Arcesious Posted April 20, 2008 Author Share Posted April 20, 2008 Very helpful advice... especially from that quote Jonathan7 posted... I'll have to explore all of the sides thoroughly now, and I have a lot to go through, so if you have anything else you suggest I look into then I'll add it to my list... Hopefully I can reason with my parents over this... It probably won't be pretty first time they hear about it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan7 Posted April 20, 2008 Share Posted April 20, 2008 Very helpful advice... especially from that quote Jonathan7 posted... I'll have to explore all of the sides thoroughly now, and I have a lot to go through, so if you have anything else you suggest I look into then I'll add it to my list... Hopefully I can reason with my parents over this... It probably won't be pretty first time they hear about it... Its my own essay on how I determine the truth as far as I can, I'm glad it was of help I hope that things go well with your parents, Achilles is also correct that speaking to a neutral person (face to face) will proove greatly helpful for support and bouncing ideas off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcesious Posted April 20, 2008 Author Share Posted April 20, 2008 After all of these new things I've never considered that I'm considering now thnaks to all this advice, everything has never been more clear to me... It finally all makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Jones Posted April 20, 2008 Share Posted April 20, 2008 Arcesious, the most important thing of all is that, whatever you do, be true to yourself. And whatever you feel about your parent's religion, you should respect them and their views, after all you want them to respect you, too. Bear in mind that the religion of Christianity is of old age, and like many other religions contains good, valuable teachings and ideas. Its main intention is not to explain the things of our modern world or to find the ultimate answer to whatever universal question. Also, before you go out and tell anybody that you're an atheist or whatever, be sure you really feel like that. When you want your parents to be able understand you and your thoughts, you first must understand yourself. Then, don't go to tell anybody just because someone said so. Talk with your parents about your thoughts when you feel like doing so and when you find it appropriate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Vougalot Posted April 20, 2008 Share Posted April 20, 2008 Evolution and Christianity need not be at odds. The Old Testament speaks in parables, such is the case with the creation and fall of Man. We don't know how God created the universe and Man, we only know that He created Man in His own image a likeness and that they sinned (probably a sin of disobedience), so that the image was darkened and the likeness was lost; and that God had to come to us in the flesh, taking our nature upon Himself in order to sanctify it. It makes no difference to me if Man was literally formed of clay or if he was the pinnacle of evolution. The theological truths are still there. As for Noah's ark: yes, it is true that this is a Hebrewized version of a Babylonian myth (Did I get that right?) that can be explained by natural causes (i.e. a glacier left over from the ice age melting and causing the Black Sea to overflow). With Christianity it makes no difference whether or not the really was a man named Noah who built a floating zoo or if there really was a man named Jonah swallowed by a whale. These are parables meant to teach a deeper truth which one only realizes in Christ: the former tale illustrates the Church (symbolized by the Ark) saving us from the flood of sin, and the latter is a prefiguration of Christ in the tomb for three days. Whether or not these tales took place is irrelevant: but their foreshadowings, inspired by the Holy Spirit, were written on paper long before Jesus and taught deeper truths about His life, even before His birth. This is how you should read the Old Testament, Arcesious: with Christ in mind. It matters not whether some of the tales are literal or not, or myths inspired by other myths. They have deeper meanings, all pointing towards Jesus Christ in the end. But, as the New Testament says, "All Scripture is inspired by God." (I am horrible at memorizing quotes. I do not know where that quote comes from or if that's exactly what it says, but I'm pretty sure that's from one of Saint Paul's epistles in the New Testament.) Look for the greater Truth. Excellent guides are the Church Fathers' Scripture commentaries. You'll read things you never would have ever picked up on your own. They usually find something about Christ in almost every chapter of every book of the Old Testament, especially Genesis and all the books of the Pentateuch, Isiah and the Psalms. (The Psalms are sometimes even referred to as the "fifth Gospel" for this reason.) In summary: don't sweat it! Don't worry if it isn't rational compared to modern thinking. Look for Christ in those verses! -John, an Eastern Orthodox Christian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcesious Posted April 20, 2008 Author Share Posted April 20, 2008 Don't worry if it isn't rational compared to modern thinking. Well if I conclude it not to be true using the scientific method and philosophies/logistics of science, why should I believe it? Because it makes me feel good? The message of the Bible is meant to make you feel good, IMO. But I'm not scared of death or the hardships of life anymore. I don't need a crutch anymore. I will only beleive what I know as true as proven/disproven by reliable science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan7 Posted April 20, 2008 Share