National pride / Patriotism

[mimartin]

I am NOT proud to be an American because it required no effort on my part.[/Quote] Then don’t be. America does not require you to be proud of it.

I think that pride comes from an actual accomplishment. [/Quote]I cannot be proud and respectful of those that worked hard and sacrificed to bring us the freedoms we have today? Why can’t I be proud of my great uncle that died in WWI?

Don't say you're proud of yourself for something you didn't have to work for. [/Quote] How do you know I have not worked for it.

Be proud of those who sacrificed their lives for the state.[/Quote] I believe that is what I wrote:

but I’m still proud and grateful to those that have fought and died to protect my freedoms even when I don’t agree with some of those freedoms.

Be proud of your own accomplishments rather than simply being an American.[/Quote] Never said is was not proud of my own accomplishments, but since that was not the topic of the thread I thought I would stick with national pride for some reason.

 

I'm an American as well... why should I be proud of that?

I don’t know, that is up to you. Since I am not trying to convince you that you should be proud to be an American then I don’t see the point. I was only stating that I am proud to be an American despite this country’s faults.

 

I don't like thinking of myself as an American.[/Quote] Then don’t, put your head in the sand and pretend you are not (like a majority of American's seem to do)

I don't like being a part of a war that was waged upon the whim of greedy individuals.[/Quote] Neither do I.

When I see Americans dying and hearing the ones who caused the war saying that we should support our troops... it sickens me.[/Quote] I agree only I would add that when I see any humans dying needlessly it sickens me and that includes the Iraqis. I still support the troops, but I’m not telling you to. I don’t support those that ordered them to be there.

Although I didn't have any influence on the war one way or another, I'm still a part of the state that waged it. [/Quote] This is the reason the American people have lost their power. We allow the people in Washington to tell us what is important instead of writing our representatives and tell them what is important.

Hundreds of thousands of deaths(murders) resulted from the war in Iraq. I don't want to be a part of that, but I am.

Agreed. I feel the quilt for allowing the war in Iraq to take place because I went against my conscience and voted for an idiot because I was more concern about my pocket book than the American people. Now I have deaths on my conscience, my pocket book is empty, and the idiot got a second term (at least I can say I was only fooled once).

[TheExile]

I can sense a disturban... er... I can feel another fight is coming =/

Hope it won't be so.

[Web Rider]

Then don’t, put your head in the sand and pretend you are not (like a majority of American's seem to do)

 

I don't think the majority pretend not to be Americans. They just define what it means to be an American differently. Without one standard, it's easy to take a straight line and say "all these people don't fit" when really, there is no standard.

 

When a country is founded on dissent and the ability to speak your mind, pretty much everything goes.

[mimartin]

I don't think the majority pretend not to be Americans. They just define what it means to be an American differently. Without one standard, it's easy to take a straight line and say "all these people don't fit" when really, there is no standard.

 

When a country is founded on dissent and the ability to speak your mind, pretty much everything goes.

I agree with you and that is why I used the word seem in my comment. That said, very good post and description of the lack of description of what it means to be an American.

[Darth_Yuthura]

Odds are that I'm throwing out issues and not giving solutions or suggestions. Most of the issues I brought up are already known by those who are posting.

 

Pride is the feeling of pleasure or satisfaction in one’s achievements. Most people address how they have pride for the achievments of those who have sacrificed for the state. That is not pride, it’s respect or admiration. If National pride means this, then I would support the idea completely.

 

The issue I have is that most Americans take pride in the achievments or sacrifices of others. My conflict and hate for 'national pride' comes not from the idea... it comes from those who have certain beliefs, but don't have deeds to back them. Since I have not been in the Military, I don't have the right to criticize one who has sacrificed for this state. Many Americans supported the war in Iraq only because it didn't directly influence their own lives. If it meant having to participate in the war, themselves... how many would have supported it?

 

I respect those that have sacrificed for this state, but I do not take pride in something that was given to me. When I set an example for others to follow, then I take pride in that. When others are willing to take actions that I will not... I treat them with respect.

[RyuuKage]

To be truthful, the only one of those that's mostly humanity is Advancement. It's up in the air if certain animals that are known to be highly intelligent, such as dolphins, some species of ape, and elephants, are not sentient. And just about every living thing is curious, has free will(save maybe ants and hive-minded bugs), and has fun.

 

if they were sentient, then they'd be able to learn how to communicate with us (and not just parroting like they do with apes who "learn" how to talk). They'd also be more likely to have more "human" (for lack of a better term) features in their general behavior.

[Web Rider]

if they were sentient, then they'd be able to learn how to communicate with us (and not just parroting like they do with apes who "learn" how to talk). They'd also be more likely to have more "human" (for lack of a better term) features in their general behavior.

 

Just because a species does not build cities and roads, does not mean they are not mean they are not sentient. Dolphins exhibit many of the same things humans do, they are playful, inquisitive, social creatures that are highly intelligent.

 

So far, no apes have learned to speak our language. I think one learned to speak sign language. yes they were taught and arguably they are more primitive than humans, but I don't see how you can shoot that down as "parroting". They are giving a response they thought up based on the language taught to them.

