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XWA One Year Thread Part VII: Shadows of the Forum


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It's all hot air. Nothing will ever come of it.

 

Basically, it's a group of sore losers publicly expressing outrage that they lost, and trying to be on record as saying: "Well... He's not MY President!!!"

 

Interesting show of Patriotism and love of the Constitution, this. America: Love it and leave it?

 

No, I disagree. If anything, it's expressing a desire for the principles that resulted in the Constitution being the way it is - those of a federal government with extremely limited, specifically enumerated powers. The powers that the federal government has taken to itself, the rights of citizens that have been violated, and the ludicrous debt that has been accumulated since that time is exactly what the founding fathers were trying to avoid. The Constitution came about because we needed a federal government that could accomplish certain things, but there was a lot of opposition to it, and in some states it barely passed. It wouldn't have passed at all without the amendments made to it that limited the power of the federal government even further. This isn't people being sore losers or racists - it's people expressing frustration with the direction of the country.

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There are better and far more constructive ways of voicing dissent than talk of destroying the country. "I love the United States Of America so much I'd MUCH rather completely destroy it and everything it stands for than rationally try to fix the things I see as problems!"

 

Basically, that's like committing bodily dismemberment on someone you love because they have a psychological problem.

 

It doesn't solve any problems... and only would serve to create a whole host of new, unforeseen ones.

 

The missing element is rationality. There hasn't been a rational discussion and national debate about the direction the country really should be heading in since I have conscious memory. Just a lot of shouting and slander being thrown around, with each sides most extreme elements digging in and entrenching their positions and little deeper. And refusing ANY and ALL compromise that might make each side walk away a bit humbled.

 

There are civil methods to go about solving issues with the government. It might take a lot of work, and many hours of personal involvement... more than just casting your vote every 4 years, then writing bitchy Facebook statuses and online petitions when the election doesn't go exactly your way.

 

As I wrote to many of my more conservative FB contacts this week: "If you really don't like the results of the election and the direction that the country is going in... what exactly are YOU personally doing to change it?"

 

There's obviously an almost equal amount of people who don't agree with the vision of future America as presented by the Republican party this time around... but dismantling the union to express your dislike with the election results doesn't make any sense.

 

If you want to change the country, you need to fix the obviously broken system. And you can't rely on anyone else to do it. Get started on some grassroots movement.

 

Otherwise, if you just tune back in to FOX and Rush and Drudge, and do nothing but whine online and wait for the next election to sweep your guys back into power... then it's all just sour grapes to me.

 

I'm not saying you, personally, are guilty of that Keyan... but I've been frustrated with the online kvetching I've been exposed to this time around. As far as I'm concerned, I thought the Romney Republican party did a TERRIBLE job of convincing anyone who wasn't already a partisan to vote that way, and I wasn't at all surprised the way the country went.

 

The President has been vilified by the right for well over 4 years now... and the same folks who in one breath expound on crazy crackpot manifestos about his origins that are obviously untrue loony conspiracy theories, then turn around and want the rest of us to believe them and take then seriously when they tell us how he is and will continue wrecking the country. It really shouldn't be that surprising to anyone that a lot of people rejected that line.

 

I personally thought it was a no-brainer to anyone who didn't want to see a potentially schizophrenic maybe moderate/ maybe EXTREME-right-winger president in office, and a controlling party that seemed to want to set back the social-issue clock to the turn of the 19th century.

 

But maybe that's just me... and another 50+% of the population of the country.

 

Of course: There was no exit poll to show how many votes for Obama were actually cast AGAINST Romney/ Ryan. I bet a lot of the swing-state voters weren't directly supporting Obama, as much as they were rejecting the other choice.

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There are better and far more constructive ways of voicing dissent than talk of destroying the country. "I love the United States Of America so much I'd MUCH rather completely destroy it and everything it stands for than rationally try to fix the things I see as problems!"

 

Basically, that's like committing bodily dismemberment on someone you love because they have a psychological problem.

 

It doesn't solve any problems... and only would serve to create a whole host of new, unforeseen ones.

