Mass Effect?

[Achilles]

So glad that there are critics. Keeps us from having to think for ourselves.

 

...and everyone knows that video game critics aren't philistines.

[SpaceAlex]

If you consider yourself science literate and don't like it when people just make stuff up to try to sell a story, take a pass.

 

I'm surprised you like Star Wars, KotOR, or any other made-up story (pretty much every movie, game).

 

I'm going to have to disagree on two points: If you have a liking for dialogue that isn't a wikipedia entry, you should take a pass

 

That's a bit better, but still incredibly pretentious.

 

 

Seriously, can you two get off your high horse for five seconds?

[Darth333]

Seriously, it's a bad game; get Mask of the Betrayer instead.

I disagree. I had a lot more fun playing ME rather than MoB. Yes, MotB had a far more superior storytelling but I could never get away with the game management frustration... (I rarely complain about this but I hated the nwn2 and motb camera...yes it can be adjusted but keeping it adjusted as I wanted only revived an old chronic tendinitis that had put an end to my music career some yrs ago).

 

Also, perhaps because I was having a way too heavy work schedule at that time the "greek tragedy" feeling it (MotB) left to me was just too much (I might have had enjoyed it more in other circumstances). ME has been brainless entertainment to me (kick some Geth ass...just what I needed) and was just plain fun without no worries.

 

Things (games, movies and/or books) don't always have to give a tormented feeling to be good and today, while it might not have been my opinion 10yrs ago, I sometimes quite enjoy pure entertainment that makes me feel good without thinking too much (some things just plainly don't make any sense but who cares, it's fun)- I do a lot of that in the office already - and I don't always need a prolonged weekday - it's like a week to the beach in comparison to a week to the Louvre...both can be fun but its a dosage matter. I am really looking forward to the next game (and for what's not in the dialogs, you can use your imagination).

 

My advice: take what you need and what you want.

[Darth InSidious]

Seriously, can you two get off your high horse for five seconds?

You might want to remove the beam in your own eye first.

[SpaceAlex]

You might want to remove the beam in your own eye first.

 

Already have. Look at me and see how happy I am:

 

 

Anyway, my suggestion would be to just play the damn game, and see what you think of it. Even Achilles said he doesn't like it when people don't think for themselves, so I suggest you follow his advice.

 

Also, if you're in a similar situation as Darth333 was, you ought to enjoy the hell out of it.

[Achilles]

I'm surprised you like Star Wars

 

What can I say? I'm a sucker for mythology.

 

KotOR

 

I don't.

 

or any other made-up story (pretty much every movie, game).

 

Clearly a member of any audience is required to suspend disbelieve to some extent. Good stories don't tax this to the point of breaking though.

 

FTL travel? Okay, I'll play along. Mass Effect technology? Far fetched but interesting. A giant plant-creature living in the ruins of an ancient abandoned civilization, but was around before the civilization got there...wait. What? What are you trying to pull? Did any of you guys think this through, or were you simply hoping that every single person who bought your game would be too stupid to notice that this doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

 

There's one example. Would you like more?

[Darth333]

Did any of you guys think this through, or were you simply hoping that every single person who bought your game would be too stupid to notice that this doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

 

There's one example. Would you like more?

It might not have make any sense (see above post) but it was just plain "phun".

 

I've seen a lot of similar arguments thrown out while I was studying music...how some teachers would talk about this "art for art" ideal and argue that "normal" people wouldn't understand (even if the crowds who would attend opera in the 17th and 18th century would eat, flirt, burp, conspire, sleep, etc. while attending the "show")..I think it works both ways. It's not all about sense, deep or hidden meaning, it can be pure entertainment for the sake of entertainment too. It's about filling a need which can differ from an individual to another.

[stingerhs]

Keeps us from having to think for ourselves.

remind me of that whenever you start sending me money that you grew off your tree sometime. then, i might be able to go out and buy every game that comes out so that i can "think for myself" in regards to how good or bad every game is.

