Return to Monkey Island

[OzzieMonkey]

5 minutes ago, Jake said:

I would not overthink it, and play them in the order they were made!

 

This color is a little dark but is otherwise exactly what I wanted the Tales of MI logo to look like, but LucasArts wouldn’t let us at the time, because it was the “old school” logo and didn’t reflect the current state of the brand. I was pretty sad that as a result it wasn’t allowed to match the rest of the series (other than the special editions). Makes me happy to see this again. 

Yeah I struggled a little with the gradient overlay settings in Photoshop. A lot of my experience with the software is self-taught and just trying things to see what works. I wasn't quite able to get it lighter than this, though I'm sure there's a way for more savvy users to work it out. I'm glad you liked it otherwise!

[Jake]

It looks good!

[OzzieMonkey]

I gave it another crack and made it a little lighter and closer to the original. Not perfect, but pretty close

[Vainamoinen]

3 hours ago, Toymafia88 said:

The lack of clarity on what Return is makes it hard to plan a marathon...

 

I'm with Jake here. Every Monkey Island part built on the previous, just like every Star Wars part, regardless of chronology. The order in which they were made seems right for a marathon. You could of course play them as a countdown to ReMI in ToMI - EMI - CMI - LCR - TSoMI order. Think about it – that would save those games the memories to which you want freshest for last, like a slow trip in to the past!

 

As to what ReMI is or isn't, chronologically, I don't think it really matters that much. Im fairly certain it has some overarching elements and only starts at the CotD. With Return to Monkey Island, Dave and Ron will undoubtedly try to carve a path for the series' ongoing existence. We might have another Monkey Island in a few years. That Monkey Island will be Monkey Island 7 and in retrospect, ReMI will by then have become "part 6" anyway. ♻️

 

For those whovians out there: In like everybody's head canon, David Tennant still is the 11th doctor regardless of them funking up the reincarnation timeline two doctors later, making him technically the 12th.

 

 

Edited May 21, 2022 by Vainamoinen

[ThunderPeel2001]

On 5/21/2022 at 6:52 AM, madmardi said:

As for the dialog between characters, Ron did admit that was something he should have thought about and included much earlier - my thoughts are that it was simply an oversight since doing full dialog trees wasn't something that was decided from the beginning. IMHO, Ron and Gary knew their characters so well having designed them and redesigned them countless times that they made the mistake of forgetting that the player doesn't know them as well as they do. I think Ron realized that it was a missed opportunity to develop the characters deeper... which is why he quickly patched it into the game.

That’s a pretty huge oversight to me if you look at what I wrote about what I believe to be most important in storytelling. (“Oh I guess we should give them personalities” shouldn’t be an afterthought.)

 

THIMBLEWEED PARK ENDING STUFF
 

As for the ending, I think “it’s all a dream” is a very unsatisfying way to finish a story. (It CAN be done, but It’s extremely rare to pull off successfully.) TP goes beyond that trope into having no resolution at all.  Just a, “oh the world is fake, there were no stakes, there was no story, there is no resolution to any of the threads, the end”.

 

It says nothing. It means nothing. It’s just an ending designed to be divisive. It was a very cynical and deliberate attempt to recreate the upset of MI2’s ending. But it didn’t even work as that, because I didn’t care about the world or the characters in the first place.
 

Basically it needed a brilliantly satisfying ending to MAKE me care… but it deliberately went the other way. It didn’t even provoke me enough to hate it. It just fell flat.

[Lagomorph01]

3 hours ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

THIMBLEWEED PARK ENDING STUFF
 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

As for the ending, I think “it’s all a dream” is a very unsatisfying way to finish a story. (It CAN be done, but It’s extremely rare to pull off successfully.) TP goes beyond that trope into having no resolution at all.  Just a, “oh the world is fake, there were no stakes, there was no story, there is no resolution to any of the threads, the end”.

 

 

It says nothing. It means nothing. It’s just an ending designed to be divisive. It was a very cynical and deliberate attempt to recreate the upset of MI2’s ending. But it didn’t even work as that, because I didn’t care about the world or the characters in the first place.
 

