Revan vs. Anikan if he didn't have to be in that Darth Vader costume

[Lord of Hunger]

Luke? Yes.

 

Yoda? Maybe.

 

Darth Sidious? No.

[Forogorn]

Yoda and Darth Sidious can defeat any jedi, though Darth Sidious was defeated easily by Darth Vader because it was an unexpected betrayal or redemption. Luke is the weakest jedi ever. He may be a jedi master at the end of Star Wars The Return of the Jedi, but he is still weak. I mean anyone can defeat Darth Vader and Darth Sidious at that time because they were both old, and Luke was easily shocked by Sidious, that shows weakness. Luke can easily be defeated by Obi-wan as a padawan.

[Mono_Giganto]

I mean anyone can defeat Darth Vader and Darth Sidious at that time because they were both old,

 

Except, no one did. Their ages have nothing to do with it. First off, Sidious was always old. His mastery of the Force didn't weaken simply due to his age. Otherwise, Yoda would have been pathetic. As for Vader, he wasn't really that old anyway; I don't recall exactly how the years add up across the films, but I'm fairly certain Vader was younger than 50 at the time of his death.

 

and Luke was easily shocked by Sidious, that shows weakness. Luke can easily be defeated by Obi-wan as a padawan.

 

How does that show weakness? Luke wasn't raised in a time full of Jedi and Sith battling each other on every street corner; he's never seen anyone do anything like that before (disregarding any between-film EU stuff). How could he have possibly been prepared for something like that to happen?

 

--------------------

 

Anyway, as for the subject at hand (Revan vs. ungimped Anakin), personally I think it's difficult to say.

 

Lucas has stated before, I believe, that the Jedi as they were in the Prequels were supposed to be the Jedi "in their prime", or, in other words, at the height of their knowledge of the Force.

 

On the other hand, going off of information displayed in KotOR and in the films, it seems that swordplay has degraded over the millennia, perhaps, not due to any ineptitude on the part of the Jedi, but simply due to the lack of opponents. It makes sense that the Jedi of the prequels are going to be pretty rusty in lightsaber vs. lightsaber fights when such fighting hasn't frequently taken place in over a millennium (again, disregarding all EU besides KotOR).

 

So, in short, we have:

KotOR: +Lightsaber,-Knowledge

Prequels: -Lightsaber, +Knowledge

 

So on one side we have Anakin, who lives during the peak of knowledge, happens to be an above average swordsman for his time, and also has the potential to exceed any other Jedi, though whether or not he would ever achieve this potential is unknown.

 

On the other side is Revan, who lives in a time where the average swordsman may be just as skilled as Anakin (because they have considerably more "field experience" fighting other Jedi), and he also happens to excel in his own knowledge of the Force.

 

Each character seems to make up for the deficiencies of their own era in such a way that it makes it difficult to truly gauge who would outperform who.

 

Ultimately, my ego wants me to side with Revan, because, whereas Anakin is some whiny kid, Revan is technically me (and you!), and why would I not vote for myself?

[Giant Graffiti]

I mean anyone can defeat Darth Vader and Darth Sidious at that time because they were both old.

Yoda was old, too. Your point?

[Ping]

I'm pretty sure that the Star Wars Chuck Norris is Kyle Katarn.

QFT. Katarn's the only guy I know that could go into an Imperial base alone and come out alive.

 

And also, Revan could not beat Luke or Yoda, and seeing how Sidious is able to use Force storm, I'd say he could beat Revan, too.

 

And about my previous comment, I take back what I said. Lucas said the duel between Luke and Vader in RotJ was like "a kid going against a cripple", according to someone who posted in this thread (forget who, sorry). Seeing how Vader went against eight Jedi and came out alive (wounded, but alive) imagine what would happen if Anakin went in there pre-Vader suit. He'd still get alot of cuts, no doubt, but he'd probably be able to take more of them on and kill them.

[Forogorn]

Yoda is old, but he's different, he is much more intelligent and wise than Sidious was. Sidious was weaken when he shocked Mace Windu and it backfired. Anakin was weakened when he was cut into pieces and got burnt. Luke could have easily defeat both of them, but he didn't because he's weak. Why does everybody disagree with me? I am just trying to show a different point of view, a view that shows every jedi's weakness. Why can't people believe that a jedi can have weaknesses too not just strength?

[RedHawke]

And I'm also sure that Darth Sidious, Yoda and Luke would all beat Revan too.... But I know the Revan fanboys won't hear of that.

Luke? Yes.

 

Yoda? Maybe.

 

Darth Sidious? No.

You just made Jon's point...