[Darth InSidious]

Just for the record, I feel I should point out that that:

I'm going to have to disagree on two points: If you have a liking for dialogue that isn't a wikipedia entry, you should take a pass

wasn't pretentious...

 

... But that was, though.

 

 

* Edit by Darth333: Yeah, for the input.

[Achilles]

It might not have make any sense (see above post) but it was just plain "phun".

 

I've seen a lot of similar arguments thrown out while I was studying music...how some teachers would talk about this "art for art" ideal and argue that "normal" people wouldn't understand (even if the crowds who would attend opera in the 17th and 18th century would eat, flirt, burp, conspire, sleep, etc. while attending the "show")..I think it works both ways. It's not all about sense,deep or hidden meaning, it can be pure entertainment for the sake of entertainment too. It's about filling a need which can differ from an individual to another.

 

I agree that sometimes everyone just needs some brain candy. In fact, I believe I conceded that ME would be just dandy if that's what the OP is looking for. However, I think when the devs drone on about "committment to story" and fans laud the game on the merits of it's writing/storytelling, a time-out might be required.

 

remind me of that whenever you start sending me money that you grew off your tree sometime. then, i might be able to go out and buy every game that comes out so that i can "think for myself" in regards to how good or bad every game is.

 

I don't think it's necessary to "play every game" to figure out that Bioware thinks they're much better than they really are. Believe it or not, giving someone the title of "game critic" doesn't automatically mean that they have good taste in video games. And all "a lot of critics like it" tells me is that I can't trust "a lot of critics".

[EnderWiggin]

Anything we both agree on is infallible truth, QED. Alternative opinions are wrong, and lead to damnation.

 

That sounds about right.

 

 

I'll be honest: I kind of liked it while I was playing it, but I never got to the end. So it obviously didn't capture my interest too much, since I'm about 15-20 minutes before the end boss and just haven't gotten around to finishing it.

 

And I'm not even busy right now, I just got bored with it.

 

_EW_

[SpaceAlex]

I don't.

 

Oh? But you're on a KotOR forum. Are you sure you don't like it just a little bit? :xp What about KotOR 2?

 

Clearly a member of any audience is required to suspend disbelieve to some extent. Good stories don't tax this to the point of breaking though.

 

I get this, but while you might find it impossible to suspend disbelief, many others are totally comfortable with the story. I admit I have some issues with some of the writing myself (though probably not the same as you), but that doesn't mean the writers failed - it means that perhaps the game was simply not made for people like myself.

 

My point, though, is that it's quite hard, if not impossible, to think of every detail and make something that will be liked by every head out there. Some are better at it than others - and I think that while Mass Effect devs aren't exactly the best out there (but let's not kid ourselves - there are far worse), they still managed to create something that seemed believable and interesting to many people that played the game. Even if you, DI, myself, and perhaps many others don't agree, their game was still a success and is liked by many, despite some questionable design decisions and flaws in the story (which many don't even notice or even don't think of them as flaws).

 

In short, let's let people make up their own mind. You can give your opinion (the OP asked for it, after all ), but you can't be certain that he will feel the same way about the game as you do. So, I think some discretion on our part is required, as you have little to gain by ruining a game for someone that might enjoy it.

 

Well, that's just how I feel, anyway.

 

I don't think it's necessary to "play every game" to figure out that Bioware thinks they're much better than they really are.

 

And who's to blame for that? Certainly not Bioware. When there's a whole legion of fans, critics, and whatnot singing praises to you, it's almost impossible to think you're nothing special.

 

Just for the record, I feel I should point out that that:

 

wasn't pretentious...

 

Hmm, it seems like you don't agree with my choice of words. I'll try to do better next time, master.

 

I'll be honest: I kind of liked it while I was playing it, but I never got to the end. So it obviously didn't capture my interest too much, since I'm about 15-20 minutes before the end boss and just haven't gotten around to finishing it.

