Duck, Sniper! (Lets be nice to each other :))

[jonathan7]

In recent weeks and months I think there has been a lot more sniping, flaming and a lack of respect shown by each of us for one another in Kavars; I think we could all do with chilling out a little and re-establishing some ground rules.

 

I am as many may be aware am a big proponent of freedom of speech; I come from the John Stuart Mill line of thinking that an individual should be allowed freedom of speech and liberty - this should only be taken away when they do an action that causes harm to another. Mill, recommended that minorities with even evil or stupid opinions should be allowed to express what they think, so they could be shown up for what they are.

 

I think everyone needs to remember that there is a human being on the other end of a forum posts; and that even when they are irritating us with what we think is stupidity; all of us are subject to our own biases and faux-pas. (I also think that we all carry out hurts, and it is perhaps a responsibility of all of us not to causes these to grow in others).

 

This is at its base a post, saying lets chill and be nice - sometimes I think Kavars has become too serious, and while it is for discussion of serious topics, lets promote respect for one another even, if we strongly disagree with another's thread/post.

 

I think we could all do with putting previous grievances behind, and not wield an axe towards certain members on our 'hit-lists' - I think this derails threads, and makes the unnecessarily personal. So in the interest of keeping discussions interesting, I think maintaining civility towards one another actually helps in the flow of ideas.

 

In a letter to M. le Riche Voltaire once famously wrote - "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write".

 

And so I can be cryptic, my favourite poet Rabindranath Tagore remarked; "Emancipation from the bondage of the soil is no freedom for the tree".

 

Peace all, I hope you have a good day

[True_Avery]

I'd mostly agree, but...

 

If we agreed to disagree then we wouldn't have Kavars in the first place.

 

Kavars isn't really too serious. Life is too serious. Go tell life to stop being stuck up and we might get somewhere.

 

But yeah, I've been trying to control myself better lately.

[jonathan7]

I'd mostly agree, but...

 

If we agreed to disagree then we wouldn't have Kavars in the first place.

 

I wasn't intending for the post to come across as such; we should defiantly debate - just try to avoid 'personalness' coming in, if you know what I mean.

 

Kavars isn't really too serious. Life is too serious. Go tell life to stop being stuck up and we might get somewhere.

 

I've tryed

 

People seem to enjoy blowing each other up though :|

[True_Avery]

I wasn't intending for the post to come across as such; we should defiantly debate - just try to avoid 'personalness' coming in, if you know what I mean.

Yeah, I get what you mean.

 

When I get snippy with someone, I'm more inclined to be jabbing the belief instead of the person. Although technically they are the same thing, it at least keeps personal issues with the person out of the argument on my side. If I feel I've gotten too personal, I PM them an apology later.

 

Debates can get interesting to hot. A personal vendetta can get nasty and is, for the most part, completely pointless.

 

I've tryed

 

People seem to enjoy blowing each other up though :|

And that probably wont change any time soon.

[Arcesious]

Well, I'm all for people being equal to eachother on this forum, but debating can be a fun thing if you let it be. I enjoy the 'intensity' whenever a good debate comes along. To snipe down someone else's opinion with a 'clever' remark is kind of fun to do. Even my doing that, I do not consider anyone any less a person.

[Litofsky]

Kavar's is a fun place, to be sure, but not when we use it to bash another person. That's for Ahto.

 

Either way, respecting the other person is a great way to start, and we should all try and see the argument from the other person's side.

 

Good thread, Jon. Maybe this is the start to forum-wide understanding?

 

 

...Or not.

[Ray Jones]

I blame violent media and games.

[EnderWiggin]

I come from the John Stuart Mill line of thinking that an individual should be allowed freedom of speech and liberty - this should only be taken away when they do an action that causes harm to another. Mill, recommended that minorities with even evil or stupid opinions should be allowed to express what they think, so they could be shown up for what they are.

 

...are you a rule utilitarian? Just wondering

In a letter to M. le Riche Voltaire once famously wrote - "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write".

 

Good quote - I remember a few years back the local public high school put it on the announcement board for people to see when they passed by.