[Lord of Hunger]

@ Redhawke: I don't see how. If I had said "Revan ownz all n00bs" then yes. But each case is different.

 

Luke is the most powerful of all post-Great Hyperspace War Jedi from where I am standing. His potential is somewhat less than Anakin, but by the Legacy era he has harnessed all that power and focused it to an extent that makes him surpass Revan. At that point, the only thing that Luke doesn't have that Revan has is the knowledge of the Ancient/True Sith, but that's not enough.

 

Yoda I'd say is about equal to Revan in terms of potential and focus. Yoda is probably a better duelist, but Revan still has all that Sith knowledge. It's a very narrow battle.

 

Darth Sidious, as I tried to point out in a different thread, is often overestimated. People will often point to his Force Storm as the ultimate trump card, ignoring that it lacks control. Revan is the more subtle individual. In terms of mental prowess, Revan's the one that did not bow down to the Dark Side, but accepted it when absolutely necessary. In terms of persuasion, Revan is the one who actually changes loyalties rather than just bending existing ones. In terms of Sith knowledge, much of Sidious' knowledge comes from Revan, though the latter was unlikely to impart any of the Ancient Sith techniques. Potential may be on a similar level, but Revan has a greater level of focus. He's been harden by war after all. The only advantage that Sidious may have is knowing all of the lightsaber forms save Vaapad. But then again, if Mace with Vaapad could beat Sidious, so can Revan with Juyo.

[Ace of Swords]

But Anakin is the chosen one; well was the chosen one. He was George Lucas' favorite and he was the one Lucas said was the most powerful Jedi ever.

 

Cling to G-canon.

Cling to G-canon.

Cling to G-canon.

 

George says it's Anakin

George says it's Anakin

George says it's Anakin

 

Most everything else points to Revan, but it's not like you can contradict G-canon.

 

Let's run a couple... just for giggles.

 

G-canon is absolute canon; the movies (their most recent release), the scripts, the novelizations of the movies, the radio plays, and any statements by George Lucas himself. G-canon overrides the lower levels of canon when there is a contradiction. Within G-canon, many fans follow an unofficial progression of canonicity where the movies are the highest canon, followed by the scripts, the novelizations, and then the radio plays.

 

T-canon[1] refers to the canon level comprising only the two television shows: Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the Star Wars live-action TV series. Its precedence over C-Level canon was confirmed by Chee[2].

vs.

 

N-canon is non-canon. "What-if" stories (such as stories published under the Star Wars: Infinities label), crossover appearances (such as the Star Wars character appearances in Soulcalibur IV), game statistics, and anything else directly contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N-canon is the only level that is not considered official canon by Lucasfilm. A significant amount of material that was previously C-canon was rendered N-canon by the release of Episodes I-III.

I can dream, can't I?

 

And for the record, Revan.

Why?

 

Well they say the student is a reflection of the master...

>

[Ping]

Yoda I'd say is about equal to Revan in terms of potential and focus. Yoda is probably a better duelist, but Revan still has all that Sith knowledge. It's a very narrow battle.

 

I am going to have to point out that it's implied at several points that, in the long run, light side beats dark side. Besides, Yoda has

 

Darth Sidious, as I tried to point out in a different thread, is often overestimated. People will often point to his Force Storm as the ultimate trump card, ignoring that it lacks control. Revan is the more subtle individual. In terms of mental prowess, Revan's the one that did not bow down to the Dark Side, but accepted it when absolutely necessary.

 

Actually, the Dark Side is based off of strength and brute force (someone correct me if I'm wrong), and seeing how Revan, as you said, is more subtle with the Dark Side, brute force beats subtelty between dark siders.

 

In terms of persuasion, Revan is the one who actually changes loyalties rather than just bending existing ones. In terms of Sith knowledge, much of Sidious' knowledge comes from Revan, though the latter was unlikely to impart any of the Ancient Sith techniques. Potential may be on a similar level, but Revan has a greater level of focus. He's been harden by war after all. The only advantage that Sidious may have is knowing all of the lightsaber forms save Vaapad. But then again, if Mace with Vaapad could beat Sidious, so can Revan with Juyo.

 

There has been no source, to my knowledge, that says Palpy knew every lightsaber form, or any source that says Revan knew Juyo either. While he does make that opening stance, it's never explicitly stated that it's Juyo. Kind of like the Exile and Battle Meditation - it's possible, but never explicitly stated. And you also forget that Palpatine was able to convince the vast majority of the Republic government to become an Empire. That's much better than Revan. Revan may also be focused by war, but if you hear the quote from Darth Plagiues, it's implied that his training was just as intense.

