Guest Jolts Posted February 5, 2003 Share Posted February 5, 2003 I also think sp was complete crap. I could go off for pages on why, but that would be lame and boring. I think they should do what they did with unreal, keep sp and mp seperate games. As far as the expansion, raven is much better at making mp games vs sp games and they should stick to mp only for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luc Solar Posted February 5, 2003 Share Posted February 5, 2003 Originally posted by Spider AL Umm... Okay. I'm not sure what exactly you disliked about the puzzles then, it can't be that they were too difficult, because you say you WANT to use your brain... Too fiddly maybe? Only Reelo's garbage-plant front was fiddly, IMO. As for the others, they whipped by pretty quick. It all played in a remarkably fluid fashion, and I never felt that the puzzles snapped one out of the flow, per-se. The puzzles where there solely because they wanted puzzles. It seems silly that "the fate of the universe" depends on something totally irrational like a pushing some box into...oh well, you already know the story about the squirrel in panic. I've seen good puzzles. The JO puzzles, imho, werent' good or too hard. They were just dumb. Umm... So you're saying you didn't like the SP in JK1 either? The final fight with Jerec was at least as much of a puzzler as the fight with Desann. Not to mention the fact that you can kill Desann without the god-beam, or the pillars. Since I was ranting earlier; Let me rephrase: I liked both games *BUT* JO had a lot of very annoying things in it. I disliked the puzzles, the plot could (should) have been better and...oh; give me real cutscenes for christ sakes, not some crap made with the game engine! I didn't know about the pillars or the beam until I visited these forums. Desann died pretty quickly. What I'm saying is: I don't want the Final Fight to be a lame puzzle along the lines "lure him into the Amazing Beam of Death 'cause he is suddenly invulnerable to all other kinds of damage. Um, you must be talking about some addon level other than the original Ladder, coz Vader wasn't in that to my knowledge, and all the bosses were killable. The Tavion-fight was in a addon level. Vader was in Ladder II or Ladder I. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Shaft Posted February 6, 2003 Share Posted February 6, 2003 An expansion pack that concentrates on multiplayer is the best way of doing things. I would prefer that they cool the jets on any stories about Kyle Katarn for awhile. When a JO2/JK3 arrives, the story should take Kyle back to his roots in terms of story line. I always did enjoy the little Imperial Remnant thing, however it doesn't make much sense anymore. It seems every imperial remnant is controlled by some anonymous dark jedi now. I liked Mysteries of the Sith because you would go through at least 17 or 18 long levels before you had any jedi against jedi combat. I appreciated the fact that I had to be Mara Jade or Kyle and just destroy people with the Force and a lightsaber. I actually enjoyed the game more when I played it using a mod called Saber Battle X, merely because it had a whole slew of new saber animations, so I could truly kick some arse as a jedi. Mysteries of the Sith had it right though. You went through all kinds of different terrains, and had to use your jedi training to win, or you could just blast everyone to death, but I preferred doing it the other way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider AL Posted February 6, 2003 Share Posted February 6, 2003 Originally posted by Luc Solar: I've seen good puzzles. The JO puzzles, imho, werent' good or too hard. They were just dumb. Well, the puzzles have been pretty much the same since DF. What game contained the puzzles you like? Originally posted by Luc Solar: give me real cutscenes for christ sakes, not some crap made with the game engine! You want b-movie/soap actors in cheap costumes? Live FMV cutscenes are plagued with bad actors. Besides, using the game-engine to make cutscenes keeps you in the game-world. Originally posted by Luc Solar: What I'm saying is: I don't want the Final Fight to be a lame puzzle along the lines "lure him into the Amazing Beam of Death 'cause he is suddenly invulnerable to all other kinds of damage. Uh?.. Beam of death? There's a beam of death in the Desann fight? The only beam I know of in the Desann fight was beneficial AND optional, and heck, I dunno what you mean by invulnerability, Desann wasn't invulnerable to anything when I fought him... Hardly a puzzle... Originally posted by Luc Solar: The Tavion-fight was in a addon level. Vader was in Ladder II or Ladder I. Yer, that's what I said, he wasn't in the original Ladder, and in the original Ladder, all bosses were killable. Originally posted by Doctor Shaft: I would prefer that they cool the jets on any stories about Kyle Katarn for awhile. People are always saying "Kyle Katarn is tired, he's run out of stories and steam" etc. etc. But it's not about what character they use, it's about the skill of the writer. They should employ an actual, talented writer, school him in the canon of the games, and set him loose. Then maybe we'd get an imaginative, original storyline with good character development for Kyle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagabond Posted February 6, 2003 Share Posted February 6, 2003 Originally posted by Luc Solar ...I hated the way the managed to fill the game with idiotic puzzles solely for the sake of Puzzles. I want to use my brains. I don't want to shoot aimlessly at everything hoping to hit some random little box that explodes and lets me force-push a little switch