The Return of Kick (among other things)

[Luc Solar]

Originally posted by the weiner dog!

I know it's going to be hard to swallow your pride but I'm sure you can do it.

 

I thought you said that you knew Spider Al?

 

[the weiner dog!]

Al is a cool guy and I really mean him no harm but I also have been around for a very long time and I know he likes to argue just for the sake of arguing.

 

Unlike a lot of people, I’m not going to let up on him until he either develops some serious knowledge of the topic he’s trying to argue (full force saber only combat) or goes hush hush.

 

The whole “I don’t play this game type but I’m going to lecture you on it” thing pretty much was the nail in his coffin as far as his credibility in this discussion was concerned.

[CaptainJackZ]

Well I havn't posted here in a while so I'm gonna throw somethin in. As I started this thread I think it's pretty obvious I want kick back as well. But I also have something to say to about spider.

 

I know people like you, around where I live. I hate everyone of them. You try to talk condescendingly assuming we're all far below your intelligence. You want that it terms you can understand? You think your hot ****. Comin in here trying to tell us "we're going to ruin the game"? This doesn't concern you at all. You think we're going to ruin the game for all other gametypes? Explain that. If it's an option and admins make the decison what's on their server, how is that unfair? They're paying for these servers. I think they deserve to have what they want on there. If you get mad and piss and moan, then you can just go ahead and find a server that doesn't have it. Seeing as you don't like saber only ctf, you shouldn't have a problem with that.

 

Btw, I like ur server dyhead. Spent about 4 hours there last night =)

 

One thing I have noticed in JA is it's easier to play with a higher ping. Last night my ping was 162 all the time. I was usually in the lead and I wasn't laggin at all.

 

I'm not saying I don't like JA the way it is. It is a great game. But think how much better it could be if kick we're an option. Or moves didn't cost force. To give people more options I would think would make more people come then leave. We have more people backing us up than Spider does, so clearly a lot of people want kick back.

[Undisputed]

I agree with CaptainJackZ when he said kicks should be brought back. capture the flag without kick will take forever to score even one point when it is played with only sabers. The new saber moves, the dual and the double bladed saber have a very vague use without the kickflip when it comes to capture the flag.

 

Raven software or lucas arts should create a patch to allow kicks back in the game which would very much applease all of your displeased customers, if not so, atleast make a patch to make kicks toggleable, turn it on or of according to your will, or according to the wishes of the admin.

[Jah Warrior]

Originally posted by The Undisputed

Raven software or lucas arts should create a patch to allow kicks back in the game which would very much applease all of your displeased customers, if not so, atleast make a patch to make kicks toggleable, turn it on or of according to your will, or according to the wishes of the admin.

 

this dude is talking sense... the only approriate suggestion yet.

 

 

Adding kick to every gametype would make duelling tedious at best so why not make it an option....

[Rumor]

Originally posted by Gabrobot

Well, there are many things but I think I'll focus on the multiplayer engine differences, since you seem to be under the misconception that it's 80% the same as that of Jedi Outcast.

 

Some things which come to mind are:

 

It has a shader limit 16 times higher than that of Jedi Outcast. This probably means nothing to you as you aren't an editor...

 

The ICARUS 2 scripting engine has been implemented in Jedi Academy multiplayer. This probably means nothing to you as you aren't an editor...

 

There is now the ability to have vehicles in JA MP (at least in Siege...but it's still part of the JA MP code). It means that you can pilot an AT-ST, ride a Taun-Taun (and a speeder, a Rancor, a Wampa, and any animals/ridable things which people make) and you can fly X-wings/Tie fighters. Not all of these are actually used in the levels, but the functionality is there to be used in custom levels.

 

 

Those are some very big changes, but are hardly the only ones. I'm too tired to go into more detail, and a Raven person would be able to go into the changes best, anyway.

 

seems to me those are all things that have existed in one way or another in q3 engine based games. sure they put a lot of work into it and that is what got us excited. graphical overhauls? i couldn't care less if the game had doom graphics as long as it was a good MP experience, which it is, in siege and gun gametypes. of course you would think differently, but then you don't play against anyone worth mentioning in ff/so, if you even touch it.

