The Christian Thread!

[Emperor Devon]

He could put his unlimited power into someone and make them supremely happy the rest of their lives. But what if that meant others would experience a much worse life as a result?

 

Are you saying that for every person saved, one life will be ruined? Probably not, so we can both agree that the benefit would outweight the cost.

 

Not understanding God is an argument I've heard often, but I don't think it can explain this.

 

How much more earthly can you get than humanity and suffering?

 

Religious books often deal with mysticism and the supernatural - I'm reading something about capitalism right now.

 

Well, thank God I'm not married to _him_.

 

Ayn Rand's a woman, actually. I don't think she's have wanted to marry you either.

 

Crow (or maybe Tom Servo) quips, "Oh, yeah, like with wars, famine, and poverty, God really cares about your little heist."

 

Good one.

 

Actually, from a Christian viewpoint, He does care about the little things. There's a verse that says he knows the number of hairs on our heads. I don't even know how many hairs I have on my head.

 

I'd consider counting people's hairs a fairly trivial thing to do with unlimited power.

 

What if a minimal suffering now means not experiencing greater suffering down the road? {snip}

 

That's different. I don't think anything can be worse than death.

 

This is also an assumption based on the idea that in order for God to be Good, God must make us all happy.

 

Making people happy and stopping death are two seperate matters.

 

Different kind of free will. I'm talking about the free will to make the decision to do right or wrong, to make the decision to accept or reject faith/God, the ethical/spiritual free will.

 

Nope. If God gave us totally free will, that would factor into it.

 

Well, making someone a tad less free is kind of like making a woman a tad less pregnant. You're either free or not.

 

Hmm, I think freedom is a tad more grey than that. I'd say that people in our country are very free, though we'd be even moreso if the world was in a state of anarchy. Or there's how a socialist government is a bit less free than ours, but much moreso than Stalinist Russia.

 

Removing evil means removing all _choice_ to do evil as well.

 

Which is a very good thing.

 

It means that love would then be compelled--those who would ordinarily choose evil

 

Then why not let people choose to believe in God or not, but forbid them from needlessly harming others?

 

(which all of us do to some degree or another--you should have seen my sisters and me flame each other when we were little--whew!)

 

Hmm, I might have an idea of that.

 

Which far end of evil would you like to remove?

 

There would be nothing wrong in removing the capability to murder.

 

{snip} The first barrel is more contaminated, but both are still raw sewage just the same.

 

...and one is still far better than the other.

 

I don't know for certain that they get that option, but I'd like to think that they do.

 

This goes against the rest of your post. If someone gets to spend eternity with God, 80 years of nastiness is nothing compared to 100k years of bliss.

 

Or her naughty jokes, but that's another story.

 

I wouldn't mind hearing some.

 

and they're the ones who've missed out the most on the loving relationship.

 

That doesn't agree with your previous statement, though.

 

I don't believe that case is ever addressed in the Bible, though the implication seems to be that after the final judgment, we're done, for good or ill. Since the Bible is about our relationship with God in the present life, it may not be mentioned because it's not salient to what we need during our lives.

 

If the Bible was only concerned with life, there would be no mention at all about the afterlife.

 

What do you think of that yourself, then?

 

Oh, Lordy.

 

She's a funny character.

[Jae Onasi]

Seen on a church sign today and I had a little chuckle over it:

 

"Without God, there'd be no atheism."

 

Pithy quote by Ben Franklin:

 

"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."

 

The rest I'll address in the next day or 2 or 3.

[Emperor Devon]

 

I'm not surprised about addressing it later. It must be something like 12:30 where you live.

[Anakins_Angel]

I am a Chriatian and I am proud of it. and I am not trying to critisize anyone else on here or anything but for you who are not Christian or Baptist or don't believe in the one true God I am truly worried about you and will pray for you all because Heaven and hell are real places you will end up in one of the two when you die and stay there for an eternity. heaven is a peaceful place where there will be no more sicknesess or terrible aacts but in hell all you have is terrible acts you will be totured until you could die but you are unable to die by demonds. God loves you all and he made hell for satan and his followers the fallen angels not for people he always intended for us to be with him but we have to believe in him and trust him and love him in order to be with him forever. he doesn't want you to go to hell but it is your own choice. He died for you! He loves you!

[SkinWalker]

I have but one question for you: how do you know?

[Joetheeskimo]

Though I'm a Christian, Anakins_Angel, I wish you had not posted that. Those statements are already on the table and don't help.

[Anakins_Angel]

i know it is just important to me i hate to see that so many people dont believe

[TK-8252]

i know it is just important to me i hate to see that so many people dont believe

 

Some people, including myself, choose to believe only in things that are logical, rational, make sense, have evidence, etc.

 

Religion would not be described as any of the above.

[Joetheeskimo]

Right, but there are sometimes happenings or circumstances that can't be explained by any human standards, though such occurrences are less frequent today...

[TK-8252]

Right, but there are sometimes happenings or circumstances that can't be explained by any human standards, though such occurrences are less frequent today...

 

So then why make up something with no evidence to explain it? Why not just accept that we can't know everything, and stop pretending like we can if we just make up the answers?

