WRFan's TSLRP Code Fixes - Morally Sound?

[Lord of Hunger]

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?p=2654740

 

Since RedHawke said that the above thread should no longer be a place to discuss the morality of using the leaked beta or making fixes for it, I made thread here. Feel free to not only discuss this topic but also delve into other TSLRP-related issues if it has some relevance to the general discussion.

[Q]

Is posting bugfixes for the leak any less moral than using the anticipation surrounding a popular modding project to effectively troll an entire gaming community while hiding behind deniability and "modder's ethics" for the past couple of years?

 

I'll readily acknowledge that TSLRP certainly didn't start out that way, but that's exactly what Dashus has been doing with it ever since it became obvious that the mod was more than likely going to end up as a black spot rather than a gold star on the team members' respective resumes for failing to live up to that ridiculous amount of hype. If his latest publicity stunt didn't prove what I've been saying for nearly a year, now, then nothing will. TSLRP is little more than a large-scale experiment in trolling, now.

 

TSLRP has garnered more attention and generated more controversy than it will ever be worth even if it is released, which at this point I seriously doubt that it ever will be. It would be best for the community to just ignore it and let it die in the obscurity that it deserves.

[EnderWiggin]

I used to be one of the most staunch defenders of TG.

 

But honestly, I remember telling one of my friends about a year ago that the mod was almost released. Obviously, that's not the case.

 

As far as I know, nothing that WRFan has done has broken any of the rules of LucasForums. Since he hasn't, I'm going to come out and say that he's well within his rights as a community modder.

 

Although, if I could vote, I would just vote to forget completely about TSLRP - seeing as it was pretty much a disappointment to people across the globe, and speaks badly about everyone in this modding community (by association).

 

_EW_

[Web Rider]

Anyone defending TG can, IMO, shove it. It's been YEARS since their project started and for the first one I was eagerly anticipating it. While I realize that it's a long process not only limited to game fixes, but other mod integration, I've seen far more ambitious mods get done much faster and more completely than them.

 

So, my two cents is: not only should this guy post fixes, but people should shut the heck up about it, and he should finish all their work too and post that. Because clearly TG is too lazy or incompetent to do so.

 

edit: ya know I just realized, the biggest irony, is that TG doesn't have official permission from, nor are they part of the Bioware team. Hence, they don't have permission to do what they're doing. So people saying this guy is out of line for doing the same thing TG is doing, is just silly.

[Q]

Do you know who I really feel sorry for in all of this? The members/former members of T-G whose respective parts of the mod were complete or nearly complete a year and a half ago.

 

While certainly not several years' worth of work, it's a shame that the fruits of all of their labors, some of which is very high-quality modding, are going to waste due to the actions (or inaction) of one person. It would be great if they would just give that person the finger and donate their work to Stoney's and zbyl2's project.

[Jae Onasi]

I understand the frustration here, but let's remember not to flame--Dashus and other members of TG are LF members too, after all. Please express your displeasure constructively or not at all. The mods reserve the right to shut this thread down at any time if it looks like it's going to turn into an "I hate TG" thread.

 

Morally sound? It's a game. We're not talking about issues that affect people's lives in any substantial way.

[Miltiades]

I don't see a problem with it. Even less so when he posted the fix as a suggestion than releasing it as a fix (I wouldn't have any problem with that either, though).

[mimartin]

Forgetting to whom we are speaking for a moment

 

Do I think it is right for someone to take another’s work and distributed it without permission? No

 

Do I think it is right for someone to assist in that distribution by making it work better? No

 

I really don’t see how assigning a victim make it any more right or wrong for me.

 

How is this any different than me taking one of RedHawke, stoffe or any of the other wonderful modders here mods and distributing their brilliant mods without permission on another website of my choice?

 

Morally sound? It's a game. We're not talking about issues that affect people's lives in any substantial way.

I can’t say I agree with this. As I have no idea how much work went into the beta. I'm also not passionate about many things in life, if someone stole something that I worked diligently and passionately on for a number of years, it would affect my life. It would most defiantly affect my future work and my need to release said work to a ungrateful public.

 

Now if I was getting paid -- scratch all that.

[Q]

I've used this analogy to put this situation into perspective before, and I'll use it again here because I think that it works: the whole theft of the beta is reminiscent of a case where repeated blue-balling over an extended period of time finally led to rape.

