Oblivion: ESRB hits again...

[ChAiNz.2da]

For some reason, many Americans seem to be afraid of boobs.

We're not afraid of boobs.. we have the 2 biggest ones running our Country hehehe...

[Aash Li]

America is SO backwards... destruction and blood and guts and murder is fine but woe unto you if you show boobs!! This country often makes me nauseous with its puritanical BS.

[Samuel Dravis]

I just learned that even the mod itself just uses a male chest texture (which has a nipple, OMG! That should be classed as pr0n!) applied to a female body mesh. The texture had to be purposefully switched by the user (renamed and placed in a different folder) for any 'nudity' other than the Barbie doll kind to exist. Technically, it was 'in the shipped game,' and that's what they're using to defend their decision. ESRB == Idiots. Makes you wonder how they're supposed to even rate the games when they have no idea what's going on in the first place.

[REDJOHNNYMIKE]

Stupid puritans, afraid of boobs!......

ZOMG! Violence! How uncivilized:eek:

 

If someone broke into my house and threatened my family I'd slit his throat with my bare hands.

 

You don't know what's wrong. You don't know what's right. When you write the book on the subject please send me a copy, I could use a good laugh.

Those who are offended by nudity (even if it isn't true nudity in this particular game) have just as much right to protect their children from what they consider harm as you do your children or your own mind.

 

So quit whining about how stupid and backward everyone else is when there's absolutely no way that you yourself are perfect.

[lukeiamyourdad]

If someone broke into my house and threatened my family I'd slit his throat with my bare hands.

 

Totally different situation. Self-defense is very different from cold-blooded murder and you know it.

 

You don't know what's wrong. You don't know what's right. When you write the book on the subject please send me a copy, I could use a good laugh.

Those who are offended by nudity (even if it isn't true nudity in this particular game) have just as much right to protect their children from what they consider harm as you do your children or your own mind.

 

Sure they do. Watch what kind of MODS your kids download. Oblivion "vanilla" is not porn and is not meant to contain any nudity. It was a mod. Hell, we're talking PC mod here. If your kid can download some pixelated boobs for game, he can download porn. There's no way the parent can "protect" them if that's the case.

 

So quit whining about how stupid and backward everyone else is when there's absolutely no way that you yourself are perfect.

 

Of course no one is perfect and I hear nobody claiming that he or she holds ultimate truth. However, on balance of "morality" and what is harmful, boobs are very low except for crazy puritans. I've never heard of boobs murdering people or corrupting the thoughts of teenagers...errr wait...

Well, you know what I'm saying anyway, boobs are not evil. Gratuitous violence is.

[REDJOHNNYMIKE]

"I agree with D333's point about violence vs nudity. Seeing a boob is worse then killing people. There's something inherently wrong in that idea. Saying that a simple harmless and totally natural thing is worse the violence is seriously lacking any kind of logic."

-LIAYD

 

Funny, I didn't see you make any distinction between Self-defense and cold-blooded murder. If you attacked me and, after a bloody fight, I broke your neck, would you call my actions violent?

 

"Sure they do. Watch what kind of MODS your kids download. Oblivion "vanilla" is not porn and is not meant to contain any nudity. It was a mod. Hell, we're talking PC mod here. If your kid can download some pixelated boobs for game, he can download porn. There's no way the parent can "protect" them if that's the case."

 

As SD stated, there is a braless model existing in-game for the purpose of efficiency and functionality, I probably would've done the same thing (and added cylinders to other models so my character is more realistic to:lol:), but someone trying to mod their first game could find something their guardians don't want them to be exposed to, without ever downloading a pornographic mod. But the fact remains that something exists in the game which certain parties may find offensive, I know rating boards can't please everyone, but if they aren't going above and beyond the call of duty then why do they have jobs? The small (M: Realistic Violence, Drug Abuse) is helpful for a first impression, but there should be a more thourough analysis available for those who want it.

 

"Well, you know what I'm saying anyway, boobs are not evil. Gratuitous violence is."

