The Confirmed Truth Behind Revan & Malak

[deathdisco]

Nope no rule broken...

 

When people mess with things I do like in a story to introduce some crappy schlock I don't like I usually do this...

 

 

Then proceed to attempt to ignore it altogether.

 

This is why I believe the way I do about the whole of the Star Wars EU... I see it all as a large Star Wars 'Salad Bar' I can take what I want and gladly LEAVE the rest.

 

TOR had so much promise but lacks in all areas for me, like the first SWG did. So come all to DDO... we literally do get cookies during the holidays.

 

You've said that before and that's the best piece of advice one could give on the EU.

I lost all faith on the EU being able to maintain any sort of continuity long ago. Every new story means new retcons to try to patch it all together and they're usually bad.

Maybe Revan can get some love from DrewK. since he's joining TOR's writing team.

 

{snip}

 

I prefer K1 due to it's "pure" Star Wars feel. That doesn't mean I discount TSL's story. It's a different kind of story and my only complaint is that it was unfinished. Kreia is probably the best written character from that era. Which is evident from all the love/hate she generates.

[jonathan7]

Ok guys, please keep it on topic, rants about TSL should be in threads pertaining directly to that particular game. Deleted the responses TSL rant caused too. -- j7

[Tobias Reiper]

TBH, I pretty much guessed this.

It was pretty obvious the second I heard about the 'True Sith'.

[cire992]

Meh, too bad. I'm sure they could have thought up at least a half dozen more interesting ideas that still involved the new sithies in some way. Oh well.

[rrcatto]

Ok guys, please keep it on topic, rants about TSL should be in threads pertaining directly to that particular game. Deleted the responses TSL rant caused too. -- j7

 

<snipped flamebait>

[Giant Graffiti]

Smart move.

[cire992]

Yikes, what was that all about....

[Darth Avlectus]

Aaanyway.

 

I suppose this is a tad premature. We don't know yet how much/little has been taken away from TSL yet. I'm not going to get my hopes up they'll keep it, though some consolation is that the same reason that TSL was rushed through: L.A.

 

TOR may not necessarily invalidate TSL. We'll just have to wait and see.

[FaZzZa99]

Post from Daniel Erikson on the TOR forums -

 

Wow. Great thread. It's fantastic to see all the excitement around the KOTOR lore. There is much that we obviously aren’t revealing but I did want to clear up any misconceptions about what I was talking about in the interview.

 

* Revan and Malak went into deep space and met the Sith Emperor. They were turned and sent back to prepare the way for the return of the true Sith.

* Being Sith and away from the Emperor’s direct influence neither Revan nor Malak followed orders exactly as they were supposed to. Then, of course, Malak betrayed Revan.

* The Jedi took in Revan and returned him to the light, though as it was not a natural turn for him when he went dark, there was much they couldn’t undo and they decided to remove his memories and hopefully his taint with it. Yes, Revan’s return to the light (and his gender as male) are canon.

* Later Revan returned to deep space to confront what he knew was out there but how much he actually remembered and how clearly he remembered it is still a mystery, as are the events that followed. What we do know is that it took hundreds of years for the Sith to re-emerge as originally planned.

 

The rest is all speculation and have fun with that. For those of you convinced that somehow we’re going to destroy KOTOR, I ask you to remember that the creative team (including the lead writer and lead designer) that was in charge of KOTOR’s story is on this staff, working on this game. Trust us that our investment in this lore is at least as strong as yours.

[cire992]

Wouldn't it have been easier to... you know... not say anything at all? I mean, leave it a mystery, that is. This whole thing is just so convoluted.

 

Revan met the sith emperor, and got turned to the dark side? But it wasn't natural? So they gave him amnesia? And then he went back out there to the unknown, and then its a mystery.

 

or:

 

Revan fell to the dark side in the Unknown Regions for an unknown reason. Because of this, the jedi wiped his memory rather than trying to sway him back. Later he went back to the Unknown and then its a mystery.

 

Not like anyone in the game knew he met the sith emperor. And now they're retconning and making crap up for no reason than to leave no question unanswered. Silly.

[Sir Vougalot]

Really? As I remember it, Revan turned to the dark side out of necessity in order to fortify the Republic against the True Sith. That's what was said in TSL.

 

Oh, so they didn't go and find the Star Forge anymore?

