Abstinence

[Mace MacLeod]

Heh heh heh...awwwwwwwwwwwww thought you might be flirting there for a second...

[Nancy Allen``]

Where'd that Mira line go?

 

"Look, if we start sharing a bunk, the other girls will get upset, and then I'd have to kick the hell out of them to show them who's the pack leader around here."

 

Anyway, uh, morally you arn't meant to have sex until you're married, but going by the Bible you're not even allowed to go to the toilet. And the Quran? The reason why Muslim women are treated the way they are is because it's in the religion. Honestly you're meant to go by what your religion says, but you're not going to be sent to hell or whatever if you choose to have sex outside of marriage. Of course if you're already married it's a whole other story, but let's face it, how many who have been there made it a clumsy fumble? Better to have at least some idea if you ask me.

[Windu Chi]

Where'd that Mira line go?

 

"Look, if we start sharing a bunk, the other girls will get upset, and then I'd have to kick the hell out of them to show them who's the pack leader around here."

 

Anyway, uh, morally you arn't meant to have sex until you're married, but going by the Bible you're not even allowed to go to the toilet. And the Quran? The reason why Muslim women are treated the way they are is because it's in the religion. Honestly you're meant to go by what your religion says, but you're not going to be sent to hell or whatever if you choose to have sex outside of marriage. Of course if you're already married it's a whole other story, but let's face it, how many who have been there made it a clumsy fumble? Better to have at least some idea if you ask me.

What other girls? It is not that many girls on this fourm. Of course I could be wrong.

 

Last I check there are 116,442 members, I have no clue how many are females.

[Nancy Allen``]

The actual line is from KOTOR 2, when Mira uses it to justify rejecting any feelings the Exile might have towards her. It's more Brianna, or Visis maybe who are the romantic options.

[ET Warrior]

Look up the word "foreplay". It's more than just grabbing her boobs and saying; "Honk Honk, here it comes!!"

I guess I must have not presented my comment in the proper context...as everyone seems to be under the impression that I either don't understand WHY it hurts, or don't understand factors to go into avoiding that discomfort.

 

My point was that if you have two people who have remained completely abstinant until their wedding night, they very well might NOT know these things, and suddenly what should be a magical night of intimacy as husband and wife becomes and awkward and painful romp in the sheets that probably ends far sooner than either party would have hoped.

 

I can't hear you from up here on this high horse

*throws rocks at DH*

 

For teens, it does.

That's odd, I kinda liked it when I was a teenager.I wouldn't have used 'stinks' to describe it, and I have no diseases or children to show for it. Perhaps because Iwasn't foolish about it...

 

Whether I want to hear people's opinions or not is unrelated to my opinions about their opinions.

"I want to know what members of this forum community I can look down upon because I have such better morality than they do." ?

[Emperor Devon]

I wouldn't have used 'stinks' to describe it, and I have no diseases or children to show for it. Perhaps because Iwasn't foolish about it...

 

Teens can avoid pregnancy when they have sex, like adults. However, you cannot deny that many of them are foolish about it.

 

"I want to know what members of this forum community I can look down upon because I have such better morality than they do." ?

 

No, I just enjoy debating and am making an emotional appeal in my arguments.

[The Doctor]

No, they bloody aren't. This is why teenagers aren't allowed to vote or buy booze.

 

Look dude, no offence, but this is something that maturity really does affect. I've read your posts in the KotOR forums, so I know that you are a reasonably intelligent, thoughtful and articulate human being who deserves respect on his own merits, but the fact is that you (being 16) are still a work in progress. The "you" that's reading this is an entirely different "you" that will peer back from the mirror in 5-10 years. Your body is not yet fully developed, your brain is not yet fully developed, therefore your mind is not yet fully developed. I'm sorry to say that this simply isn't something you can appreciate until you've lived through it. Write this down and read it to yourself in 10 years: You'll be saying; "Damn, that opinionated prick Mace MacLeod was right after all!"

I said save the ****ing speaches. I've heard them before, and you're just plain wrong. I know there's nothing I can say to convince you that you're wrong, but I assure you, you are.

[Dagobahn Eagle]

*Throws rock at DE*

Shi-- Close one:p.

You do realize I was joking, right?

 

I want to know what members of this forum community I can look down upon because I have such better morality than they do.

[Raises hand].

[Mace MacLeod]

*shrug* Like I said Doctor, write this thread down and read it to yourself in 10 years. Maybe you forgot that I've been 16 before.