that pops up behind the hole that the explosion made in the wall and then run to the other side of the map, pull another box, use my light amplification goggles to scare a little squirrel that panics and runs through the ventilation system and causes a blackout which causes the guard to open the secret hatch number 174 allowing me to slip by the electric fence and enter the password in the mainframe which puts the ion cannons online and firing randomly hitting a speeder which crashes into the side of the warehouse an VOILA --> I have access to the next level! Yay! I'm so smart! ... LOL!!! Man, that's freakin' hilarious. I agree - I dislike puzzles for the sake of puzzles as well. It's kind of hard to suspend your disbelief when you end up wondering about the absurd convergence of totally unreleated events required in order to reach the next area of the map. After a certain point, you end up thinking, "Okay, this is just silly", and it ends up feeling more like work than fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luc Solar Posted February 6, 2003 Share Posted February 6, 2003 Originally posted by Spider AL You want b-movie/soap actors in cheap costumes? Live FMV cutscenes are plagued with bad actors. Besides, using the game-engine to make cutscenes keeps you in the game-world. I don't want bad actors. I just want something worth waiting for. A prize for completing a mission...sort of. Something like the cutscenes in JK1. (Those made a huge difference for me.) Seeing The "Real" Kyle and lightsabers and stuff was so cool. Game engine cutscenes simply don't 'do it' for me. Uh?.. Beam of death? There's a beam of death in the Desann fight? The only beam I know of in the Desann fight was beneficial AND optional, and heck, I dunno what you mean by invulnerability, Desann wasn't invulnerable to anything when I fought him... Hardly a puzzle... I was just ranting and trying to make a point. You'll only get confused if you take me literally when I'm doing that. ....Then maybe we'd get an imaginative, original storyline with good character development for Kyle. Yup. And please keep your hands off the Force. I don't want JK3 to be the hunt of the superchickendroid that's able to lay Eggs Of Ultimate ForcePower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider AL Posted February 6, 2003 Share Posted February 6, 2003 Originally posted by Luc Solar: I don't want bad actors. I just want something worth waiting for. A prize for completing a mission...sort of. Something like the cutscenes in JK1. (Those made a huge difference for me.) Seeing The "Real" Kyle and lightsabers and stuff was so cool. Game engine cutscenes simply don't 'do it' for me. Ahh I see. For me, on the other hand, the JK cutscenes were a festival of pain, during which I sat in my nice leather computer chair, cringing desperately as the cheap soap actors in cheap latex makeup unworthy of the "Star Wars Christmas Special" pranced around butchering lines which didn't make any sense on paper anyway. But hey, if you enjoyed them, more power to you. Originally posted by Luc Solar: I was just ranting and trying to make a point. You'll only get confused if you take me literally when I'm doing that Aha! I knew you weren't making much sense... Whatever point you were trying to make, however, didn't apply to JO. No puzzles in the boss-fights there, d'you see! Originally posted by Luc Solar: Yup. And please keep your hands off the Force. I don't want JK3 to be the hunt of the superchickendroid that's able to lay Eggs Of Ultimate ForcePower. Agreed. The last thing we need is more EU-esque Mondochlorian/Force-Crystal nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryudom Posted February 6, 2003 Share Posted February 6, 2003 Yup. And please keep your hands off the Force. I don't want JK3 to be the hunt of the superchickendroid that's able to lay Eggs Of Ultimate ForcePower. LOL thats gold, platinum even! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDKnite188 Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 I just hope the clever obstacles in JKIII won't be considered puzzles. I felt like a little kid when I had to "find the right symbols" to activate the self-destruct system on Kejim. That invulnerability beam in the chamber in which Kyle and Desann fight was pathetic. In the Valley of the Jedi in JK there was some orb thing in a column that revived Jerec's energy and health with the engraved power of the force. Desann wasn't even hard if you used speed + strong. The mine bridge in Bespin streets was amusing though. One time I fought a reborn nearby when the mines weren't activated (I forget where the reborn came from). I jumped in a leap over the bridge (not full over it) and he followed me pacing on his way. I landed on the bridge for a second triggering the mines; he was standing beside a cute, little mine. I jump after a second watching this: Reborn says "Do you fear me?", explosion of all mines, reborn body goes flying off bridge . /me likes There is no doubt that JO was a thrill ride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheJackal Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 Okay, i dont like bursing bubbles, BUT DROP THE OBI WAN ENGINE TALK! Seriously it might sound high tech. trust me. i had a great fan site dedicated to it when it was announced (http://www.obiwan-network) and my site was the first to post screenshots of the game. ( http://web.archive.org/web/20001204163800/http://www.obiwan-network.com/ ) <-- images dont work but its there anyways. the engine sounded high tech and a very good idea. however it was NOT practicle and the graphics were not very good. The game was CANNED for the PC because it lacked