 

So first it was the Star Forge that turned Revan and Malak to the dark side as stated in K1.

 

Then it was Revan turning to the dark side to prevent a greater evil which I could live with as the stories were connected well in TSL.

 

Now, it was the Sith Emperor of the True Sith in TOR.

 

Yeah, this gets better and better.

 

I don't think it's said that the Sith Emperor was responsible for their fall the dark side. Instead, I think it is implied that he was the one who made them Sith (which, if you think about it, would mean that Revan, Malak, and all of their followers were indeed true Sith, despite what Kreia said). Remember, falling to the dark side and joining the Sith are not the same thing, and they need not necessarily occur at once.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Edit] For those concerned that they are ignoring The Sith Lords altogether, the following is copied from my two latest posts on The Old Republic's forum:

 

Actually I think I remember the "true Sith" was given mention in the first game's loading screens.

 

Dude, I believe we (collectively) have been through this many times on these forums now: The "true Sith" mentioned in the loading screen was obviously a throw-away line that they intended to do nothing with. And it clearly does not refer to the same group that Kreia refers to. In the loading screen, seems clear (sorry to be so redundant here) that "true Sith" refers to the Sith species seen in the Tales of the Jedi comics, in order to differentiate between them and the mostly human Sith seen in the game. The "true Sith" mentioned in The Sith Lords originally referred to something else entirely, having nothing to do with the line of succession that was a hybrid of the Sith species and the exiled Dark Jedi from the Hundred-Year Darkness (despite the claims LucasArts is making to the contrary now, Obsidian clearly had something else in mind back when they made the game); but now it refers to the remnant of the Old Sith Empire that has been plotting in secret from the Unknown Regions, fleeing known space after the Great Hyperspace war.

 

Sorry to sound so snappy, but I'm getting a little tired of people trying to point out that the "true Sith" idea came from the first game when it obviously did not. In fact, I doubt very much that BioWare ever anticipated that that one line from the loading screen - which was obviously used without much thought to describe something very simple to the audience - would gain so much attention later on.

 

That doesn't really clear anything up, but only confirms mine and others suspicions that TSL's canon is being ignored and even flat-out retconned. He seems to have pulled Revan's allegiance to the Sith Emperor out of thin air, as that was never even hinted at in K1. Also, notice how he speaks of preserving KotOR's canon as if it is the monastery at Petra, but says nothing concerning K2, not even an allusion or implication.

 

Uh, how? Retconned, yes, but certainly not ignored. Why? because this whole "true Sith" idea comes straight out of The Sith Lords (and if you're thinking of using the but-they-were-mentioned-in-KOTOR excuse, see my above post). In fact, it was because of TSL's ending that fans have been anxiously wondering about these mysterious "true Sith" for years, such fascination clearly being the driving motive behind the story of this game.

 

How was Revan's allegiance to the Sith Emperor hinted at in KOTOR? Also, kudos for mentioning the Monastery of Petra!

[godofsith]

Really? As I remember it, Revan turned to the dark side out of necessity in order to fortify the Republic against the True Sith. That's what was said in TSL.

 

Oh, so they didn't go and find the Star Forge anymore?

 

So first it was the Star Forge that turned Revan and Malak to the dark side as stated in K1.

 

Then it was Revan turning to the dark side to prevent a greater evil which I could live with as the stories were connected well in TSL.

 

Now, it was the Sith Emperor of the True Sith in TOR.

 

Yeah, this gets better and better.

 

 

how sayed that this so calld emperor was not on the starforge wateing for them sith are wierd like that some times he might ave known thay were coming and gon there to wate for them

[cire992]

^ I thought we had rules on this forum about deliberately using terrible grammar...

 

I can't understand any of that post.

 

Depends if they are a native English speaker or not -- j7

[Ping]

^ I thought we had rules on this forum about deliberately using terrible grammar...

 

I can't understand any of that post.

 

He's saying he thinks the True Sith knew Revan was coming and met him on the Star Forge. Load of bull if you ask me.

[Tobias Reiper]

how sayed that this so calld emperor was not on the starforge wateing for them sith are wierd like that some times he might ave known thay were coming and gon there to wate for them

 

<snipped>

 

Don't say things like that again! -- j7

[Astor]

C'mon guys, let's not start ridiculing people because of their spelling abilities. Not everyone has the same command of the English language, and not everyone has English as a first language.