[Rumor]

Originally posted by Jah Warrior

this dude is talking sense... the only approriate suggestion yet.

 

 

Adding kick to every gametype would make duelling tedious at best so why not make it an option....

 

thats been suggested MANY times and has been totally dismissed by everyone who thinks "kicks are lamez0r"

[Jah Warrior]

wtf are you talking about...

 

so you dont want it as an option?!?! so all those that are happy with the no kick version will be whining in equal measure when a kick enabled patch comes out?

 

talk sense dude.

 

btw your post added nothing to this topic...

 

"this isnt the topic youare looking for, move along.. move along."

[Rumor]

nah i was simply pointing out that anyone posting here about how kicks shouldn't be in, has totally dismissed that option saying that it would be to popular to enable it again (kinda says that there are a lot of people who want it, eh? not to mention defeating some of their own arguments)

 

thanks for at least being reasonable, jah.

[dyehead]

Great to have you, captain jack!

 

Yeah my server r0x!

[Comm539]

Many of these anti-kickers say 'kicks are an easy kill' and 'people will spam kicks'.

 

Yeh, it's a good job noone spams katas, butterflies and rollstabs, or we would be in trouble. Why on earth would kicks be spammed when these far easier to implement moves do 4x the damage of a kick?

[Spider AL]

Gabrobot, pertinent posts.

 

Originally posted by dyehead:

 

I have read through 4 and a half pages of this thread, and here's what I've figured out.

 

Al has absolutely no need to be posting in this thread. If you don't like sabers only CTF, then please, find an all weapons forum to post in, your opinion really doesn't matter.

Don't be foolish, the request in this thread affects all players, not merely NG CTF players. You don't get to vet who posts what, merely because you don't like what they say.

 

Originally posted by dyehead:

 

Once again, Al, you seem to have half a brain, but I believe your so-called 'non-existent' sabers only community seems to have at least 30 or so people telling you to go away. How does it feel to be hated?

You'll know first-hand, if you succeed in getting a premature patch released, and that patch ruins the game for hundreds more players. Nice insults by the way. Schoolyard fare.

 

Originally posted by dyehead:

 

If people don't like sabers only CTF, how come my server has been full from 8am to 3am every single day since wednesday when I got my pre-order copy of the game?

Obviously your "grasp of the english language" has failed you somewhere along the line... If you can find a SINGLE post in which I claim that generally, "people don't like sabres only CTF," you'll win a cookie.

 

You're very VERY childish by the way. Even more childish and petty than Wiener, if that's possible. Do sort yourself out. Neeexxxt:

 

Originally posted by [div3rse.syn]:

 

And stop your bitching AL. If people enable kick in other game types, that's their own choice.

People make choices that inflict harm on other players. Look at 1.03. You don't get to do that without reply.

 

Originally posted by [D]Fugs:

 

Oh my word I've never heard so much claptrap in all my time. Spider AL, you are the biggest excuse for a competitive player I have ever had the misfortune to address. Any good/high level player wants MORE - more options, more features, more opponents. I think you just don't want kick because it will cramp your specific playing style.

Congratulations Fugs, your very first post on the LF network is an ill-advised, ill-constructed flame! Props to you, and welcome to LF.

 

As to your points, you obviously haven't read the thread, because if you had, you'd have seen me saying on no less than two occasions that I was one of the biggest diehard fans of kick in JO. Kick itself is irrelevant, what's relevant is that these fellows want a premature patch.

 

That's a bad idea.

 

Bad ideas are bad.

 

Getting the drift?

 

Originally posted by [D]Fugs:

 

Your continued torrent of verbal diarrhea not only jeopordises the effectiveness of this thread, and hence the success of Jedi Academy itself,

Actually it's your little chums that are jeopardising the success of JA, with their insistance on a premature patch. I really don't care if you're unaware of the history of 1.03 and the awful effects it had, but I went through it, so I DO know. And I've outlined it several times in this thread, which you have not read.

 

Originally posted by [D]Fugs:

 

I felt a personal urge to speak up because, quite frankly, I think you're an extremely poor ambassador for our country. In fact I'll go so far as to say you're a twit, and I have no wish for you to be associated with myself or the rest of the UK Jedi Knight community.