 

They got a complaint from a community member demanding it be taken down

 

_EW_

[El Sitherino]

Sticks must be removed from asses.

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

Life is too serious.

prove it

[El Sitherino]

Actually, I think people need to take this place a little less serious. No sense getting all riled up just because someone else says something.

[Rev7]

<snip>

I totally agree. I myself know that intense debates are awesome, and I love them, but we all should slow down and sometimes put ourselves in each other's shoes. Yes, the shoe doesn't always fit, but we should still try.

 

Actually, I think people need to take this place a little less serious. No sense getting all riled up just because someone else says something.

QFE.

[Nedak]

I personally wouldn't care if someone flamed me, but if other individuals are being severely bothered by the flaming that is happening then it should stop.

 

and then maybe a group hug.

[Darth_Yuthura]

Kavar's is a fun place, to be sure, but not when we use it to bash another person. That's for Ahto.

 

Either way, respecting the other person is a great way to start, and we should all try and see the argument from the other person's side.

 

Good thread, Jon. Maybe this is the start to forum-wide understanding?

 

 

...Or not.

 

What about those that absolutely refuse to see things your way? I try to respect others' opinions, but when they dump sand into the gears of a reasonable argument... not creating a better one... they should know they're not helping; they're just in the way.

 

I try not to be biassed, but if someone injects an opinion that is backed by lies or biassed beliefs themselves... I certainly don't want them posting it and calling it fact. It just means more effort for those that know what they're talking about. Saying 'yes it is.' or 'no it isn't' should not be construed as an enrichment to an argument.

 

This may be biassed in itself, but I don't want people to inject something that is not based on anything factual. I don't want people's opinions to be stated more than once, or we are just doing Monty Python's 'argument clinic' routine.

[jonathan7]

What about those that absolutely refuse to see things your way? I try to respect others' opinions, but when they dump sand into the gears of a reasonable argument... not creating a better one... they should know they're not helping; they're just in the way.

 

I try not to be biassed, but if someone injects an opinion that is backed by lies or biassed beliefs themselves... I certainly don't want them posting it and calling it fact. It just means more effort for those that know what they're talking about. Saying 'yes it is.' or 'no it isn't' should not be construed as an enrichment to an argument.

 

This may be biassed in itself, but I don't want people to inject something that is not based on anything factual. I don't want people's opinions to be stated more than once, or we are just doing Monty Python's 'argument clinic' routine.

 

Does it not strike you that there are a lot of 'I's in the above?

 

Do un-too others as you would want done to yourself. The statement isn't treat others nicely until they annoy you , then treat them as they have treated you back - that only leads to pointless escalation. I often find if you treat people in a way they don't deserve (for instance, if someone is very horrible, and your very kind back) they quickly change the way they act.

 

Finally; Why do things always need to be backed up by fact? What is a fact? And what is truth? The above strikes me as a very scientific way of thinking, but human existence and experience cannot be explained by science alone. Can science explain why a painting is beautiful? Can science explain why you love some biological meat-bags more than others?

 

Lucas Forums, should be a fun, safe and interesting place to post - but it does not exist to serve solely one person - in any community there will be things you like and dislike, but co-operation is the watch word.

 

Besides; comprehension is not a pre-requisite of co-operation.

[EnderWiggin]

I often find if you treat people in a way they don't deserve (for instance, if someone is very horrible, and your very kind back) they quickly change the way they act. are banned.

 

 

Fix't. That's the real reason to be kind to jerks.

 

_EW_

[Darth_Yuthura]

Fix't. That's the real reason to be kind to jerks.

 

_EW_

 

I don't like arguments where people just say their opinions w/out reason to back them. I would imagine that most people would also prefer that... but that is in itself not backed by anything.

 

I already stated my opinion and am explaining why I think that. I frequently encounter verbal arguments on serious topics where people just say something that either is just off the topic or escalates because they won't change their opinion... no matter what. These people will be present and I believe that they should be respectfully dismissed the first time, but if they keep acting, they should be told more directly to stop.

[jonathan7]

I don't like arguments where people just say their opinions w/out reason to back them. I would imagine that most people would also prefer that... but that is in itself not backed by anything.