 

I agree, any further comments about people's language abilities in this thread will result in infractions being issued; please get back on topic people -- j7

[Litofsky]

After reading over this thread, I can't help but agree with the majority: it seems that the developers want to disassemble all of the ideas that TSL laid down, and stick with their ideas about Revan. Way to keep to canon.

 

At any rate, I was iffy about the game being from the beginning, what with all of us having to pay monthly for the game. Destroying the a decent plot to fit in with their game is just another kick while we're down.

[Brin_Londo5]

Y'know, considering that TSL was an unfinished and badly-enacted retcon of KotOR in the first place, I'm not feeling any outrage at TOR at all.

 

Retcon #1 (and the most egregious, in my opinion) was the (Krea's) claim that the Jedi Council wiped Darth Revan's memories and then gave him a new identity loyal to the Republic, but all statements concerning this in KotOR stated simply that the Jedi Council couldn't RESTORE Revan's personality "since Revan was too dangerous"; to me this implies that Revan's loss of memory was more due to cerebral damage that the turbolaser explosion on the bridge inflicted by Malak's attack before Bastilla saved Revan's life.

Add to this the (completely fanon) idea that Krea is Arren Kae (and thus the Handmaiden's mommy), the near-ineffectiveness of the Exile (who can't seem to make a lightsaber without an engineer on hand, or even WITH one if the previous ten years is accounted for), and the Fixer-Sue characters that continually save the day, I'd say let TSL die a slow death.

 

The only reason I still play it is that my newer quad-core processor PC has no problem running the TSL software, while KotOR itself crashes every fifteen seconds or so (still haven't gotten off the Endar Spire on this new rig, and I might not ever.)

If it wasn't for the Ultimate Saber Mod, I'd have retired TSL a year ago, and stuck to Jedi Academy.

[deathdisco]

Y'know, considering that TSL was an unfinished and badly-enacted retcon of KotOR in the first place, I'm not feeling any outrage at TOR at all.

 

Retcon #1 (and the most egregious, in my opinion) was the (Krea's) claim that the Jedi Council wiped Darth Revan's memories and then gave him a new identity loyal to the Republic, but all statements concerning this in KotOR stated simply that the Jedi Council couldn't RESTORE Revan's personality "since Revan was too dangerous"; to me this implies that Revan's loss of memory was more due to cerebral damage that the turbolaser explosion on the bridge inflicted by Malak's attack before Bastilla saved Revan's life.

 

I agree that it's a contradiction, It also changes the magnitude of what the Jedi Masters did.

Either they were just taking advantage of an opportunity that presented itself or they completely mind raped Revan. The latter I find to be questionable ethics on the Jedi Council's part.

Regardless this was established before TSL was released so blame Lucasarts/Lucas Licensing for that.

Add to this the (completely fanon) idea that Krea is Arren Kae (and thus the Handmaiden's mommy), the near-ineffectiveness of the Exile (who can't seem to make a lightsaber without an engineer on hand, or even WITH one if the previous ten years is accounted for), and the Fixer-Sue characters that continually save the day, I'd say let TSL die a slow death.

 

There's nothing fanon about it. There's plenty of evidence in the game to support it. Even Chris Avellone has alluded to it. Again Lucasarts/Lucas Licensing has final say on the matter and they have yet to reveal anything on Kreia's backstory.

The lighsaber quest is only game-play mechanics to try to balance the game. That's why they make you wait to build a lightsaber. Also the PC had no reason to have a lightsaber while exiled.

The only reason I still play it is that my newer quad-core processor PC has no problem running the TSL software, while KotOR itself crashes every fifteen seconds or so (still haven't gotten off the Endar Spire on this new rig, and I might not ever.)

If it wasn't for the Ultimate Saber Mod, I'd have retired TSL a year ago, and stuck to Jedi Academy.

 

Maybe you should look into playing a different game instead of enduring such punishment.

[TKA-001]

Either they were just taking advantage of an opportunity that presented itself or they completely mind raped Revan. The latter I find to be questionable ethics on the Jedi Council's part.

