Metallus Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 I am an American, and I can't say that I'm too proud of this fact, especially in recent months. Those elected to represent have instead voted to give the president the power to go to war on Iraq nearly unanimously, merely to save political face. I feel betrayed and helpless. I will not support this war, but I don't know what I can or should do to oppose it. Now before any of my more "patriotic" Archie-Bunkerish brethren decide to flame me, I will make it quite clear that I am no commie, pinko, faggot, or whatever other entirely new and creative label you've decided to pin on me for feeling the way I do. I'd like to believe I've got the right to be a pacifist, although I'm not sure that's ever been true in the United States. Does anyone else (from the US or not) feel similarly? If not, I'd love to discuss your differing views without some of the crudeness we see at other places. I'd like to know what British people think of the PM's undying support of Mr. Bush Jr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mercatfat Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 Move to Seattle and protest at every availible opportunity. Listen to Rage Against the Machine whenever you can't march. In short: you can't do much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 I think America in general is a very frightening place to live right now, and those baby boomer Republicans lulled into their wonderful sense of complacency are doing nothing about the crap that their offspring are going to have to deal with. Here are what I think are some major problems with the "democratic" government we have: 1. God bless the beloved, antiquated electoral system we have that allowed the state of Florida (Jeb Bush is the governor's name, if memory serves me correctly ¬ ¬) to stage a coup to get a president "elected" not by the American people, but instead via media pressure and other lame trickery (not widely publicized in an effort to not undermine the president's authority once he was, indisputably, in office). 2. Two branches out of three (executive and legislative) funded and controlled by corporations, and therefore two out of three branches that make concerted effort not to pay any heed to environmental concerns or really ANY socially responsible concerns that would go against corporate agenda. 3. Corporations (our REAL government) who don't even believe in any kind of social responsibility... their only ethic is profit. Giving back to a community is a mere PR function that happens only when the media gets involved, because bad publicity ==> uneasy investors ==> stock prices down ==> less profit. Fuck the poor people we're screwing over: Nothing motivates America like the bottom line. 4. My personal favorite: Consumerism with a capital P for the biggest Pig nation in the world. Consumers addicted to buying useless shit that will momentarily amuse them, please them, make them feel more wealthy, that they perceive will make them look more wealthy... you name it. Impulse buys! Have you ever REALLY looked at impulse buys?! Those are not only made from earth's precious, finite resources... so is their packaging... and ALL of it polluted our air and water while it was being manufactured and transported! LOVELY! /bleeding heart liberal environmentalist wacko Yes... I am the suffocatingest of the suffocating Americans. I don't even feel like this Iraqi war could possibly be a country in which I supposedly have a say. I honestly dream, nearly every day, of being an expatriate some day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 Damn... I'm a rabid liberal if you prod me a little. It's almost scary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue Nine Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 Bleh. What are you to do about it really? There isn't much, short of kidnapping the president and making him listen to your 12-gauge. Move to Europe. That's what I'm gonna do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Groovy Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 Yeah i'm with Rogue Nine, I was gonna move to the UK, but I just couldn't get exited about bangers and mash..... oh well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alien426 Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 The USA have the better entertainment value. I often see this when an internet shop proclaims that they only send to US and Canada, and also when I have to patiently wait for my favorite TV series to be broadcast here. It's good to see that other people want to leave their country as well. Maybe we can trade. I understand that you feel there should be no war. Apart from not wanting to loose a friend/relative who is a soldier and has to go there, it's also really dangerous to go poking a stick into a bee hive (as in "Arabs hate Americans"). The civilists will of course also suffer as much as in any war, which should be prevented. On the other hand, I have this nagging feeling that it could be worse if the Iraqis were left to themselves, possibly planning one of the devices that are said to be produced there (nuke, bio weapon...). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Eggplant Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 War Again Don't you know we got smart bombs It's a good thing that our bombs are clever Don't you know, that the smart bombs Are so clever, they only kill bad people now Don't you know, though our kids are dumb We got smart bombs, what a joyous thing now Here we go, so let's drink a toast To those clever bombs and the men who built them There they go now, there go all my friends There they go now, marching off to war again Smiling proudly with their heads in the clouds Yeah, yeah (yeah, yeah) Yeah, yeah (yeah, yeah) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah Don't you know, this is better Than any video, friend, it's an action movie Here we go, watch the bad guys Get their butts kicked, really makes me feel good Here we go, watching CNN The adrenaline rushes through my veins now Don't you know, it's a feel-good show Electronic bliss, it's a video, video There they go now, there go all my friends There they go now, marching off to war again With their bright flags waving in the wind There they go now, marching off to war again Smiling proudly with their heads in the clouds Yeah, yeah (yeah, yeah) Yeah, yeah (yeah, yeah) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah Aren't you glad we got smart bombs It's a good thing that our bombs are clever It's a shame that our kids are dumb But our bombs are smart - what a lucky thing now Don't you know, it's a feel-good show And it's suitable for the whole darn family Come on out, everybody shout Give a big salute to our ingenuity Don't you know, this is better than Any video, friend, it's an action movie Here we go, watch the bad guys Get their butts kicked, really makes me feel good Don't you know, it's Nintendo Really gets the blood going through my veins now Don't you know, it's a feel-good show Electronic bliss, it's a video, video There they go now, there go all my friends There they go now, marching off to war again With their bright flags waving in the wind There they go now, marching off to war again Smiling proudly There they go now, there go all my friends There they go now, marching off to war again With their bright flags waving in the wind There they go now, marching off to war again Smiling proudly with their heads in the clouds See them smile now, marching all in a line, yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah There they go now, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah There they go now, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, yeah, yeah There they go now, there go all my friends There they go now, marching off to war again. Oingo Boingo album: Boingo 1994 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaptorII Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 Where to begin? Short and sweet, if the bad continues, what will need to be done would piss off 'ole Lincoln, but thankfully the guy is long dead, so his irritation will be minor. As “great” as this country is supposed to be, it doesn't mean crap when we ignore our own constitution. We are in a dangerous time in America, and not because of foreign terrorists. The media has people scared ****less, and it is only getting worse as time goes on. Oh! But here comes the politicians to satiate the populous with radical plans to get rid of these frightening things that go bump in the TV. But do they really? Scary things keep coming up, so what are we to do? I know! Let’s let congress give away one of the forced powers upon them, and have them just hand it off to another branch of government so as to tip the balance of power, and **** up some checks, and oh I don’t know, balances! Yes! Giving the executive branch the right to declare war more or less officially, really will get things going! While we are at it, why don’t we build a ****ing clone army? Oh right, playing with eggs that will be thrown out anyway is wrong. On a slightly off topic note, about the word “God” in the pledge of Allegiance thing, most people dismiss it as a crazy hippy who just was using his daughter to get into the spotlight. While that may not be totally wrong, at least he was standing up for what he thought was right, and what he ‘thought’ was made pretty clear by some crazy dead guy a few years back who I guess didn’t want us to end up like England and have a Church-State mingling party. Not that it seemed to do a fat lot of good, as it is just not so overt in the connections here. All those people bitching about him, I don’t see you out there trying to make a difference, and if you are, please, let me know. On that note, I would like to point out that I think it foolish to pledge allegiance to this Country, as obviously at any given time it might be temporarily in the wrong, now pledging to the Constitution... Look, this is bad stuff here. “If you’re not with us, you’re against us.” Sounds really logic based and peaceful eh? I for one don’t want to live in a world like Warren Spector’s Deus Ex, or hell, North Korea. If you don’t watch what is going on carefully, there is a good chance something might just slip by. I am prepared to stand up for what I believe in, and I am willing to do some things I wouldn’t otherwise do. But I will do whatever it takes to keep this place free, and keep the ideals of the Constitution. It may not be perfect, but nothing known by humanity is. One thing is for certain, without massed numbers, we can do nothing. Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr., et al didn’t accomplish what they did alone it took thousands of people. Who will rise up now if the time comes? Just to be clear, I am not talking about rising up like a bunch of hippies either. I am talking out and out revolt, but one that is safe to the people. Harming people would only further the cause for the people trying to take away the freedom that exists in the USA, and violently force extreme beliefs on the rest of the world at the same time. Let us just hope it never comes to such a time when such words are taken with the utmost seriousness. But for now, laugh if you must, because you can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JofaGuht Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 AHHH!!!! THANK YOU FOR SAYING WHAT I FEEL! Ugh, I live in a an area where they don't tolerate that kind of talk. I am atheist liberal in a conservate christian community of rednecks and dumbasses, so don't even get me started. A place where hate crimes are family values, where parenting is beating your child, and where the open-mind is the most criticized. There are things you can do, Met. But you have to do them collectively. Like the hippies. Unfortunately, the modern trend of that are the preps, and they are most known for falling victim to consumerism, commerciallism, pro-war, or whatever the highest in power tells them to believe in. Unlike what some people are saying in this forum, I guarentee you if you work hard enough you will be able to rise and make statements that people will listen to, or who knows, maybe even become the next leader of the limits for people owning land between these imaginary lines called the USA. Don't give up and move out, that's what a coward would do. Believe me, Any individual is able to rise break these structures. I believe in anyone who can. I'm afraid i myself don't know what you can do, but try starting petitions for what you believe in. It works wonders. Its been doing all kinds of things to Missouri right now. They legalized medical marijuana here because of a regular guy's petition full of other regular guy's names. I even did it in my school last year, I got a lot of people to agree with me and now we have vending machines again.....even though there is a large difference between vending machines and war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoax Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 I personally say down with vending machienes and war! Everybody I know (no joke) is againt this war. Im not exzactly who here (US) supports it. Just wondering what part of the country do you live in? (JofaGuht) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Eggplant Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 Kudos for the post Metallus, I do not think I have seen such long and thoughtful posts, possibly ever. (besides my rantings) it is good to see passionate and profund responses by members of our forum. Kudos to all who politicize in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZaXeriaw Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 Personaly I'm against this war, but maybe it's necessary to show the power of US & NATO for Mr. Hussain? But I don't think war is the right way... A good football- or soccer-match would be cool... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeroXcape Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 Originally posted by Sarah Damn... I'm a rabid liberal if you prod me a little. It's almost scary. agreed. the liberal thing; not the proding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mercatfat Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JofaGuht Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 Originally posted by hoax Just wondering what part of the country do you live in? (JofaGuht) ugh, the midwest. I live in the middle east jesus of St. Louis, like Wildwood or whatever it's called. I go to a "blue ribbon winner" school that is "nationally recognized". If that's one of the best schools in the country, I feel so sorry for those who go to the bottom of the barrel schools. The midwest, right in the middle of the redneck areas and the cold northern whatever you call them. No influences from culture center lands. Actually, I used to live in a really crappy neighborhood in downtown Missouri. But so many people stole our stuff that we moved to Wildwood, out of a great private school I was going to. Then into the Rockwood district. Full of people who highly oppose against my kind. And yes, some of the people I live around think war is the right way to go in situations like these. A lot of people think that way. If we all thought against war, there probably wouldn't be one going on right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoax Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 I was starting to wonder if anybody was a supporter. Possibly I don't get outside the same group of people as often as I think I do. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doubleplus GC Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 Wow, Sarah, how'd you end up in Texas? There is something you can do. There is currently the framework of a plan being laid to impeach Bush. Search the web for it. The odds of Bush being thrown out of office (or, hell, even going on trial) while the war goes on is infinitessimal, but if enough people put their support behind the movement we can maybe put him on the defensive. And all is not hopeless. Last Saturday here in San Francisco a protest march was held which proved to be the largest anti-war rally since Vietnam. And, I'm proud to say, outside of two morons who ran off and broke some windows, the rally completely failed to get violent. We can all recall the Rodney King "protests" and remember that people protesting