HerbieZ Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 I think some people are confused as to what those of us who are glad he's dead are saying. Nobody has claimed that killing him will stop the terrorism. And nobody has said that it's all over now that he's gone. Far from it. But it's a damn good thing that this dirty ****tard is burning in hell all the same. I would have been happy to see him in a cell, yes - but I'm not complaining that he's dead, either. Now, Herbie. Western terrorism works differently. People aren't killed specifically for the purpose of inspiring fear. The media takes advantage of death and destruction in our culture by bombarding us with conspiracy theories and the like. The terrorism practised by us does not kill people - the random (for lack of a better word) deaths that occurr are exploited and used against us. The big media people deserve prison - but not death. They don't kill people. Al-Zarqawi did. He deserved what he got. I never mentioned western terrorism. Mind, i understand what you mean about the media though. No doubt in the next few months there will be countless Discovery channel documentaries about Zaqawi with CG recreations of his safe house and everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Doctor Posted June 9, 2006 Author Share Posted June 9, 2006 I have no issue with him being killed. I just think some of the comments being made are rather hypocritical in comparison to the messages the same people are saying about terrorists, etc. Then the misunderstanding is in part my fault. I apologise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 "Your future al-Zarquawi" Looks like he got more than we promised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samnmax221 Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 Bout ****ing time, won't stop the violence but will disorganize them for a bit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jae Onasi Posted June 10, 2006 Share Posted June 10, 2006 Achilles asked how you can have enough of someone after 2 large bombs to be able to ID him. This article addressed how he probably died and how there could still be a reasonably intact person after that kind of devastation. http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=2058976&page=1 Looking at the photo of his head, I think it's also highly likely that he had a skull fracture because of how his left cheek and eyes look (especially the left one) and what looks like it could be blood in the left ear. If that's the case, then I don't think he tried to get up off the stretcher because he was trying to get away from US forces--I think he was getting up because that's something people with bad concussions do because they're really confused (and it would explain the incoherent mumbling). I did first aid on a guy who got a bad concussion at a taekwondo tourney a couple weeks back. The first thing he tried to do when he regained consciousness was try to get up because he was scared and confused about where he was and what all the people around him were doing. The medical trivia for the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSR Posted June 10, 2006 Share Posted June 10, 2006 another point involving custer he was "friends" with the indians (as such) and they respected him, as much as they told him that if he were to die in battle against them, they would not scalp him. what happened? they did. so as it seems, history is obviously going to repeat itself, and no peace treaty or deal is going to be followed. someone who obviously is so stuck up their own a***s so far is going to do some random act of violence and complicate it. the best thing that could be done is to pull out, and as has already been said, hope democracy does it's thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Achilles Posted June 10, 2006 Share Posted June 10, 2006 Thanks for the link, Jae. I now know more about bomb-related trauma than I ever thought I would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth InSidious Posted June 10, 2006 Share Posted June 10, 2006 al-Zarqawi was not a nice man. The world is quite possibly better off without him. Nonetheless, the passing of any human life is regrettable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jae Onasi Posted June 10, 2006 Share Posted June 10, 2006 Thanks for the link, Jae. I now know more about bomb-related trauma than I ever thought I would. You never know when that knowledge could come in handy. @venom--every time I read anything about Custer, all I can think of is the Far Side cartoon "Custer's Last View". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattwild Posted June 10, 2006 Share Posted June 10, 2006 The reason that Bin Laden hasn't been caught yet is something to do with Bush and Bin Laden having family connections in oil that go wwwwaaaaaayyyy back. And I don't think anyone really has any idea of what to do in Iraq. The American and British governments have forced their way in without UN backing, and now are engaged in impossibly difficult guerilla warfare which they can't win. On top of that there's the whole scandal with American troops bursting into innocent civilians houses and shooting them. On al-Zarqawi, I don't think anyone should celebrate someones death. Although to be honest, his death is better than him still being free to kill civilians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSR Posted June 10, 2006 Share Posted June 