[Astor]

While he does make that opening stance, it's never explicitly stated that it's Juyo. Kind of like the Exile and Battle Meditation - it's possible, but never explicitly stated.

 

Agreed. It's impossible to make any proper comparisons between Revan and Insert Person Here because none of his specific abilities are stated, precisely because each player has their own build/intepretation of Revan, making it hard to get a true measure of Revan's capabilities and powers.

[Mono_Giganto]

There has been no source, to my knowledge, ... that says Revan knew Juyo either. While he does make that opening stance, it's never explicitly stated that it's Juyo.

 

Is all of this speculation on Revan's lightsaber form based on that cutscene from K1? I was always under the impression that (s)he only took that stance because it was gender-neutral, as opposed to the straight/slanted stances that males and females used respectively.

[jonathan7]

Darth Sidious, as I tried to point out in a different thread, is often overestimated. People will often point to his Force Storm as the ultimate trump card, ignoring that it lacks control. Revan is the more subtle individual. In terms of mental prowess, Revan's the one that did not bow down to the Dark Side, but accepted it when absolutely necessary.

 

Quite simply no. Sidious is far more subtle than Revan. Sidious manipulated the entire Republic into making him Supreme Chancellor, and then manipulated them further into letting him stay on beyond his terms, and then manipulated them into thinking making him Emporer was a good idea.

 

Revan charged off to war with Mandalorians then came back to conquor the Republic... That's really Subtle

 

On the other hand; Darth Sidious manipulated the entire Clone Wars so he could destroy the Jedi and Rule the universe - I would say his methods were pretty subtle considering the Jedi Council on numerous occassions were within inches of the Sith lord they were looking for.

 

In terms of mental prowess I put forward that the above shows Sidious to be the more "bright". Finally of course George himself has stated that Darth Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord ever

[Lord of Hunger]

I am going to have to point out that it's implied at several points that, in the long run, light side beats dark side. Besides, Yoda has

According to what? Star Wars history says quite the opposite. Take the Jedi Civil War. The Light won the big Battle, but the Dark won the entire war through sheer attrition. Just because the Sith Empire was destroyed doesn't mean that the Sith lost. They achieved their goal of destroying the Jedi.

Actually, the Dark Side is based off of strength and brute force (someone correct me if I'm wrong), and seeing how Revan, as you said, is more subtle with the Dark Side, brute force beats subtelty between dark siders.

Well I will now correct you.

 

Examples where subtly wins:

-Force Vampiricy: Nihilus's ability (which is shared by the Exile and the Sith Assassins) is actually extremely subtle. In contrast to Palpatine's devastating Force Storm, which lacks control and drains the user of energy, Force Vampiricy destroys connections in life and the Force and allows the users to feed upon the energy in those connections. Ultimately, it is a net gain. It is also subtle in that the physical influence is a symptom rather than a cause.

-Sith Sorcery: The ability to create illusions is very subtle. It can lead to the decimation of entire fleets, in fact.

-Dun Moch: The philosophy of Dun Moch involves targeting the mind rather than the body, which weakens both.

-Perception Control: Darth Traya used the Dark Side to completely control the minds of even Force Sensitives.

There has been no source, to my knowledge, that says Palpy knew every lightsaber form, or any source that says Revan knew Juyo either. While he does make that opening stance, it's never explicitly stated that it's Juyo. Kind of like the Exile and Battle Meditation - it's possible, but never explicitly stated.

Perhaps the Juyo is a theory, but read Palpatine's page on Wookiepedia.

And you also forget that Palpatine was able to convince the vast majority of the Republic government to become an Empire. That's much better than Revan. Revan may also be focused by war, but if you hear the quote from Darth Plagiues, it's implied that his training was just as intense.

There is evidence to suggest that the sentiment of the Core Worlds was towards Imperialism. Palpatine essentially messed with existing loyalties, rather than make new ones like Revan.

 

But then again, you should see the thread on this.

[Ping]

Alright, so i was wrong about the Dark Side, but if you'll notice, Palpatine's page on Wookieepedia isn't exactly sourced too much.

 

There is evidence to suggest that the sentiment of the Core Worlds was towards Imperialism. Palpatine essentially messed with existing loyalties, rather than make new ones like Revan.

Suggest, not confirm.

 

Anyways, we simply don't know enough about Revan to accurately gauge his power, and the stuff that we do know doesn't really compare to what the other characters have done. Until I see new info about Revan, I'm going to have to call Anakin on this one.