 

Yeah, that happens to me from time to time, as well... while playing games that the majority thinks are great. Strange that...

[Revan 411]

Anything we both agree on is infallible truth, QED. Alternative opinions are wrong, and lead to damnation.

 

Either your joking or your serious. Either way, I'll still put this. :¬:

 

In my own opinion, Mass Effect is a good game. Sure, maybe it has flaws, and its certainly not close to perfection but that's okay. Every video game is like that (Yes, I know a lot of you will argue with me about this.) and besides, the game's plot and story is not that bad. Maybe a bit unoriginal, but its the fictional universe that Mass Effect takes place in is what I like. Its a space opera, and I dunno about anybody else here, but space operas are one of my favorite science fiction genera. Besides, its one of the better original games of 2007 (Especially in a time like this when game developers just simply steal everybody Else's ideas.) and I'm talking about plot, characters, themes, setting, etc. The gameplay is unoriginal as it does take cues from other over the shoulder prospective games. But I don't care what anybody else say, the game is fun and that's that.

 

Sequel looks interesting too. But they better add more gameplay dynamics this time around. I mean, physics is a good idea and its good that BioWare is improving it in the sequel, but they better add more gameplay enhancements then that to make it more of a ''true'' sequel and less on a expansion pack.

 

EDIT: By the way, before anybody asks, I'm not a BioWare fanboy. I'm just a simple person who enjoys playing Mass Effect.

[Achilles]

Oh? But you're on a KotOR forum.

 

So?

 

Are you sure you don't like it just a little bit?

 

Quite sure.

 

What about KotOR 2?

 

Different game. Different developers.

 

I get this, but while you might find it impossible to suspend disbelief, many others are totally comfortable with the story.

 

Indeed. Some people actually pay money to go watch movies made by Michael Bay, too. It's a crazy world we live in.

 

My point, though, is that it's quite hard, if not impossible, to think of every detail and make something that will be liked by every head out there.

 

Yep. And I even said that I was willing to suspend disbelief on some of the stuff and give them a pass for some of the science stuff that 85% of people wouldn't even notice. But when you start encountering garbage that has nothing to do with anything other than sloppy storytelling, that's another matter.

 

And even that wouldn't be a big deal, except we now have a small army here talking about how great the writing is. Tell me you like it because it's a mindless shooty-thingy and we don't have a problem. Tell me you like it because it's got a great story with great writing, and I'm going to have to disagree. And pointing out that a bunch of critics liked it only tells me that a bunch of critics are willing to overlook crappy writing.

 

Some are better at it than others - and I think that while Mass Effect devs aren't exactly the best out there (but let's not kid ourselves - there are far worse), they still managed to create something that seemed believable and interesting to many people that played the game.

 

I'm not interested in speculating on Bioware's target audience. I'm glad you enjoyed the game though.

 

Even if you, DI, myself, and perhaps many others don't agree, their game was still a success and is liked by many, despite some questionable design decisions and flaws in the story (which many don't even notice or even don't think of them as flaws).

 

And this a good reason to endorse the game, why?

 

"You should buy the game because a lot of people bought the game".

 

???

 

In short, let's let people make up their own mind. You can give your opinion (the OP asked for it, after all ), but you can't be certain that he will feel the same way about the game as you do. So, I think some discretion on our part is required, as you have little to gain by ruining a game for someone that might enjoy it.

 

None of the quoted section above makes any sense.

 

If he wanted to make up his own mind (i.e. without input) he wouldn't have asked for input. You seem to acknowledge that I am not out of line for giving him what he asked for (my opinion). So how am I getting in his, or anyone else's way.

 

I'm not saying that you or anyone else can't like the game. I do have the right to call into question claims that writing and storytelling are good reasons for liking it.

 

Well, that's just how I feel, anyway.

 

Okay.

