100% Completion

[Feagildin]

I think it's time the developers learned how to accomplish this. I can't stand having an open quest that I already completed. It drives me nuts. Almost as nuts as having both Goto and HK talk about a factory for the HK-50s and then not be able to find it, or Mandalore being on a quest to gather the clans and not get any experience or anything else for helping. Essentially, I really hope Obsidian finishes making any future games before selling them, even at the cost of waiting another year. (More testing and correction might be an idea, as well.) Opinions anyone?

[T.Nova]

Well if theres a K3 in development, I'd be under the assumption that theres alot ot time & effort being put into it (possibly a new engine?). Don't forget K2 was released only about a single year after KOTOR, and I think just having a different developer do it as well could have put a dent in development. I would hope that a K3 would be a joint venture between Bioware & Obsidian, that could be interesting imo.

[Inyri]

I doubt Bioware would do K3. They shoved both KotOR2 and NWN2 on Obsidian (who did a darn fine job, given the restrictions LucasArts put on them). They simply didn't want to do KotOR2, so I don't see why they would want to do KotOR3. I'm just following logic here, though.

[milo]

I would hope that a K3 would be a joint venture between Bioware & Obsidian, that could be interesting imo.

Of course, there's about a one in a million chance of that happening.

[RedHawke]

Some tidbits to keep in mind when discussing this kind of topic...

• Obsidian Entertainment has stated that they 'bit off more than they could chew' with some of their aspirations for TSL, especially within the limited timetable specified by LucasArts from the beginning. They thought they could do a bunch of things that they ultimately could not.
  
• LucasArts was ultimately respinsible for all the Q&A Testing, and this what was 'cut' to produce the game by the Holiday season.
  
• Obsidian delivered quite a finished product, even with the lack of Q&A Testing, despite some of the cleaning that needed to be done (Like Bioware was able to do for KotOR I), the game is quite playable, and most all of the quests able to be completed. A testement to their skills IMHO.
  

[Prime]

• Obsidian delivered quite a finished product, even with the lack of Q&A Testing, despite some of the cleaning that needed to be done (Like Bioware was able to do for KotOR I), the game is quite playable, and most all of the quests able to be completed. A testement to their skills IMHO.
  

Very true. Often I think TSL gets bashed too much for incompleteness around here. It wasn't that unfinished, and it is still a great game.

[Darth InSidious]

It wasn't that finished, either, and the ending makes virtually no sense on your first and second playthroughs.

[The Doctor]

^ That's the beauty of the game, IMHO - you have to play it more than once to fully understand it.

[igyman]

I still prefer Bioware over Obsidian though and I hope that, if there ever gets to be a KoTOR 3, Bioware will be the one to make it.

[HerbieZ]

Some tidbits to keep in mind when discussing this kind of topic...

• Obsidian delivered quite a finished product, even with the lack of Q&A Testing, despite some of the cleaning that needed to be done (Like Bioware was able to do for KotOR I), the game is quite playable, and most all of the quests able to be completed. A testement to their skills IMHO.
  

 

Too true.

[Lantzen]

Think Kotor2 is a great game, and i can just image what it would been with no deadline, most of the bugs that have happend to people have never happend to me, so i guess im lucky. The most sad part is the ending and HK-47 factory, HK telling that we can track the HK-50 when it wont lead anywhere:(

 

It would be great if Obsidian and Bioware could do Kotor3 togheter, but that won't happend, but i dunno about who i would prefere to do Kotor3, think both Obsidian and Bioware is great.

[stoffe]

Think Kotor2 is a great game, and i can just image what it would been with no deadline

 

It would probably have been unfinished and not yet released. Deadlines do exist for a reason, after all.

 

I think this is a good case of "ignorance is bliss". If people didn't know what had been cut, they wouldn't know what they were missing out on, and thus wouldn't complain as much. In my opinion the game was good overall, though the ending did come off a bit odd. It doesn't bother me though when not everything is completely spelled out and bashed over the player's forhead. Some mysteries and thinking for oneself is not always entirely a bad thing. Neither am I bothered by NPCs talking about things you never encounter in the game. It just shows that the world isn't intended to revolve around your character, and that they don't need to get involved in everything that happens in the universe.

 

I would imagine that the lesson Obsidian learned from K2:TSL was to completely obliterate any and all traces of unfinished or cut content from further products. Leave nothing to be discovered and complained about.

 

It would be great if Obsidian and Bioware could do Kotor3 togheter, but that won't happend

 

That is probably quite unlikely to happen. It seems that Bioware is more happy to produce their own products from scatch and not use worlds or franchises licensed from others. Gives them greater control of their own products and won't force them to lock horns with some publisher of questionable competence, bumbling their way towards bankruptcy (NWN/Interplay comes to mind...)

[The Source]

Some tidbits to keep in mind when discussing this kind of topic...

• Obsidian Entertainment has stated that they 'bit off more than they could chew' with some of their aspirations for TSL, especially within the limited timetable specified by LucasArts from the beginning. They thought they could do a bunch of things that they ultimately could not.
  
