginning of ReMI came about. Since its release, I had always wondered if he had such a resolution in mind all along (the ending being subtly altered and re-enacted by child-Guybrush or other children) , since it was so important for him to start with it. I'm quite surprised that the resolution only came about in the process of ReMI and I think it's beautiful! It shows how open Ron is to "dead ends" and how optimistic he is that a good resolution will eventually come (good lesson for me). AND it shows that the two of them are just very good storytellers.
- What I like best is how Ron (once again) raves about his team and especially about Dave. You can really tell that this game (and probably the others as well) is very much about teamwork for him. Till ReMI, I often had the impression that he was very stubborn with his ideas and their execution. But that doesn't seem to be the case at all.

- The original original Monkey Island (realization of being in an amusement park and a showdown with the proprietor would have been veeeery different - and interesting! But I'm glad they went with another direction.