 

And who's to blame for that? Certainly not Bioware. When there's a whole legion of fans, critics, and whatnot singing praises to you, it's almost impossible to think you're nothing special.

 

Oh, so it's the fans' fault that they produce games with shoddy writing while giving interviews where they talk about how much they care about making sure that their games don't have shoddy writing? Seriously?

[SpaceAlex]

So?

 

Well, I thought it was not too much to assume that a forum that revolves around modding and discussing KotOR attracts people who like the said game. I guess I was wrong.

 

Different game. Different developers.

 

Heh, yes, I realize that. I was, however, wondering if you liked that.

 

Indeed. Some people actually pay money to go watch movies made by Michael Bay, too. It's a crazy world we live in.

 

Yes, we just have to learn to accept it.

 

Yep. And I even said that I was willing to suspend disbelief on some of the stuff and give them a pass for some of the science stuff that 85% of people wouldn't even notice. But when you start encountering garbage that has nothing to do with anything other than sloppy storytelling, that's another matter.

 

And even that wouldn't be a big deal, except we now have a small army here talking about how great the writing is. Tell me you like it because it's a mindless shooty-thingy and we don't have a problem. Tell me you like it because it's got a great story with great writing, and I'm going to have to disagree. And pointing out that a bunch of critics liked it only tells me that a bunch of critics are willing to overlook crappy writing.

 

It's certainly your right to disagree and point out the flaws. You're unlikely to change the minds of those that liked the game, though. The only good thing that usually comes out of such discussions is an agreement from someone that feels the same way as you do... which is fine.

 

I'm not interested in speculating on Bioware's target audience. I'm glad you enjoyed the game though.

 

Hmm, neither am I. I'm sorry you didn't find the game enjoyable, though.

 

And this a good reason to endorse the game, why?

 

"You should buy the game because a lot of people bought the game".

 

???

 

No, not at all. However, if you see many people liking it, chances are there actually is something good about it, and that someone interested in playing it will enjoy it.

 

None of the quoted section above makes any sense.

 

If he wanted to make up his own mind (i.e. without input) he wouldn't have asked for input. You seem to acknowledge that I am not out of line for giving him what he asked for (my opinion). So how am I getting in his, or anyone else's way.

 

I'm not saying that you or anyone else can't like the game. I do have the right to call into question claims that writing and storytelling are good reasons for liking it.

 

Of course you do. But just by saying it, you're making a potential player be wary of the game and its writing before he even gets a chance to make up his own mind, which basically means he won't be able to enjoy the game fully.

 

Still, not knowing what kind of person the OP is, I can only speak for myself.

 

Okay.

 

Yes, indeed.

 

Oh, so it's the fans' fault that they produce games with shoddy writing while giving interviews where they talk about how much they care about making sure that their games don't have shoddy writing? Seriously?

 

Hmm, yes. When your fans praise you for your excellent writing, you tend to believe you can write good.

[DarthParametric]

A giant plant-creature living in the ruins of an ancient abandoned civilization, but was around before the civilization got there...wait. What?

I find it interesting that you get so hung up on that of all things considering it's actually the most plausible of the ME concepts you mentioned. It's likely based on the Armillaria fungal supercolony in Oregon which, although not sentient (not that we know of anyway...), is extremely large and old at around 9km2 and 2400 years respectively. Not quite Thorian levels obviously, but an extraterrestrial equivalent is much more feasible than some of the other fantastical stuff in ME. Anyway it's sci-fi. Who said it has to be realistic? If realism is what you want, read a history textbook.

[Pavlos]

It might not have make any sense (see above post) but it was just plain "phun".

QFE.

 

The plot of Casablanca, (for my money) one of the greatest films ever made, doesn't even make any sense. How are papers signed by Charles de Gaulle supposed to help someone escape from Vichy-controlled Casablanca and why do such things exist anyway?

 

Edit: Unfortunately, I found Mass Effect to be more than a little boring. But there's no accounting for taste.