What happened to Revan's mind wasn't changed. His brain got ****ed up when Malak betrayed him (having a landmine go off under your feet can do that to ya). If Kreia does indeed say that the Jedi Council mind-wiped Revan (I don't recall when or where she ever says this in the game. As far as I know, she hardly at all talks about what happens to him between his capture and Malak's Death), then the obvious explanation is that either she's making an assumption (since she sure as hell wasn't present for any of those events) or ignoring the facts because she's a Revan fangirl. Regardless of whether Kreia believes she's telling the truth about this matter (again, assuming that she says anything about it at all), the fact of the matter is that it's the word of Kreia, who was not there, against the word of Bastila and the other Jedi, who were there.

[jonathan7]

Y'know, considering that TSL was an unfinished and badly-enacted retcon of KotOR in the first place, I'm not feeling any outrage at TOR at all.

 

I really don't see how it was a badly enacted retcon of KotOR; I really like TSL; I know the game is divisive, but I don't personally see how it retcons TSL, unless you happen to believe what Kreia tells you - and I'd say regard everything she says with an air of scepticism.

 

Retcon #1 (and the most egregious, in my opinion) was the (Krea's) claim that the Jedi Council wiped Darth Revan's memories and then gave him a new identity loyal to the Republic, but all statements concerning this in KotOR stated simply that the Jedi Council couldn't RESTORE Revan's personality "since Revan was too dangerous"; to me this implies that Revan's loss of memory was more due to cerebral damage that the turbolaser explosion on the bridge inflicted by Malak's attack before Bastilla saved Revan's life.

 

See, I disagree, I'd say even within K1 it is hinted at that the Jedi Masters gave him a Republic loyal personality; consider the revelation video and Bastila saying "What greater weapon is there, than to turn an enemy to your cause". Furthermore Kreia just states that the Jedi Masters just revealed the true Revan again; she doesn't say they "mind raped" him.

 

Add to this the (completely fanon) idea that Krea is Arren Kae (and thus the Handmaiden's mommy), the near-ineffectiveness of the Exile (who can't seem to make a lightsaber without an engineer on hand, or even WITH one if the previous ten years is accounted for), and the Fixer-Sue characters that continually save the day, I'd say let TSL die a slow death.

 

Given the evidence, I don't think we can really conclude much on the Arren Kae/Kreia side of things; I'm sure if there was an intention they were the same person that, that will be retconned out of existence. Personally I like the Arren Kae/Kreia theory, despite your condescension of it.

 

The only reason I still play it is that my newer quad-core processor PC has no problem running the TSL software, while KotOR itself crashes every fifteen seconds or so (still haven't gotten off the Endar Spire on this new rig, and I might not ever.)

If it wasn't for the Ultimate Saber Mod, I'd have retired TSL a year ago, and stuck to Jedi Academy.

 

See, I really like K2 because it returned Star Wars to being far more gritty, like the first two films were opposed to the happy kids films, that Lucas took the series in the direction of.

[Ghost]

Y'know, considering that TSL was an unfinished and badly-enacted retcon of KotOR in the first place

 

True it was unfinished, but that does not mean it was bad. Sure it could have been better, but I really don't see how it is as bad as you think

 

Retcon #1 (and the most egregious, in my opinion) was the (Krea's) claim that the Jedi Council wiped Darth Revan's memories and then gave him a new identity loyal to the Republic, but all statements concerning this in KotOR stated simply that the Jedi Council couldn't RESTORE Revan's personality "since Revan was too dangerous"; to me this implies that Revan's loss of memory was more due to cerebral damage that the turbolaser explosion on the bridge inflicted by Malak's attack before Bastilla saved Revan's life.

 

If you played Kotor, then you would know that they hinted that they wiped his memory and gave him a pet one. Remember in Revelations? I do know that Revan did take a serious blow during that attack, but it never really did any permanent damage, as TSL states when Revan remembers the Unknown Threat

 

Add to this the (completely fanon) idea that Krea is Arren Kae (and thus the Handmaiden's mommy)

 

It is not confirmed that Kreia is Kae, but there is plenty of evidence. On youtube plenty of videos sum up dialogue which lead to that Kreia could possibly be Kae. But there is no true conclusion

 

, the near-ineffectiveness of the Exile (who can't seem to make a lightsaber without an engineer on hand, or even WITH one if the previous ten years is accounted for)

 

Do you even know what Exile mean's? Look it up. The Exile was no longer a jedi, and thus had no worthiness of keeping jedi items. I highly doubt the Exile would care for a lightsaber right after she was exiled. Plus, 10 years is a long time. The Exile probably wanted to forget entirely about the Jedi due to their arrogance and fear. That would probably also explain why she also forgot how to construct a lightsaber.