Fortunately the UK JK community is made up of more perceptive people than yourself. And I've been involved deeply in the UK JK community since late 1998, so you can jolly well boil your extremities, "sonny".

 

Originally posted by [D]Fugs:

 

Oh, and I expect we'll get the gun users complaining too, like Spider guy here, who's probably as happy as a pig in **** now he can run around with absorb and speed on, lobbing grenades at people with no virtually no chance of getting sabered apart from the odd thrown one.

Mmm-hmm... I said at various times during this thread that I'm both a sabreist and a gunner, and that in JO I used kick extensively. There must be some part of that that escapes you. Not sure which.

 

As for your many and similar other "points", they're just rehashes of the tired old rubbish spouted by Wiener and Comm, all of which I've replied to specifically. If you choose to bring them up again, I'll just copy and paste the relevant replies in. You're so desperate to replicate your fave game mode in JA that you're wilfully blind to the negative effects that early gameplay patching can have on a community. Or you just don't care. Either way you're selfish. Good day.

 

Originally posted by the weiner dog!:

 

And Al, this guy admitted it, we all have said it, hell even Cjas admitted it, Jedi Academy is only a "new game" in name.

Heh, you say it because it's the only way you can even ATTEMPT to defend your indefensible and selfish cliquey position. Saying it doesn't make it so. New graphics, new weapons, new moves, new dynamics... new EXE. New game. It's technically true, it's actually true, it's morally true. And don't exaggerate btw, many people have popped into this and other threads to contradict your ludicrous statement that JA is a mod for JO.

 

Originally posted by the weiner dog!:

 

Al is a cool guy and I really mean him no harm but I also have been around for a very long time and I know he likes to argue just for the sake of arguing.

How nice. You don't know me at all, do you son. I do NOT come across as a cool guy, more like a mercenary and lame winner at all costs, and I argue for the sake of things I believe in. Just grow up, wiener.

 

Originally posted by the weiner dog!:

 

Unlike a lot of people, I’m not going to let up on him until he either develops some serious knowledge of the topic he’s trying to argue (full force saber only combat) or goes hush hush.

Winner of two JO FF sabres duel tournaments = me. Winner of three JK FF sabre duel tournaments and countless other FF sabre engagements, = me. I've been playing FF sabres for over four years, and I've beaten many. MANY good people. That's just a fact. I know as much about FF sabres as anyone, and have the record to back it up.

 

Originally posted by CaptainJackZ:

 

Comin in here trying to tell us "we're going to ruin the game"? This doesn't concern you at all.

I kinda want to play the game, so yeah... it really does concern me that you want to ruin the game.

 

Originally posted by CaptainJackZ:

 

You think we're going to ruin the game for all other gametypes? Explain that.

Mmkay. One more time won't hurt I suppose: You want a patch that affects gameplay, right? You want that patch now. The last time a JK series game got a patch prematurely that affected gameplay, it shot the game to crap, alienating huge numbers of dedicated, serious players. It doesn't matter WHAT gameplay change you're asking for. It doesn't matter what game mode it may or may not improve. What matters is you're meddling with forces that nobody yet comprehends. IF you had any sense, you'd leave it for three-six months and THEN whine for a patch. The game will be so much more understood as a whole by that time, and decisions will be able to be made with much more safety for all players, and all game modes.

 

If you don't CARE about other people, that's fine. But I'll always be here to make sure Raven's not just hearing your selfish side of the equation.

[Prime]

Originally posted by The Undisputed

atleast make a patch to make kicks toggleable, turn it on or of according to your will, or according to the wishes of the admin.

I'd be happy with that if it was only available in the CTF gametype through an option. Do people feel it is necessary in other gametypes as well?

[Spider AL]

I'd be happy with that if it was only available in the CTF gametype through an option. Do people feel it is necessary in other gametypes as well?

I'd be happy with it if it was only available in the CTF SABRES ONLY gametype, THEN through an option... And only then on the condition that all these fellows asked Raven specifically not to include ANY other gameplay changes AT ALL in such a patch.