the possibility to be such a great game. it was only worthy to be a console game (no insult to consoles ) As for the SinglePlayer in JK2... i personnaly think it could of been better. It had its low points and high points. I think the acting was .... StarWars movie quality (aka terrible acting) and the story line lacked the depth and quality of other LEC classics (DarkForce 2: JediKnight, Grim Fandango, Monkey Island, etc). The atmosphere was totally lost. They were close, but not as amazing as running around in the AfterLife (Grim Fandango) or a creepy base like in Aliens and Predator. JK2 did not stir my imagination. I also think MP was worst in JK2 than the first JediKnight. Simple because i personnally though it was more random swinging (the classical yellow constant spinning) and the over use of force powers (even throught ALL the patches, people over used EVERYTHING!). The community ruined the game, pure lack of sportsmanship (fair playing). IN CONCLUSION: Raven and LEC better devellop the multiplayer aspect (mostly team based stuff) , and completly leave the singler player aspect. Kill Kyle off and create new exiting things. In fact, I'm starting to think they need to ditch StarWars games untill a huge technological advancements come along. PS: ignore my terrible spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider AL Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 TheJackal, exactly right about Obi-Wan. I have NO idea why people keep wheeling that one out... sigh. Originally posted by TheJackal: I also think MP was worst in JK2 than the first JediKnight. Simple because i personnally though it was more random swinging Hmm, due to the peer-to-peer netcode of JK1 and its... unique handling of lag, online sabre duels consisted of one single move over and over as one player tried to predict where the other one would be in about half a second, and hit the air in that area hoping to connect. I kinda prefer JO in that respect... Somewhat less random, no? Originally posted by TheJackal: and the over use of force powers (even throught ALL the patches, people over used EVERYTHING!). The community ruined the game, pure lack of sportsmanship (fair playing). The community DID ruin the game, but it was mainly people screaming about "fair play" that did it. If you cast your mind back, people at the time were screaming about the Flechette being too powerful, Drain being too powerful, Heal being too powerful, Strong stance being too powerful... so Raven nerfed them all in 1.03. That was what really ruined the game. I don't think spammers had that much of a hand in it, annoying as they are. Originally posted by TheJackal: IN CONCLUSION: Raven and LEC better devellop the multiplayer aspect (mostly team based stuff) , and completly leave the singler player aspect. Kill Kyle off and create new exiting things. I don't think that would work, nor that they'd ever do it. More people buy Star Wars games for the single player experience than the MP, apparently. Those who want online competition nab the latest Quake/Unreal instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luc Solar Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 Didn't play much with force enabled during the 1.02 times so I don't know much about that BUT I do think heal was too strong. The joke below was quite appropriate at the time. Try having 1 level in heal now! You'll spend half your force pool and gain...what? - 10 hit points? Ummm...what was this thread about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider AL Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 Originally posted by Luc Solar: Didn't play much with force enabled during the 1.02 times so I don't know much about that BUT I do think heal was too strong. Too strong? How strong is too strong? I never had any trouble dispatching heal-spammers, even in Duel. Who can say. It was no stronger than Drain was, so the two sides balanced out quite well. But now of course it's not worth having either of those powers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graigsmith Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 i wont buy it. i was sorely dissapointed with jediknight 2. the multiplayer was pretty good.. then they ruined it. raven blows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zodiac Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 I so much agree with Solar and WD_Torment. Sooo much that I don't have to write much in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediLoaf Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 i nevrlayed it, but i heard some good things about the UT2003 engine... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer Posted February 15, 2003 Share Posted February 15, 2003 A lot of interesting ideas and points already raised, I see. I think I agree with others about the short time span that seems to be involved here. Raven managed to produce Jedi Outcast so quickly because...a) they were intimately familiar with the engine they were going to use, b) they had produced a great 3rd person hack'n'slash with a decent plot in Heretic II, c) they can work fast. If there is a sequel in the pipeline scheduled for release early next year, it would be silly to expect some other developer to come up with at least as good game mechanics as Raven, using a different engine...unless they had already been working on it for some time (like since the release of Jedi Outcast). If a sequel (or even expansion) is being made, the logical choice would be to use Raven again, with the same engine, possibly tweaked even more. That way you ensure continuity, and perhaps have a little more time to focus on gameplay elements, rather than