mur'phon Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 Why is there not peace? Because it happens to be inconvienient for Russia. Now that the UN has agreed on it, peace (ceasefire at least) has fallen. Russia has not used its veto, so it seems as though they will abide by it. They agreed on it a long time ago, so they haven't abided by it, (look at the dates in R7s article) Oh well, it could be the calm before the storm, after all, the Ceasefire allows them to move in more troops so that when its lifted they'll be able to blitz right into the Heart of Georgia... Unless Russia wants to have a lot of "sececionist" territories, that's unlikely to happen, again I think it will be peace in our time, but on their terms:( But, since it isn't happening today... I still have hope! So have I, finaly got the paperwork done to go to the motherland, hope I'm not velcomed by a mushrom cloud:D I know this - Ukraine and Georgia would be stupid to challenge Russia. They have made a show of power that won't soon be forgotten. And the west, in this case the US because Russia has a stranglehold on the EUs energy supply, would be insane not to. Edit: 100th post! I'ts good to be in Camelot... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW01 Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 And the west' date=' in this case the US because Russia has a stranglehold on the EUs energy supply, would be insane not to.[/quote'] I agree. The EU is not unified enough to strike, or support anyone, against Russia if it becomes aggressive towards us (though I believe we could hold our ground, I don't think we could push back), and it wouldn't be in our interests to join in a conflict against them if they were not rattling the sabre at us. The USA has, through all this, seemed very weak and inconsequential. The only action I saw was Bush's speech in condemnation, and a few diplomats dispatched to the region. It seemed that the EU and UN did the most work. The US now needs to find some way (preferably non-violent) to assert itself to discourage renewed hostilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astor Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 it wouldn't be in our interests to join in a conflict against them if they were not rattling the sabre at us.[/Quote] True. It's not the like good old days when we had the Empire behind us, and our Navy was best in the world. And I think now, even if Russia was rattling the sabre, it would take something serious to actually force us into conflict. Especially with our current PM. The USA has, through all this, seemed very weak and inconsequential. The only action I saw was Bush's speech in condemnation, and a few diplomats dispatched to the region.[/Quote] You could tell by Bush's tone that there's nothing he can do about it - the Russians know that, and he knows it. They sure did pick the right time to do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW01 Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 True. It's not the like good old days when we had the Empire behind us, and our Navy was best in the world. Oh, how I long for the Empire to return And I think now, even if Russia was rattling the sabre, it would take something serious to actually force us into conflict. Especially with our current PM. Too right. Brown not only wouldn't do it, he doesn't have the support for it. I don't know that Cameron would be any better... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astor Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 Oh, how I long for the Empire to return[/Quote] We've still got the SAS, for now... On the topic of the war, it seems my theory of a buffer-zone was almost right. They've both stopped fighting, so hopefully diplomacy can resume. But also, the Russian push to Gori might also be a propaganda move. Stalin was born in Gori. So it could have been also been a move to show that they're not willing to allow the home of their greatest hero be occupied by their enemies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan7 Posted August 12, 2008 Author Share Posted August 12, 2008 Oh, how I long for the Empire to return Why on earth would you want the Empire back - you do realise there was a reason we got rid of it.... On-topic, we need some real intervention from Europe/US soon - something that will at least give them Russians something to think about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW01 Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 Why on earth would you want the Empire back - you do realise there was a reason we got rid of it.... On-topic, we need some real intervention from Europe/US soon - something that will at least give them Russians something to think about. We didn't get rid of it so much as it fell apart. We still have some foreign possessions by the way. (Fair enough they consist mainly of islands, but it's better than nothing). At least it gave us a voice that people actually listened to... But on the second point, I totally agree - we need to show that we still have some power (Europe and US both) or we are going to have warlords, dictators and other, more ambitious nations thumbing their noses at us for the rest of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev7 Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 Georgia agrees