[Darth Avlectus]

Actually, the Dark Side is based off of strength and brute force (someone correct me if I'm wrong), and seeing how Revan, as you said, is more subtle with the Dark Side, brute force beats subtelty between dark siders.

 

That is an oversimplification. Light and Dark are intent, not necessarily just the powers or techniques themselves.

 

 

 

Now, I'm going to try to clear up some of this about the lightsaber forms and whatnot:

 

There has been no source, to my knowledge, that says Palpy knew every lightsaber form, or any source that says Revan knew Juyo either.

 

Depends. Not explicitly, no. There are some that imply he did, though--or at least Sidious may not have been using either variant of the 7th from, BUT, he may have had enough insight and knowledge enough to be able to fight against it.

 

Not unlike the darksided Exile's accelerated learning, nor the assists to those ends her mentor offered as the mentor was rather knowledgeable for not actually using those forms, wouldn't you say?

 

While he does make that opening stance, it's never explicitly stated that it's Juyo.

True. I think where it (fanon speculation) comes from is a desire to explain the edge Revan could have had over Malak.

 

Agreed. It's impossible to make any proper comparisons between Revan and Insert Person Here because none of his specific abilities are stated, precisely because each player has their own build/intepretation of Revan, making it hard to get a true measure of Revan's capabilities and powers.

 

Very true. As much as I do wish Revan were a Juyo stylist, there is nothing explicitly nor implicitly to back that up, unfortunately.

 

Is all of this speculation on Revan's lightsaber form based on that cutscene from K1? I was always under the impression that (s)he only took that stance because it was gender-neutral, as opposed to the straight/slanted stances that males and females used respectively.

 

I as well, before I ever learned about the lightsaber forms...and I was actually learning about sword forms IRL when I first played KOTOR. And no, I don't think most of you would appreciate me going into depth about that.

 

The only advantage that Sidious may have is knowing all of the lightsaber forms save Vaapad. But then again, if Mace with Vaapad could beat Sidious, so can Revan with Juyo.

I don't think that was the *only* advantage Mace had over Darth Sidious.

 

Unfortunately, I doubt if anything more will be canonized about Revan's fighting style, though we might get a reason why he had an additional violet saber in the vision you encounter in TSL. Which might have been either Revan in the past, or possibly Revan in the future...We may never know...

 

Perhaps the Juyo is a theory, but read Palpatine's page on Wookiepedia.

 

I've read

1) Karpyshyn's Darth Bane novels: Path of Destruction and Rule of Two. Though some indiscrepancy is present, both in naming of the form and implied by the sudden shift to a very ferocious sounding form (by its descriptions), it does seem to point in the direction that Sidious could have known Juyo.

2) Stover's Novels Shatterpoint and R.O.T.S. which pertain to both Palpatine and Vapaad in parts. It's a stretch to say it, but, Mathew Stover might have implied that sidious may have at least glimpsed Mace's form by sith magic, if not a little more than glimpse. Based on a bare minimum, but then again I can't really think of why else he would put it in there or try to portray Sidious as being even stronger (albeit old and tired) than in the movies. Practically rooting for him, even.

 

Whether or not Stover was bucking Obsidian's work in TSL for their (alleged) copycat with his ROTS novel regarding form 7, I can't be sure...but if I ever get the chance, I'll ask him about it.

 

Matthew Stover, if you're reading this, consider this an invite. You too, Drew Karpyshyn. I'd also welcome any spokesperson for obsidian to have input here as well.

 

Either way... <shrugs>

[Lord of Hunger]

Agreed. It's impossible to make any proper comparisons between Revan and Insert Person Here because none of his specific abilities are stated, precisely because each player has their own build/intepretation of Revan, making it hard to get a true measure of Revan's capabilities and powers.

Except pre-amnesia Revan is a different person than post-amnesia Revan, and we are most certainly referring to pre-amnesia Revan. Pre-amnesia Revan's powers are actually quite well documented.

 

But in any event, this debate in general is getting a bit tiresome. No one can really say anything particularly good about Anakin so they reaction is to criticize Revan. When Revan is well-defended, it is claimed that everything about Revan is speculation and unknown when that is not true in the slightest. The final defense of course is to say "G-Canon, you lose!", prompting everyone to repeat the whole thing over again.

 

The fact remains that a vastly intelligent and focused Sith Lord wielding advanced techniques will beat a whinny self-centered emo brat in a fair fight any day. Note I said "fair fight". Grabbing Sidious from behind and tossing him into a reactor does not count as a fair fight.

 

*awaits for snarky reaction*

[RedHawke]

@ Redhawke: I don't see how.