having to adapt the engine from scratch to meet your needs. That seems more likely to me... As for other engines...well, if Unreal 2 is anything to go by, the newest iteration of the Unreal tech can build big levels, but they just don't seem as big. There are also long load-times on older hardware like mine - even longer than Outcast's in SP, which I thought were long enough. Perhaps the whole problem with expanding vistas...is that they actually extend for a greater distance than we really appreciate, and they don't translate well enough in current game engines. Unreal II felt just like base after base stuck in the middle of a square piece of terrain, unfortunately. I think the trick is actually having lots of cramped spaces, and just catching glimpses of something that seems vast. Actually being in a vast space...you feel as if you're not moving very fast...yet you reach the edges of that vista too quickly. The levels that seemed larger...were actually those that restricted your area of vision. I think it's something to do with the brain actually filling in the blanks and assuming voids are vast open spaces. The new DOOM tech seems even more restrictive and claustrophobic, although I think someone said it was capable of larger areas. I'm getting to the point where I'm inclined to agree with others that a new engine should be built for any further Jedi Knight titles. An engine that can handle truly vast spaces, and be powerful enough to fill those areas with lots of detail. Or perhaps just an engine that can manage smooth and seamless (transparent) level transitions, like Dungeon Siege, without the hideous loading times. Anyway, the thing to note about the new Unreal tech is that many of the developers using it are actually rewriting the render code and particle systems to match their particular needs. Although it's modular in format, it still needs a lot of work to achieve the right feel for your particular project. I don't know the exact limitations of the new S.T.A.L.K.E.R. engine, but that would seem as good a candidate as any for developing a game requiring vast areas to explore - the fact that the game allows you to drive vehicles is good evidence of the scale of terrain involved. I imagine it's something similar to Operation Flashpoint, in that respect. Looking at it from that perspective, if you simply had an engine like that, which maybe didn't render so many hundred thousand polygons per frame...but did a poly-bump trick like the new DOOM to actually fool you into thinking the scenery and models were higher definition than they actually were...maybe that's a way to improve visuals while retaining low enough poly counts to not seriously impact performance on lower end rigs. Anyway, regardless of engine, I'd hope that any sequel or expansion pack in the pipeline would do for Jedi Outcast what MotS did for Jedi Knight. It should at least improve the game visually in some manner, offer a decent plot for SP, new locales, new ideas, new characters. It becomes frustrating, in a way, that the great points you loved from previous games aren't simply carried through as standard features in sequels. Yet we see it more and more...where a developer is sometimes caught in a quandary about what the gaming audience actually enjoyed from Game 1, and sometimes completely miss the mark about what worked and what didn't that should be implemented in Game 2. From my point of view, the real reference for a Star Wars game should be the movies themselves. The sweeping grandeur, the fast action and intense battles, and thriving communities populated with many and varied characters from a wide variety of alien races. The original Jedi Knight actually managed well to give a feel that you were walking through a city, due to the number of NPCs on screen at any given time...and not just bad guys. I have to say that I think the original Jedi Knight and MoTS should still be used as the benchmark when producing any sequels. They did many things right, in terms of level design, interaction, morality, NPC populations and taking into account underwater exploration. I think where Jedi Outcast managed to excel was in the saber combat and visualisation. Finally, I don't think any development these days should be conducted in isolation, i.e., not viewing what other games in the genre are trying to achieve. As a gamer, I look at new features in up-coming titles, and old features in past classics, and my expectation is that I will see the majority of those features implemented in the titles I am waiting for. I'm not simply talking about enhanced graphics...because for me the graphics are secondary to the actual gameplay. The gameplay has to come first...and it should try and build and expand on what has gone before, not simply trim this feature, or that feature, or attempt to compact and simplify only elements that were deemed to work from previous outings, while overlooking things that might actually have given greater enjoyment to the end gamer. The bottom line is...don't just produce a game to cash in on past successes. Try and really push the envelope in terms of content and interaction. Look at games like Jedi Knight, Deus Ex, Half-Life, No One Lives Forever, Unreal, and Jedi Outcast, you'll find many great gameplay elements that worked, and worked well. None of those games were perfect...but they did some things extraordinarily well. A hybrid of the best elements from each of those games could make something truly exceptional. Anyway...if it's a sequel, Kyle Katarn has to appear somewhere...but it doesn't have to mean the focus should be on him alone. The series needs new ideas and new characters if it is to remain successful, I think. I