Basically it needed a brilliantly satisfying ending to MAKE me care… but it deliberately went the other way. It didn’t even provoke me enough to hate it. It just fell flat.

 

 

I think if you look at it as an “it was all a dream ending”, you’re bound to be dissapointed. For me, it didn’t feel that way, and was a very satisfying an heart felt conclusion to a well build mystery. I also got to care for the characters, especially Dolores, her father and Ransom, but maybe it just didn’t hit the same strings for you.

[ThunderPeel2001]

4 hours ago, Lagomorph01 said:

 

I think if you look at it as an “it was all a dream ending”, you’re bound to be dissapointed. For me,

THIMBLEWEED PARK ENDING SPOILERS

 

 

I think it’s different to a “it’s all just a dream”. As I said, I think it was a deliberate attempt at making a divisive ending (because that’s what Ron said he thinks makes a “good” ending: Half the people liking it, half the people hating it. But I didn’t even care enough to hate it. I just found it empty and unsatisfying.)

Delores was definitely the most interesting character, but like everyone, her story went nowhere. 
 
To me a story is this: A character wants something… will or won’t they get it.
 
I can’t think of a single story that doesn’t fit this mould. Even TP does, except the ending was just: “ah, they all don’t care anymore because the world is fake”. You didn’t even see them really deal with the news that it was all fake (which cold have been interesting). There was nothing to even relate to. I felt like it was just a, “I bet this will really divide the audience!” ending. 
 

It felt like a conscious attempt to recreate the “magic” of MI2’s ending. (Maybe I’m wrong, of course, but that’s how it felt to me — especially after watching Ron’s PAX talk about endings.)
 

Also I don’t agree with Ron that happy endings are “easy”. Because you still have to make the audience CARE about that ending. In fact making the audience care about the characters (and want to know what happens next to them) is the hard part if you ask me. 
 

I know I sound really grumpy  One day I’ll try again and see if it grows on me.

 

Edited May 22, 2022 by Thrik

[Lagomorph01]

20 minutes ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

THIMBLEWEED PARK ENDING SPOILERS

 

  Hide contents

I think it’s different to a “it’s all just a dream”. As I said, I think it was a deliberate attempt at making a divisive ending (because that’s what Ron said he thinks makes a “good” ending: Half the people liking it, half the people hating it. But I didn’t even care enough to hate it. I just found it empty and unsatisfying.)

Delores was definitely the most interesting character, but like everyone, her story went nowhere. 
 
To me a story is this: A character wants something… will or won’t they get it.
 
I can’t think of a single story that doesn’t fit this mould. Even TP does, except the ending was just: “ah, they all don’t care anymore because the world is fake”. You didn’t even see them really deal with the news that it was all fake (which cold have been interesting). There was nothing to even relate to. I felt like it was just a, “I bet this will really divide the audience!” ending. 
 

It felt like a conscious attempt to recreate the “magic” of MI2’s ending. (Maybe I’m wrong, of course, but that’s how it felt to me — especially after watching Ron’s PAX talk about endings.)
 

Also I don’t agree with Ron that happy endings are “easy”. Because you still have to make the audience CARE about that ending. In fact making the audience care about the characters (and want to know what happens next to them) is the hard part if you ask me. 
 

I know I sound really grumpy  One day I’ll try again and see if it grows on me.

 

First things first: please put my quoted comment in spoiler tags, I wouldn’t want people who haven’t played the ending to read that.

 

Back on the off topic:

I don’t think it was a deliberate move in trying to top the Monkey Island 2 ending or to cause a polarisation in opinions on it. Ron does like to play games with his audience (like with the RMI reveal), but I doubt he’d end a game based on that alone.

Anyway, it’s nice to hear a different opinion on it. Some things resonate differently with different people I guess. With me it even changes with the way I go into a product. My opinions have been known to change based on second viewings/playthroughs.

 

Back on the on topic: I’m curious to what Ron will come

up with this time! I doubt RMI will end in any way that we expect!