 

But of course they're not going to do that, because they obviously don't care about the effect on other players in other gametypes. Listen to Comm for instance... he spent this entire thread ranting about how worthy his own favourite NG CTF is, then goes into another thread ("why kicks shouldn't be added back in" or somesuch) and proceeds to slag off FF Guns CTF! "just spamming" according to him. These people are dangerous to the community at large.

 

I hope some of them prove me wrong.

[boinga1]

I am sorry, I must have missed something here...just WHY is Jedi Outcast style kick VITAL to the continuation of full force saber only CTF? I have read many times that kick is needed to catch a flag carrier. How, exactly, does Outcast kick allow you to catch the flag carrier?

[dyehead]

Think about it this way, Al...

 

This is NOT a new game, and you know that. Raven did most of its major patching with Jedi Outcast, and resolved most of the minor bugs (aside from the knock down get up lag bug and a couple others), and now they have released another set of single player missions, with practically the same MP mode as Jedi Outcast.

 

You can shout up and down that Jedi Academy is a new game, and in SP, it is a new game. There's an American saying, "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck..." Get the point? MP is the same game as Jedi Outcast with a boob job and a facelift.

 

I was kicking since 1.02 in JO when you didn't have to double tap. I taught many of the people who taught other people who you now see posting about kick, believe it or not. All of the complaints about kick came from the people who couldn't kick, or who couldn't out-kick me.

 

Re: the insults, go figure. If you weren't out to berate every single player's ideas who differ from yours, maybe you wouldn't attract flames? By attempting to shoot down everyone else's opinions, you're not making many friends.

 

Your fellow countrymen even want you to be quiet, man... that's embarrasing. If I were a poster on a foreign bb and another American said, "hey shut up you're embarrasing America," I'd feel horrible.

 

Go make a thread about how great guns are, instead of infecting our beautiful kick forum with your written bowel movements.

[Side]

Al look man,you dont have the game,how can you tell a patch would ruin the game?

if u ever get the game someday,try playing ff duel and s/o ctf it a total mess

[FurionStormrage]

Originally posted by dyehead

Think about it this way, Al...

 

This is NOT a new game, and you know that. Raven did most of its major patching with Jedi Outcast, and resolved most of the minor bugs (aside from the knock down get up lag bug and a couple others), and now they have released another set of single player missions, with practically the same MP mode as Jedi Outcast.

 

By legal definition, this is a new game.

 

1) Does it require the previous game to play? No.

2) Does it load up as a mod in JO? No.

3) Can you buy it in the store without having to buy any of the previous games? Yes.

 

Therefore, it IS a new game by legal definition.

 

Your fellow countrymen even want you to be quiet, man... that's embarrasing. If I were a poster on a foreign bb and another American said, "hey shut up you're embarrasing America," I'd feel horrible.

 

Oh, what a pathetic Appeal to Popularity. I guess if now I tell you that I am ashamed that you are an "American" (which by definition includes North and South America, so I suspect you meant a resident of the USA) you are all of a sudden going to stop posting here, or at least you'll now feel bad about what you posted? I think not.

[traj]

I can see Al giggling at his desk as he types, rubbing his hands together ala Monty Burns.

 

You make some great arguments Al, you really do. I'd be inclined to agree with your ideas more if you weren't so smug and didn't always try to belittle everyone who dares to have an opinion opposite yours.

 

How do you know that the patch is premature Al? Maybe there are some very relevant balancing problems caused by a lack of beta testing in the FF/SO CTF game mode.

 

Maybe Raven is saying "Holy ****, these guys are right. When 2 teams know what they're doing it's a stalemate EVERY SINGLE TIME. WTF WERE WE THINKING?"

 

We're expressing our opinion on the game play in this game mode. These guys were/are the best in the game. They know what they're talking about. They understand the game mechanics and what is and isn't possible. Give them some credit.

[traj]

I wish these boards were more about finding solutions and less about winning an argument.

[Comm539]

Yes legally its a new game. But the fact is that JA is 80% identical in code to JK2. This mean 80% of the gameplay is identical.

 

 

Notice how you didn't quote me Al .

 

Why are you so threatened by kicks? They're easily avoidable in non ctf scenarios.