• LucasArts was ultimately respinsible for all the Q&A Testing, and this what was 'cut' to produce the game by the Holiday season.
  
• Obsidian delivered quite a finished product, even with the lack of Q&A Testing, despite some of the cleaning that needed to be done (Like Bioware was able to do for KotOR I), the game is quite playable, and most all of the quests able to be completed. A testement to their skills IMHO.
  

Very true.

 

I consider this to be Obsidian's learning esperience as a first time company. After reading up on their next project, NWN2, I can honestly say that they are learning. Besides the choppy cleanup job, I am very impressed about the graphics upgrade, influence addition, and several new features. I have been won over in their expereiment.

 

If everything fell into place right, we should not have know about any cut content. I give them an A-/B+ for their effort. I can see myself buying another RPG from them in the future.

 

Overall, I think that the 'cut' content is not really important. Yeah, it would be cool to see it. At the end of the day, they produced some interesting and new features. They also upgraded KotOR I's design further.

 

I think what drove people crazy was that they found the 'cut' content. I don't think this game was intended to be an ESB.

 

The game is complete. They only needed to manage enough time to stitch up loose ends.

[RedHawke]

It wasn't that finished, either, and the ending makes virtually no sense on your first and second playthroughs.

This is a statement of the kind of player who has to have things spoon-fed to you for you to enjoy it. No offense, but I had no troubles with the game or the story, of course I actually listen to as much dialogue as I can and do everything I can when I play an RPG.

 

Sorry, but I see a complete product.

 

I don't think this game was intended to be an ESB.

I honestly do believe it is an ESB... as that is the feeling I got at the end of my first playthrough, and every one afterward.

[The Source]

Maybe you are right. I can see the Revan and Exile story being the cliffhanger. I just thought that maybe they wanted it to be complete, but accidently didn't stitch certain plot line. Do you think that people may have missed some of the ending by skipping Kreia's offer of prophecy?

 

It did feel like a 'what is missing' ending. I think that is one of the reasons why people are fascinated by the game. The possibility for more.

[Davinq]

Nah, I just think (and hope and pray) that all these gaps in the storyline will be filled in in K3. Maybe the HK50 Factory will be in the game, and maybe some extra plotline will result of regathering the Mandalorian clans. Perhaps we might even be able to witness firsthand the fates of each character in the TSL from Kreia's fortune telling.

 

Cheers

[RedHawke]

Do you think that people may have missed some of the ending by skipping Kreia's offer of prophecy?

Absolutely... I knew it when I reached the end the first time... I skipped most of that dialog with Kreia and was granted the ending and immediately went... WTF!!!

 

Then I remembered the kind of game TSL was, it is a stark contrast to KotOR and its big cinematic ending, so I reloaded the game defeated Kreia again and talked her behind off... the ending just clicked. ESB didn't end with much fanfare either... as a matter of fact I believe it very much indicates the intention to make a sequel.

 

KotOR was like playing an interactive move, while TSL was very much a throwback to the older purely dialog driven games. Either game style was fine with me, but some of the younger button-mashing generation will definately have issues with the older style of dialog driven games... some can adjust and some wont.

[Bob Lion54]

I think the feeling the game is incomplete mostly has to do with the ending. Its more than the lack of an end movie, but I think thats a part of it.

 

Even if they would have shown something simple like the Exile piloting the Hawk and HK saying something like "Question: Well master, where are we going now? I hope I can kill many meatbags." Then maybe showing a thoughful closeup of the Exile before cutting to the ship flying off, it might have helped the feeling of incompletness. I don't know. Just a theory.

 

After you kill Malak in K1, you get an end movie. End movies are great because they give you a second to sit back and feel like you accomplished something. Its also a bit of closure. You feel like you are done. With K2, nothing. You kill Kreia then credits... It just kinda leaves you empty.

[RedHawke]

After you kill Malak in K1, you get an end movie. End movies are great because they give you a second to sit back and feel like you accomplished something. Its also a bit of closure. You feel like you are done. With K2, nothing. You kill Kreia then credits... It just kinda leaves you empty.

You just proved my above point Bob about some people not getting the style of the game, the ending was not cut and was always intended to be the dialog with Kreia... even if we gave OE 5 additional years to polish the game off.

 

There was never a cinematic ending planned, it isn't that type of game to have one. OE made a different style game from the first KotOR, much in the same way ESB was different from ANH. ANH ended with a big 'cinematic' ending, so did KotOR I, then ESB gives us a darker and more moody story, and a decidedly different ending to the first movie, the same with TSL.

[Bob Lion54]

^^^

Well, yea. It's not so much that I'm saying the ending wasn't complete. Its more a phycological thing.

 

Since the game is often compared to ESB, lets look at the endings.

 

K2- Kriea is defeated. She is still alive, but know you will win. She decides she will answer you questions. You talk to her and get the whole story. She dies. The end.

