SilentScope001 Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 ED states that it would be best to have an argument of TSL vs. KOTOR here. So, here we go. I really hate flaming, but anyway... I prefer TSL more than KOTOR. TSL was a bit more serious, and a bit more darker than KOTOR. And...um...that's about it. There are problems with TSL, I admit it. Countless bugs, characters with incredibly lame backgrounds, and a plot twist you can see coming. I still prefer it regardless. This is why I hate this argument in general, due to the fact that TSL and KOTOR can both be considered lame games. Frankly, they are both good games for different people. People who love traidtional Star Wars play KOTOR. People who love ethical relativism play TSL. TSL and KOTOR are both two different games made for two different groups. Just because I love TSL does not make KOTOR a bad game. It tells more about my personality than about the game itself... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Master Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 Well, I agree that both games are good, but I liked TSL more than KOTOR, to the fact that it was a more darker story, and yes, the background of some of the characters were lame. And, liking a game better than other tells me about my personality?mmm.....I have never thought of that...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlo El Sanchez Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 In my opinion, TSL was not that good, im all for KOTOR on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diego Varen Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 TSL and no, you didn't hear me wrong, TSL. KOTOR is overrated and too similar to the Original Trilogy. TSL was different, better characters, better Sith (Except Nihilus), longer gameplay and better PC. Yes, I know TSL is incomplete, but it is still better for me, in my opinion. KOTOR is good, but not as good as its underrated sequel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristy Kistic Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 They both had their strong points. Kotor had a much better storyline to me. On the other hand TSL introduced better game features plus the fact that I really liked certain characters. Namely Visas, Bao-Dur, and Atton. I did not like the fact that TSL actually reduced the poly count of a lot of the models rather than increase them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlo El Sanchez Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 TSL and no, you didn't hear me wrong, TSL. KOTOR is overrated and too similar to the Original Trilogy. TSL was different, better characters, better Sith (Except Nihilus), longer gameplay and better PC. Yes, I know TSL is incomplete, but it is still better for me, in my opinion. KOTOR is good, but not as good as its underrated sequel. I feel the exact opposite way lol, i recon TSL is beyond overrated and too many people talk about it like KOTOR never existed! also KOTOR has a better stoyline, the good points of TSL in my opinion are that yes, the game was alot longer and more challenging and the characters were better. But tell me if im crazy but dosn't TSL have sort of copy characters...Atton Rand seemed to resemble Carth as in his position of piloting the Ebon Hawk and how he has the same technique with blasters. Mandalore - Canderous....a Mandalorian, tough, ruthless close to dark character... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diego Varen Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 I feel the exact opposite way lol, i recon TSL is beyond overrated and too many people talk about it like KOTOR never existed! also KOTOR has a better stoyline, the good points of TSL in my opinion are that yes, the game was alot longer and more challenging and the characters were better. But tell me if im crazy but dosn't TSL have sort of copy characters...Atton Rand seemed to resemble Carth as in his position of piloting the Ebon Hawk and how he has the same technique with blasters. Mandalore - Canderous....a Mandalorian, tough, ruthless close to dark character... I admit that KOTOR has a good storyline with good characters like Carth and Bastila, but TSL's story had something different to offer. Sometimes I prefer new storylines, while other times, I like the storylines to stay the same. Atton was similar to Carth, as he was the pilot, but they are two different characters, with different back stories. TSL has better gameplay for me too, but KOTOR is good, it's just I prefer TSL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Architect Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 *SPOILERS* YOU’VE BEEN WARNED! In my opinion, KotOR is overrated. All it was was a simple, predictable, stereotypical black and white/good vs. evil Star Wars story with lame/rip off basic archetype characters except for Jolee, HK-47 and in some ways, Canderous. *Yawn.