 

On 5/21/2022 at 5:53 PM, Vainamoinen said:

As to what ReMI is or isn't, chronologically, I don't think it really matters that much. Im fairly certain it has some overarching elements and only starts at the CotD. With Return to Monkey Island, Dave and Ron will undoubtedly try to carve a path for the series' ongoing existence. We might have another Monkey Island in a few years. That Monkey Island will be Monkey Island 7 and in retrospect, ReMI will by then have become "part 6" anyway. ♻️

This will be very likely! And maybe in 10 years we’ll be talking about how the MI7 writers came up with a huge monologue by LeChuck where they try to overexplain the ending Ron set them up with. 😉

[Thrik]

I read it. I haven’t played the game yet. I added the spoiler tags. 🥲

[ThunderPeel2001]

3 hours ago, Lagomorph01 said:

I don’t think it was a deliberate move in trying to top the Monkey Island 2 ending or to cause a polarisation in opinions on it. Ron does like to play games with his audience (like with the RMI reveal), but I doubt he’d end a game based on that alone.

 

I know I've quoted this before, but here's Ron talking in 2013. He started work on Thimbleweed Park in 2014...

 

Quote

For me, it’s probably not true for everyone, but for me something is perfect not when everybody loves it, but when half the people love it and half the people hate it.
 

I’m not saying that creating something everyone loves is easy but in some ways it really is the easy way out. If you want to create something everybody likes, take a picture of a cute puppy and a kitten.
 

Everybody loves puppies but what have you really told the world? You’ve told the world that puppies are cute. How have you challenged your audience, what part of their imagination have you fired up? What part of their soul have you stirred and engaged?
 

Now, for me such a thing is the ending to Monkey Island 2.
 

That ending really polarized people. Half the people love that ending and half the people just hated that ending and really nothing can make me happier.

...
 

To this day not a week goes by that I do not get one or two hate and profanity-filled emails from people over that ending.
 

I also get emails from people that tell me how much they loved that ending. And that ending really polarized people and that it means the ending meant something. I could have done it anywhere Guybrush and Elaine live happily ever after but no one will be talking about that ending 20 years later, no one would be sending me ranty emails about how much they loved how happy Guybrush and Elaine were.
 

Ranty emails really start my day in a lot of ways they are, they are my morning coffee.
 

Now the thing is I didn’t really have an ending from MI2 for a long time, we were almost done with the game and I still had no ending. It’s not like I didn’t have a bad ending that I hope I make better or a mediocre ending. I just had no ending and I was starting to panic. Now panic can be an amazing motivator. Panic and fear often the lubrication of the creative engine.
 

So then one morning I was laying in bed and I was just staring at the ceiling and the ending to Monkey Island 2 to just hit me. Not with all the details like the Star Wars parody, but the basic gist of it, and it just felt absolutely perfect; it was odd and it was strange and I knew a lot of people would just hate it.
 

But I also knew a lot of people would love it, and it just felt right, it was kind of the ending that the game was waiting for. So next morning I got got back to the office and I sat down with Tim and Dave and Steve Purcell and we worked through all the details. I don’t remember who came up with the Return of the Jedi parody but it was perfect and it just fit.
 

When you were creating something, don’t be afraid to enrage your audience, don’t be afraid to make them hate you, don’t be afraid to challenge them and make them feel uncomfortable, it means you’re creating something that has meaning.
 

Now, you don’t want to do this all the time. You want to do it just enough to keep everybody thinking and unsuspecting. Art should challenge us. Art should make us think and it should make us examine who we are. Art is an object riddled with smart with sharp edges that can cut you, it’s like you can pound all those edges away and make it smooth and make it safe but we are left with is just the shapeless blob, it’s safe and it’s smooth but it’s uninteresting.
 

You shouldn’t enrage your audience all the time just to enrage them, you need to enrage them for a reason. I love cute pictures of puppies just as much as everyone else but I also like to read or watch or play things the make me stop and think “what the fuck was that?”. It’s like I never want to watch or play that again, but I can’t stop thinking about it.

 

Edited May 22, 2022 by ThunderPeel2001

[KestrelPi]

2 minutes ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

 

I know I've quoted this before, but here's Ron talking in 2013. He started work on Thimbleweed Park in 2014...