 

ESB- Vader and Luke fight. Luke is wounded but manages to fall through the garbage shoot. The Falcon rescue him. (See, in the K2 comparison, the movie would end here.) Lando drops Luke and Leia off at a medical ship. You see his new hand being fitted and he talks to Leia. (Its a short scene, but you know the movie is over. You are already reflecting on the movie. In K2 while you talk to Kriea, you are still actively playing. There is no time to reflect before the credits. Just BAM! The End!)

 

Its a small thing, but I think it is a factor.

[RedHawke]

In K2 while you talk to Kriea, you are still actively playing. There is no time to reflect before the credits. Just BAM! The End!)

Weather you are "actively playing" matters not, an ending can be anything in an RPG. You have plenty of time to "reflect" later on. There is no "BAM! The End!" either as we do have small and appropriate cinematics at the end of TSL.

 

As I stated earlier, some will definately have issues with the older style of dialog driven games and a dialog-based ending.

 

Edit: This isn't saying you don't have a point with your arguments Bob, as I do agree with some of what you have said, but the ending just wasn't a letdown for me, I also realise I am likely in the minority on this one.

[Lantzen]

There was plan that the Exile female left with Atton, and he ask where they were going

[Darth InSidious]

Absolutely... I knew it when I reached the end the first time... I skipped most of that dialog with Kreia and was granted the ending and immediately went... WTF!!!

 

That sounds like the reaction of a player who needs everything spoon-fed to them and rushes through dialogue.

 

No offense.

[Emperor Devon]

ESB- Vader and Luke fight. Luke is wounded but manages to fall through the garbage shoot. The Falcon rescue him. (See, in the K2 comparison, the movie would end here.)

 

Not quite... In ESB, the Falcon drops Luke off on a rebel ship and shows him gazing out at the galaxy, with a sense that there are greater challenges down the road for him. In TSL, Kreia dies, and the Ebon Hawk flies off towards the Unknown Regions to fight the True Sith, who are more powerful than the false ones, and gives the sense of something greater. Those two endings seem very similar and very complete to me.

 

Lando drops Luke and Leia off at a medical ship. You see his new hand being fitted and he talks to Leia. (Its a short scene, but you know the movie is over. You are already reflecting on the movie. In K2 while you talk to Kriea, you are still actively playing. There is no time to reflect before the credits. Just BAM! The End!)

 

There's the scene where the Ebon Hawk flies off, but that is short. I never thought that was an issue, though, since the credits are the best time to reflect on the game.

 

What I don't get is why people think the endings for TSL are so incomplete and awful. Both endings for the game are very fitting for the situation, and there's no logical alternative. Would a more satisfying ending have been showing legions of Sith marching around while the Exile watches them from a high up balcony, or showing crowds of people hailing the Exile as a hero if he/she was good? Probably, but it wouldn't have been as fitting. The Exile had to go into the Unknown Regions to help Revan, so there was no time for anything like that. An ending like that would have been more flashy, but bad for the story. I don't see how a lack of glamor should make the ending for TSL worse than KotOR's.

[T.Nova]

I doubt Bioware would do K3. They shoved both KotOR2 and NWN2 on Obsidian (who did a darn fine job, given the restrictions LucasArts put on them). They simply didn't want to do KotOR2, so I don't see why they would want to do KotOR3. I'm just following logic here, though.

 

I was under the impression that Bioware felt they were occupied developing Jade Empire & one of the NWN expansions. So they recommended Obsidian to develop the next game.

 

---

 

To jump into this arguement, I did enjoy the game until the end. The ending was badly staged imo, & everything came about too quick. Right after the Jedi Masters on Dantoonie are killed by Kreia, your headed toward the Ravanger. When I first came aboard the Ravanger, I thought to myself "I can't possibly be fighting Nihilus now, it feels too early" & snap, I kill him. Personally I never felt motivated to actually put some closure on Darth Nihilus. There was little backstory to him, & you only confront him this time alone. What does Nihilus do other than send Visas after you? You hear all this hype about him feeding on the force, more presence than flesh. You confront him, you kill him, its done.

 

Suddenly your off to Malachor V where you crash land on the planet. Your body somehow gets projected from the Ebon Hawk onto the ground & from there you're to find Trayus Academy. Now Redhawke any "button-masher" would have gotten their fill here. Theres nothing but a load of enemies to fight, those beasts (forgot their names) Sith Marauders, a second fight seqeunce between Hanharr & Mira, & two boss battles with Darth Sion & Darth Traya. To be honest with you I had trouble trying to get through this part, I ran out of medpacs real quick trying to kill these groups of 3 or more marauders. Soon I'm sitting behind the door waiting 5 minutes for my health to recover with the regenaration feature.

 

Imho there wasn't enough dialogue towards the end. I don't ever get much of a chance to speak with my other party members after the Ravenger, I defeat the primary villans & get a fortune cookie from Kreia, then a brief cutscene of the Ebon Hawk flying into space. It all left an unsatisfying taste in my mouth.