 

, and the Fixer-Sue characters that continually save the day

 

What's so wrong with that? The NPCs are pretty much actually what inspired the Exile to continue. And, to tell you the truth, TSL is not the "defeat the evil sith and save the day" type game. It is pretty much a knowledgeable darker plot which makes sense.

 

I'd say let TSL die a slow death.

 

Well, its TSL which inspired people to mod Kotor in the 1st place. There was so much cut content that people wanted to restore it. TSL is the mark which keep the community alive. So, right now it is coming back, thanks to TSLRCM

 

I personally like TSL because it is dark. More suited for the older age group. You need to really listen in the game to understand.

[Blix]

Hmm meeting an ancient Sith Emperor in unknown space, yes that would explain why Revan left everyone behind (at least a motive) to seek these "true Sith" and destroy them (as much as I hate the idea of a Sith Emperor, just don't let it be Naga Sadow).

Now it sort of makes me wonder if Revan corrupted Kreia (instead of the other way around) by taking her to Trayus Academy on Malachor V (Sith Emperor probably told him where to look).

 

To add onto the Revan/memory topic, all sorts of hints are dropped right in front of the player's eyes and Master Vrook made perhaps the most obvious hint: "I fear this search for the Star Forge may lead you down an all too familiar path."HmmmH

[jonathan7]

Now it sort of makes me wonder if Revan corrupted Kreia (instead of the other way around) by taking her to Trayus Academy on Malachor V (Sith Emperor probably told him where to look).

 

I don't think Kreia corrupted Revan; especially if you believe her that it was Revan's choice/sacrifice to become a Dark Lord...

 

Besides in the Chronicles that were on the games official site prior to release the following was recorded;

 

JEDI MASTER KREIA, Revan's old mentor, is still haunted by guilt, wondering whether it was her teaching that resulted in Revan's fall to the dark side, and begins to search for him. Sensing his last location, she travels to Malachor V, but is unable to shield her emotions, and is completely consumed by the dark side of the Force. She is lost to the Jedi, spending the next several years on Malachor V, learning its secrets, and eventually becoming The master of the Sith academy there. Guided by Kreia's influence, Sith assassins once again begin to emerge silently from Malachor V and strike at isolated Jedi across the Republic, capturing some Jedi to turn to the dark side, and slaying those that resist. Taken to the dark side world of Malachor V to be fed to the planet's dark energies, these Jedi husks create even more assassins and DARK JEDI, feeding the planet's hunger.

 

The Chronicles currently have a home here; Click Me

[deathdisco]

What happened to Revan's mind wasn't changed. His brain got ****ed up when Malak betrayed him (having a landmine go off under your feet can do that to ya). If Kreia does indeed say that the Jedi Council mind-wiped Revan (I don't recall when or where she ever says this in the game. As far as I know, she hardly at all talks about what happens to him between his capture and Malak's Death), then the obvious explanation is that either she's making an assumption (since she sure as hell wasn't present for any of those events) or ignoring the facts because she's a Revan fangirl. Regardless of whether Kreia believes she's telling the truth about this matter (again, assuming that she says anything about it at all), the fact of the matter is that it's the word of Kreia, who was not there, against the word of Bastila and the other Jedi, who were there.

 

It all depends how damaged his mind was. Bastila says it was too damaged to fully restore his memories but we know that eventually he does regain them.

Was it programed to fill in what was missing(blank slate) or was it reprogramed to suppress the "Darth Revan" persona?

 

Bastila was instrumental in the last great Republic riposte against Darth Malak and Darth Revan, splitting the pair and conquering one of the Sith Lords. The Jedi Council had learned sketchy details about the Sith plot involving the Star Forge, but needed more information in order to stop it. They crafted a devious and controversial plan into which Bastila Shan figured prominently.

 

The captive Revan underwent a memory wipe, and was given a new identity. This new persona was paired with Bastila Shan in the search for Darth Malak and the Star Forge. Bastila kept a wary eye on Revan, always alert at signs of the dark side. Such an awareness opened her to the dark side more than she intended. The quest for the Star Forge, which spanned worlds, kept Revan and Bastila working side-by-side, and thrust Bastila into difficult and challenging roles as a Jedi.

Emphasis mine.

Source.