 

Furthermore, ability to do something does not equal desire or physical capabilities. A lion may be able to understand human speech, but lack the desire or physical ability to respond. Language also, does not denote speech, otherwise you are saying mutes are not sentient. Language for certain species may be defined by very particular movements of fins, paws, tails, ears or whatever.

 

Additionally, your point also states that humanity is not sentient. If a part of sentience is the ability to learn the languages of other species, then humanity is not sentient, since last I checked, you cannot be taught Dog or Cat, or Lion or Dolphin, and only a handful of people claim to understand them, and have offered up no ways of teaching the rest of humanity how to communicate. Following your logic, if humans were sentient, we'd be able to learn the languages of the animals.

[SW01]

National pride is an important thing, especially in times of crisis. Do you really think we could have rallied to fend off Nazism in the 1940s without that sense of community that national pride entails? It's just what we need now that most of the West is suffering from inflation.

 

I am proud to be British. I support Her Majesty The Queen wholeheartedly. I support our armed forces. I am proud of all this country has done for the world over the centuries, from the abolition of slavery, to technological advances too many to list, to being the bulwark against evil and tyranny.

 

With that, though, must come regret for all the wrongs that were committed. In Northern Ireland specifically, the thirty years of violence that we had to endure, the murder of police officers and civilians and constant bombings is a source of shame. But we do our nation more shame to forget it.

 

The binge-drinking culture disgusts me. Knife crime disturbs me. The less said of being led by Bush and Blair into an illegal war the better.

 

With pride in the great, must come shame in the wrong.

[mur'phon]

National pride is an important thing, especially in times of crisis.

 

Luckily, a crisis tend to generate the required pride.

 

Do you really think we could have rallied to fend off Nazism in the 1940s without that sense of community that national pride entails?

 

Yes, because the mere fact that you where attacked would have brought the people together.

 

It's just what we need now that most of the West is suffering from inflation.

 

I find it hard to believe that national pride is neccesary a good thing when it comes to convincing the population that high rates and budget cuts are needed. In Norway, our second largest party () are using the "community" part to convince people that flooding the country with petro cash is a good idea

[Darth_Yuthura]

Pride in itself is not exactly a good thing. It revolves around taking pleasure or satisfaction in one's one deeds. This idea is a bit literal, but it's true.

 

People may not realize it, but it is better to not be satisfied or to be unhappy with the way things are... if it leads to improve oneself or everyone in a nation. The very notion of pride bringing satisfaction to Americans results in the stagnation or progress.

 

A say to forget national pride altogether and embrace the idea that dissatisfaction is much better than was causes stagnation. Too often do Americans talk about the sacrifices of their ancestors... why not the sacrifices one is willing to make to become a better individual. Society is not a single identity, but the culmination of many individuals. Don't look to your society to determine whether or not you should be prideful. Don't look to your accomplishments... look at what else you are capable of achieving and work for it instead.

[veridianblade]

What do you have to say about pride in your nationality?

 

If you show a bit of pride in being British you are automatically labelled a British National Party or National Front member.

 

It is actually against the law in this country to fly the Union Jack outside your house in case you "offend" any minorities, who most of the time don't even care!

 

Britain has become a state where you cannot do anything as it might cause offence and I for one am sick of it!

[Astor]

If you show a bit of pride in being British you are automatically labelled a British National Party or National Front member.[/Quote]

 

I'm proud of being British, yet i'm not a member of the National Front or the BNP. The National Front barely exists anyway.

 

It is actually against the law in this country to fly the Union Jack outside your house in case you "offend" any minorities, who most of the time don't even care![/Quote]

 

Firstly, the Union Jack is the Naval Ensign. It's flag, thank you.

 

It is not against the law to fly the Union Flag in this country. Where did you get that idea from? I know several people who fly our flag, and if it were illegal the Government would be duty-bound to obey their own laws regarding it.

 

If it illegal, someone had also better inform Her Majesty.

 

Britain has become a state where you cannot do anything as it might cause offence and I for one am sick of it!

 

While i'm sorry you feel that way, it's really not as bad as you're making out.

[Balderdash]

Political correctness is annoying, but the kind of people that complain about it all the time are worse (that's not to say that you're one of them).

 

If I actually was proud of being British, I still wouldn't want to fly the flag because frankly it really doesn't seem a very British thing to do. In Britain if you actually care about whether or not you should be putting a flag in front of your house... chances are, you are a nationalist. And I don't think it really is against the law to do so. Not sure who told you that.

 

We're not Americans; we don't really have those smiling picket fence patriots that the US supposedly has. You know, the kind that you see on TV all the time.

[veridianblade]

Firstly, the Union Jack is the Naval Ensign. It's flag, thank you.

 

That is the pre-1801 definition.

I'm not saying go out and fly it, I'm saying we should have the right to do it without being told to take it down.

 

It is not against the law to fly the Union Flag in this country. Where did you get that idea from? I know several people who fly our flag, and if it were illegal the Government would be duty-bound to obey their own laws regarding it.

 

I give, I am going a bit far saying it is illegal, but local councils will ask for it to be taken down in the interests of not offending foreigners, believe me I've known councillors to resign over this.