 

Katas, butterflies, rollstabs are all whored. They do 4x as much damage as a kick (some are even 1 hit kills). Kicks are harder to perform than these manouvers and do less damage. Why on earth would people spam kicks when they can do an instant kill move?

 

Why are you moaning over something that does 20hp damage?

 

How can kicking ruin a game where the most efficient way to kill someone is now to spam duel saber swings as close as you can to them?

[boinga1]

Originally posted by Comm539

Why are you moaning over something that does 20hp damage?

 

That's what I'd like to know. Why are you moaning over something that did 20 damage? No one bothered to reply to my simple question: How does kicking help you catch a flag carrier?

 

And also- any patch that is released within, say, a month or so of release in premature, unless it fixes SERIOUS bugs. I mean bugs, like crashes, not the refusal of a small community to adapt. If a group screams, "OMG THIS GAME SUX N0 K1CK" in the first WEEK after release, that's premature. Now, after about a month of playing, adapting, and failing, then it may be OK to try to get a patch. But NOT the first week.

[traj]

Look, the togglable kick option is the best way to go.

 

Basically you have to different types of JA players. Those who like a faster paced game like JO that had kicks, grip kicks, throw pull kicks etc. and those who like a slower more saber oriented game.

 

If you make togglable kicks an option you will split the community into these 2 seperate groups. If you don't, the half of the community who like faster paced games won't play. Either way you're gonna lose half the community.

 

So why not make it an option. What's the difference? We're not going to all of the sudden decide that slower paced games are our cup of tea. We will find other games to play. Either way, your community will be half sized.

 

The difference is, that if RAVEN decides to make these options togglable then they will have more people buying they're game and not someone else's. The game would be appealing to double the consumer market.

 

Half of the JO community is waiting for word on whether or not to dish out $50 to buy this game. The answer they're getting is, wait. But if the game doesn't speed up, the answer they'll be getting will be, don't waste your money.

 

Pretty simple choice for RAVEN if you ask me.

[Comm539]

Originally posted by boinga1

That's what I'd like to know. Why are you moaning over something that did 20 damage? No one bothered to reply to my simple question: How does kicking help you catch a flag carrier?

 

And also- any patch that is released within, say, a month or so of release in premature, unless it fixes SERIOUS bugs. I mean bugs, like crashes, not the refusal of a small community to adapt. If a group screams, "OMG THIS GAME SUX N0 K1CK" in the first WEEK after release, that's premature. Now, after about a month of playing, adapting, and failing, then it may be OK to try to get a patch. But NOT the first week.

 

 

No one bothered to reply because your question reveals you know nothing about s/o ctf.

In short, kick is a way to stop the fc, not kill him. Kick is needed tos top someone not kill them, but i'm sick of explaining this to people who have obviously never played s/o ctf.

[FurionStormrage]

Originally posted by Comm539

Yes legally its a new game. But the fact is that JA is 80% identical in code to JK2. This mean 80% of the gameplay is identical.

 

Oh, this is a FACT, is it? I assume you have a hex dump of both EXEs to prove your assertion? I think not...

 

Notice how you didn't quote me Al .

 

I'm not Al. I was responding to someone else.

 

Why are you so threatened by kicks? They're easily avoidable in non ctf scenarios.

 

Katas, butterflies, rollstabs are all whored. They do 4x as much damage as a kick (some are even 1 hit kills). Kicks are harder to perform than these manouvers and do less damage. Why on earth would people spam kicks when they can do an instant kill move?

 

And I assume all you "professional gamers" (BTW, that term is a misnomer) figured out how to whore-kick and had all the moves figured out one week after release of JO? Somehow I think common sense was left behind when a few people logged onto this forum.

 

The gameplay is different. That is a fact. If it isn't a fact, WHY ARE YOU BITCHING, MOANING, AND WHINING?

 

Why are you moaning over something that does 20hp damage?

 

How can kicking ruin a game where the most efficient way to kill someone is now to spam duel saber swings as close as you can to them?

 

In JO it does more than 20 HP damage. It a) ignores shields, and b) is not blockable by someone holding a sabre. At least with sabre combat I have a *chance* to block.