[ET Warrior]

You do realize I was joking, right?.

Which is why I'm throwing rocks and not hand grenades.

 

 

Teens can avoid pregnancy when they have sex, like adults. However, you cannot deny that many of them are foolish about it.

And most of them are foolish because they aren't given the proper education about it.

[Emperor Devon]

And most of them are foolish because they aren't given the proper education about it.

 

And I doubt we'll every get through to a good number of them.

[The Doctor]

*shrug* Like I said Doctor, write this thread down and read it to yourself in 10 years. Maybe you forgot that I've been 16 before.

Just because you weren't mature enough at 16 doesn't mean that others can't be.

 

EDIT: Just so I don't sound like a completely arrogant son of a bitch, I admit that Mace is not entirely wrong - I'm not saying that all teens understand love, I'm merely saying that some are capable of it. We're not all as immature as people seem to think sometimes, and I hate being generalised. I hate it when people try to drop me into a stereotype. It really pisses me off.

 

Something else I feel compelled to mention...

Here's the rub: there's another purpose for sex that nobody seems to want to talk about. Bonding. Sex can (and often does) create very powerful emotional bonds between the partners, and there's a theory that this is another evolutional adaptation that God/Mother Nature added to human sex. Why? Have a kid. Raising children is a very long and stressful process, and it's thought that sex feels so good and creates the ties it does to bond the parents together so their offspring have the best possible chance, being cared for by two people.

Why do you need to bond with someone on a one night stand? One doesn't need to bond with someone they're never going to see, much less have sex with, again. From what I've seen (though my knowledge on one night stands isn't what it could be), people that sleep with a different person every night don't want to bond with anyone.

[Tyrion]

Just because you weren't mature enough at 16 doesn't mean that others can't be.

 

EDIT: Just so I don't sound like a completely arrogant son of a bitch, I admit that Mace is not entirely wrong - I'm not saying that all teens understand love, I'm merely saying that some are capable of it. We're not all as immature as people seem to think sometimes, and I hate being generalised. I hate it when people try to drop me into a stereotype. It really pisses me off.

 

I'll be 16 in a month, but I disagree that we really could be mature to know what love is. Not because we haven't grown physiologically or mentally, persay, but because our love hasn't experienced the trials and tribulations only adults would have. At our ages, life is generally much easier and less stressful than working everything out on your own. Not to say that getting married so young would never work, but any love we have now is largely untested beyond mild high school intrigue.

[The Doctor]

I'll be 16 in a month, but I disagree that we really could be mature to know what love is. Not because we haven't grown physiologically or mentally, persay, but because our love hasn't experienced the trials and tribulations only adults would have.

Speak for yourself.

 

At our ages, life is generally much easier and less stressful than working everything out on your own.

Fair point. Yes, our lives are easier than, say, Mace's or Jae's. I've never disputed that. But again, you're over-generalising. There are teens out there who do have to work everything out on their own. We can be just as mature - indeed, even more mature - than someone their age(s).

 

Not to say that getting married so young would never work, but any love we have now is largely untested beyond mild high school intrigue.

You must have missed the post where I mentioned that my girlfriend and I are talking about getting married, yes - but not for over five years. Probably more like ten. We're not talking about getting married in a week or anything. We're young. Not stupid.

[Tyrion]

Speak for yourself.

 

Unless you happen to come from rather harsh home-life conditions, you wouldn't have had to faced the responsibilities that come with total control of your life.

 

Fair point. Yes, our lives are easier than, say, Mace's or Jae's. I've never disputed that. But again, you're over-generalising. There are teens out there who do have to work everything out on their own. We can be just as mature - indeed, even more mature - than someone their age(s).

 

I was thinking of clarifying my point earlier and decided against it, but yes teens who do successfully work everything out on their own are probably more adept towards knowing what love is. But for the greater majority of American teens, they haven't experienced that.

 

For clarity, by maturity I mean the level of control within your life that you could emancipate from your parents today and still could function well within society.

 

You must have missed the post where I mentioned that my girlfriend and I are talking about getting married, yes - but not for over five years. Probably more like ten. We're not talking about getting married in a week or anything. We're young. Not stupid.

 

Good. That way, if you're right about love you're right, and if you're wrong you needn't face the messy details of divorce.

[Mace MacLeod]

Just because you weren't mature enough at 16 doesn't mean that others can't be.