 

 

 

I haven't read this before, but I'm not sure how much I like it. I agree in principle that polarising media can be the most stimulating and there's maybe a loose rule of thumb that if you make something some love and some hate you might be doing something creatively daring. But here it almost sounds like the GOAL is to be polarising, rather than... being polarising as a possible side effect of being creatively daring. I'm not sure I love the idea of rubbing hands in glee at the idea that you'll irritate a large portion of the audience, that feels a bit like the tail wagging the dog.

[ThunderPeel2001]

Just now, KestrelPi said:

I haven't read this before, but I'm not sure how much I like it. I agree in principle that polarising media can be the most stimulating and there's maybe a loose rule of thumb that if you make something some love and some hate you might be doing something creatively daring. But here it almost sounds like the GOAL is to be polarising, rather than... being polarising as a possible side effect of being creatively daring. I'm not sure I love the idea of rubbing hands in glee at the idea that you'll irritate a large portion of the audience, that feels a bit like the tail wagging the dog.

 

Yes! You've summed up my problem with this better than I've been able to. Thanks

[ThunderPeel2001]

On 5/21/2022 at 1:16 PM, Toymafia88 said:

Kinda like watching star wars is better out of order with episodes 4, 5, 6, 1, 2 & 3

 

 

Best order: 4 5 1 2 3 6

[roots]

20 minutes ago, KestrelPi said:

 

I haven't read this before, but I'm not sure how much I like it. I agree in principle that polarising media can be the most stimulating and there's maybe a loose rule of thumb that if you make something some love and some hate you might be doing something creatively daring. But here it almost sounds like the GOAL is to be polarising, rather than... being polarising as a possible side effect of being creatively daring. I'm not sure I love the idea of rubbing hands in glee at the idea that you'll irritate a large portion of the audience, that feels a bit like the tail wagging the dog.

 

I always think of the phrase "Jack of all Trades, Master of None". Games that seek to be as broadly appealing as possible generally aren't as engaging to their audiences compared to more "specialised" titles focused more on a specific niche/demographic.

 

But that concept aside, it really does seem a tad off. Frankly it reads to me like a insincere cope constructed to deal with the fallout. It's one thing to not concern oneself with appealing to everyone, but to try and intentionally irritate people seems pointless and counter-productive.

[OzzieMonkey]

It's interesting to hear people's take on what Ron said about endings, because I came to a different conclusion.

 

My interpretation is not so much that you have to make something polarizing, but that if you have an idea that is wildly different, the potential for fracture in audience response shouldn't sway your decision to commit to that idea. I think what Ron said sends a message of honouring your own voice above trying to please everyone by making something generic and safe, not that you should go out of your way to make something terrible or controversial for the sake of it.

[KestrelPi]

I think to give it a kinder read, though this part:

 

Quote

You shouldn’t enrage your audience all the time just to enrage them, you need to enrage them for a reason.

 

I think he's trying to say go for the ideas that both FEEL right, and have a purpose, but also are likely to produce this effect. That's what I want to take away from this.

 

Because I really think the best creators aren't thinking 'ah, how can I piss people off next' but rather they have, over time, developed intuitions about where to take the work that pushes it in interesting directions - which sometimes results in making controversial choices.

 

Even so though, I think the best thing to do is not try to guess at how people will respond to the choices made. I don't think it's very healthy to use your imagined audience's response as a sort of barometer for how good the idea is. That to me feels as off as trying to be crowd pleasing or deliberately contrarian.

 

It makes one very curious about where this next Monkey Island will take us, since he's already talked about how he thinks it'll piss some people off, but I guess there's just no way of telling until we see it for ourselves.

[OzzieMonkey]

40 minutes ago, KestrelPi said:

It makes one very curious about where this next Monkey Island will take us, since he's already talked about how he thinks it'll piss some people off, but I guess there's just no way of telling until we see it for ourselves.

Considering that statement was in the context of being asked whether or not he would reveal the Secret, I imagine that is primarily where he is predicting division among fans. People have spent 30 years, 3 DECADES imagining what that secret could be, of course it's going to ruffle some feathers when/if it's ultimately revealed. I don't really have any expectations myself as to what it actually is (mainly because I've doubted for a while that there even is one), I just hope to be surprised and that whatever it is, it actually means something. I think Ron has said something to that effect before anyhow, that the Secret on its own is meaningless without tying it into the narrative and saying something thematically, which is why he's never given in and just written a blog post revealing it (or, like I said, there IS no secret). 