[Achilles]

It's certainly your right to disagree and point out the flaws. You're unlikely to change the minds of those that liked the game, though.

 

Funny, I thought the point of the thread was to offer opinions for someone who wasn't sure about buying the game. I guess I didn't get the memo.

 

No, not at all. However, if you see many people liking it, chances are there actually is something good about it, and that someone interested in playing it will enjoy it.

 

That's one explanation. There are others.

 

Of course you do. But just by saying it, you're making a potential player be wary of the game and its writing before he even gets a chance to make up his own mind, which basically means he won't be able to enjoy the game fully.

 

You seem to be missing the part where he asked for opinions because he wasn't sure whether or not to buy it in the first place. It seems he's "wary" of buying something he might not enjoy.

 

As I and a few others have stated, if he's serious roleplayer looking for a well-written game, this is not it. If he's just looking for something to do, then he should pick it up.

 

Hmm, yes. When your fans praise you for your excellent writing, you tend to believe you can write good.

 

Alternative hypothesis: When you market yourself as a "good writer" and "critics" don't contradict you, there's a good chance that large numbers of young people will believe that your product is what "good writing" looks like.

 

I find it interesting that you get so hung up on that of all things considering it's actually the most plausible of the ME concepts you mentioned. It's likely based on the Armillaria fungal supercolony in Oregon which, although not sentient (not that we know of anyway...), is extremely large and old at around 9km2 and 2400 years respectively. Not quite Thorian levels obviously, but an extraterrestrial equivalent is much more feasible than some of the other fantastical stuff in ME. Anyway it's sci-fi. Who said it has to be realistic? If realism is what you want, read a history textbook.

 

It seems you missed the point.

 

Which came first: the thorian or the feros ruins?

 

According to the game, the thorian was there first. Okay, so if the thorian is there first, then were the ruins built around it? No. So what happened? The devs contradicted their own story and hoped their audience would be too stupid to notice.

 

If you stop and think real hard, you might also find out that

the conduit

was completely unnecessary as well. Why do we believe it's necessary? Because we thought it through and realized that it was, or because the story says that it is and we never thought to actually see if that made sense? Great writing? Hardly seems like it.

[mimartin]

Next thing you are going to tell me it is it was unnecessary to put two meter wide thermal exhaust port that leads directly to the reactor system on the Death Star. I suppose that merely a plot device too.

 

According to the game, the thorian was there first. Okay, so if the thorian is there first, then were the ruins built around it? No. So what happened? The devs contradicted their own story and hoped their audience would be too stupid to notice.

Since it was never explained. How do we know the structures were not purposely built around the Thorian? Perhaps the Protheans were studying the Thorian.

 

 

The fanboyism is coming out.

[Achilles]

Next thing you are going to tell me it is it was unnecessary to put two meter wide thermal exhaust port that leads directly to the reactor system on the Death Star. I suppose that merely a plot device too.

 

 

Since it was never explained. How do we know the structures were not purposely built around the Thorian? Perhaps the Protheans were studying the Thorian.

 

 

The fanboyism is coming out.

Since I just happen to know that you're play ME and not at Feros yet, perhaps I could convince you to look around while you're there and tell me what you see?

 

I saw thorian "nodes" attached to the walls (rather than the walls built around where the nodes were).

 

P.S. Wasn't there something about the Thorian observing the Protheans without their knowing about it? Seem to recall the Asari mentioning something along those lines.

[jonathan7]

Firstly, I wouldn't describe ME as an RPG (same as I don't describe Oblivion as one)... I'd describe it as an Explorer game, with FPS and RPG elements. ME is an enjoyable and explorable universe, kicking Geth ass is good, and the game looks beautiful. The FPS side is fun (especially the sniper rifle) and I enjoyed the weapons upgrades.