* Instead of creating an evolving story, BioWare just wrote the story around an in my opinion two feeble and predictable plot twists, thanks to the countless clues given in the game. While I’m not accusing those who didn’t figure out the twists idiots, since I’d be a condescending jerk to do that, I can understand why those including myself believe that the plot twists were easy to figure out in KotOR. What many people overlook is that BioWare has a lot to thank for the OT. Call these examples clichés, tributes or similarities if you want but you can see the connections between: Ebon Hawk/Millennium Falcon Vandar/Yoda Malak/Vader Revan/Luke Zaalbar/Chewbacca Star Forge/Death Star KotOR plot twist/ESB plot twist T3-M4/R2-D2 Bastila/Leia The list goes on. What would KotOR be without these things in the OT to draw inspiration and ideas from? What gave it that ‘Star Wars’ feel was these kind of rip off similarities, plus the ‘hero goes on an adventure with a group of companions to stop the bad guy with the super weapon’. It’s not original enough for me to give it the thumbs up. Still, the clichés were used in a good way, and make no mistake about it, KotOR was one hell fun game to play, but it certainly is not some thought provoking classic tale that some people make it out to be, because the plot was simple, safe, predictable, very linear, unoriginal and never strayed from the old Star Wars rumblings. Now, moving on to TSL. Well, first off I can tell you that TSL isn’t as popular as KotOR, because of the cut content and the apparent ‘non Star Wars’ feel it has. Now why isn’t TSL very Star Warsy like KotOR was? It is because Star Wars stories are aimed at all audiences, and this includes kids. So Star Wars stories are usually simplistic so the younglings can follow it. Same goes with the characters. TSL however, was not like this. Apart from the annoying cut content, TSL plot and characters were ambiguous, but in a good way. Tell me one thing (that cut content didn’t explain) that we needed to know in TSL but never knew? TSL isn’t considered non Star Warsy because it doesn’t have villains, Jedi, ships, lightsabers and is not set in space, because ah, it has all that. I liked how not everything was dumbed down and spoon fed to you, like it was in KotOR. It insults your intelligence. I liked it how there was more character interaction in TSL, as opposed to KotOR, where your companions just stood around in the Ebon Hawk doing nothing, waiting for you to level up as they spoon fed you their back stories. How silly is that? The story was too stagnant in KotOR, as plot events were only triggered by the PC, as opposed to TSL, where events were happening around you and weren’t just PC trigger related. All KotOR was was just straight forward Star Wars. TSL breathed something fresh into the Star Wars universe. It delved into what defines the force a lot, it questioned the teachings of the Jedi and the Sith and showed their flaws, and explored the ‘grey philosophy’. The LS and the DS were examined in a much deeper, more mature way than how it was cartoonishly portrayed as in KotOR. More distinct shades of ‘grey = thumbs up from me’. It also had Kreia, such a deep, well written character who was awesomngly voice acted. She, in my opinion, is by far the best in both KotOR’s. Aside from the catastrophe ending, the story in TSL was much more compelling as you came to learn more and more as you continued your adventure. TSL’s story had more layers to it, and didn’t rely on an entirely too obvious and overrated in my opinion plot twist to carry the story. What is this garbage I hear about how the Kreia plot twist was oh so predictable? Finding out that Kreia is Darth Traya and is the villain you’re supposed to stop wasn’t surprising in the slightest, as it was never meant to be a plot twist in the first place. Some people seemed to have missed the point there. Obsidian made no effort to hide it, nor did Kreia. Even the player was allowed to distrust her from the beginning. The point with Kreia was to discover why she chose to tag along with the Exile in the first place, or in other words, what her motivations were for following you (the Exile). Her intentions only become clear towards the end. So her betrayal wasn't expected to be unexpected, the point was to find out why she would betray you and why she followed you, which in my opinion, wasn’t exactly clear until the latter stages of the game. Another reason why TSL isn’t as popular as KotOR is because you don’t learn everything about all the characters, but I ask, so what? TSL is supposed to be dark and mysterious. Every character, except Disciple, had interesting back stories and personalities, but even though you don’t learn many details about their backgrounds, you ah, have more important things to do. Since when do you learn a lot about a characters background in a few conversations? Why would any of TSL party members tell you a lot about their background when first off, they didn’t know the Exile very long, and secondly, the plot, the events that are occurring in the game, is more important to discuss. People claim that Darth Nihilus was an under developed character and while that may be true, I don’t agree. Firstly, if you believe in one theory about Nihilus’ like I do, you’d know he has a massive background. Secondly, I don’t think we’re supposed to learn much about him. As Jediphile has said, I think Nihilus is supposed to be like Dracula in Stoker’s original novel. You never find out who Dracula really is. You learn his name and where he's