National pride / Patriotism

[jonathan7]

Personally I'm not a fan of nationalism, so I suppose it follows that I don't like National pride...

 

A few thoughts of mine;

 

I love the way Pride always seems to be instilled in people when other nations have the cheek to question their (very bad) leaders; http://uk.news.yahoo.com/itn/20080715/twl-un-staff-urged-to-stay-at-home-41f21e0.html

 

For the ICC to have done what they have suggests to me they must have some pretty damning evidence, and people's reaction, I think is quite frankly stupid.

 

(Sidenote; I think this guy is guilty of genocide, but why are we only doing this to him, where are the warrants for say Mugabe?)

 

In patriotism stakes I have seen the same with Russians and former President Putin - in that any foreign criticism is brushed off as unfair, wrong and propaganda.

 

Personally I generally have no problems with Brown being criticised; I think Blair should have been (and still should be) charged and put to prison for an illegal war in Iraq. That said I find it highly amusing when say Iran criticises Britain for sexism? That coming from a country where woman can be put in prison from being raped... gimme a break.

 

Thoughts?

[Totenkopf]

Some of it might be "better the devil you know". The world isn't unified, politically or culturally. There is no doubt distrust on all sides of the intentions of outsiders. Question becomes how you are going to remove these people. Invasion, black-ops, assassination, etc...? Look how big a problem removing Aidid became in the 90s or even Saddam in 2003. What do you do about the situation in the wake of the removal? Will someone equally heinous take over? Then there is the other consideration. What if someone wants to turn that power against western or developed govts? Are you willing to just hand over someone to an outfit like the ICC or UN from your own country, especially if you believe the charges are fabricated or merely political? I'm going to hazard a guess that there is a fear of precedent that really blocks many from actually doing anything other than "running their mouths".

 

Nationalism, given how divided the world is, is not in itself that bad a thing. Like everything, though, it's the extreme end that cause the most problems. Should concepts like family loyalty also be abandonned b/c they are abused, at least in the eyes of some people?

[Samuel Dravis]

I think there's a difference between nationalism and national pride. The former I have issues with and the latter I emphatically support. I really like the US as a country, and I've got no problem waving flags around and similar things. However, that liking does not necessarily extend to the current government of the US, or incline me to excuse or justify its actions.

 

I can be realistic about my national government's policies, but that doesn't stop me from liking the rest of my country and showing it. If this kind of national pride is pathetic, then so be it.

[Totenkopf]

I think that you can be proud of your country, as you point out, and not in it's leadership. But the type of national pride where you rally the people to oppose outsiders seems more like the hallmark of extreme nationalism. Pride taken to the next level, where questions of patriotism assume a greater kind of importance than merely whether "our olympic team beat yours". I guess, like any political philosophy, the dangers of something like nationalism are going to depend on the strain in question.

[Astor]

Well, as a born and bred Englishman, and a fan of the Royal Family, National Pride for me means celebrating things like the Queen's Birthdays (especially the trooping of the colour), and other similar events, like VE day, and Armistice Day. Celebrating things that give the country a reason to turn out and feel proud of it's achievements is national pride. Not getting upset because another country has said that it's leader is a criminal.

 

A few weeks ago, my town's regiments came back from Iraq. I was there, cheering and watching them come back. That's National Pride to me, not what those Sudanese are doing.

 

And I'll do all of this without even caring who happens to be the Prime Minister at the time. I'm not there to support our Government, but our head of state, and, by extension the country at large.

 

So no, I don't think that National Pride is pathetic, if you believe in and love your country, you should show it! Americans show the rest of the world how much they love their country, and I think it's great. I don't see that as them supporting their President or whatever, but their pride in the USA.

[True_Avery]

I think there's a difference between nationalism and national pride. The former I have issues with and the latter I emphatically support. I really like the US as a country, and I've got no problem waving flags around and similar things. However, that liking does not necessarily extend to the current government of the US, or incline me to excuse or justify its actions.

 

I can be realistic about my national government's policies, but that doesn't stop me from liking the rest of my country and showing it. If this kind of national pride is pathetic, then so be it.

I agree completely.

[Balderdash]

I find the concept of patriotism more than a bit daft, but I don't really take serious issue with it, either.