 

I didn't say boobs were evil, my posed question is "what makes the purpose of the presentation of those boobs any more or less evil than violence?"

 

"However, on balance of "morality" and what is harmful, boobs are very low except for crazy puritans"

 

Please explain this statement.

[Aash Li]

RJM I would take the time to explain it, but you seem to always want to argue with everything everyone says, so whats the point?

[lukeiamyourdad]

Funny, I didn't see you make any distinction between Self-defense and cold-blooded murder. If you attacked me and, after a bloody fight, I broke your neck, would you call my actions violent?

 

Did I need to make one? I don't think so. The distinction is common knowledge and one would think everyone knows about it.

 

 

As SD stated, there is a braless model existing in-game for the purpose of efficiency and functionality, I probably would've done the same thing (and added cylinders to other models so my character is more realistic to:lol:), but someone trying to mod their first game could find something their guardians don't want them to be exposed to, without ever downloading a pornographic mod. But the fact remains that something exists in the game which certain parties may find offensive, I know rating boards can't please everyone, but if they aren't going above and beyond the call of duty then why do they have jobs? The small (M: Realistic Violence, Drug Abuse) is helpful for a first impression, but there should be a more thourough analysis available for those who want it.

 

You have to assemble it yourself. The braless models contains no nipples.

 

You realize that at this rate, every existing game should get an M rating? Such actions open the Pandora's Box of censorship. Now, developers almost have to fight against modders to avoid any nude mods ever coming out. Hey, there's some nude mods for Sid Meier's Pirates, never heard about that getting an M rating. Hell, name a lot of games and there's nude mods.

 

 

 

I didn't say boobs were evil, my posed question is "what makes the purpose of the presentation of those boobs any more or less evil than violence?"

 

Please explain this statement.

 

 

I did. You just ignored that part.

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

If someone broke into my house and threatened my family I'd slit his throat with my bare hands.

You can't slit someone's throat with your bare hands...

 

what makes the purpose of the presentation of those boobs any more or less evil than violence?

I've never turned on the news and heard "...earlier today, a 28 year-old man was beaten to death by a pair of boobs. Traces of silicone were found on his corpse and police are attempting to trace the source of it..." I've also never heard of boobs causing serious injury to others, and my aunt (who's a nurse) has never seen someone in the emergency room for boob-related injuries.

 

I have, however, heard about people being stabbed, shot, beaten, or otherwise brutalized and scarred (physically and mentally) for the rest of their lives.

[Mace MacLeod]

It seems to me that any 16-year-old who hasn't seen a breast won't be playing video games.

 

Over the course of my 32 years, I've met no end of 16-year-old boys glued to their computer screens 23 hours a day who, if confronted by a naked woman, would probably scamper off in panic to find a first-aid kit.

 

I've seen this kind of debate in so many media sources, and I always think the same thing. This is going on in a country where a split-second flash of a partially naked boob during the Superbowl caused mass outrage. No offence, but remember, America (as a country) was originally formed by people who got kicked out of England for being too uptight.

[Hallucination]

Over the course of my 32 years, I've met no end of 16-year-old boys glued to their computer screens 23 hours a day who, if confronted by a naked woman, would probably scamper off in panic to find a first-aid kit.

Only if they're confronted by a real naked woman, 'cause that kind of guys like to look at teh pr0n when they can.

I've seen this kind of debate in so many media sources, and I always think the same thing. This is going on in a country where a split-second flash of a partially naked boob during the Superbowl caused mass outrage. No offence, but remember, America (as a country) was originally formed by people who got kicked out of England for being too uptight.

It was also formed by teh witchezzes!!!1!11!!!1one!1one

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

No offence, but remember, America (as a country) was originally formed by people who got kicked out of England for being too uptight.

We kicked their asses out a while back. The ones we're dealing with now are the sheltered ones

[Aash Li]

America (as a country) was originally formed by people who got kicked out of England for being too uptight.