to Russian-French plan to settle conflict U.S. may seek to punish Russia for Georgia conflict Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da_Man_2423 Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 Georgia agrees to Russian-French plan to settle conflict I'm sure Georgia is more than willing to end this conflict quickly. U.S. may seek to punish Russia for Georgia conflict Probably shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mur'phon Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 I agree. The EU is not unified enough to strike, or support anyone, against Russia if it becomes aggressive towards us (though I believe we could hold our ground, I don't think we could push back), and it wouldn't be in our interests to join in a conflict against them if they were not rattling the sabre at us. How is it not in our interest to stop Russias "satelite" programm from getting off the ground? As for pushing back, it would be quite possible, especially if it could push through Norway. You could tell by Bush's tone that there's nothing he can do about it - the Russians know that, and he knows it. They sure did pick the right time to do this. Oh, he can do quite a few things, both military, diplomatic. Or are you telling me that the superpower isn't a superpower? But also, the Russian push to Gori might also be a propaganda move. Stalin was born in Gori. So it could have been also been a move to show that they're not willing to allow the home of their greatest hero be occupied by their enemies. No, if it was, you'd have the Russian media trumpeting to the masses. At least it gave us a voice that people actually listened to... Too bad it sounded like this:vadar: Probably shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. Well, since the U.S have so far just been telling Russia what a bad boy it is, and what punishemnts it might recieve, then at least I would be pleasantly surprised if they actually get punished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW01 Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 How is it not in our interest to stop Russias "satelite" programm from getting off the ground? As for pushing back' date=' it would be quite possible, especially if it could push through Norway.[/quote'] I just think it would be an overly risky business for Europe to strike in what is essentially a foreign conflict. That's how long, destructive wars come about. (The Great War, for example, of 1914-1918) Oh' date=' he [b']can[/b] do quite a few things, both military, diplomatic. Or are you telling me that the superpower isn't a superpower? Agreed, there is plenty he can do, the question is, does he have the will to do something? Also, let's face it, this isn't going to be Bush's problem for much longer. Better for him to let the Democrats deal with it when he is gone. Too bad it sounded like this:vadar: True, but people seem more likely to listen when a) they are terrified of you; or b)when they know you will back up what you say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talak Sana Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 True, but people seem more likely to listen when a) they are terrified of you I heard in a talk-shot that that's how Russians think - if people are terrified of you, then they respect you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnderWiggin Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 I heard in a talk-shot that that's how Russians think - if people are terrified of you, then they respect you. Show spoiler (hidden content - requires Javascript to show) _EW_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tk102 Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 Agreed, there is plenty he can do, the question is, does he have the will to do something? Also, let's face it, this isn't going to be Bush's problem for much longer. Better for him to let the Democrats deal with it when he is gone. Being excluded from the G8 and taking economic sanctions akin to the Cold War era would certainly hurt Russia's pocketbook. It's not so much America's will to act that's in question here as the EU's will since they are recipients of Russian natural gas and oil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW01 Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 Yes, EW... ...it is better to be feared than to be loved. - N.M. Pearls of wisdom...there are many in that work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnderWiggin Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 Yes, EW... ...it is better to be feared than to be loved. - N.M. Pearls of wisdom...there are many in that work. It's actually really fun to read. _EW_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Web Rider Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 Oh' date=' he [b']can[/b] do quite a few things, both military, diplomatic. Or are you telling me that the superpower isn't a superpower? There are plenty of things ANYONE can do, but it's not a question of ability or will, it's a question of should. In the long run, is it better to start what would quickly become a world war over Georgia, and Russia wanting to expand? IMO, it's not. Was the cold war worth it? Would it have been better to nuke the heck outta Russia before they got nukes? IMO, I think between those two options, the