[Arcesious]

For me, patriotism and nationism are things be which I can have fun with during the holidays. The country I live in isn't perfect, nor even close, in fact it's horribly messed up, but there's something about 'being proud to be an American' that makes me really happy during the holidays. I bet it's the same way for others, of other countries, except that the 'american' is replaced by whatever county citizen referral they have, such as Russian, Australian, Italian, you know, whatever.

[Nedak]

Patriotism is way overdone in this country.

 

It's become propaganda that is used when you disagree with the country. "You're un-patriotic."

[HerbieZ]

I have never really been patriotic or proud for my country. I don't really know why, but i just never understood it. I respect other people fight for it and fight in the name of it but personally i don't contribute like that in my current job role like others do. If anything, i have more respect for America than i do for England. It's so big and mighty.

[Astor]

If anything, i have more respect for America than i do for England. It's so big and mighty.

 

We might not be as big, but we did have one of the greatest Empires the world has ever known. That, and we've beaten the hell out of France more times than I care to remember.

[Balderdash]

Patriotism is way overdone in this country.

 

It's become propaganda that is used when you disagree with the country. "You're un-patriotic."

Your avy reminded me of a very relevant Bill quote.

 

" 'Are you proud to be an American?' - I was like - I dunno, I didn't have a lot to do with it... my parents f***** there, that's about all..."

[Nedak]

" 'Are you proud to be an American?' - I was like - I dunno, I didn't have a lot to do with it... my parents f***** there, that's about all..."

 

Somebody had to say it sooner or later.

 

You just made it on my <3 list.

[mur'phon]

I really don't see any reason to be proud of my country/to be a "insert nationality". I take no credit for what my nationals did in the past, and have about zero influence on how my country acts/is today. I'll be proud of my own achievements, and leave the "patriot pride" to those who did those great deeds.

[Ray Jones]

I don't give much about nationalities. *Every* nation has its asshats and their misdeeds or other negatives to offer, as well as unique or outstanding persons and other positives.

[nine.roses]

Well, as a born and bred Englishman, and a fan of the Royal Family, National Pride for me means celebrating things like the Queen's Birthdays (especially the trooping of the colour), and other similar events, like VE day, and Armistice Day.

 

Though I'm glad you enjoy it, I dislike the way monarchism is usually required if one wishes to be seen as patriotic. Though I like the Queen as a person; being an atheist and a person who opposes the concept of monarchy in principle I find all the various royal and religious ceremonies and celebrations rather banal. Unlike Canada and the US, England does not have a day for people to celebrate themselves (St. George's Day doesn't quite fit the bill): it seems the only person we ever celebrate is the Queen...

 

We might not be as big, but we did have one of the greatest Empires the world has ever known. That, and we've beaten the hell out of France more times than I care to remember.

 

I mean no slight on your character, but I also dislike the way English - and British - pride is often lodged over 150 years in the past. Though the USA also celebrates various episodes of its short history, it also seems to be able to say "we were the best and still are the best". England, it would appear, has very little to celebrate regarding its current state.

 

It seems we've been relegated to being a "quaint" antique for tourists, and for some odd reason ethnic minorities take offense at the English flag. This, I think, is a very sad state of affairs.

[Q]

I don't give much about nationalities. *Every* nation has its asshats and their misdeeds or other negatives to offer, as well as unique or outstanding persons and other positives.

QFT.

 

Too much national pride begets nationalism and, almost inevitably, war. But it could be said that not enough could result in defeat and servitude.

 

Perhaps it's like alcohol, food and, dare I say, sex in that it should be used, but only in moderation.

[Astor]

Unlike Canada and the US, England does not have a day for people to celebrate themselves (St. George's Day doesn't quite fit the bill): it seems the only person we ever celebrate is the Queen...

 

St George's day would fit the bill pretty nicely if the government could be bothered to celebrate it. I didn't see or hear of any celebrations on the 23rd of April, as the government just seemed to let it pass.

 

And who would you rather celebrate? Gordon 'Happiest man alive' Brown, or Her Majesty? There's really no contest in that regard.

 

 

I mean no slight on your character, but I also dislike the way English - and British - pride is often lodged over 150 years in the past. Though the USA also celebrates various episodes of its short history, it also seems to be able to say "we were the best and still are the best". England, it would appear, has very little to celebrate regarding its current state. [/Quote]

 

Well, we still have a fair bit to be proud of:

 

Our armed forces are some of, if perhaps not the best in the world.