 

They didnt get kicked out, they fled because the Catholic controlled government was persecuting them for not being catholic. It was either catholic or protestant controlled at the time. I cant remember which. Since the two sects took turns jailing and executing each other. lol

[Samnmax221]

I beleive you meen the church of England

[Mace MacLeod]

They didnt get kicked out, they fled because the Catholic controlled government was persecuting them for not being catholic. It was either catholic or protestant controlled at the time. I cant remember which. Since the two sects took turns jailing and executing each other. lol

 

As Samnmax said, C of E, not Catholic. Think King Henry VIII. The Pilgrims were Protestants who were even more Protestant than the ones in charge.

 

But my point was, this instinctual "sex and nudity are evil" response to (in this case) pixelated boobs runs very deep in the US. The Religious Right are more powerful than ever at the moment, and the media are all terrified of running afoul of them. One could make a good case for the separation of Church and State breaking down these days--bad news for anyone who actually values the freedoms the Pilgrims left England to establish.

[REDJOHNNYMIKE]

@Aash, Yup, my brother says I'm "contrary", I prefer "socially aggressive, short tempered, conflictphiliac, with overcritical tendencies, and paranoid disbelief of imposed reality" or s.a.s.t.c.w.o.t.a.p.d.o.i.r.ial for short.

And besides, it's so much more interesting to argue about something than to just get all bandwagonjumpy fanboyish about whatever the current topic of discussion happens to be.

That's reality, pure unclarified comedy;)

 

@LIAYD, What distinction? Self defense and murder can have the same level of violence. Both are killing?

 

Like I said, putting a rating on something can only handle so much (you'd run out of room on the box) but there should be an analysis system detailed enough for someone who would require it.

 

"I did. You just ignored that part."

 

No. You simply didn't use enough detail and description to warrant me being interested enough to take it seriously.

 

@jmac, Well, probably more of a tearing/ripping sort of action, but I prefer the way "slit" rolls of the tongue (or in this case, fingers).

 

"I've never..."

 

That's because you're confusing the literal aplications of the two, and for some reason assuming that a physical "boob" is the problem.

 

"I have however..."

 

So, extramarital affairs have never scarred anyone mentally or physically for the rest of their lives?

 

Breasts, however, are lethal weapons:lol:

 

 

@Mace, Yeah, the superbowl thing was kinda funny. I was in the kitchen getting snacks at the time cuz halftime shows usually suck:D

 

@Hal, "Teh pr0n"

 

*gasp* You totally don't sound like you're speaking from experience in said group!

 

@jmac pt.2, Yup, the ones hiding in shelters, and the spiritual warlords you just can't change:twogun:

 

'ats why I'm watcha call non-denominational:xp:

 

Sex is good, it's misuse is not.

 

"the media are all terified of running afoul of them"

 

Best funny all day! You must read one of the only "Right" newspapers and watch one of the only "Right" television channels! How did you find it?

[lukeiamyourdad]

Aash Li was right. It's pointless to "argue" with you. You can't come up with decent arguments or veer off the topic.

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

@REDJOHNNYMIKE-

You're missing my point. I'm saying one is, by definition, the act of harming or killing another, the other is not. If you don't agree that harming/killing another human being is worse, you should schedule some sort of neurological examination.

[Darth333]

If I had kids, I wouldn't want them to play this game because of the violence and I think the M rating is appropriate. Some quests wouldn't make me want to let a 13yr old kid play that game. I think about the numerous mutilated corpses you find everywhere but more particularily in Oblivion (the corpses that hang upside down suspended from the ceilings), the Dark Brotherhood quests in which cold blooded murder is not only encouraged but praised (in one scene near the end of the quest the murder is also particularly savage...you don't get to see the murder but you get to see the results and the npcs comment on it...) and some other scenes. It's not just the images but the dialogue and the context. If those violence elements were not there, and if it was just for the topless female model included in the .bsa's, I wouldn't mind letting my kids (if I had some) play the game.