10, 2006 @venom--every time I read anything about Custer, all I can think of is the Far Side cartoon "Custer's Last View". eh? i googled it and cant find it. explain to a poor unknowledgable child please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingerhs Posted June 11, 2006 Share Posted June 11, 2006 well, good riddance. i still think my Dad got it right whenever we heard that he was still alive when they found him: the last thing the man saw was American Soldiers about to pronounce him dead at the scene. quite ironic, if you ask me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FiEND_138 Posted June 11, 2006 Share Posted June 11, 2006 Bout ****ing time Amen. Though it is a shame it was a couple 500lb bombs & not a knife to the neck. On al-Zarqawi, I don't think anyone should celebrate someones death Blows up some party balloons & buys a case of NewCastle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jae Onasi Posted June 11, 2006 Share Posted June 11, 2006 eh? i googled it and cant find it. explain to a poor unknowledgable child please. Picture yourself laying on the ground, looking up at about 5 Indians in war paint and feathers and the whole nine yards, all grinning malevolently. I'll see if I can find it in my collection of Far Side books. I tried to find a link online but was unsuccessful. @mattwild--there certainly are insurgents, but the guerrilla warfare is nothing like what we've seen in other wars. Don't be too hasty to judge those soldiers--we don't have all the facts and forensic evidence. If those soldiers are guilty, then I have no problem with those soldiers paying the penalty. However, I don't want to crucify them without having _all_ the facts, not just what one reporter thinks he saw. I doubt this group of soldiers woke up one day and said to themselves, 'hey, I think I'll go and take out an entire household of innocents just for the h#ll of it.' Death of innocents unfortunately happens on both sides in every war. When you're a teenager (because a lot of these guys are 18 or 19) getting shot at and people have been killed or injured around you, and you have to make snap decisions on little sleep while living in unpleasant conditions with the adrenaline racing, sometimes you get it wrong. That in no way means they should get off scot-free if they're guilty--they need to be held accountable for their actions. However, this is much more complex than "some US troops went in and killed inncoent people for no particular reason." I think once we get more forensic information and a decent investigation, then we can decide whether to shred them in the press or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astrotoy7 Posted June 11, 2006 Share Posted June 11, 2006 .... But it's a damn good thing that this dirty ****tard is burning in hell all the same. I would have been happy to see him in a cell, yes - but I'm not complaining that he's dead, either.... Hmmm. Now If I remember correctly Doc, you were one the more religious members of AHTO. The way you are speaking isnt very Christian at all... Didnt Jesus say "Love your enemy" ?? Violence is abhorrent, under any banner, and violence in retirbution for violence solves nought save for feeding a base human desire. As a muslim myself, I am often annoyed by the "eye for an eye" association people seem to make with Islam. As with many things, braindead fundamentalists have taken the words of the Kuran and twisted them to suit their own warped agenda. 95% of the Kuran is the old testament, so it can contain some very absolute statements. Whether they are applicable in a very literal sense is highly questionable. Im not celebrating this man's death. If anything, in the eyes of his followers - it has made him a martyr, which would have the exact opposite effect as far as reducing violence is concerned. Also, it is another significant step away from any action to decipher and address the underlying causes of this massive divide that has formed between various peoples of these(very similar) faiths. As I noted in the equivalent thread at the Cantina - Dealing with Terrorism does not simply involve killing the leaders of any current faction. He will simply be replaced by another. But of course, *some* Western Leaders seem to think it isnt a very deeply seeded global problem, but moreso a game of cards. Getting rid of Saddam, Osama etc wont eliminate the danger at all, just alter face of who's in charge. Im not in any way justifying the actions of these murderous idiots, and they have engendered much negativity to peace loving muslims around the world(myself included) - but the issue remains, until there is understanding at a spiritual level and co-operation at a developmental and infrastructure level, the gap between the ideologies and their communities will further increase. Having worked with Islamic kids in Indonesia and the Phillipines I can see the potential for kids to be brainwashed by fundamental groups. Growing up in poverty with poor nutrition, no healthcare and little or no education makes them easily swayed. All in all, a sad state of affairs, and a very dark time for a world where we would all expect to be more enlightened and tolerant mtfbwya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSR Posted June 11, 2006 Share Posted June 11, 2006 jesus also said (supposedly) "sell your jacket for a sword" i think that fits in quite well. maybe that is how the terrorists percieve the coalition forces as a threat to their normal way of life. they may believe that what they are doing is right, i.e the attacks, executions to try and get rid of the "outside invaders" etc. that may be worded wrongly due to a severe alcohol induced headache i'm currently suffering... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jae Onasi Posted June 11, 2006 Share Posted June 11, 2006 jesus also said (supposedly) "sell your jacket for a sword" i think that fits in quite well. maybe that is how the terrorists percieve the coalition forces as a threat to their normal way of life. they may believe that what they are doing is right, i.e the attacks, executions to try and get rid of the "outside invaders" etc. that may be worded wrongly due to a severe alcohol induced headache i'm currently suffering... Luke 22:36--said on the night before Christ was crucified--if you read several verses before and after that, the context was 'when you were with Me while I was teaching, everything was provided for you and you were protected. After I'm gone, you'll have to provide again and defend yourself again.' The sword in this context is meant for defense if they got attacked by bandits when traveling between cities. It was not intended for offense. @Astrotoy--while I'm not rejoicing at his death, I'm not sorry for a minute that he's gone. The guy, no matter what religion he was, had a lot of blood on his hands, and he was going to continue killing whoever didn't agree with him. I saw him as a killer who happened to give lipservice to Islam and use it as an excuse to conduct terrorism, rather than a Muslim who happened to also be a killer, if that makes any sense whatsoever. I didn't think he was representative of the positives of Islam any more than the Westboro people are representative of the positives of Christianity. Every religion, or even major group of people, has its share of kooks. The organization will be disrupted for a time with him gone, and that maybe could help slow down the violence. I don't see that there was any other option for dealing with him--if we could have captured him, that would have been a boon for us. He had a ton of information on al-Qaeda that would have been very useful. From a strategic point of view, it would have been better to capture him. What was the alternative? He wasn't the kind of person who would sit down and be reasonable and say 'OK, I'm going to get along and be tolerant now.' Bin Ladin and he would always be violent, and I doubt there's anything we could do--they've been at war so long I don't think they ever could be at peace. Off on a tangent, it occurred to me that maybe we're not going after bin Ladin hard because we might be letting nature take its course. The average life span of someone who's on dialysis for end-stage kidney failure is about a year or so. If he is on dialysis, he's very hampered in what he can do (you have to do the treatment several times a week for several hours each time). It's less risk to our soldiers and he doesn't die a martyr if he dies in bed from kidney failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth InSidious Posted June 11, 2006 Share Posted June 11, 2006 Hmmm. Now If I remember correctly Doc, you were one the more religious members of AHTO. The way you are speaking isnt very Christian at all... Didnt Jesus say "Love your enemy" ?? Very true. While I'm not excusing disobeying it (its one of Jesus' most important commandments, IMO), it is very difficult to do. Violence is abhorrent, under any banner, and violence in retirbution for violence solves nought save for feeding a base human desire. Indeed. As a muslim myself, I am often annoyed by the "eye for an eye" association people seem to make with Islam. As with many things, braindead fundamentalists have taken the words of the Kuran and twisted them to suit their own warped agenda. 95% of the Kuran is the old testament, so it can contain some very absolute statements. Whether they are applicable in a very literal sense is highly questionable. Jesus made some fairly absolute statements, too. He did say "love your enemy", but He also said "I bring you not peace but a sword". IMO, all religious texts can be misinterpreted and twisted, and those who do it frequently end up giving those who are quiet, peaceful, devout members of their religion a bad name alongside them. Im not celebrating this man's death. If anything, in the eyes of his followers - it has made him a martyr, which would have the exact opposite effect as far as reducing violence is concerned. Also, it is another significant step away from any action to decipher and address the underlying causes of this massive divide that has formed between various peoples of these(very similar) faiths. I often wonder if its not so much faith as plain old politics. While I'm not trying to be rude, a lot of extremists come from poor countries, often with dictatorial or semi-dictatorial governments. And its an age-old tactic to distract people from how crap life is at home by conjuring up something outside for people to hate and fear. As I noted in the equivalent thread at the Cantina - Dealing with Terrorism does not simply involve killing the leaders of any current faction. He will simply be replaced by another. But of course, *some* Western Leaders seem to think it isnt a very deeply seeded global problem, but moreso a game of cards. Getting rid of Saddam, Osama etc wont eliminate the danger at all, just