 

I already stated my opinion and am explaining why I think that. I frequently encounter verbal arguments on serious topics where people just say something that either is just off the topic or escalates because they won't change their opinion... no matter what. These people will be present and I believe that they should be respectfully dismissed the first time, but if they keep acting, they should be told more directly to stop.

 

I would point to two things;

 

a) As I have said before, if someone has made their mind up on non-logical grounds, logic will have no impact on their reasoning.

 

b) You should just report a post if it is off-topic/flamey and let the mods deal with, better to do that, than post again escalate things, IMHO

[Darth_Yuthura]

I would point to two things;

 

a) As I have said before, if someone has made their mind up on non-logical grounds, logic will have no impact on their reasoning.

 

b) You should just report a post if it is off-topic/flamey and let the mods deal with, better to do that, than post again escalate things, IMHO

 

You dirty Bas...! Oh I get what you mean. Shift the burden to another... very astute.

 

Thanks.

[mimartin]

I would point to two things;

 

a) As I have said before, if someone has made their mind up on non-logical grounds, logic will have no impact on their reasoning.

 

b) You should just report a post if it is off-topic/flamey and let the mods deal with, better to do that, than post again escalate things, IMHO

 

c) Add the offensive party to your Ignore List.

 

I haven’t really seen where this is much of an issue and when it has came up it has been handled by the Moderators and Administrators both quickly and fairly, IMO. (Excuse me I need to wipe this sudden brownness from my nose). Personally, I believe respect is something that should be earned. I also believe the Administrators and the moderators have earned that respect by volunteering to keep this place up and running and making it a friendly place to spend a little time. By getting involved in flaming altercations we are making their job harder and disrespecting the time they have given. (what is that smell?)

 

My best advice is to think before you post. If you are mad or upset wait before you decide to post. Chances are the offensive post will be gone before you calm down enough to post your reply.

 

If anyone is offended by one of my post, please PM, because I assure you all that was never my intention.

[Achilles]

This thread offends me.

 

Or it amuses me. I can't tell.

 

Mimartin has it right: true respect has to be earned. However that doesn't mean that people should not behave respectfully toward one another. The problem, as I see it, is that we are quick to wag our fingers at some forms of disrespect (real or imagined) but completely disregard others. For example, it's okay to lie, but it's not okay to point out when someone is lying. I'm all about the tree-hugging and the kumbaya and the hey hey hey but I think we have, first and foremost, an obligation (that's right, a duty) to intellectual rigor. Yes, the law of the land is that it must all be "friendly", but let's all make sure that we agree that no one is being "friendly" when they lie (just ask Kant).

[Arcesious]

I think I use my sniper rifle far too often. Anyways, moderators (this post is not sarcastic) feel free to tell me to cool me heels when and if I use it. I admittedly have a bad habit of it, one I still have not broken; so I want you to correct me about that when I do...

 

I'm kind of like (this is an analogy) the pyro who likes water more than fire but can't stop lighting matches.

[jonathan7]

This thread offends me.

 

Or it amuses me. I can't tell.

 

Ok, why?

 

Mimartin has it right: true respect has to be earned.

 

I both agree and disagree. Depends on the respect referred to - as you state below and I was more meaning; behaving respectfully to one another, than neccasarily respecting the person conversing/debating with.

 

However that doesn't mean that people should not behave respectfully toward one another. The problem, as I see it, is that we are quick to wag our fingers at some forms of disrespect (real or imagined) but completely disregard others.For example, it's okay to lie, but it's not okay to point out when someone is lying. I'm all about the tree-hugging and the kumbaya and the hey hey hey but I think we have, first and foremost, an obligation (that's right, a duty) to intellectual rigor. Yes, the law of the land is that it must all be "friendly", but let's all make sure that we agree that no one is being "friendly" when they lie (just ask Kant).

 

I think calling someone a liar (even if true), I don't think is helpful and could turn up the heat within a discussion. Would it not be a better idea to write "I think you are incorrect because etc"? The former comes off as a personal attack, while the latter doesn't seem personal. It just makes things easier, and I would be personally be very grateful as it would make my life a little easier, as it may help to cool escalation in volatile threads.