would actually probably argue these days for less cut scenes, particularly where dialogue is concerned. It would be better from my POV if you remained in-character, moving around freely, while you 'talk' to someone to get information. Where cut scenes do have a place is showing the wider picture...the actions of others...and external shots of ships, etc. Nevertheless, to be frank, when you look at the movie-like CGI footage of some console titles, and compare it to some in-engine cut-scenes on games developed for PC, the PC is often found lacking in sheer visual style. Unless you have an exceptional game engine, you can't make your characters perform or even approach dynamic action, and that is what is needed, I think. I guess I've probably said enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jolts Posted February 15, 2003 Share Posted February 15, 2003 raven was able to bust jo out so fast because a lot of the work was done already. They pulled a lot from sof2, starting with plants and tree's, then they used the same human models and modified them a little for jo. They also used some of the ai from sof2, ghoul2....lots of little time savers. Also noticed some animation sharing between the two games, like grenade throws, and shooting animations. I could careless as long as the gameplay is good. As far as an engine they could use for a new jedi game, I would go for something like the halo 2 engine. It handles seemless transitions of levels, large outdoor areas, killer ai, nice graphics pretty much up there with doom3, has vehicle physics that work great for both land and air. All the things a great star wars game needs. I have no idea how well the netcode is for that engine, could be good, could be crap...we'll see when halo for pc comes out. I would think it would be best to seperate single player jedi games from a jo type of mp game. I don't want to hear things like "well since its an sp/mp game we coudln't do this cool stuff in sp...or blah blah in mp..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryudom Posted February 15, 2003 Share Posted February 15, 2003 i don't wanna pay 100000 dollars to get sp and mp... one game would be better imo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuuki Posted February 16, 2003 Share Posted February 16, 2003 Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ please, please, please don't let it be on the Quake 3 engine and not be developed by Raven. YEAH! Use the Quake 2 Engine and have it all done by.... um.... ...Squaresoft!! YES! actually, a JK game dont in the way of a FF, wouldn't be too bad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 Originally posted by Scarface2k2 actually, a JK game dont in the way of a FF, wouldn't be too bad I'd prefer it done in the way of a...Deus Ex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ack Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 hope Jedi outcast 2 is better then Jedi Outcast anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesTeg Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 A Jedi Outcast 2 features I want: - all vehicles should be controlable - the player should be more involved in big battles (much more npcs, team missions etc.) - no planet-to-planet teleports. More Space action (maybe some arcade minigames) / dialogue cutscenes - a great, partly nonlinear plot and some optional missions/ the ability to choose the missions. - stronger jedies but not that much like in JO.... (for me hordes of reborns etc. just don´t feel right in starwars). All Jedis should always be something special (like in JK1) and not one of the usual enemies! - the last enemy should be evil humanlike... I don´t like lizards... He/she should be much more fascinating! (hm... what about Thrawn?) - more npc interaction / more neutral npcs! - make the main character/game darker (but keep the jokes )! - keep the amount of action Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinWalker Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 I browsed through this thread and I have to say that everyone (just about) made some good observations about the current game. I have to agree with many of the points that most people raised about things like cut-scenes, force-powers, etc. As far as cut-scenes, I have to strongly agree with Luc Solar... there should be a "prize" at the end of the SP game. A video clip along the lines of the Duality fan film would be awsome. These guys could do it, so I'm sure a big budget production company (even if it is producing a game) could do it. For game play, I'd like to see a larger multi-player environment. Not necessarily an entire universe like the SW Galaxies thing, but definately more space to move about. I think that FFA_Bespin was fine for 5 players, but put 16 in there and it's too chaotic. Same with the Star Destroyer, Death Star, etc. I'd also like to see the ability to blend in with Non-Player Characters..... and a penalty for killing Non-Player characters. That would make people more sure of their shots and allow for games like Bounty Hunter missions. Anyway... my $.02 SkinWalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hekx Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 Hopefully they'll use an newer engine which allows large scale maps with a good frame-rate. I doubt they'll use the UT2003 engine, but still it looks good. Since there's been about 5 of these threads, I don't want to type out everything again. Although the human-acted cutscenes sound good. I too also want to see more locations. Coruscant, Endor, Naboo etc, different locations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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