 

EDIT: Just so I don't sound like a completely arrogant son of a bitch, I admit that Mace is not entirely wrong - I'm not saying that all teens understand love, I'm merely saying that some are capable of it. We're not all as immature as people seem to think sometimes, and I hate being generalised. I hate it when people try to drop me into a stereotype. It really pisses me off.

^^^This guy...he won't stop...

 

Why exactly is it that you think guys like me say things like that to guys like you? Some vast adult conspiracy to piss you off? No. We say it because we lived through it. I never said teenagers can't understand or comprehend love or being in love. Hey, I remember my girlfriend from when I was 16. She wasn't the first girl I kissed or slept with, but she was my first real, bonafide Girlfriend. Yes, I loved her. I'm quite happy to accept that you and your girlfriend are in love, but understand this: Your subjective emotional experience of love and being in love will change as you leave puberty and enter adulthood. Not unrecognizably, but it will. Growing up from being a teenager to an adult won't just involve your face clearing up, you ceasing to look like a shaved chimpanzee (as most teenage boys do) or learning to control your PMS, it also involves subtle (and not-so-subtle) emotional changes. It happens. Believe it or not, like it or not.

 

Oh, and by the way, if you're going to talk about how mature you are, writing frothing posts that look like: "**** man, I'm so ****ing tired of people talking **** about how immature I am, I ****ing hate that ****" really doesn't help your cause. It pegs you as something you clearly don't like to get pegged as. For future reference.

[Datheus]

Emperor Devon:

 

Please outline your stance on sexual education in the public school system.

[Emperor Devon]

I think it should be taught. Kids should know the negative effects of sex at their age.

[ET Warrior]

Why do you need to bond with someone on a one night stand?

Pre-marital sex is not synonymous with one-night stands.

[Dagobahn Eagle]

Please outline your stance on sexual education in the public school system.

Bring it on. And while we're at it, get some education on psychiatry, mental illnesses, and grief and all the other taboos-for-no-good-reason in there, too.

 

There's a correlation between knowledge on grief, psychiatry, STDs, and other subjects and how well you handle it when others or yourself have to face it.

 

PS: While I just strongly advocated sexual education, can someone explain to me why on this God-blasted Earth it is that the perverts in both the Norwegian (lived here for eighteen years) and American (lived there for three years) have to tell us how to make babies five times (and I'm not excaggerating)?

 

Are they driven by a form of pedophilia that delivers them sexual pleasure from telling us stuff we learned the first time, or is there a more logical reason? Not to mention that we for some reason learn 10 times more about guys than the "sacred" girls.

[Jae Onasi]

Let's see....

Abstinence--is a good thing to shoot for. There is a religious component for me, however, the medical component actually carries far more weight, personally. Your risk for STDs goes up as your number of partners goes up. Your risk of pregnancy goes up (well, at least for girls), even with birth control, because bc's not foolproof. BC makes the risk very low when it's used correctly, but it's not zero risk. Abstinence has zero risk of pregnancy and STDs. So, I think abstinence should be taught in school along with other forms of birth control.

A lot of people think that STDs are curable, so no big deal if you get them. Unfortunately, some of the diseases are becoming more antibiotic resistant, and some can't be cured at all, just controlled, e.g. HIV, herpes. Even if it can be cured, it can cause damage to reproductive organs before treatment is started--it's more of an issue for females, usually.

 

Marriage is a public acknowledgement of a couple's commitment and bonding to each other. It's ideal if you can wait because sex is a physical commitment and I think it's treated with far too much disdain in the American culture. I'm not going to look down my nose if a couple decides that they don't want to wait. What I do think they should do is wait until there's a definitive commitment if not the wedding day, and be faithful to each other. It's not just a physical act, and for women in particular it can have a very emotional aspect to it, and that needs to be taken more seriously. In that respect I agree with Mace that there's a bonding aspect to the act that cannot be denied. I'll disagree that one has to do the wild thing with several people before marriage to figure out your likes/dislikes. You can do that after marriage just as well.

Jimbo and I never had been with anyone else, and there was no difficulty figuring things out. There's a zillion books/websites/etc. on sex if someone needs help thinking up new ways to rattle the rafters. What a couple needs to do is be honest with each other about likes and dislikes, what works and what doesn't, be willing to try something that the other likes. I will say that there's a certain advantage to being in a very long term relationship. There are things we've learned about each other that can only come with a lot of time/experience with that one person, and there's a certain depth (for lack of a better term) that is impossible to achieve by being with someone only a few weeks or months.