reprehensible acts can act just as reprehensibly. Y'all should head on down to LucasFans and check out my own personal anti-war thread. It's proving to be pretty snazzy. Just don't accost our other threads too heavily, we're a little xenophobic. Cheers 'n' peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 Originally posted by hoax I was starting to wonder if anybody was a supporter. My parents support the war... and they're the taxpayers. It amazes me how people who were alive during Watergate trust the government as much as my parents do. Sigh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tall Guy Posted January 26, 2003 Share Posted January 26, 2003 It's hard to know how much truth is in the many reports that come back from Iraq about weapons of mass destruction being produced or stored. At Brits we are very much in the dark as to what exactly is going on. If Iraq is as much a threat as it's being reported then I believe we should do what is nessesary to protect the people of Britain and all the other countries caught up in this mess. Already in Britain there have been a few terrotist operations intercepted my special forces and recently there were a number of people arrested for possession of Ricin. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2640987.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2636105.stm - About ricin. I know that if we go to war (and i think we will end up doing) many inocent people are going to die. Children are going to die. The thing is, there can be no war against the people who plot to bring this world to its knees without inocents being killled. The solution? No war. but is it just a temporary solution? If these people are as evil as being reported then it seems they will never stop, unless we stop them first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JofaGuht Posted January 26, 2003 Share Posted January 26, 2003 Yep, you should expect war. So far, a lot of our other allies have disagreed to help us, but the UK is going to. As for the people we are going against, none of us know exactly how "potentially evil" they are. It seems we just all have to wipe out all the powerful dictators with powerful weapons. Will this war be the harbinger of peace? Nope. After we finish the war on this specific "ism" of terror, there will probably more war on some other concept globally impossible to go against. That's what I think at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Eggplant Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 there's a certain irony when pop ups keep, popping up for the armed forces. especially when trying to post on this topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JofaGuht Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 Well, since Eggplant is I think I'll inflict some good war lyrics myself. "Stand rigid for the next battle Peace means reloading your guns The love for life is all hatred in disguise A carnival creation with masks undone" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scabb Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 I truly fail to see the point behind this war. I don't see how such lengths could be reached in order to obtain a drop of oil. Perhaps there is a population boom coming, and Bush justs wants to thin out their numbers? Perhaps Television networks are tired of featuring special 'Vietnam' or 'World War 2' episodes, and we need something else to occupy the minds of the voters? Or maybe the Gods are playing 'Risk'. Either way, we have to face up the inevitable, which is not exactly inevitable, nor is it comprehendable thanks to Turner & Friends and their love of half-truths. So Hussein has weapons of mass destruction. Doesn't every country? The US has 14000, Russia has 28000, China, the UK and France have 400 each, India has 100, and Pakistan, North Korea and Iran are definetely holding a few. If America really needed shot of Saddam, then why not just carpet bomb the whole of Iraq behind our backs, because I fail to see how Bush is going to get re-elected anyway. Perhaps his PR people, Spin Doctors and other assorted lackeys think that he could add another four years to his belt by surviving an impeachment, or maybe George is using the old "Look over there!" trick, to divert your attention while he snatches some candy from a nearby infant. To be honest, I don't feel strongly either way. It seems almost normal that there is a "greater possibility of war" and "trouble ahead", and from what the media spit at us, I don't know which side to take or which facts to believe. However, I would gladly revolt against the corrupt government (Pick a country) and the corporations that turned our culture into little trinkets that we have emptied our pockets for. What America needs is some good old dictatorship, but not the nasty kind. The kind that tells these companies to "Shut Up" and "Stop doing that". If Bush is such a noble leader, then he should be leading the troops into Baghdad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabez Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 Yeah, I’m strongly against the war too. But then I’m against any type of war, really. Against any type of violence. I took part in a partition against it, which was then sent to Tony Blair, or so I’m told. To be honest I don’t know anyone supporting this war either, apart from the people with all the power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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