 

I wouldn't be so quick to say it wouldn't solve problems. It would certainly solve one very large problem. Would it create worse problems? Perhaps. Perhaps not. And the answer may well vary from state to state. It would certainly only be prudent as a last ditch attempt to punch out before the missile hits you - but if the hit is inevitable, you're better off going for it than doing nothing. And clearly some people think the hit is now inevitable. But in any event, it shouldn't be some kind of federal patriotism that drives the decision. In the early days of the nation, people were more loyal, and identified more with, their states than the entire country. They were Virginians (or whatever) first, and Americans second. And that is very much in harmony with the original philosophy of the country as a group of united states. For now I take it more as an expression of frustration than a real desire to secede. But in 20 years...who knows?

 

The missing element is rationality. There hasn't been a rational discussion and national debate about the direction the country really should be heading in since I have conscious memory. Just a lot of shouting and slander being thrown around, with each sides most extreme elements digging in and entrenching their positions and little deeper. And refusing ANY and ALL compromise that might make each side walk away a bit humbled.

 

I think there's been plenty of rational discussion. Unfortunately, when the heart of the disagreement is not how to get things done, but what should be done at all because the two sides have diametrically opposed ideologies, there isn't going to be much possibility for compromise. We are extremely polarized as a nation now, and I don't think that's going to change any time soon.

 

There are civil methods to go about solving issues with the government. It might take a lot of work, and many hours of personal involvement... more than just casting your vote every 4 years, then writing bitchy Facebook statuses and online petitions when the election doesn't go exactly your way.

 

Sometimes civil methods are not sufficient to solve the problems with the government. But I don't begrudge anyone a little venting. Isn't that kind of what Facebook is for?

 

As I wrote to many of my more conservative FB contacts this week: "If you really don't like the results of the election and the direction that the country is going in... what exactly are YOU personally doing to change it?"

 

Aside from voting and trying to convince people to come around to their way of thinking, what else can they do? They could actually run for office, but that's a full career for any position that could effect national issues like this. Yeah, they could get heavily involved in some kind of grassroots thing, but it takes all the time a lot of people have just to take care of their families.

 

As far as I'm concerned, I thought the Romney Republican party did a TERRIBLE job of convincing anyone who wasn't already a partisan to vote that way, and I wasn't at all surprised the way the country went.

 

Really? I'm amazed Romney had to do anything other than be not-Obama to win. This country is in demonstrably worse shape than it was four years ago, and I'm amazed that anyone's default position would be to sign up for another four years of it. Mitt Romney was a pretty uninspiring candidate, but unless you were afraid his Mormonism would have a profoundly negative effect on the country (unlikely), there really wasn't anything to vote against there. It would seem like it might be a good idea give the guy who has proved he knows how to manage money a shot when the biggest issue right now is the economy. In fact, I know several people who voted for Obama last time who voted for Romney this time for just that reason. The only thing I can think of would be concern over needlessly starting a war with Iran, which Romney seemed more likely to do than Obama, but on the other hand, Obama has needlessly interfered militarily in that part of the world too, so that's still a big question mark with him in charge.

 

The President has been vilified by the right for well over 4 years now... and the same folks who in one breath expound on crazy crackpot manifestos about his origins that are obviously untrue loony conspiracy theories, then turn around and want the rest of us to believe them and take then seriously when they tell us how he is and will continue wrecking the country. It really shouldn't be that surprising to anyone that a lot of people rejected that line.

 

The Romney campaign didn't touch any of that, though. In fact, they decided not to raise a number of legitimate issues about Obama and his ideologies. But I think this is what actually hurt them, because the thing about the swing states is not really that there are a bunch of people who could go either way. Swing states are not won by convincing people who aren't sure to vote your way. They are won by getting the people who are already convinced one way or the other to actually get out and vote. And there were a lot conservatives out there who simply didn't vote because Romney is not particularly conservative and they didn't see any real need to go out and choose between two non-conservative candidates. If the Republican strategy had been to go on the offensive and show why it was important that Obama not be reelected, they would have had a better shot, despite Romney's weakness as a candidate. What you generally saw in this election was conservative Republicans winning their races and more liberal Republicans losing them. Romney was not going to win with conservatives, so the only hope was to make it about not electing Obama, which the Romney campaign failed to do. They might not have been able to pull it off, but I think it was their only chance.