 

 

Not only the topless model could not be accessed without a third party mod/and or third party tools downloadable from the net but it had nothing to do with porn (nothing to see with the "hot coffee" sex game, which was pretty tasteless for a video game IMHO). It was not a disrespectful and degrading representation of the female body. It wasn't an entirely nude model and it wasn't there for sexual purposes but for art and functionality reasons: they needed a model without a bra for some outfits such as the huntsman vest. As long as it's not vulgar, I don't have a problem with it. The human body in itself is not wrong and everyone knows what it looks like. It's the context and what you do with the human body that matters. I think nudity is too often confused with vulgarity and/or porn.

 

 

The funniest part in this story is the way in which Bethesda has dealth with the problem: I didn't installed the patch so this is just hearsay but it seems that they fixed the issue by removing the nipples from the texture... nipples = nudity, no nipples = "kid safe". We are using fig leaves again when even the Vatican removes them: most of the clothes added by Daniele da Volterra in the mid 16th century to Michelangelo's frescos in the Sistine Chapel's were removed during the restoration of the chapel in the 80-90's... the ceiling of the Chapel now features fully naked figures.

 

Nevertheless, the ERSB letter published here seems to be good news for modders:

 

It is inevitable that some may disagree with the ESRB’s actions in this instance. We simply ask those who disagree to consider that consumers, especially parents, count on ESRB ratings for reliable and accurate information about what’s in a computer or video game. They deserve to know what they are buying, and the ESRB is both obligated and committed to providing the most reliable and accurate ratings information possible. If content that would affect a rating is left on a game disc, even if it is not intended to be accessible during normal gameplay, it must be considered in the assignment of that rating. On the other hand, many mods actually introduce new content into a game that was created by a third party and not the publisher. These mods are beyond the publisher’s control, and therefore cannot reasonably or practically be considered in the assignment of ratings.

[Jae Onasi]

As Samnmax said, C of E, not Catholic. Think King Henry VIII. The Pilgrims were Protestants who were even more Protestant than the ones in charge.

 

But my point was, this instinctual "sex and nudity are evil" response to (in this case) pixelated boobs runs very deep in the US. The Religious Right are more powerful than ever at the moment, and the media are all terrified of running afoul of them. One could make a good case for the separation of Church and State breaking down these days--bad news for anyone who actually values the freedoms the Pilgrims left England to establish.

 

There is a little confusion on what the 'Religious Right' views as 'evil. I suppose I fall into the theological definition of 'Religious Right', though don't follow all the tenets of their social platform. Some things in the social platform can be silly, and some things are very serious attempts to keep the culture out of the toilet before we totally flush ourselves. The separation of church and state issue is fascinating, and I could have a long chat about that, but that's another thread.

 

Sex and nudity are not inherently evil to the 'Religious Right'. If it were, none of us would have any kids because we'd a. never get naked and further, b. never have sex. Since many of us have managed to reproduce (whether you want that or not) without artificial or Immaculate assistance, we've probably figured out that this is not an evil thing. Most of us are not prudes, most of us simply decide that sex and nudity are private, special, and not to be treated with the disrespect of a casual 'hook-up'

 

What is a problem is the intent of the image of a breast or other anatomy. If it's meant to be educational or for breastfeeding, I have no issues for it. My kids will see age-appropriate materials on human anatomy when they ask me or hubby about it or in health class, whichever comes first.

 

However, if my kids wanted to see a Playboy magazine, I'd have a big problem with it, because the intent of Playboy and other materials in that vein are to be erotic. The intent is not education (despite what anyone says about the articles), it's purely about creating sexual excitement. I object to breasts being imaged for this purpose, and I'm not even going to touch on the sexual exploitation of women problem.

 

The problem with the US isn't prudery about breasts. The problem is that we in the US are not able to differentiate the non-sexual connotations about breasts from the sexual. Other countries have the ability to view it as a non-sex organ and not get all nutsoid about it, but Americans don't.

 

If a game is an educational one, then I don't have an issue with naked people. Most games don't fall in that category. If there's a naked woman in a game, the probability is very low that she's there to provide a tutorial on breast anatomy. As a parent, I want the option of deciding whether it's appropriate for my child to see a naked woman/man or hardcore violence or gore (regardless of whether the rating is actually enforced at an individual store).