 

I'm proud of Britain, all I'm trying to say is a number of people are trying to dumb it down.

 

For example, they are trying to say that school history lessons should play down showing kids the glory of British history and start concentrating on the worse parts.

 

We're going to end up with a country that knows all about the slave trade yet nothing about Britains part in the abolition.

[Astor]

If I actually was proud of being British, I still wouldn't want to fly the flag because frankly it really doesn't seem a very British thing to do. In Britain if you actually care about whether or not you should be putting a flag in front of your house... chances are, you are a nationalist.

 

The problem is defining what 'Britishness' is. It's not as clear as with other countries. And a lot of people seem to be ashamed of being British, which is something I don't understand. Germans are proud of being German, and the French are proud of being French, after all.

 

But i'm not a nationalist. Monarchist, maybe, but not a Daily Mail reader.

 

That is the pre-1801 definition

 

Actually, this is:

 

 

I give, I am going a bit far saying it is illegal, but local councils will ask for it to be taken down in the interests of not offending foreigners, believe me I've known councillors to resign over this.[/Quote]

 

Those cases are extreme at best. Most foreigners accept that it is the national flag, and leave it be.

 

For example, they are trying to say that school history lessons should play down showing kids the glory of British history and start concentrating on the worse parts.

 

The problem with that is that 'glory' is often subjective, and therefore difficult to define. What could be glory to one person might be terrible to another.

[Ray Jones]

There already is a thread on national pride/patriotism, only a couple of threads down the page, here.

 

Threads merged. ~tk102

[Balderdash]

The problem is defining what 'Britishness' is. It's not as clear as with other countries. And a lot of people seem to be ashamed of being British, which is something I don't understand. Germans are proud of being German, and the French are proud of being French, after all.

I imagine its because of our god-awful terrible cuisine.

 

But i'm not a nationalist. Monarchist, maybe, but not a Daily Mail reader.

That's just having good sense.

[veridianblade]

I imagine its because of our god-awful terrible cuisine.

 

 

Hey now, I like a nice artery clogging breakfast.

[SW01]

I agree that there seems to be the sense that one must be ashamed of being British. I, personally, am proud of the fact.

 

On the flag, if you think it's bad in England, Scotland or Wales it's ten times worse here. And, of course, foreigners often fail to recognise the Union Flag as NI's banner. This sickens me.

 

We have no worse an Imperial history than any other power - in fact parts of our history are infinitely more worthy of praise.

 

And I join Astor_Kaine in saying this: I am no nationalist, BNP or otherwise, yet I am still proud to be British.

 

EDIT: And if you want a nice artery-clogging breakfast, you can't beat an Ulster Fry!

[Corinthian]

What's all this hate against Nationalism about?

[SW01]

What's all this hate against Nationalism about?

 

British Nationalism (as in the case of the British Nationalist Party) is generally perceived as only a few steps away from facism. Also, most definitions entail the abolition of the monarchy, something the majority of us don't take very kindly to.

 

For Scotland (SNP), Wales (Plaid Cymru) and Northern Ireland (SDLP), nationalist groups are effectively separatist, they wish the respective countries to stand alone, independent of the United Kingdom. Again, the monarchists and 'British' in those areas don't like this idea.

[Corinthian]

Ah, the corruption of words. I thought you were referring to the concept and the practice of Nationalism, not as in the Nationalist Socialists.

[True_Avery]

Ah, the corruption of words. I thought you were referring to the concept and the practice of Nationalism, not as in the Nationalist Socialists.

I think (correct me if I'm wrong) this thread is more about social labels than Nationalism itself. The categories people get placed in depending on how they see their country instead of the practice of Nationalism itself.

[Tommycat]

National pride is a good thing. One should be proud of their origins. It is part of what makes us the person we are today. Even if you disagree with some of the national policies you should be proud of the good that is done. We(the US) reach out and help struggling countries(not just war). We offer aid to countries that hate us, not because we want something, but because we feel that it is our duty to help. Sure we can be jerks at times. But we do offer the help. We aren't the only country to do this either.

 

See, I have pride in being Japanese because of my heritage. There are a lot of wonderful things that my ancestors did(and a few bad things too), but that helped shape me into who I am today. Honor, respect, and loyalty were taught to me by my mother. She was taught those things by her parents and so on.

 

I grew up in Texas. So I have pride in my home state for the lessons I learned from the people of Texas. Texans are the kind of people that will generally stop to help you out. When I had a breakdown in Texas, people would stop to help out. That stuck with me. So I in turn help others out with their vehicles.

 

I am also a citizen of the US. I served the country in the armed forces. I saw how we trained on rescuing people from other countries(operation Sorbet Royalle). How we intentionally designed our DSRV to be able to mate to other countries' submarines. I take pride in how we thought not only of ourselves, but them as well. Look how we reacted to the Kursk incident. We had our DSRV waiting on a runway to be on site within a day. And the Russians were the ones who turned us down.

 

So be proud of your origins. It helped to shape who you are today.

 

Nationalism can be dangerous though. When taken to the extreme it can lead to not questioning the government. THAT is very dangerous.