Spider AL Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 you could make the player get all neutral or essential force powers, then he could pick light/dark beyond that. sure it might take a little more work, but would pay off, IMO. Yer, yer, possibly true... JK1 was pretty well tailored for all force-configurations, after all. Couldn't be that hard. One point though, I think giving Lightsiders different powers to Darksiders is self-defeating to begin with. There'll never be a true balance between them unless they both have access to the same powers, and before anyone says anything, no, Jedi use the same powers as Sith in the canon as well, they just use those powers for different purposes. JO 1.02 came pretty close to a balance though... Sigh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryudom Posted February 11, 2003 Share Posted February 11, 2003 a couple of ideas (for singleplayer anyway) 1. Force powers could maybe progress with use. the more you use the force power (in porportion to others maybe?) the more powerfull it gets. 2. Kyle's path of dark or light would not depend on the powers he uses, but how he uses them and other actions. (ie killing civiliens, probably if you choke millions of troopers your a sith hehe, etc...) just spewing some random ideas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryudom Posted February 11, 2003 Share Posted February 11, 2003 also spider... imaging grip and aborb *shivers* or rage and aborb... or drain and protect... heh yeah i know there's lots of means against that, dunno why i brought it up heh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Shaft Posted February 11, 2003 Share Posted February 11, 2003 Some good ideas here. Although I am a promod player these days, I did at some point take pleasure in JO. I like using guns and sabers (sniper plus saber - sweet). Most unfortunately, I came to the game when 1.03 came out, and my first reaction was "what the..." It just didn't feel right. Even the original JK didn't have things that bad. Guns were powerful in JK, but so were sabers. If you didn't have what it took to get close, well, you were dead. Then again, that conc rifle with force destruct was pretty unbeatable . I'm ready for a change of atmosphere though. I'm talking restrictions on what weapons you carry. More force powers would be nice. Stop giving us the same list with a few amedments. I know it would be difficult to make more powers that wouldn't be ridiculous or useless, but come on, the developers have time, start brainstorming. Explosives and stuff. I'm all for it, I think it would be nice if we got rid of the "I walk around with all 10 weapons, fully loaded, at a break neck speed". I say give everyone all the explosives and stuff they want, but impose carrying limitations, and weight restrictions. Of course, once again this wouldn't fit the Dark Forces tradition, in which I carry enough stuff to arm 20 people. Personally, I would gladly welcome the disappearance of that one tradition. Kyle must never disappear. Ever. I'd like to see different characters, but Kyle stays. Saber combat should be made more difficult. I'm right there with you. JO combat was nice, and Promod's aim thing is nifty, but it isn't all that great. There's still that feeling of just random clashiness. It needs to be fast, it needs to fps style, but we should get a variety of stances and the methods of getting hits and blocking should have more depth. Some swings that go low, some swings that would be used if my opponent enjoyed leaping everywhere. Right now, we have a variety of saber swings, but they all go in the the frontal area, at about the mid section. Swinging low CAN be done, but the game doesn't really take that into account in terms of blocks. People that jump and leap around are generally safe becasue the swings are all designed to fight someone who likes to fight fair and stupid. Hacking gunners wouldn't be so hard if our saber swings weren't merely designed for saber clashes. If gunners were dangerous, but I had dynamic saber moves, I mean things that lunged me across the floor, let me do specialized techniques that attacked both the ground beneath me and the air above me, then we wouldn't have so many complaints (perhaps). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryudom Posted February 11, 2003 Share Posted February 11, 2003 right on, thats exactly what i was saying (about the saber anyway) i agree with the rest too heh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Shaft Posted February 11, 2003 Share Posted February 11, 2003 Well now that I think I'm on a roll, I think this is the key thing. I'm almost certain that the next Dark Force game will allow us to every weapon. I don't want force powers that give me special saber swings. Here's yet another list of what I think the next game should do: - Get creative with the guns yet again. I liked JK's guns, even though the conc rifle was the end all of weaponry. The rail detonator was cool. I like JO's rocket launcher, but I hate what they did to the repeater. - The reason so many people are opposed to powerful sabers that could own gunners is because no one wants to play a game where running around as fast as you can and simply clicking will win. Each game that we've been given has taken the lightsaber to a different level. JK introduced it, MotS gave us a saber throw. JO gave it a whole new function and style, but it's still so much like a clunky combat knife that it wasn't a l33t weapon. We've got these exhibition videos coming from Nutritious, from members of DSbr, and they're good, but the videos basically contain tons of people using guns to wipe out other people. The saber should become a more complicated entity. In terms of saber moves, I felt Raven spent too much time giving us a variety of