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I wouldn't be so quick to say it wouldn't solve problems. It would certainly solve one very large problem. Would it create worse problems? Perhaps. Perhaps not. And the answer may well vary from state to state. It would certainly only be prudent as a last ditch attempt to punch out before the missile hits you - but if the hit is inevitable, you're better off going for it than doing nothing. And clearly some people think the hit is now inevitable. But in any event, it shouldn't be some kind of federal patriotism that drives the decision. In the early days of the nation, people were more loyal, and identified more with, their states than the entire country. They were Virginians (or whatever) first, and Americans second. And that is very much in harmony with the original philosophy of the country as a group of united states. For now I take it more as an expression of frustration than a real desire to secede. But in 20 years...who knows?
I think it would be amazingly reckless and destructive towards our common interests... but if everyone from a state (or states) insists on leaving the union, then I guess I probably wouldn't stand in their way. It might make the concept of National Security kind of difficult... since there wouldn't be a Nation to secure... Dismantle the Armed Forces and let each state form it's own militia?

I think there's been plenty of rational discussion. Unfortunately, when the heart of the disagreement is not how to get things done, but what should be done at all because the two sides have diametrically opposed ideologies, there isn't going to be much possibility for compromise. We are extremely polarized as a nation now, and I don't think that's going to change any time soon.
The refusal by extremists and ideologues on both sides to find common ground, suck it up, and do what's best for the majority of people in the country is the sole reason for the gridlock and polarization.

 

I'd personally be willing to see a bit of chopping when it came to Government spending if the other side was willing to compromise a bit on social issues.

 

And why does it ONLY have to be "Drown the government in a bathtub?" Could we try to agree that drowning the government in a swimming pool or watering hole might be a decent compromise for scaling back? Making cuts, but not totally eliminating everything that people might want.

 

I'm realistic enough to know that a one party-state (from either side) is a dangerous thing. Both sides need to keep the other in check. One side might have a bit more power than the other from time-to-time... but an unchecked Liberal one party state is just as bad as an unchecked Conservative one party state. Both will eventually lead down the road to oppression and totalitarianism.

Sometimes civil methods are not sufficient to solve the problems with the government. But I don't begrudge anyone a little venting. Isn't that kind of what Facebook is for?

Yes... but a few folks have reacted in what I find to be an alarming manner. Since the election, several people have been posting things that might make Ted Nugent or Donald Trump say "Whoa dude! Calm down! That's a bit too far! It's not really that bad..."

Aside from voting and trying to convince people to come around to their way of thinking, what else can they do? They could actually run for office, but that's a full career for any position that could effect national issues like this. Yeah, they could get heavily involved in some kind of grassroots thing, but it takes all the time a lot of people have just to take care of their families.

Get involved at some level with your representatives. Write. Call. Meet in person. Even if you didn't personally vote for them, they still work for you.

Go to every public "Town-Hall" meeting you can find time to. Get active in the process and the community. It may be only once a month, or a couple of times a year... but that's still more than most people do. And it's not just "sitting around for 4-more years grumbling to myself..."

Really? I'm amazed Romney had to do anything other than be not-Obama to win. This country is in demonstrably worse shape than it was four years ago, and I'm amazed that anyone's default position would be to sign up for another four years of it. Mitt Romney was a pretty uninspiring candidate, but unless you were afraid his Mormonism would have a profoundly negative effect on the country (unlikely), there really wasn't anything to vote against there. It would seem like it might be a good idea give the guy who has proved he knows how to manage money a shot when the biggest issue right now is the economy. In fact, I know several people who voted for Obama last time who voted for Romney this time for just that reason. The only thing I can think of would be concern over needlessly starting a war with Iran, which Romney seemed more likely to do than Obama, but on the other hand, Obama has needlessly interfered militarily in that part of the world too, so that's still a big question mark with him in charge.
He was also proven to be bending the facts on the Jeep thing, and a flip-flopper on many other issues. Let's face it: Mitt Romney was the Republican's "John Kerry" moment... and as such, was defeated for all the same weaknesses.