Posted April 20, 2008 Evolution and Christianity need to be at odds. I'm presuming in the context that was a typo? If not I'm a Christian and believe in evolution. With regards your argument in general, I will merely quote this; Charles Larson produced a simply wonderful quote; "While spiritual insight or faith is one valid measure in spiritual matters, true spiritual insight never directly contradicts valid intellectual insight or facts in the physical world. Faith may go beyond reason, but does not go against it. It never blatantly contradicts the facts which we perceive with our God-given common sense. Faith and fact point in a single direction. When they do not, something is seriously wrong…A willingness to accept facts as they exist, and to learn to use them to test the views one holds rather than falling back on subjective experience or rationalizations, is the first step towards discovering genuine truth." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCarter426 Posted April 20, 2008 Share Posted April 20, 2008 I will only beleive what I know as true as proven/disproven by reliable science. That's what it all comes down to. If you need/desire proof, then faith and belief are not for you. It's that simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totenkopf Posted April 20, 2008 Share Posted April 20, 2008 I'd have to agree that Christianity and evolution are not mutually exclusive. Some branches of Christianity, however........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan7 Posted April 20, 2008 Share Posted April 20, 2008 That's what it all comes down to. If you need/desire proof, then faith and belief are not for you. It's that simple. While I do not wish to turn this religious as there are enough discission of that ilk in KC. Why do you assume, that I do not have proof sufficient for my own standards as posted earlier? I require and need proof and am still a disciple of Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Negative Sun Posted April 20, 2008 Share Posted April 20, 2008 Both science and religion have their limitations, neither can explain everything. Remember that. Faith is always in order at some point unless you want to turn to Nihilsm, which in in turn is quite depressing as it's quite amoral and leads to...It's in the name Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Vougalot Posted April 20, 2008 Share Posted April 20, 2008 I'm presuming in the context that was a typo? If not I'm a Christian and believe in evolution. With regards your argument in general, I will merely quote this; Correct. I meant to say that they need not be at odds. I'll go and correct that now. Thanks. Yeah, what I was basically saying was that we shouldn't be afraid of science or history lest they contradict or hinder our faith. As I've described, I don't think they contradict one another at all. Before humans knew anything about molecular biology or what have you, a narrative about evolution likely would not have made sense. The Genesis account is a parable that teaches the essential truths that the people of that time could understand, and which today's world can still understand regardless of how knowledgeable or unknowledgeable one may be. Interesting quote. I think it backs up what I said quite nicely. I'm not sure if that was what your intention was or not, but thank you. Arcesious, I believe not because it makes me feel or or because it's what I've grown up with (not anymore, at least). I know that Jesus is true for various reasons, but I don't wish to get into that right now because I don't wish to start a drawn-out religious debate. I know how those can go, and I don't wish to be a part of one right now, mainly because Holy Week in the Orthodox Church begins tonight and I intend to spend the duration of that time away from the computer, TV, and the like. Essentially, the God of my Faith is not abstract and His existence has been proven as fact to me. (I just came out of a long period of doubt; but I think God permitted it for a reason.) I won't list those reasons because, as I've said, I don't wish to start a debate at this time. God bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miltiades Posted April 20, 2008 Share Posted April 20, 2008 Since both me and my parents are atheists, and I never doubted my views, I never had that problem. However, my parents had it a bit difficult with their parents when they decided not to baptize me. At that time, they could be very cold to my parents. But in time, my grandparents came to accept it, and, you know, times are changing. In any way, I can't give you much advice but to do what many have told here: seek someone you can freely talk to, examine both sides (and maybe even what's in between them: philosophy!) and be true to yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samuel Dravis Posted April 20, 2008 Share Posted April 20, 2008 OP, If I were you I'd try reading a lot. Particularly things which you don't agree with. I will second Jae's recommendation of C.S. Lewis books - not because I agree with the arguments within, but because they contain useful information for comparison (Lewis' books are a relatively easy read, a byproduct of his skill as a writer). NS, not all roads lead to nihilism or to faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nedak Posted April 20, 2008 Share Posted April 20, 2008 Every single person on these forums have their own ways of thinking. There are Christians ,Atheists, Jews, etc. Everyone needs to leave their views on religion out of this. To everyone who are posting and trying to persuade Arcesious to your beliefs, stop. He never asked what you guys believe in, he just wants to know how to tell his parents what he believes in. My advice to give you Arcesious, is to wait until you're ready and try to gracefully approach the topic. You could even wait until you get older. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan7 Posted April 20, 2008 Share Posted April 20, 2008 Every single person on these forums have their own ways of thinking. There are Christians ,Atheists, Jews, etc. Everyone needs to leave their views on religion out of this. To everyone who are posting and trying to persuade Arcesious to your beliefs, stop. He never asked what you guys believe in, he just wants to know how to tell his parents what he believes in. My advice to give you Arcesious, is to wait until you're ready and try to gracefully approach the topic. You could even wait until you get older. Who on earth has attempted to persuade Arcesious to their views in this thread? However lets say I believe in a the Flying Spaggetti Monster, and that to get into heaven you must worship Cans of Spaggetti. If you do not do this while alive you will be stuck in a vat or baked beans - a fate worse than death! If I beleive this to be true, surely I should persuade people round to my views, given I believe them to be true and I do not wish for anyone to suffer an eternity in a vat of baked beans! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravnas Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 Who on earth has attempted to persuade Arcesious to their views in this thread? However lets say I believe in a the Flying Spaggetti Monster, and that to get into heaven you must worship Cans of Spaggetti. If you do not do this while alive you will be stuck in a vat or baked beans - a fate worse than death! If I beleive this to be true, surely I should persuade people round to my views, given I believe them to be true and I do not wish for anyone to suffer an eternity in a vat of baked beans! Huh, well that would mean that only Christians have been trying to get him onto their side, because of the lack of an afterlife in atheism, there would be no point to try and save him for something that would never happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totenkopf Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 Naw, the athiests would see themselves as saving someone from a life of illogical repression and a host of other things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan7 Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 Naw, the athiests would see themselves as saving someone from a life of illogical repression and a host of other things. Indeedy... I did consider doing an amusing athiest anology; but thought the first as an example for religion would suffice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravnas Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 Naw, the athiests would see themselves as saving someone from a life of illogical repression and a host of other things. Well, I could dream at least Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcesious Posted April 21, 2008 Author Share Posted April 21, 2008 To everyone who are posting and trying to persuade Arcesious to your beliefs, stop. He never asked what you guys believe in, he just wants to know how to tell his parents what he believes in. I don't mind people telling me their beleifs... Also, if it would help to broaden the discussion, besides the core topic, maybe we could move this to KC's now since it's getting into other areas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jae Onasi Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 To everyone who are posting and trying to persuade Arcesious to your beliefs, stop. He never asked what you guys believe in, he just wants to know how to tell his parents what he believes in. Anyone has the right to post their beliefs or lack thereof. I'm not going to censor that. Also, if it would help to broaden the discussion, besides the core topic, maybe we could move this to KC's now since it's getting into other areas.There are religion threads already in Kavar's--please feel free to continue the discussion in those threads. I think Astro brought up a very good point--since this is such a major decision, it would be wise to seek assistance from professionals to work with you and your parents--school counselor, trusted clergy, etc. We aren't professionals here and we can certainly offer opinions, but it's just not the same as face-to-face professional assistance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcesious Posted April 21, 2008 Author Share Posted April 21, 2008 Well then I guess all the advice that would help has been suggested in this thread, so further discussion in other areas of this should be done in Kavar's. Can anyone suggest a good 'Religion/science' thread we should resurrect? Or should I make a new one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jae Onasi Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 Well then I guess all the advice that would help has been suggested in this thread, so further discussion in other areas of this should be done in Kavar's. Can anyone suggest a good 'Religion/science' thread we should resurrect? Or should I make a new one? Please resurrect one of the others--we have so many already we don't need yet another one for us staff to moderate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcesious Posted April 21, 2008 Author Share Posted April 21, 2008 Well i've searched through Kavr's but I can't find a thread that is actuall disucssing this kind of of thing in the way it is being discussed... So I think it would be best that this thread be moved to Kavar's instead of us resurrecting a half-a-year-old thread via a necro... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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