the frontal moves. I can attack someone in front of me about 30 ways, but they all don't make much a difference. We need slashes in the next game that are designed to cut off feet, designed to destroy things leaping over top of you, designed to help you destroy things that are beneath you. Simply aiming up and down these days doesn't help; the slashes are too awkward for that. A blocking system that isn't done by pushing buttons persay, but requires that we do more than simply look at our opponent. Strikes should be almost always near fatal, blocking system requiring that we anticipate where the opponent is attacking (top, middle, bottom). Something where if i don't pratice with it, I get wiped out quickly. This way, even our pro gunners would not only have to be skilled in all weapons, but also skilled in saber combat. Everyone would have to be skilled in using all or at least most of the weapons to compete, pending the situations given. If there's anything I most want to see, I would like to see the next game allow people to 0wnz with a saber against all types of players. I'd like to see a video where someone who is good at the game can at times dodge fire, get in close, and then just unleash some nasty moves. The saber should be powerful. If the imperial flechette, which is an incredibly powerful gun in JO, can knock out opponents in one hit, well, I think the saber should do it too, pending the hit is clean and dead on. That means that blocking and swinging pattersn would have to become more in-depth. I don't like it when the lightsaber is a weapon that everyone and your six year old can spam away with. Some of us talk about movie atmosphere. I say that the only reason why we see jedi in the movies using sabers for a majority of the time was because they were *#*@ good with it! JO, unfortunately, does not provide a super complex saber system nor the appropriate damage, to allow things like that to happen. A lightsaber with high damage, like it is in Promod, will kill a gunner in one hit. However, the advantage isn't as significant as it sounds. The pure gunner, even without force powers, can consistently dominate promod games. I don't have a problem with that. It's just a testament that damage or no, the saber is not very complicated, and kinda spammy. There are people who play JO and use pretty much one gun. And they use it to amazing effectiveness. However, for some of the guns used, it takes a certain skill level. Make the saber a complicated weapon (in terms of a weapon used in an fps) and THEN we can put it up there as a powerful weapon. Something that would be useful in many situations only if you were a master at it. The learning curve should be high, not low. This way, the saber only, casual fans can be casual. The ctf, ffa players in competitive players can only be good with the saber with LOTS of practice. At least I think that's a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumor Posted February 11, 2003 Share Posted February 11, 2003 well i would make a ten page post but unnamed and shaft have summed up all of what i wanted to say. saber combat is way to easy. its sad. i have seen n00bs on their first fight dominate a seasoned player. its quite sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeTRiTiC-iQ Posted February 11, 2003 Share Posted February 11, 2003 The problem with making the saber combat more detailed, is that the more you rely on locational targeting, overhead slashes etc. The more you will be relying on everyone having pings of 20. Consider how fast players move in the game, your timing would have to be flawless to get an overhead strike as the target jumps over you, add lag to this and you see the problem. I agree the saber needs to be a more powerful weapon. What Spider_AL, myself and most other gunners object to is the common argument that the saber should be some godly weapon that can beat everything else. If this was the case, then there would be no reason whatsoever to use other weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Shaft Posted February 11, 2003 Share Posted February 11, 2003 I agree with that assessment. AT the same time, I have seen people another weapon besides the lightsaber to max effectiveness, and it ALSO makes you wonder what the point of another weapon is. I feel the weapons should have learning curve that was steep enough that you could eventually use whichever weapon you like in a variety of situations. People have done this with the flechette, turning it into a medium AND close range dominance weapon. I understand that complicated saber system would be difficult due to pings and game speeds. I cannot even begin to imagine an innovative method of doing saber combat. However, something in my gut tells me that we could have been given swing animations and attacks that that worked in more capacities than the three we ended up getting. JO's stances, while providing different swings, are all mainly useful for a person standing in front of you with two feet planted. It doesn't help if the guy starts rolling, it gets worse when he starts bunny hopping, and when fighting gunners, instead of giving saberists a logical quick poke attack, we have to do baseball bat swing. Of course, this takes far too long, and you see a jedi get blown across the room. In terms of blocking, I guess creating blocking stances (ah that's too complicated) or just some system where it's not simply the generic "look at the guy". Chances are that won't happen. The stances. The stances should go beyond simple saber combat. there should be stances that excel at people who are grounded and runnig. there should be a stance that works well in aerial combat (high attacks, low attacks, attacks that allow us to efficiently attack when we decend). Stances that incorporate lots of fast, moderate