 

Did the constant, sadistic blue-balling make the act of rape justifiable or any less deplorable? No.

 

Should we feel sorry for the victim(s)? Well, I sure as hell don't.

[Shem]

I think the biggest thing is if any of the Team Gizka members know of what's going on and what they think. Personally I say it is wrong unless a member of the team comes by and says it's okay.

[Druganator]

all this dude did was say, hey, if you were one of the people that downloaded the leaked beta, and it runs badly, here's some things you can do so it runs better. I don't see anything wrong with this since he wasn't giving anyone the actual beta so it's for people who had it already and were using regardless of "rules" (they arent really punishable by anything except a ban from a forum if you say you have it)

[Master Shake]

Morally sound? It's a game. We're not talking about issues that affect people's lives in any substantial way.

QFT.

 

Besides he's telling you how to fix bugs, not actually fixing them and releasing it as his own mod.

[Bimmerman]

So I may be a good bit behind the times, but last time I checked in on the TG situation (admittedly...2006? 7?) there was still a lot of goodwill and anticipation for their efforts. I'm honestly a bit surprised at how much they're being trashed here....are there any threads I can get a link to to explain why?!?

 

As I know nothing about this current situation, I realize I'm posting OT. If anyone has threads, please PM me so as not to derail the thread more.

[Web Rider]

Forgetting to whom we are speaking for a moment

 

Do I think it is right for someone to take another’s work and distributed it without permission? No

 

Do I think it is right for someone to assist in that distribution by making it work better? No

 

I really don’t see how assigning a victim make it any more right or wrong for me.

 

How is this any different than me taking one of RedHawke, stoffe or any of the other wonderful modders here mods and distributing their brilliant mods without permission on another website of my choice?

 

 

I can’t say I agree with this. As I have no idea how much work went into the beta. I'm also not passionate about many things in life, if someone stole something that I worked diligently and passionately on for a number of years, it would affect my life. It would most defiantly affect my future work and my need to release said work to a ungrateful public.

 

Now if I was getting paid -- scratch all that.

 

Of course, since he didn't do any of that, that's all really out the window isn't it? What he did do was essentially tell us the commands we needed to type in order to run ipconfig. There's no difference between what he did and what TG did. They both said "Look, this thing is buggy, here's some bug fixes." heck, unlike TG, he didn't even release anything without permission. He only told us how to fix it if we had it chose to do so.

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

someone make this thread on the tg forums for my amusement

[mimartin]

Of course, since he didn't do any of that, that's all really out the window isn't it?

Sorry, I did not know the codes were useless. I was under the impress they did make the beta being used without permission work better. Stupid me for actually believing what I read. But seeing I am not using the beta I had no way of knowing they did not work.

 

If the codes do work, then this part of my post does apply.

Do I think it is right for someone to assist in that distribution by making it work better? No

[Web Rider]

Sorry, I did not know the codes were useless. I was under the impress they did make the beta being used without permission work better. Stupid me for actually believing what I read. But seeing I am not using the beta I had no way of knowing they did not work.

Somehow, I fail to see why permission is required beyond a courtesy to use something that permission was never given to make. That's like saying I need your permission to drive your stolen car. Clearly you don't care about permission, otherwise instead of deriding this poor fellow who is simply trying to help, you would be bemoaning EVERYONE who is using this leaked mod.

 

Aside from the fast that this person did not leak the beta, you're only argument is that "he didn't get permission." Permission for what? To download a leaked beta? To use it? To use his own computer programming smarts to provide a way to improve it?

 

It's not like he's impeding TG's progress(if what they're even doing can even be called that), he's not calling them out, he's not hating on them, he's simply being helpful. And yet somehow, this helpfulness requires "permission". Permission from whom? TG did not get permission to make their mod. In fact, I think I can safely say that none of the modders here got any sort of permission from Bioware to make these mods. In all reality, the ONLY permission that any of us have is through a user contract which we have all violated by altering the game.

 

So, pardon me if I find your accusation of "lack of permission" at best hypocritical, and at worst, blatantly false. Much along the lines of a man who decries homosexuality while they sleep with other men. This guy did the same thing any other modder did. They provided a way to fix bugs to all of us who want to see bug fixes. They did so in the same way every other modder did, by finding bugs, and fixing them. The same way TG did, the same way any other modder who provided bug fixes did.