Edited May 23, 2022 by OzzieMonkey

[Lagomorph01]

7 hours ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

 

I know I've quoted this before, but here's Ron talking in 2013. He started work on Thimbleweed Park in 2014...

 

 

I don’t read it as such. When he’s saying “don’t be afraid to enrage your audience”, I think what he means is, don’t let expectations of others cloud the idea you have. In a time in which he has to close down the comments to his blog because of other peoples expectations, this rules more true than ever.

I agree with the rest he says about art having to be challenging.

Even after this quote I still don’t believe the TP ending is made just to polarize or upset people. On the other hand I loved it from

the first time I played it, so it just clicks for me.

[Lagomorph01]

11 hours ago, Thrik said:

I read it. I haven’t played the game yet. I added the spoiler tags. 🥲

Thanks for doing so. And I’m sorry this happened.

@KestrelPi, buy this guy a coffee! He just caught a bullet for you. 😉

[LUAbar]

Sorry but I have no doubts at this point, Monkey Island 3a never existed and Ron’s been lying to us all along. Let us compare some of his statements through the years.

 

Yesterday, Twitter

(Does #ReturnToMonkeyIsland go approximately in the same direction of the story you had in mind back in the 90s or it ended up going very far from  that?)

There was no story or design for MI3 back in 1992 so RtMI can't go in that direction.  There was no "direction".  RtMI is all new and better then I would have done in 1992.

 

2017, Official Thimbleweed Park Forums https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/ron-gilbert-about-art-and-bad-endings/1686/67

(I don’t believe the rumour(?) that Monkey Island was planned as a trilogy …)

Sorry to disappoint you, but before MI 1 production ended, I had planned it as a trilogy. Don’t mistake “I didn’t have an ending” with not knowing what the theme of the ending should be and where the overall story needed to go. It’s how it works. Some people will tell you you have to have the ending before you begin, these people are just wrong and aren’t people who create (interesting) stuff. Part of the process of writing is understanding your story. By the time you finish, you realize it’s not the story you started with.

If you want to think that I had the whole MI trilogy in my head from day one, you will be disappointed. I knew large story beats, but that’s it and that’s all I would expect most story tellers to have. Ideas are guides, they are not a hard map to follow. It’s a process called creating. Good idea really come out fully formed.

 

2007, The World of Monkey Island https://web.archive.org/web/20080116135428/http://www.worldofmi.com/features/interview/gilbert.php

(Is the idea for Monkey Island 3 just in your head or do you have the script lying in a drawer somewhere?)

It's mostly in my head, but I did write out the basic story line, which I've probably lost by now. But it's still in my head.

Edited May 23, 2022 by LUAbar

[Lagomorph01]

1 hour ago, LUAbar said:

Sorry but I have no doubts at this point, Monkey Island 3a never existed and Ron’s been lying to us all along.

Half of this statement is definitely true, Monkey Island 3a never existed.

Edited May 23, 2022 by Lagomorph01

[KestrelPi]

It's basically as I've been saying, the real answer is probably complicated and half lost to time.

 

Do I think they had a detailed idea of what MI3 was going to be? No, and I don't think they've ever really claimed that.

Do I think they had multiple ideas? Yes, they've said as much.

Do I think Ron probably thought about the story more than "guybrush goes to hell and stan is there?" Yes. I mean, *I've* thought about it more than that, and it's never even been my job to make it, so obviously he had lots of thoughts about where to possibly take it, both thematically and in terms of plot. It would have been impossible not to.

Do I think Ron remembers all the ideas he had for MI3 in 1992 and who he might have talked about them with and in how much detail and what order? No. I don't believe most people are capable of recalling a brief period of their life 30 years ago with that much clarity.

 

And ultimately, it doesn't matter.

 

It's not lying to say that he never had a direction for MI3. It's not lying to say he had a basic storyline. These things are compatible because as he's consistently said, the initial thoughts you have don't amount to a story or a design or a direction, they're just a starting point and during the process of creation things become formed.