lunges (not exactly like blue lunge). A stance that would have moves that are quick like blue stance, but not wholly inefficient (like blue stance). A stance with quick stabs and pokes, something that would excel in close range combat against a person not armed with a saber, or even when they are armed. All I'm asking for is stances that will work against possible movements of a person. I don't want super speed, i don't want automatic saber lock on. Just something that isn't so clunky and primarily suitable for saber-only servers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emon Posted February 11, 2003 Share Posted February 11, 2003 I think the best combat system would be one similar to FAKK 2's. In FAKK 2, you can wield several different swords and different shields at the same time. You can also wield a gun and a sword, a gun and a shield, two guns, etc., which allows you do do a lot of different combinations. There are also two handed swords and axes. The concept of the system is what you want to be concerned about, as the number of moves and combinations that you could pull off was limited, since it's a few years old. That's the area you would want to improve on, as well as add for two swords (lightsabers), various styles for the sabers, lightstaves, etc. If a good physics system could be worked out, most of the saber combat could be more random and generated on-the-fly, as opposed to premade sets of collision and repel animations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 Originally posted by Rumor i have seen n00bs on their first fight dominate a seasoned player. its quite sad. If this was the case, then the seasoned player wasn't very good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider AL Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 If this was the case, then the seasoned player wasn't very good He or she must have been lightly seasoned. Hur hur. Ahem. Yes, quite. Some people claim that those who are new to JO can easily take out those who have been playing for a long while, and are "leet." But the people who claim this are plainly overestimating the skills of the allegedly "elite" players they've seen beaten. Trust the Spider: If you ever encounter a really good JO player, you'll be lying on the floor groaning about the license plate of the truck that just hit you. There are players so good out there that you'd think they were cheating. Besides Rumor, how do you know the person you saw win, was a newbie? Just because he said he was? Or because his name was all in white? Or because you hadn't seen him around before? People in every game online pretend to be newbies to such an extent that they lose some games on purpose to deepen their disguise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeTRiTiC-iQ Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 Its an annoying truth, knowing that out of about every 10 players I beat with ease, that at least one of them is an "elite" just screwing around. That being said, Spider knows what he says, unless the player is using their real alias, you have no idea who you're up against. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luc Solar Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 There's nothing that infuriates me more than getting my ass handed to me repeatedly by mr. Padawan (no colors). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC | Dark Luke Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 Ok, i´m a very new gamer of JK2, but if there´s something i hate is weapons. Ok, mercs should have their place too, but this game is called "Jedi Knight", a jedi knight doesn´t use blasters or cannons very frequently, i hate when i´m in mplayer and some bastard sees me with my saber and put out some "bfg" and kills me in a sec.(yeah yeah, i´m a noob:( ) Maybe it should be servers for jedis and servers for mercs. Maybe it woun´t be so fun if you can´t deflect blasters and kill some pts, but i prefer that instead pts with big weapons. That`s my opinion, i hope you respect it. SAlu2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeTRiTiC-iQ Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 there ARE servers for sabers only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aoshi Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 heh interesting little debate here. I'm not gonna get into all of the 'what jedi are' arguments and all that. I just think that the next game should be more competitive based. The RPGers have Galaxies so now Lucas should concentrate on making a balanced fps game that will appeal to fans but also appeal to nonfans. Keep in mind that I played guns CTF on teamwarfare so my opinions might not reflect the rest of the saber community. 1) increase the damage of the saber so that a light stance swing = instant kill if directed at an open body part (like the back or the whole body if you dont have your saber out) 2) increase blocking as 'saber defense' goes up and also increase dodging so that duelists can have their "movie like" duels. what i mean by this is say a lightsaber does an instant kill against a gunner who doesnt have his saber out. if he does have his saber out he will either block it or his evade will be activated so that he can partially deflect the brunt of the attack and take minimal damage (35 or so for light stance). as the stance changes for the aggressor, though, the chance to partially evade the attack goes to zero (so a heavy swing unless blocked will kill). 3) do not separate classes and dont separate forces. we all saw in epII that yoda not only absorbed dooku's lightning, but he shot it back at him. why cant a lightside use lightning or a dark use absorb? 