 

The World Wide Web (not the internet, just the interface) was invented by an Englishman.

 

Some of the greatest actors of our age are English - Michael Caine, Christopher Lee, Ian McKellen.

 

There are plenty more reasons, you just need to look in the right places.

 

It seems we've been relegated to being a "quaint" antique for tourists, and for some odd reason ethnic minorities take offense at the English flag. This, I think, is a very sad state of affairs.

 

I think, for a lot of Americans, we're interesting because we gave birth to their country, so maybe it's natural that they want to see how far their roots go.

 

And as for the ethnic minorities finding our country offensive, they should be put on the next boat leaving England and deported if they clearly hate our country so much.

[True_Avery]

QFT.

 

Too much national pride begets nationalism and, almost inevitably, war. But it could be said that not enough could result in defeat and servitude.

 

Perhaps it's like alcohol, food and, dare I say, sex in that it should be used, but only in moderation.

Agreed. You need a balance or either side can get out of control.

 

" 'Are you proud to be an American?' - I was like - I dunno, I didn't have a lot to do with it... my parents f***** there, that's about all..."

Reminds me of a Chris Rock quote:

 

" 'All you did was come out of your mother's p**** on American soil. That's it. That's it! What, you think you're better than somebody from France 'cause you came out of a p**** in Detroit?' "

[nine.roses]

St George's day would fit the bill pretty nicely if the government could be bothered to celebrate it. I didn't see or hear of any celebrations on the 23rd of April, as the government just seemed to let it pass.

 

And who would you rather celebrate? Gordon 'Happiest man alive' Brown, or Her Majesty? There's really no contest in that regard.

 

None of them.

 

Independence Day, Canada Day and Australia Day are there to allow people to celebrate each other - not a central figure. St. George's Day isn't exclusive to England and isn't all-inclusive due to its religious ties; hence the reason why most people couldn't care less. Can you seriously imagine a Muslim, Jew, Sikh or Hindu celebrating St. George's Day - let alone the millions of agnostics and athiests who have recently appeared in England?

 

Well, we still have a fair bit to be proud of:

 

Our armed forces are some of, if perhaps not the best in the world.

 

The World Wide Web (not the internet, just the interface) was invented by an Englishman.

 

Some of the greatest actors of our age are English - Michael Caine, Christopher Lee, Ian McKellen.

 

What exactly do any of those mean to a second-generation Pakistani? Why should any of that make them feel good about themselves or any closer to the people living next door? Is greatness really still judged by military strength?

 

Yes, there is a lot to be proud of, I just think that the wrong things are usually highlighted.

 

And as for the ethnic minorities finding our country offensive, they should be put on the next boat leaving England and deported if they clearly hate our country so much.

 

So they'll hate our country even more? More carrot, less stick.

[Inyri]

It's become propaganda that is used when you disagree with the country. "You're un-patriotic."

I was called un-American because I hate domestic beers.

 

In any case, people just need to make the distinction between "America" and "the American government." This goes for all other nations as well. Us Americans might do well to realize that France and the French people are different as well (yes, I see you eating your freedom fries!). It's a very important line that's typically ignored because folks for some reason seem to like to blame the general populace for what their government is doing. As if most of us have any direct control over that, right?

[Q]

It used to be considered unpatriotic to buy a foreign car.

 

Now it's considered unwise if you don't.

I was called un-American because I hate domestic beers.

You and me both. Some of the microbrews aren't bad, though.

[Relenzo2]

If someone were to criticize me for the nationality of my beers, and tell them the others were better to draw them into spouting patriotism, then say "What exactly am I supposed to be proud of in this country. Why do think I'm in this pit drinking my heart out!" Or somehting of the like. This ain't exactly America's golden age.

I would just emigrate to Canada or something, except for a certain person trying to get into the U.S. sniper core. If I get drafted, I'm gone to ****. I can just picture myself by a fire, shaking, with my gun, saying, "He's out there! He's out there, chugging and energy drink, waiting to kill us!" *screen pans over to the left. He's sitting next to me, drinking a Nos* "Nice story! *Blam Blam!* Hey, I know you!... *Blam!*"

[Ray Jones]

Come again?

[HerbieZ]

I am vaguely reminded of Twitch.