 

If he is immoral, then so are they, so are you, and so am I. If you are not willing to admit your immorality for failing to acquire proper permission to alter the content of someone else's work, then you are hardly in a position to call anyone else out. What's that line? Oh yes. "Don't throw stones when you live in glass houses." If, in fact, you admit that you are also immoral for the same actions, then once again, you have no room to speak because your actions are no different. I can hardly say you are immoral for modding TSL, as I have done the same.

 

If you think modding without permission is fine when you've paid for the product, then I should point out that all KOTOR and TSL mods are free. Which can clearly be used to demonstrate the same belief, if you've paid for it(and the cost is zero), then you automatically have modding rights. Permission or no.

 

 

If the codes do work, then this part of my post does apply.

No, it does not. See above. Of course, by your own logic, TG's work is also immoral because it works, and they also, failed to acquire permission.

[Pavlos]

So, pardon me if I find your accusation of "lack of permission" at best hypocritical, and at worst, blatantly false. Much along the lines of a man who decries homosexuality while they sleep with other men. This guy did the same thing any other modder did. They provided a way to fix bugs to all of us who want to see bug fixes. They did so in the same way every other modder did, by finding bugs, and fixing them. The same way TG did, the same way any other modder who provided bug fixes did.

While I don't have an opinion on the "morals" of such a situation, mostly because the way in which one would go about defining them is several miles above my head, I would like to point out that LucasArts actually condones modding of their games. Hence: LucasFiles -- an officially sanctioned site for mods.

 

Edit: I can't find the link right now but I'm also fairly certain that LucasArts has a press release somewhere on their site which details their decision to allow mods across the board. The Source/MacLeodCorp used to have it in his signature...

[mimartin]

No, it does not. See above. Of course, by your own logic, TG's work is also immoral because it works, and they also, failed to acquire permission.

No, that is by your logic. What I wrote had nothing to do with your logic. You failed to read what I wrote and added your own logic and meaning to the words you did scan. AGAIN!

 

Do I think it is right =/ morally wrong as you accuse me of writing.

 

Does the codes improve the game play or the beta? If so, then the codes are assisting with people using the beta without permission is all I am implying.

 

Show me where I “bemoaned” anyone?

 

I simply stated my opinion and did not judge anyone. I would not use the beta and I would not use the codes because I do not feel it is right, everyone else has to make their own choices in life. I do not make those for them nor would I want to as you so elegantly seem to falsely imply.

 

 

 

=/ means does not equal for those of you following along at home. I’m sure it will soon have a different meaning in this thread.

[Web Rider]

Do I think it is right =/ morally wrong as you accuse me of writing.

When something is not right...it is?...Wrong. So if you don't think something is "right" you think it's wrong. Since it stems from your own personal beliefs, it's your own morality. Therefore, it's morally wrong(to you).

 

Does the codes improve the game play or the beta? If so, then the codes are assisting with people using the beta without permission is all I am implying.

And? They were playing the beta already. Something which everyone agrees is bad, buggy, and outdated. If TG have any intention of releasing a finished product, you can get back to me on this being relevant THEN.

 

Show me where I “bemoaned” anyone?

Oh, the parts where you compare this to stealing other modders work.

 

\

I simply stated my opinion and did not judge anyone. I would not use the beta and I would not use the codes because I do not feel it is right, everyone else has to make their own choices in life. I do not make those for them nor would I want to as you so elegantly seem to falsely imply.

That's nice if you don't want to use them, but that's not the point of this topic. This topic is to discuss the morality of HIS actions, not yours. So if you don't use the beta, anything he did has no relevance to you, so why is it wrong?

 

Yes, didn't "judge" aside from where you said he was wrong and stealing. Yeah, totally not judging.

 

=/ means does not equal for those of you following along at home. I’m sure it will soon have a different meaning in this thread.

Yes Awesomest, coolest person on the whole Lucasforums boards it's used as an emoticon, I don't know, on like 90% of the internet.

I haven't read 100%, let alone 90% of the internet to know this for sure, and I suspect you haven't either . I'm sure you can use context to figure out he meant =/= when using =/, and the fact that he almost always uses LF smileys if he does use the rare emoticon. Keep it civil, please. --Jae

[mimartin]

When something is not right...it is?...Wrong. So if you don't think something is "right" you think it's wrong. Since it stems from your own personal beliefs, it's your own morality. Therefore, it's morally wrong(to you).[/Quote] Yet, since I do not hold anyone to my code, your point is moot.