 

Once they're 18 and out of the house (whichever comes later) then they will hopefully have matured physically, emotionally, and mentally enough to make appropriate decisions on their own. Until that time, it's my job (for my kids) to sift through the various games to decide whether something is going to be played in my house. I can't do that without some guidelines. I don't have time to play every game, and I sure don't want to put money in the pocket of someone creating a porn game just to find out if it's OK or not.

 

So yes, I'm fine with ESRB making an arbitrary decision about where breasts fall on the rating continuum and whether it's equivalent to violence/gore. I'd also rather they take a very conservative view on ratings than liberal. I'd rather a parent make a choice to ignore a rating they consider too conservative than a kid to get a game that's clearly not appropriate for them because the ratings were too liberal.

[Mace MacLeod]

I have no problem with mature 16+ or 18+ ratings on games featuring nudity or graphic violence, but the whole concept of rating a game as such if the potential for third-party modding to create nudity or violence within an game that didn't include it out of the box is just plain over the top. I'm not opposed to the idea of simply HAVING a rating system, but c'mon. Jae, we're both parents here. A ratings system can't do our jobs for us.

 

And yes, obviously all these "Religious Right" people that I generically referred to didn't all get here by being beamed down by aliens or something. I actually was aware that even people who hold conservative attitudes about sexuality do, in fact, not reproduce asexually. I don't mean to insult you Jae, but I wasn't under the impression you and Jimbo underwent cellular fission, or released your spores into the prevailing winds. When I say "Religious Right", I was (perhaps foolishly) referring to the political force that currently dominates the US federal government. These are the people that, IMHO, have crossed the line between expressing their spiritual beliefs and ramming them down everyone else's throats.

[Jae Onasi]

Sorry Mace, some of my post was pretty tongue-in-cheek but I was wiped out last night getting home from flying across 2 time zones to attend a 3 day conference in the beautiful Cascades. It wasn't meant to be insulting. I just forgot to put in some smilies to make that more clear. Your idea of reproduction via spores was very amusing.

 

I actually feel like the ultra-liberal left is ramming its politics down my throat. I was the token Democrat in my professional school (they all thought I was just this side of communist, and I'm pretty centrist ), so I'm no stranger to politics on either side of the liberal/conservative fence. I far prefer the politics of Lieberman to someone way out in left field like Dean.

 

I know the game creators can't control what 3rd party modders do. I wouldn't doubt there are some very 'unique' mods of Kotor floating around out there (and no, I really don't want to know ).

 

I think this game should have been rated M to begin with for violence, not for the possibility of a modder to draw in obscene skins. If you can easily make people naked in a game, however, I think that should also have an M rating.

 

I know the rating system doesn't do the job completely--it requires reading reviews of the game and doing a little research, and I have no problem doing that, but some parents do--they're either not adequately involved (by choice or unfortunate circumstances like severe illness), don't care, or simply don't understand. No system is ever going to be perfect. However, you can only put so much info on the back of the box, and that's intended to sell the game, not inform parents about reasons not to buy the game for their kids. And I know some kids can go into some stores and buy a game regardless of rating and age. Wally-world got in some trouble (or at least made it to the news) a few years back for selling M games to under-aged. Not to mention that if my kids go to a friend's house and they have the game, my kids might see something they shouldn't.

 

However, a rating system is better than nothing, and I'd rather it was a little conservative. If a kid has parents who just don't care to check these things out, at least the kids will theoretically be prevented from buying material they really shouldn't be seeing at that age. If a kid can't buy a game and the parent thinks it's OK, then fine, let the parent buy the game. I'm not trying to be cavalier here about teenagers, many of whom display greater judgment skills than some of the adults I see, but I'm not too concerned about a 13 year old being 'inconvenienced' in buying a game.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Truth is, statistically, 9 out of 10 games are bought by adults according to some research I forgot about. I'll try and find the link. Obviously, even if we put an M rating on everything, items will get through for sure.