from, but that's it. His motives or how he became what he became is never revealed. And personally I think he works better that way, because the evil that is unknown is more threatening than the evil you understand. Nihilus is just the same. There are some secrets that should not be unveiled, because they work better if left unmasked. Why does a story need to drag all of its secrets into the light for it to be good? TSL is more realistic than KotOR in its story telling in my opinion. Us humans don’t know everything there is to know. Without the influence, cooperation or agreement of someone who could potentially teach you something you don’t know, you won’t learn what they know (influence) and without asking questions and working towards acquiring that information, you won’t learn everything. TSL worked this way, KotOR did not. I just feel that KotOR was more of a kids story and TSL had a much more mature and realistic outlook to it. That is why I like it more than KotOR. Sorry for the long post, but that’s my two cents. Here’s hoping Obsidian make KotOR III. With a workable time schedule, I’m confident they’ll make the best game of all time! That’s right, you heard me. I'll conclude by saying that TSL isn't as popular as KotOR because unfortunately ambiguous plots/characters aren’t popular, despite the fact that TSL was done in a good ambiguous way, not in the lazy crap way. I believe TSL is underrated and deserves more credit, as opposed to KotOR, which is overrated if you ask me. I think TSLRP mod or not, TSL is still much better than KotOR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bee Hoon Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 TSL. The plot is far more complex, and the characters have way more depth. Even Revan was a pretty straightforward character until you hear Kreia speculating about his true intentions in TSL. In fact, straightforward is the exact word to describe KOTOR. Off topic: Is it just me, or is Kavar's head based on Canderous'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FiEND_138 Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 I'm going to have to agree with The Architect on this. He nailed a lot of my opinions/complaints of the 2 games as well. (Just in a much more articulate/longer posted kind of way.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaelastraz Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 Hehe Architecs always tends to write an essay when it comes to that question.. I don't think that you can "argue" what is better here... all you can do is express your opinion. I prefered Kotor. Environment, dialogs, story, music. That worked so extremely well together in Kotor. It created an unbelievable tight atmosphere. And atmosphere is the most important thing in RPGs for me. I agree, the plot is by no means innovative. It's classic. But that is not necessarily a bad thing. It suits starwars. The characters were not that deep and realistic. But starwars tends to have the good guys and the bad guys. And the han solo types. That's it. What about TSL? First of all, it is unsatisfying. It feels rushed towards the end. I'm not willing to judge it on what it could have been (cut content etc). The dialogs in TSL are almost as good as in Kotor, but the PC is an empty shell to me, unsympathetic for reasons I cannot explain. The other characters are rather boring to me (apart from Atton and Kreia). What about villains.. well Kotor had a classic one, well done imo TSL had Nihilus, a bad joke if you ask me, Sion, ok but nothing special, and Kreia, who was well done. Kreia is really the big plus of TSL. I thought it was innovative how an obviously manipulating character is your mentor. It wasn't a surprise that you fight her in the end. And I don't think it was intented as a big surprise. Anyway, where is the turn around point in TSL then? When you learn Kreia's real intentions and motives? I guess so. But those motives and intentions were not well thought out and lame to me. TSL just wasn't as fascinating as Kotor. It lacked atmosphere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan7 Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 I don't think that you can "argue" what is better here... all you can do is express your opinion. Nah... your just wrong ... Join us on the DS of the KotOR franchise Hehe, personally I prefered TSL... while I think KotOR was an awesome game and I found it hugely enjoyable and a 'typical' SW expierance. I also think it did just rip off the OT too get its plot etc. In exact opposite to what you think Vaelastraz personally I think that TSL had far more atmosphere too it than KotOR. Personally I think Nihilus was an awesome bad guy and would have liked to have seen much more of him... maybe a cut-scene of him and Vandar having a lighsaber duel and him defeating Vandar. For alot of the above reasons (read The Architects post) I think TSL is the superior game, I also relate far more to the Exile as a charachter than I do too Revan. Thats what I think... Maybe one of the Mods could add a poll at the start that we could all vote it. But basically this just comes down to personal preferance and what you want from a Star Wars game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titanius