4) rework the forces. for example absorb should FRIGGIN ABSORB (so that im not strafing along and then someone pulls me and all of a sudden all of my hardworked velocity is reduced to nothing). and make team energize not so damn spammable. also increase the force used for push and pull or make it so that even at level 3 your crosshair has to be on the person or almost on them for it to work. (in ctf all defenders need to do on ANY map is have 2-3 spamming pull, energize while another kills the guy i mean... there's something wrong here). also rage should have the speed and power bonuses but not the invulnerability bonus too. also i think that increasing the firing rate of a gun while using rage is ridiculous... what do you do, use the force to make you pull the trigger faster? i think that instead, the damage of every shot should be beefed up (like it is being supported by the force or something) 5) increase the damage of saber throw to around 70 or so against someone who doesnt have his lightsaber out. this is the only solution to equalizing gunners and saberists. (also it should move quite a bit quicker and have a fairly wide area of effect) 6) make it so that when a sniper uses seeing in conjunction with his disruptor, he stands a greater chance of piercing his target's defense. 7) instead of making separate stances for holding the lightsaber why not make different fighting styles? there are like 7 in the SW universe or something with 3 being the whirly kind that most use (anakin and luke). dooku uses 1 and i think mace uses 2 (i think yoda uses all of them...dont ask me how i know this). therefore there could be multiple ways of fighting with each having certain strengths and weaknesses instead of just increasing the speed and decreasing the damage or vice versa. for example since 3 was developed to defend against blasters, it's blocking rate and speed is higher but its attack power is lower; 2 would be quick speed wise as well but have lower blocking and higher damage. 1 would be something like strong but with lunges (because that's how dooku fights); it could have massive attack power but medium speed and crappy blocking. all of this would make it so that someone would have different strategies when dealing with different types of aggressors. also maybe another style or two could be invented. one being to counter explosives (it allows for quick bursts of speed with a recovery time inbetween) and maybe another could have pretty weak attributes (quick, low blocking, weak)but incredibly high attack from above. Anyways these are just some of my ideas about how gameplay could be tweaked. As i said i'm a gunner, but i'd love it if a ****ing sword made of light could do more than 35 damage. maybe then i'd use it as more than a shield. oh and just on a side note. luke skywalker almost always runs around with thermal detonators (he uses them at Hoth and at Jabba's place) and jedi use the lightsaber because it is the most effective weapon in that universe. i'm sure if they played jko they'd either adapt to using guns or there would be another 'great jedi purge' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider AL Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 Some excellent points for a future sequel in your post there Aoshi. I too have noted at several points that it would be an improvement if the sabre had tangible damage/area-specific damage or dismemberment in DF4. (note: Not in an expansion to JO mind you) With regards to point #7, I'd also like to see each style available in isolation, (unlike the stances in JO, one had to have both blue and yellow to gain Red,) and I think a player should only be allowed one, possibly two styles, at any one time. This would make one's choices much more personal, and you'd see a greater variety of uses around the pub servers. Naturally everyone would end up using one "ultimate" combination, but it'd increase the learning curve most pleasantly. Re: Point #6, I believe that the sabre throw, like the sabre, should deal damage proportionate to the area it hits. If you get a headshot, it should be an instant kill. Having said this, sabre-throw would be quite powerful then, so the thrower should lose his/her sabre for at least ten seconds post-throw, hit or miss. Just some self-indulgent suggestions from me there, as I don't think many gameplay changes should be irrevocably introduced into an expansion pack. Maybe if it ran as a mod though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Shaft Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 Yes, the stances idea is good. Something that works well in certain areas. More importantly to me, I want stances that provide me with stances that aren't all focused in the frontal area. Going back to MotS style force setups would be nice. Technically, a Sith isn't restricted in what he can do. If we looked at "movie canon", at no point does Yoda say that the Force is give and take, that the Sith gave up one power for another. The whole point of giving into the dark side, in my opinion, wasn't because you thought it was cooler to be on the other half, but because it made you MORE powerful. MotS let you do that. You could give into your violence and have healing powers, or you could be the true light jedi and have mastery in the defensive powers. Of course, that would mean that more force powers would have to be added in. MotS had plenty, including the saber throw, the projection (useless), deadly sight and protection. You could make interesting setups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FatalStrike Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 The "lightsaber v guns" debate still rages on. hehehehe Nothing has changed. Raven has left you in the cold and yet you all remain here adding to the wish lists. Spineless_Al is still filling his role as resident corporate whore, attempting to silence all the voices that noticed when Raven destroyed