 

It's also natural for him to want to downplay the importance of those early ideas because they have become irrelevant in the face of what he's decided to make now. Why would he want to say 'yeah we had all these cool ideas for where to take it' if he knew that if he ever got to make a new MI he wouldn't be using them? The only Monkey Island game that actually matters, ultimately, is the one we're getting.

[OzzieMonkey]

8 minutes ago, KestrelPi said:

It's basically as I've been saying, the real answer is probably complicated and half lost to time.

 

Do I think they had a detailed idea of what MI3 was going to be? No, and I don't think they've ever really claimed that.

Do I think they had multiple ideas? Yes, they've said as much.

Do I think Ron probably thought about the story more than "guybrush goes to hell and stan is there?" Yes. I mean, *I've* thought about it more than that, and it's never even been my job to make it, so obviously he had lots of thoughts about where to possibly take it, both thematically and in terms of plot. It would have been impossible not to.

Do I think Ron remembers all the ideas he had for MI3 in 1992 and who he might have talked about them with and in how much detail and what order? No. I don't believe most people are capable of recalling a brief period of their life 30 years ago with that much clarity.

 

And ultimately, it doesn't matter.

 

It's not lying to say that he never had a direction for MI3. It's not lying to say he had a basic storyline. These things are compatible because as he's consistently said, the initial thoughts you have don't amount to a story or a design or a direction, they're just a starting point and during the process of creation things become formed.

 

It's also natural for him to want to downplay the importance of those early ideas because they have become irrelevant in the face of what he's decided to make now. Why would he want to say 'yeah we had all these cool ideas for where to take it' if he knew that if he ever got to make a new MI he wouldn't be using them? The only Monkey Island game that actually matters, ultimately, is the one we're getting.

Yeah, I think people will get themselves twisted into knots trying to reconcile everything Ron's said in the past. I think the tossing of Murray into water mid-sentence in the trailer was a very pointed statement about more than just what he said about owning the rights, it was everything he's said up until this point. It was Ron's way of saying "yes, I know what I said, I've said a lot of things, forget about it." That's what it communicated to me, at least. 

 

Gahhh, I just want more content, gimme!  

[ThunderPeel2001]

3 hours ago, LUAbar said:

Sorry but I have no doubts at this point, Monkey Island 3a never existed and Ron’s been lying to us all along. Let us compare some of his statements through the years.

 

Yesterday, Twitter

(Does #ReturnToMonkeyIsland go approximately in the same direction of the story you had in mind back in the 90s or it ended up going very far from  that?)

There was no story or design for MI3 back in 1992 so RtMI can't go in that direction.  There was no "direction".  RtMI is all new and better then I would have done in 1992.

 

2017, Official Thimbleweed Park Forums https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/ron-gilbert-about-art-and-bad-endings/1686/67

(I don’t believe the rumour(?) that Monkey Island was planned as a trilogy …)

Sorry to disappoint you, but before MI 1 production ended, I had planned it as a trilogy. Don’t mistake “I didn’t have an ending” with not knowing what the theme of the ending should be and where the overall story needed to go. It’s how it works. Some people will tell you you have to have the ending before you begin, these people are just wrong and aren’t people who create (interesting) stuff. Part of the process of writing is understanding your story. By the time you finish, you realize it’s not the story you started with.

If you want to think that I had the whole MI trilogy in my head from day one, you will be disappointed. I knew large story beats, but that’s it and that’s all I would expect most story tellers to have. Ideas are guides, they are not a hard map to follow. It’s a process called creating. Good idea really come out fully formed.

 

2007, The World of Monkey Island https://web.archive.org/web/20080116135428/http://www.worldofmi.com/features/interview/gilbert.php

(Is the idea for Monkey Island 3 just in your head or do you have the script lying in a drawer somewhere?)

It's mostly in my head, but I did write out the basic story line, which I've probably lost by now. But it's still in my head.

 

I don't really find any of these quotes to be contradictory. He summed it up perfectly in his most recent blog post: "The muse comes when the work starts". You don't start with a perfectly formed idea.

[Vainamoinen]

And another Murray sinks to the bottom of the ocean.