Anglesmith Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 Holy crap, Architect, you really go all out, don't you? I agree with pretty much everything The Architect said, especially the part about the character interaction. I loved how whenever I would come back to the ship, I'd find Bao-Dur upgrading a droid, or Visas, Brianna, and Mira having a little spat. I mean, all those guys on the Ebon Hawk have got quite a bit of free time while you and 2 others are runnin' around causin' trouble, so they must be doing something, right? So anyway, if you couldn't tell before, I think TSL is better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediMaster12 Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 I am taking the middle ground here since both games have their good points and their bads points and I am not about to embark on that like Architect. I have no preference of one over the other because they have a purpose, to entertain me when my brain is on the overload with school. Both games have reduced my stress levels during finals that I have only had one nosebleed during finals week in the fall quarter the last two years. They both give me ideas when I create my characters in my fics. I particularly used examples of Kreia's manner with my current baddie Draconis who is also not above being brutal like Malak. For those that don't know, Draconis is a character from my fic WIP Heart of Deception. I take the middle ground because frankly I don't care. They are entertaining to me and I still play them each in their turn. When I defeat Malak about 100 times, then I switch discs and play to defeat the Sith Lords 100 times and back again. Yeah it could be construed as boring but I go for long stretches of time without playing anything and then I pick it up. So really I have no preference over the other because I like them both. Yeah I have favorite characters from both but really in the overall game, it has a purpose and it accomplishes it: to entertain my poor worn out self that has no social life because my nose is always in a book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaelastraz Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 There has to be one which entertains you more... Kotor or TSL? Join me and you will receive ultimate power! Oh wait... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miltiades Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 TSL for me. Great characters (with a lot of great voice-acting) and a very good story, better than Kotor's, IMO. And I agree with basically everything The Architect said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavroche Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 KotOR and TSL or totally different, IMO, at least concerning the plot. K1 is a blink to the Trilogy. Same plot, same characters... The ability to visit Tatooine and Kashyyyk (in Rwookrrorro, of course... 'cause it's Chewbacca's home), but the most important blink for me is the character of Revan, completly filled with the Skywalker's story : - skilled in repairing/making droids - skilled in swoop race/pod race - secret identity - confrontation against a tall Sith speaking with a robotical voice... - ... on a frightening war space station... - ... which is destroyed in the end Not to mention the other characters' resemblances mentionned by Architect (though you forgot Mission, and the duo "scroundel/wookie")... I love this game, though, but for totally different reasons that K2. K2, then, which has a darker story, innovative (though of course, there are references to the Trilogy), very new characters, original villains... And many different ways to reach for the end (while K1 was compelling you to follow the Jedi's orders until the Rakatan Temple) and, in cut content, several ways to end the game. I love them both, but my preference goes to K2. I enjoy playing K1 for very different reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediMaster12 Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 There has to be one which entertains you more... Kotor or TSL? Join me and you will receive ultimate power! Oh wait... Nope. They are what they are: games. Ultimate power? If that involves being known in the realm of academia, maybe but like I said, I have no preference. Entertainment is the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q Posted January 26, 2007 Share Posted January 26, 2007 The Architect is correct. I have to, rather begrudgingly, give the nod to TSL. Begrudgingly because TSL's incomplete nature, inferior graphics and numerous bugs really pi$$ed me off the first time I played it. Its more original, complicated and deep plot (a gutsy move for OE) along with the terrific voice acting, Sarah Kestelman's (Kreia) in particular, along with the several gameplay improvements made by OE (like the influence system) finally won me over. Not to say that KotOR1's plot sucked by any stretch of the imagination. I loved it and still do. And this is before one considers that TSL's deficiencies have largely been or will be resolved by the modding community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allronix Posted January 26, 2007 Share Posted January 26, 2007 There is a certain je ne sais quoi that