 

Of course, I thought the country was in MUCH worse shape after 4 years of W., and couldn't fathom how he could ever get re-elected... yet I had to accept that Kerry was the weaker candidate in the eyes of the majority.

 

When you have a winner-takes-all competition between 2 sides... one side has to lose. It doesn't mean you have to give up on hope or the country though... to me that's going too far.

 

"You lost today kid. But it doesn't mean you have to like it!"

The Romney campaign didn't touch any of that, though. In fact, they decided not to raise a number of legitimate issues about Obama and his ideologies. But I think this is what actually hurt them, because the thing about the swing states is not really that there are a bunch of people who could go either way. Swing states are not won by convincing people who aren't sure to vote your way. They are won by getting the people who are already convinced one way or the other to actually get out and vote. And there were a lot conservatives out there who simply didn't vote because Romney is not particularly conservative and they didn't see any real need to go out and choose between two non-conservative candidates. If the Republican strategy had been to go on the offensive and show why it was important that Obama not be reelected, they would have had a better shot, despite Romney's weakness as a candidate. What you generally saw in this election was conservative Republicans winning their races and more liberal Republicans losing them. Romney was not going to win with conservatives, so the only hope was to make it about not electing Obama, which the Romney campaign failed to do. They might not have been able to pull it off, but I think it was their only chance.
The campaign didn't have to bring those things up... but for much of the country, talk radio and other conservative pundits ARE the voice of the party. And as such, they were 'the party who cried "Kenyan!"' once too often... which made any serious discussions about records fall on many ears that had already tuned out that noise. After hearing for well over 5 years how Obama was basically "History's Greatest Monster!" then seeing those claims debunked, then actually viewing him in at the convention and in debate against the competition, I can see how some might start to doubt ALL the claims leveled at him by the froth-mouthed pundit class. Edited by edlib
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The GOP, and their pundit attack dogs spent the last four years trying to make Obama a one term president. And failed.

 

I think people want to see more construction then obstruction in our country.

 

and in other news, looks like my wife is getting me (and us) a Xbox 360 with connect. Probably going to spring for the Star wars LE version with 320GB drive

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zomg!

 

Kookee and SXW have assaulted me with text messages concerning of 'the game!'

 

*shrugs at self*

 

XD

 

--------------------

 

fun nite tonight, I thought that SXW might've had a bad day after my vet club meeting (when I was trying to leave and go home)

so, me and SXW had a bit of a night out...

 

 

with that being said: I've known SXW at or around 11 years now....

topping that is Crackles at about 12~13

 

Rogue for hire at about 15

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Saw my first Christmas yard light display lit up a couple of nights ago on the drive home from the train station. I don't know why, but it really annoyed me.

 

Seeing that prior to Thanksgiving just feels wrong. Like jumping the gun at a desperate attempt at getting the neighborhood light show competition bragging rights. "First!"

 

I really hope the folks that live there are nowhere near the douchebags I have made them out to be in my mind... for the sakes of all the neighbors.

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I think it would be amazingly reckless and destructive towards our common interests... but if everyone from a state (or states) insists on leaving the union, then I guess I probably wouldn't stand in their way.

 

Well, it's kind of a moot point now. Ever since the Civil War, it's been pretty clear that nobody is going anywhere. Unless people at the federal level believe that the secession of a particular state or states would be obviously and greatly advantageous for the rest of the country (highly unlikely), I don't think a peaceful secession would happen.

 

It might make the concept of National Security kind of difficult... since there wouldn't be a Nation to secure... Dismantle the Armed Forces and let each state form it's own militia?

 

Possibly, although that's a much less viable option now, in this age of high technology warfare. I imagine there would be treaties, and states would contribute to a mutual defense force. Of course, there would be the problem of how to decide when and how to use that force.

 

The refusal by extremists and ideologues on both sides to find common ground, suck it up, and do what's best for the majority of people in the country is the sole reason for the gridlock and polarization.