 

Now, if you ask me about abstinence in regards to my daughter, I'm looking to find a good cloistered convent and a chastity belt to keep her away from all the horny males out there. I don't mind the idea that she'll marry someone someday and perhaps have children of her own. I do mind the fact that if I want grandchildren, it means someone has to touch my daughter.

[Prime]

Now, if you ask me about abstinence in regards to my daughter, I'm looking to find a good cloistered convent and a chastity belt to keep her away from all the horny males out there.

I'm going the rockingchair/porch/shotgun route.

[Jae Onasi]

I'm going the rockingchair/porch/shotgun route.

 

Or the Hummer ad approach with the Father talking to 'Brian'

 

Brian, a young man: "Hello sir, I came to pick up your daughter."

 

Father: "Oh, hello, Brian. I was just finishing up sharpening the steak knives. My daughter will be down in a minute. Why don't we go out to the garage?"

 

(sound of garage door opening)

 

"Know what this is?"

 

"It's a hummer, sir."

 

"That's right, Brian. It's got 3600 horsepower, can go up a 35 degree incline and traverse a 16 inch vertical wall. How tall are you, Brian?"

 

"6 feet, sir"

 

"This hummer's got a 72 inch bed. That means it can take something about your size into the middle of nowhere. And I do mean _nowhere_, Brian."

 

Girl in background: "Brian, is that you?"

 

Father: "What time will my first-born be home, Brian?"

 

Brian, in a very nervous voice: "9pm, sir!"

 

Father: "Perfect."

[Emperor Devon]

Brian, a young man: "Hello sir, I came to pick up your daughter."

 

Father: "Oh, hello, Brian. I was just finishing up sharpening the steak knives. My daughter will be down in a minute. Why don't we go out to the garage?"

 

Go back to 1950, Jae.

 

To the original point, I agree with you. It's good to see someone else who supports abstinence.

[Rogue Nine]

I'll be 16 in a month, but I disagree that we really could be mature to know what love is. Not because we haven't grown physiologically or mentally, persay, but because our love hasn't experienced the trials and tribulations only adults would have.

Speak for yourself.

I, like most others here, have problems conceiving of a situation that teenagers might go through that is comparable to the hardships adults go through in terms of love. A rough example to appease our inquisitiveness, perhaps?

 

At our ages, life is generally much easier and less stressful than working everything out on your own.

Fair point. Yes, our lives are easier than, say, Mace's or Jae's. I've never disputed that. But again, you're over-generalising. There are teens out there who do have to work everything out on their own. We can be just as mature - indeed, even more mature - than someone their age(s).

Before, you said something about hating it when you are placed under a stereotype. This indicates to me that you consider yourself an exception to the general trend with regards to maturity and love and all that. However, you concede Tyrion's point here that, yes your lives are much easier than that of adults. Therefore, your following point about how there are teenagers who do have to work everything out on their own and garner maturity that way is rendered moot with regards to you, since you obviously do not fall into that category. It really has no place in this argument, since we're talking about you specifically, not some abstract generality.

 

Not to say that getting married so young would never work, but any love we have now is largely untested beyond mild high school intrigue.

You must have missed the post where I mentioned that my girlfriend and I are talking about getting married, yes - but not for over five years. Probably more like ten. We're not talking about getting married in a week or anything. We're young. Not stupid.

I am in full concurrence with Tyrion's sentiments again; thankful that you have given yourself time before taking the big leap into marriage. If in 5-10 years, you both still feel the same way about each other, then more power to you. But realize that a relationship involves two people. So while you both now may feel the same way about each other, who is to say that her feelings are not going to change about you? You both have some very big, very life-altering changes ahead of you and while your notion of love may persevere, hers may not. In fact, they both may not, which is what almost always happens. Your zeal and passion for your love is a very nice thing, especially in this day and age. However, I do not think it wise to allow your feelings to override any and all advice given to you.

 

I am not rooting for you to fail. I would like to think that no one here is, but I cannot speak for everyone. I am just saying that despite the fact that "you've heard it all before", I think you should stop and consider where us older folk are coming from before brushing us off as people who don't understand your general situation and/or are hoping you crash and burn. If anything, we're just giving advice. And please don't try to take the fact that we have more experience than you away from us.