makes something a paragon of its particular universe, a quality that makes one point to it and say "THAT'S what the series or show is supposed to look like." For example, a Blake's 7 fan often holds up "Star One." DS9 fans will hold up "In the Pale Moonlight." Firefly fans point to "War Stories." Final Fantasy fans tend to cluster around 7 and 10. You can't put your finger on what makes something a prime example of a given universe, but you sure know it when you see it. K1 is a prime example when it comes to Star Wars. There's all the little touches that make Star Wars Star Wars and not Star Trek, X-Files, Firefly, Final Fantasy, or Blake's 7. There's this small group of people on a smuggler's boat. There's a scary looking meglomaniac that needs to be halted. There are a half-dozen distinct planets with their own headaches. The fate of the galaxy rests on small decisions and frail emotions more than it does lightsabers and guns. Humor clashes with sorrow, romance finds a way, families are united or ruined on the turn of a single card. It may have shamelessly lifted from the Classic trilogy, but c'mon, Jedi George ripped off chapter and verse of Joseph Campbell's thesis. If the story was merely simple, derivitive, and forgettable, why would we even be here? It was meant to FEEL like the old trilogy, and all that seat-of-the-pants excitement that made for movie theater lines five blocks long. (Yes, I'm old enough to have seen ROTJ in a theater, and the line WAS that long!) I also credit K1 with being fans enough to know how Star Wars worked, but not afraid to point out some of its shortcomings. Yuthura Ban did more to explain the Sith than 6 movies could. Jolee Bindo had plenty of unflattering things to say about the institution of the Jedi. The Jedi weren't universally loved or respected. If K1 was the Classic Trology, K2 was the prequels. While they had excellent stuff in their own right, they suffered by comparison. It's much darker and drearier, romance is a joke, and you know everyone is screwed regardless of how hard they try. It's got some AMAZING concepts, but the confusing plot makes those concepts hard to follow. Splitting the antagonism among 4 characters weakened them all, and gave none the right amount of screentime. Nihilus, in particular, got shafted. What a hell of a concept and what a waste it turned out to be. Gathering the Jedi Masters turned out to be pointless - as did the Clone War. And behind it all, there was some elderly Sith playing everyone for a fool. It felt, at times, that the writers of K2 wanted to deconstruct and discredit the same je ne sais quoi the writers of K1 ran with. The Jedi are universally hated in K2, Atton Rand's dialogue could have been written by Davin Brin (see "Star Wars on Trial"). The idea of destroying the Force and those who can wield it while letting people struggle for their destiny is also very Brin-esque. It had lightsabers, robes, Hutts, and planet-hopping, but didn't feel like Star Wars. Now, characters. How many of us could not go Darkside in K1? And what is the primary reason I keep hearing as to why? You care too much about the characters you end up having to kill. It's easy to put Mission Vao into the "spunky kid" archetype, but harder to actually raise your saber and kill her. She's a bunch of pixels - reload your game. But the writing and the sense of immersion work against you, and that's where that crew showed their genius. By comparison, killing off Kreia was barely a "meh." I was never as absorbed in the stories of my crew. You got nothing until you hit full influence, they dumped the story on you, then nada. Crappy mechanics. Speaking of crappy mechanics, TSL locks up my bro-in-law's X-box and crashes my computer with annoying frequency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreenGoblin Posted January 26, 2007 Share Posted January 26, 2007 Great post. I agree pretty much on all points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaelastraz Posted January 26, 2007 Share Posted January 26, 2007 Allronix, that's almost exactly what I think. But I can't put in into words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlo El Sanchez Posted January 26, 2007 Share Posted January 26, 2007 KotOR and TSL or totally different, IMO, at least concerning the plot. (snipped) I love them both, but my preference goes to K2. I enjoy playing K1 for very different reasons. What i think too. Except im for KOTOR insted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titanius Anglesmith Posted January 26, 2007 Share Posted January 26, 2007 Each game has it's high points. K1's characters were deep and like-able, K2's story was more mature and overall more enjoyable, and it had some fancy new features. I just hope that K3 can bring all those things together to make one extraordinary game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediMaster12 Posted January 26, 2007 Share Posted January 26, 2007 That is probably the idea EagerWeasel. I have heard suggestions on improving the influence system and the like. We might see a bit of both. For now, I am content playing them for the entertainment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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