cold war was worth it. And it seems some diplomatic solutions are being reached between Russia and closer countries. So US intervention is not necessary. Europe needs to know they need to be able to deal with local problems themselves. I do not believe we need to continue to be the world's babysitter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan7 Posted August 15, 2008 Author Share Posted August 15, 2008 Interesting article for you all... http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/gerard_baker/article4534358.ece @WR - the only large nation in the EU - who still will back diplomacy with military is the UK - but Brown, is in such a weak position as PM I can't see him doing anything. The one ray of sunshine, is that nations like Ukraine have realised, the importance of what is occurring, and Russia's wish to create satellites may well backfire. Being excluded from the G8 and taking economic sanctions akin to the Cold War era would certainly hurt Russia's pocketbook. It's not so much America's will to act that's in question here as the EU's will since they are recipients of Russian natural gas and oil. QFT - Unfortunately, I think fat westerners have forgotten what sacrifice is, and doing something because it is the right thing to do, but will cost you, is no longer something many will do; after all cheaper fuel is worth more to many Europeans than the lives and freedoms of Georgians - so why irritate the Russian machine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChAiNz.2da Posted August 15, 2008 Share Posted August 15, 2008 Well, I'm sure this is just gonna add logs to the fire: (CNN) -- Poland and the United States have signed a preliminary deal to place part of a U.S. ballistic missile defense system in Poland, a plan that has drawn sharp objections from Russia. source * wonders if this will impact the new draft of 'firmed up' cease-fire Condy delivers soon * Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EXzSoldier Posted August 15, 2008 Share Posted August 15, 2008 when cease fire lifted poor georgia will be gone they're tiny compared to russia which is on 2 continets if i rembemer correctly. 1st i wouldnt like RussiaN Peackeepers in my countrey wouldnt neccsarly open fire on them but tell them to get the hell out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW01 Posted August 15, 2008 Share Posted August 15, 2008 1st i wouldnt like RussiaN Peackeepers in my countrey wouldnt neccsarly open fire on them but tell them to get the hell out. Unfortunately, massive nations with desperately powerful armies and some imperialist leanings don't take being told to sod off very well. But, if Georgia renews hostilities after the ceasefire, God help them...if Russia strikes first, we're all in trouble... I really hope that Russia is as hesitant about another huge-scale war as the rest of the world is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EXzSoldier Posted August 15, 2008 Share Posted August 15, 2008 i agree hopefully Georgia wont renew war with russia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnderWiggin Posted August 15, 2008 Share Posted August 15, 2008 when cease fire lifted poor georgia will be gone they're tiny compared to russia which is on 2 continets if i rembemer correctly. 1st i wouldnt like RussiaN Peackeepers in my countrey wouldnt neccsarly open fire on them but tell them to get the hell out. Is English not your first language? _EW_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astor Posted August 15, 2008 Share Posted August 15, 2008 I really hope that Russia is as hesitant about another huge-scale war as the rest of the world is. I don't think that a country with a desperately powerful army and imperialist leanings that also happens to control Europe's power supply would be all that hesistant about starting a war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mur'phon Posted August 18, 2008 Share Posted August 18, 2008 I just think it would be an overly risky business for Europe to strike in what is essentially a foreign conflict. That's how long, destructive wars come about. (The Great War, for example, of 1914-1918) I don't care it's a foreign conflict, only what the cosequnces of it is, in my oppinion, it'd be worth it. I also doubt it would turn into a great war. There are plenty of things ANYONE can do, but it's not a question of ability or will, it's a question of should. In the long run, is it better to start what would quickly become a world war over Georgia, and Russia wanting to expand? IMO, it's not. I really doubt it would turn into a world war, simply because Russia isn't powerfull enough to stand against the west for long. Besides, it's not just about Georgia, but about much of the former eastern bloc, for that imo, it'd be worth it. Times article by from J7 While I agree with the "spirit" of the article, it contains a fair bit of propaganda bull. I don't think that a country with a desperately powerful army and imperialist leanings that also happens to control Europe's power supply would be all that hesistant about starting a war. As long as it stands to benefit from it, sure, which is why Russia must be punished for its actions if we want to avoid another war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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