 

If TG have any intention of releasing a finished product, you can get back to me on this being relevant THEN. [/Quote] And just who is making it relevant now.

 

Oh, the parts where you compare this to stealing other modders work.[/Quote] So your point is the beta does not involve other modders work used without their permission? Got it.

 

That's nice if you don't want to use them, but that's not the point of this topic. This topic is to discuss the morality of HIS actions, not yours. So if you don't use the beta, anything he did has no relevance to you, so why is it wrong?[/Quote] Since when am I not allowed to voice my opinion on a discussion forum? I’m sorry I did not get that memo from the staff. I’ll be sure to get that cleared up with Darth333.

 

Yes, didn't "judge" aside from where you said he was wrong and stealing. Yeah, totally not judging.[/Quote] Never said either. I said I did not think it was right. Never wrote anything or use the word stealing. You can stop trying to judge me by reading between the lines. I choice my word carefully and write what I mean.

 

If you are trying to flamebait me into losing my temper, that will not work.

[JediAthos]

can't we all just...get along?

[Jae Onasi]

can't we all just...get along?

Yes, please!

I can’t say I agree with this. As I have no idea how much work went into the beta. I'm also not passionate about many things in life, if someone stole something that I worked diligently and passionately on for a number of years, it would affect my life. It would most defiantly affect my future work and my need to release said work to a ungrateful public.

I hear you, and to some extent I agree since they worked pretty hard on it (still are working). I'd love to see it released because I'd love to see my game working better and see some of the cut content. Sadly, I don't know if they're ever going to release it, especially since the leaked beta kind of let the air out of their balloon, I think.

 

The leaked beta is a 'fait accompli', and issuing a fix for that doesn't seem to me as big a deal as the actual leaked beta itself. It would be courteous for WRFan to acknowledge the work involved by TG if s/he hasn't already, and to say "hey, this is just temporary to get you by until TSLRP is officially released--please support them!!"

 

This is a gray area because TG doesn't have any true rights to their mod legally. It's only our policy, our sense of 'fairness' along with the courtesy and respect that we choose to give modders and mods here that protects them and their work from 'theft'. I'd love to see TG release part of the mod with the fixes, or perhaps comment on WRFan's fix, too, to see what they think about it.

 

The reason I went "eh?" at the title is because I think of morality issues on a big scale--war, famine, poverty, mass murder, human rights oppression, and so on, and this seems so small in comparison that it's almost silly to compare. People dying from starvation because of inhumanity vs. discussion of whether it's morally sound to release a fix for a leaked beta--it's just kind of weird to compare the two on the same level of morality, even if I think honesty, truth, and respect for others' property is extremely important. Don't get me wrong--I don't think TG's work is silly at all, and when the mod is released finally, I'll be one of the first in line waiting to download it. I was reacting more to what the title was than the right/wrong of releasing a fix for a leaked beta.

[Druganator]

So your point is the beta does not involve other modders work used without their permission? Got it.

He isn't releasing the beta that some people are already using. he is not helping anyone to get the beta. all he is doing is saying "If you already have it, here are some things I figured out on how to fix some issues."

 

HE(i'm assuming WRFan is a he) didn't steal that.

[EnderWiggin]

The reason I went "eh?" at the title is because I think of morality issues on a big scale--war, famine, poverty, mass murder, human rights oppression, and so on, and this seems so small in comparison that it's almost silly to compare. [/QUOte]

Nonsense. Each action has a moral value. I don't think that anyone was saying, "This is worse than killing babies." I do think that the OP was saying, "Is WRFan doing the right thing?".

 

I personally see no moral objection, and furthermore, no rules broken as per SWK policy. (He hasn't released them, right? For now, it's just a discussion, and thus, not infringement as defined here.) It's unfortunate that it has come to this - if TG had followed through on their plans, we wouldn't be discussing this.

People dying from starvation because of inhumanity vs. discussion of whether it's morally sound to release a fix for a leaked beta--it's just kind of weird to compare the two on the same level of morality, even if I think honesty, truth, and respect for others' property is extremely important.

Huh?

 

I'm not sure why you think that some things are debatable and others are not... We're just having a friendly chat on a forum - we're not petitioning Obama to bring this up at the next session of Congress. Less of a comparison than you seem to think.

 

 

_EW_