their own game. People there is no need for debate. ProMod awaits those that value the saber. If you don't like ProMod and miss the special moves then their are a few 1.02 servers swimming against the current of change. Allow the gunners to embrace the bone Raven tossed them in an effort to increase their player base. They worked hard to destroy this game, allow them to enjoy the fruits their labor. Good day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reborn Outcast Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 Originally posted by FatalStrike The "lightsaber v guns" debate still rages on. hehehehe Nothing has changed. Raven has left you in the cold and yet you all remain here adding to the wish lists. Spineless_Al is still filling his role as resident corporate whore, attempting to silence all the voices that noticed when Raven destroyed their own game. People there is no need for debate. ProMod awaits those that value the saber. If you don't like ProMod and miss the special moves then their are a few 1.02 servers swimming against the current of change. Allow the gunners to embrace the bone Raven tossed them in an effort to increase their player base. They worked hard to destroy this game, allow them to enjoy the fruits their labor. Good day. Just wondering but are you one of those people that gets owned by every single gun out there and thats why you hate them. 75% of the owners of JO wouldn't have bought it if it didn't have guns. Just go play on a saber only server sheesh... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FatalStrike Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 Originally posted by Reborn Outcast Just wondering but are you one of those people that gets owned by every single gun out there and thats why you hate them. 75% of the owners of JO wouldn't have bought it if it didn't have guns. Just go play on a saber only server sheesh... Yes that is exactly why. Do you play BF1942? Why don't you come to the Brother's in Arm's server and show me your skill . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zodiac Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 Sabers and guns should be kept separated! History has shown us (= JK1 AND JK2) that there is no way you can balance them and please both sides. Future developers have to realize that sabers and gunners are 2 completely different worlds; with different styles, different tastes, different gameplay and different players. It's always been like that, and I think that's where Raven went wrong: trying to totally balance the gameplay to satisfy those who wanted sabers to be equal to guns and/or guns to be equal to sabers. They can't be equal. They need to be different. They ARE different. Trying to totally balance one to the other always means that the other one gets less playable and less fun. Having two separate communities (gunwhores and gayberists) isn't bad at all. It's actually a lot more fun. More rivalry. And one can always step over to 'the other world'. Don't try to make a gunning saberist, create a 100% saberist and create a 100% gunner and the two worlds will eventually find eachother, skill will evolve. Learn from your mistakes. Make the game more fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zodiac Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 I'm only talking about Multi Player btw. What I'm saying is that they should concentrate on the different types of play first, and just focus on separating them and making them ALL fun, in their own individual kind of way. Not balance one to the other to make one more fun, because that'll always result in one getting more fun, but one getting less fun. They should concentrate on making them all more fun. That may initially lead to separation of the playing styles or the community, but after a while, skill will evolve and the seperate worlds will combine with eachother to create a new world: 1 combined world. So after a while, the gaming-community will consist of combined and separated worlds, thus giving the game more depth and more rivalry and competition and more fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider AL Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 Originally posted by FatalStrike: Raven has left you in the cold and yet you all remain here adding to the wish lists. Spineless_Al is still filling his role as resident corporate whore, attempting to silence all the voices that noticed when Raven destroyed their own game. Nice to see you've matured, Foetalstrike. Who knows, you may even be walking in a couple of decades. One thing that hasn't changed is your dubious choice of challenges though... You saunter on to a dedicated Jedi Outcast forum, insult the patrons and when one of them questions the veracity of your motives, you challenge them to a game of Battlefield 1942. That's apt. Really, really apt. Almost as funky as the time you challenged me to a duel match, and never showed up on any of the servers I listed, despite my constant monitoring of those servers. Reborn Outcast: Foetal was a no-guns-ctf only fanatic according to his own posts, so the answer to your question- straight from the subconcious mind of Foetalstrike- was: "Ah shore am!!11" Originally posted by Zodiac: Having two separate communities (gunwhores and gayberists) isn't bad at all. It's actually a lot more fun. More rivalry. I don't agree. Even in 1.04, I would never go into a guns FFA without my sabre. It's like any other tool, useful in the right hands. Separating the community into two camps and keeping them apart is the constant occupation of complete muppets, IMO. Who says a sabre can't be a useful part of a gunner's arsenal? It's hardly writ large in stone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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