alter face of who's in charge. Im not in any way justifying the actions of these murderous idiots, and they have engendered much negativity to peace loving muslims around the world(myself included) - but the issue remains, until there is understanding at a spiritual level and co-operation at a developmental and infrastructure level, the gap between the ideologies and their communities will further increase. Having worked with Islamic kids in Indonesia and the Phillipines I can see the potential for kids to be brainwashed by fundamental groups. Growing up in poverty with poor nutrition, no healthcare and little or no education makes them easily swayed. All in all, a sad state of affairs, and a very dark time for a world where we would all expect to be more enlightened and tolerant mtfbwya Not just Islam, even. These terrorists have brought a bad name to all religions, I've often found. Britain is supposedly very tolerant, but I've found a lot of anti-Papist sentiment in this country in recent years, and I can't help but wonder if its connected to some of the terrorist actions taken in recent years. I agree - we need to help these countries and these people NOW. And it's no use just dumping aid, either - we've seen that in Africa - we need to actually help these countries help themselves, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HerbieZ Posted June 11, 2006 Share Posted June 11, 2006 Hmm although im not usually one to say this, i think we should stick to the Zaqawi death thing now, before we see Star Wars Kotor: A Forum Divided. Religeon tends to quickly put the kybosh on any thread discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Doctor Posted June 11, 2006 Author Share Posted June 11, 2006 ^ As long as we can all refrain from being jackasses, we'll be fine. @Astro: Even the most religious of men has difficulties controlling his hatred. This man and those like him go against everything Christ and Muhammad stood for. He preached peace - they murder ruthlessly. He preached kindness - they beheaded people on camera. He preached compassion - they had none. They preached equality - they capture North American and European civilians and hold them hostage. Al-Qaeda are not the servants of Allah, as they claim to be, but the slaves of the Devil. Which, incidentally, reminds me of a quote from, you guessed it, Mahatma Gandhi: "{...}does not represent the spirit of God but the spirit of Satan. And Satan’s successes are the greatest when he appears with the name of God on his lips." They may beleive they are acting in the name of God, but they are being deceived by his weaker counterpart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astrotoy7 Posted June 11, 2006 Share Posted June 11, 2006 before this thread starts to gets infused with any more religioso or macho bluster... I'd like to take 2 secs to remind everyone that theyre in a forum created about/for video games based on space fantasy films Threads about terrorists become inextricably linked with religious discussion.... and they can sometimes lead to unhappiness (although ahtonauts are usually very sensible I must admit) please dont let this happen mtfbwya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HerbieZ Posted June 11, 2006 Share Posted June 11, 2006 I was reading the (although ahtonauts are usually very sensible I must admit) part, then you did the picture. I wee'd slightly. before this thread starts to gets infused with any more religioso or macho bluster... I'd like to take 2 secs to remind everyone that theyre in a forum created about/for video games based on space fantasy films Threads about terrorists become inextricably linked with religious discussion.... and they can sometimes lead to unhappiness (although ahtonauts are usually very sensible I must admit) please dont let this happen mtfbwya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 The way you are speaking isnt very Christian at all... Didnt Jesus say "Love your enemy" ??I thought it was "Don't be gay." Come to think of it, what is if your emeny is a man, and you are a man? Oh dear... Violence is abhorrent, under any banner, and violence in retirbution for violence solves nought save for feeding a base human desire. *Lifts head up from plate* Whu? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astrotoy7 Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 I thought it was "Don't be gay." Come to think of it, what is if your emeny is a man, and you are a man? Whu? Primeski, this thread already has the volatile element of religious discussion in it.....you had to add that as well (you powerfully hunky handsome Canadian man, you) mtfbwya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jae Onasi Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 Recipe for Disaster: 1 ton politics 1 ton religion 1 pound race relations 1 pint (or half liter, your choice) class relations (labor vs. management) 500 cc of abortion (pro or con, your choice) 1/8 cup of death penalty debate a dab of discussion on homosexuality a dab of discussion on social promotion in education (may substitute: sex ed and when to start teaching the subject, opt-out clauses, or if it should be left entirely to parents) a pinch of discussion on corporal punishment in parenting Mix together and shake well. If you survive the explosion, it'll be fascinating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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