 

The science as said is not particuarly realistic, and like Achilles I generally dislike going off on Random side quests, when the pressing matter of saving the Galaxy is at hand. Mass Effect is, I think very fun, but don't take it too seriously, and if you are an RPG only fan I would avoid ME. If your looking for something not too Brain taxing that is fun, to pass the time with the game will be for you.

 

According to the game, the thorian was there first. Okay, so if the thorian is there first, then were the ruins built around it? No. So what happened? The devs contradicted their own story and hoped their audience would be too stupid to notice.

 

Not that I at all liked the Thorian, but to be honest I found the above the most plausible... Could the Ruins not have been built on top of the Thorian, which then grew up through the ruins over the millenia? That said the Thorian still sucks...

 

 

But what about the first Death Star could only fire once every 24 hours (sucky) retcon? - Have you seen their how to survive an Alien Ataack video? It's awesome

[Achilles]

Not that I at all liked the Thorian, but to be honest I found the above the most plausible... Could the Ruins not have been built on top of the Thorian, which then grew up through the ruins over the millenia? That said the Thorian still sucks...

 

Except that the thorian is shown suspended within the structure by nodes that were obviously attached after the walls were already there. Had it "grown up" through the ruins, there would have been other nodes below it.

 

But what about the first Death Star could only fire once every 24 hours (sucky) retcon? - Have you seen their how to survive an Alien Ataack video? It's awesome

 

Someday I'll understand why people accept "retcons".

[jonathan7]

Meh, I'd not really thought to much about the Thorian, I thought it was naff, it producing clones on me, I thought especially stupid.

 

Someday I'll understand why people accept "retcons".

 

I had said my retcon statement with extreme sarcasm, not sure if you got that or not...

[Achilles]

Meh, I'd not really thought to much about the Thorian, I thought it was naff, it producing clones on me, I thought especially stupid.

 

The thorian was one example. The conduit is another.

the reaper line about "all biological life being a genetic mutation"

was quite possibly the dumbest thing I've ever heard. The location of the conduit. The list goes on and on.

 

And I understand that most people probably didn't spend too much time thinking about it. That's fine. But I don't think we can call it "great writing" if it doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

 

I had said my retcon statement with extreme sarcasm, not sure if you got that or not...

 

Noted.

[Pavlos]

And I understand that most people probably didn't spend too much time thinking about it. That's fine. But I don't think we can call it "great writing" if it doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

While I'm not a fan of BioWare's writing, especially in its latest incarnations (though my love of KotOR and Baldur's Gate II may, I admit, stem from its presentation in Glorious Rose-Tinted Glasses) I feel your criticism may miss the mark somewhat.

 

While people like Graham Greene would argue how important the plot of a film or a novel, contradictions and contrivances can exist without issue in some of the greatest works of world literature. Now, don't get me wrong, given the difficulty I had keeping track of the family ties between all of the Julio-Claudians in I.Claudius, had that programme produced a large pair of scissors and cut in two the continuity linking me with the way out of its labyrinth of betrayal and murder, I would have been more than a little frustrated. I may have even thrown the DVD box set through the window of the front room, which takes some doing. But contradictions and textual instabilities do not preclude the status of "masterpiece".

 

Anyone who has read Malory has puzzled over first cousin to Arthur, then Sir, then King (?!) Bagdemagus quietly and inexplicably pulling a Christ and reappearing in later chapters of Le Morte Darthure after a spectacular death scene and, even, a visit to his tomb. I'm still pondering, myself, as to whether or not the Trojan horse was made out of oak or pine, or even fir, Virgil never seemed to be able to make up his mind. And those "superfluous and inconsistent scenes" that T.S. Eliot spotted in Hamlet are the things which have caused it not just to "hold the mirror up to nature" and allow us, centuries later, to experience the confusion of the doubt-ridden place that renaissance England was but have captured the minds and hearts of generations of play-goers and critics; its apparent flaws, oddly enough, are its greatest virtues.