You seem to equate ancient as better in Star Wars, many of your arguments across several threads here have given me this impression.

 

I see it just the opposite, that 'Ancient' in Star Wars does not equate to better, not by a long shot.

 

I see the universe of Star Wars as a very stagnant place with very little actual change over the centuries... this impression was made more apparent in some of the EU, like KotOR and TSL. They had wars yes, and even some 'brinks' to come back from, but things always normalized and it was business as usual. The ancient Sith were not any more than the modern ones.

 

So while I have no doubt that Revan, Malak, Traya, Nihilus, and even Sion have something possibly unique to bring to the table as would Bane, Kun, etc., they are not however, more powerful simply because of their place in the Star Wars time-line... or because they displayed some sort of 'unstoppable' power. It has been shown, and even pointed out in Star Wars itself that 'there is always a bigger fish'. And all of them ultimately got stopped one way or another... including Sidious.

 

Darth Sidious, as I tried to point out in a different thread, is often overestimated.

Others will disagree, and they have Canon backing them up, which I see can be quite frustrating to people who feel like you do even more.

 

My personal take on Sidious; Sidious was very powerful (bloated even more tremendously in the EU), and since this is one of the older things in the EU many of the more modern writers try to out do it, and while they can for their readers zeitgeist, they also forget the fact that Sidious was the most successful/powerful of the Sith because Lucas stated such and he was the Sith Lord in the story of Anakin, and was shown in the 6 movies to be a very powerful being and a force to be reckoned with, ultimately betrayed by his apprentice, as he too betrayed his master (Hinted at in the PT as being Darth Plageus). While this last paragraph is somewhat off-topic here I just want to clarify where I would be coming from on said argument.

 

On-Topic: Revan Vs. pre-suit Anakin... close one, too close to call... it would depend highly on Revan being Jedi Knight Revan or Darth Revan but it would be a hell of a fight either way.

[Forogorn]

I see it just the opposite, that 'Ancient' in Star Wars does not equate to better, not by a long shot.

 

I agree with you RedHawke, that's what I've been trying to point out, that Anakin can be as strong as Revan too.

[DarthJacen]

If not more so, being the son of the Living Force gives him an advantage that Revan born of a mother and father does not have. It is stated in "Labyrinth of Evil" by James Luceno disguised as Anakin thinking during the battle of Cato Nemoidia that other Jedi used the Force, but Anakin was the Force. He never had to call upon the Force because he was always connected as a son would be to his father through communication.

 

So, my vote if for Anakin, plus being able to see the future in combat helps him a lot. Even though, I'm sure it would be close as either Jedi or Sith versions of both would be hard to kill. Truthfully, though, only the sith versions would ever attack each other without due process.

[Darth Avlectus]

Anakin's power did slightly diminish, though, with the (I should say first) loss of his right arm.

[adamqd]

I think the fact of the matter is, George says one thing, but does another... He states that Anakin is the Chosen one of Prophecy, and the most gifted Jedi of all era's, yet he only wins like one (Pre-suit) G-canon fight lol... he gets owned by Dooku, then kills the 80 yr old, then gets the greatest ass whooping and ownage in cinematic history, and put into an Iron lung, tragic hero maybe, but greatest Jedi ever... Nope.

 

Revan is a Playable Character on a game, his feats are bound to be over the top and interesting... it's Your personal story.

 

The Jedi and Sith of the films (Apart from some of Sidious powers and accomplishments) seem more like Ninjas or special Police officers than the fabled mystical warriors of the the Pre-Ruusan Republic.

 

So I'll have to recount my Vote and say Draw, on the grounds of Lack of evidence and Canon status favoritism.

[purifier]

Ahem.....I'm just gonna go with a draw, partner. Because until we actually see it, there is really no way of knowning who would actually win.

 

Things don't always come out in the end, the way you think they would.

[Ping]

@ Redhawke: I don't see how. If I had said "Revan ownz all n00bs" then yes. But each case is different.

 

Not to resurrect a dead topic or anything, but from what I've seen, plenty of people usually classify Revan fanboys as those who think that Revan is either the most powerful Jedi ever, or one of the most powerful Jedi ever.

[Czerka-agent]

Not to resurrect a dead topic or anything, but from what I've seen, plenty of people usually classify Revan fanboys as those who think that Revan is either the most powerful Jedi ever, or one of the most powerful Jedi ever.

 

Hey, what's that supposed to mean? Revan is one of the most powerful jedi. Since I think that, that classifys me as a fanboy? Nearly everyone thinks that. Does that mean there all fanboys? You don't have to like to admire.

 

I think Revan has a better chance.