 

Also perhaps a distinction here -I would not say someone is lying if they believe they are correct - lying would seem to me the deliberate attempt to mis-lead someone. In a Forum such as Kavars - there will be a very broad range of opinions, I don't think because of that broad range people are lying where ever they are on the spectrum, not all will be correct (in fact most incorrect) - the point of debate is to establish who is correct, but that will not always be done to people's satisfaction.

 

Perhaps it would also be nice if we could all move to a clean slate and start thing anew? If you follow, I'm sure problems will happen, but it maybe useful to pass over what has happened in the past?

 

I think I use my sniper rifle far too often. Anyways, moderators (this post is not sarcastic) feel free to tell me to cool me heels when and if I use it. I admittedly have a bad habit of it, one I still have not broken; so I want you to correct me about that when I do...

 

I'm kind of like (this is an analogy) the pyro who likes water more than fire but can't stop lighting matches.

 

No worries - we all have our moments

[Achilles]

Ok, why?

Because of the double standard (which I explain in my previous post).

 

I both agree and disagree. Depends on the respect referred to - as you state below and I was more meaning; behaving respectfully to one another, than neccasarily respecting the person conversing/debating with.

I assumed that you meant the "behaving respectfully" form of respect, but I also thought mimartin's point was especially important so I referenced both.

 

I think calling someone a liar (even if true), I don't think is helpful and could turn up the heat within a discussion. Would it not be a better idea to write "I think you are incorrect because etc"? The former comes off as a personal attack, while the latter doesn't seem personal. It just makes things easier, and I would be personally be very grateful as it would make my life a little easier, as it may help to cool escalation in volatile threads.

Indeed, however I think this misses the point.

 

If we're going to be concerned about respectful behavior, I think we need to be consistent about it. I don't think that blatant forms of disrespect should be allowed to get a pass, while perceived forms of disrespect ("my feelings were hurt by xyz. I've been disrespected", etc) are chased down and dogpiled.

 

Also perhaps a distinction here -I would not say someone is lying if they believe they are correct - lying would seem to me the deliberate attempt to mis-lead someone.

Correct. But surely you acknowledge that there are many ways to be deceitful. I also imagine that you would acknowledge that some of them are pretty transparent.

 

In a Forum such as Kavars - there will be a very broad range of opinions, I don't think because of that broad range people are lying where ever they are on the spectrum, not all will be correct (in fact most incorrect) - the point of debate is to establish who is correct, but that will not always be done to people's satisfaction.

Not sure where this is going. Clearly everyone is entitled to their own opinions. I think my argument had more to do with double standards and how those opinions are argued.

 

Perhaps it would also be nice if we could all move to a clean slate and start thing anew? If you follow, I'm sure problems will happen, but it maybe useful to pass over what has happened in the past?

I start every day hoping for a clean slate.

 

Some days I'm pleasantly surprised. Most days I'm disappointed.

[jonathan7]

Because of the double standard (which I explain in my previous post).

 

Indeed, however I think this misses the point.

 

If we're going to be concerned about respectful behavior, I think we need to be consistent about it. I don't think that blatant forms of disrespect should be allowed to get a pass, while perceived forms of disrespect ("my feelings were hurt by xyz. I've been disrespected", etc) are chased down and dogpiled.

 

I will do my best to be neutral and to deal with any forms of disrespect I see - is that acceptable?

 

I assumed that you meant the "behaving respectfully" form of respect, but I also thought mimartin's point was especially important so I referenced both.

 

Coolio

 

Correct. But surely you acknowledge that there are many ways to be deceitful. I also imagine that you would acknowledge that some of them are pretty transparent.

 

Indeed.

 

Not sure where this is going. Clearly everyone is entitled to their own opinions. I think my argument had more to do with double standards and how those opinions are argued.

 

Okies, with regards myself I can only Moderate from this point forward.

 

I start every day hoping for a clean slate.

 

Some days I'm pleasantly surprised. Most days I'm disappointed.

 

I'm sorry about the disappointing days