 

I think the problem is more fundamental than that. A lot of people do not vote for what is best for the majority of the people or what is best for the country in general. They vote for what is best for themselves. And the politicians try to give it to them because those votes are what keeps them in power. That is, unfortunately, a fundamental flaw of our system.

 

And why does it ONLY have to be "Drown the government in a bathtub?" Could we try to agree that drowning the government in a swimming pool or watering hole might be a decent compromise for scaling back? Making cuts, but not totally eliminating everything that people might want.

 

Because the amount of money we spend is so far beyond what we take in that it's ridiculous. We simply have to spend less money, by a lot, and that means massive cuts. And really, this is something neither side wants to deal with. Everyone talks about getting this under control, but nobody has a plan that actually gets it done.

 

Get involved at some level with your representatives. Write. Call. Meet in person. Even if you didn't personally vote for them, they still work for you. Go to every public "Town-Hall" meeting you can find time to. Get active in the process and the community. It may be only once a month, or a couple of times a year... but that's still more than most people do.

 

That can be a very effective way to participate in your local government, for sure, but that's not going to count for much of anything on the national stage. When it comes to the overall direction of the country, I don't think there's much any of us can individually do to change anything, without making it the major focus of our lives.

 

Of course, I thought the country was in MUCH worse shape after 4 years of W., and couldn't fathom how he could ever get re-elected... yet I had to accept that Kerry was the weaker candidate in the eyes of the majority.

 

Well, he was riding some support from 9/11 for one thing. But for all the things he was doing wrong, changing parties in the presidency wouldn't have reversed that course, and I think people pretty much knew that. It still blows my mind that people continue to blame the state of this country on Bush and heap praise on Obama, even though Obama is pursuing the exact failing policies that Bush used to dig us farther into this hole.

 

When you have a winner-takes-all competition between 2 sides... one side has to lose. It doesn't mean you have to give up on hope or the country though... to me that's going too far.

 

A lot of people saw this election as our last chance to put on the brakes. To be realistic, electing Romney probably wouldn't have put on the brakes much, but at least it would have been a sign that people were not happy with the direction in which the country was heading. I think the strong reactions to the Obama victory are not really born out of losing one election, or out of dislike for one particular politician, but out of the realization that a lot of people are just fine with the direction of the country. And one term of one president is not going to bring the country to ruin, but the idea that this is what a lot of people want and are going to continue to want after Obama is gone is far more significant.

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Tired. It's been a long weekend at work so far. Two 12+ hour days back-to-back... at the end of an already busy week.

 

I have tomorrow off. Here's hoping I actually have the energy and motivation to actually do something with it.

 

It doesn't seem very likely at this point.

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Very cool, Wildstar!

 

I read my schedule wrong today... and showed up to work way too early.

 

And found out that last night one of the crew guys left a box of brand new microphone parts ($900 worth...) next to the where we leave the trash... and now it's gone. Great.

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epic night last night. ready for round 2.

 

asked one of my former coworkers out, may or may not happen if it does, going out either friday or saturday...lol

 

having contact lenses makes a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuge difference for me...nice being able to see clearly without peripheral vision obstructing glasses.

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It should also be noted that my FanForce group, the Mass. Imperial Syndicate (our logo is on the t-shirt I was wearing) raised well over $1,500 over Super Megafest weekend for Autism Speaks; this included a very generous $1,000 check given to us by an anonymous attendee. :joy:

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decided to stay home tonight...i don't want a dui, not that i would get into an accident, it's the *******s on the road that refuse to drive the speed limit or under or slinky their cars in and out of traffic, plus i just had a feeling that if i were to go out i would not have as good a time as i wanted to. i miss being at training, looking forward to next week. doesnt look like former coworker is wanting to hang out with me, no text messages or anything. her loss, not mine. i would be the one driving 2 hours to go visit anyways...all based on a dream i had which started that whole feeling like we could possibly have something. not totally counting it out, but based on some things...yeah.

 

cant wait to get the **** out of this boring place. alcohol isnt really fun anymore.

 

:(

 

plus my friends all seem so ****in shallow and weird sometimes. wtf is happening to me.

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