[Samnmax221]

Seen on a church sign today and I had a little chuckle over it:

 

"Without God, there'd be no atheism."

 

Pithy quote by Ben Franklin:

Uh Jae, Ben Franklin was a Deist in his later wiser years. So were Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, Cornelius Harnett, Gouverneur Morris, Hugh Williamson, James Wilson, and James Madison.

[Jae Onasi]

Uh Jae, Ben Franklin was a Deist in his later wiser years. So were Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, Cornelius Harnett, Gouverneur Morris, Hugh Williamson, James Wilson, and James Madison.

 

I know--I just thought the quote was amusing.

[Sir Phobos]

Catholic. But I live a pretty secular lifestyle. I'm not pushy so I expect the same out of everyone else.

[CLONECOMMANDER501]

Im Roman Catholic

[jedispy]

I'm a Christian, however I do not hold to any specific denomination. I grew up as a Lutheran in a strong Catholic community in Minnesota. I do not mean to offend any of my Catholic Christian brothers here, however I saw some nasty rivalry between the protestants (Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists, etc...) and the Catholics. It really turned me off to religion for a while in my life.

 

Then I decided that I no longer wanted to live in the shallow views of the American Midwest. So I went to New Zealand as a foreign exchange student. There I happened to stay with a Christian family that was really cool. Christianity in other countries is quire different than the atmosphere I grew up in. For example in New Zealand I attended a Baptist church. What I witnessed in NZ is that if you are a "religious" Christian (a.k.a. practicing your faith) you're somewhat looked down on. I saw many Christian friends deal with real opposition. No it wasn't anything dramatic like the ancient Romans feeding Christians to lions in the days of Nero, but it was still odd to see. At the same time I gained Jewish and Muslim friends. I witnessed how other people in this world live and I learned from it.

 

This was when I discovered Jesus for myself. (Pardon my Church lingo) I finally was "born again." No longer was I simply accepting the religion of my parents. Rather it was something that was my own belief and my own convictions.

 

The coolest things I learned about real Christianity is:

1. Nowhere in the Bible does it actually say that Christians may hate Jews, Muslims, atheists, gays, evolutionists (or any field of science for that matter), or anyone at all. In fact it specifically says that if you hate your neighbor, then you are likely not really saved (I am paraphrasing of course).
   
2. The term "christian" was actually coined by non-Christians and was meant as a derogatory term.
   
3. The first Christians were all Jews. It was seen as another sect of Judaism, like the Pharisees, Saducees, Zealots, and Essenes. The first Christians met in synagogues and the Jewish temple (prior to the destruction by the Romans in 70 AD).
   
4. Real Christianity is actually deeply rooted in Judaism. The concept of Jesus as king actually refers to his ancestor David, the second king of Israel. The concept of sacrifice isn't the generic sense that we might think today, but instead refers to the system of atonement as written in the Torah. In order for an Israelite's sins to be forgiven he must repent and sacrifice an animal as described in the Torah. Once per year, during Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement) the High Priest of Israel would offer a sacrifice on behalf of the whole nation of Israel. On this one day the High Priest was allowed to enter the most holy place of the temple (normally considered too sacred for anyone to enter any other time of the year) and offer the sacrifice and prayer. Christians believe that Jesus was the one final sacrifice for atonement of sins. He fulfilled the role of High Priest and currently lives in the most holy place, branching the gap between humans and God.
   
5. As stated above the Bible is actually NOT anti-science. Certainly there may be Christians who are anti-science, but the Bible is not. There is of course much division between the two camps as to the interpretation of the first chapter of Genesis. I believe that there can be a happy medium between Intelligent Design (I hate the term Creationism) and Evolution. There are many wonderful things that we've learned through the study of the theory of Evolution. You can't objectively deny that. However it is my opinion that there are many things that Evolution fails to explain. In my opinion (which is merely an opinion, nothing more) the scientific evidence is truly empirical, but the conclusions are often speculative at best. (I really don't feel like getting into the details since this isn't really the topic of this thread). Personally I hold on to the classic Christian belief of the 6 day 24 hour creation. Does that mean I feel that evolutionary & geological history theories are 100% false? No I don't. There is such an overwhelming amount of empirical evidence for modern scientific theories that you can't call yourself an objective person, yet ignore it. I encourage scientists to pursue their theories. Without science we wouldn't have medicine, real life space exploration, the light bulb, forensics, automobiles, or the Internet.
    
   Getting back to my point, nowhere in the Bible does it say "thou shalt not explore scientific theories." In fact the Bible encourages objective thinking when it comes to supernatural claims (1 John 4:1). Look at the history of scientific discovery. Many important scientific theories and discoveries were made by Christians. Galileo, Newton, Copernicus, Kepler, Descartes, Pascal, Mendel, Kelvin, etc.... Yes there were times when the status quo of Christianity challenged science and called it heresy. However that is a human failure, not a Biblical one (same goes with the practice of slavery in early America. Although there were Christians that supported it, the practice was not Biblical).
   
6. The belief that one group of humans is better than anyone else is strictly non-Biblical, and therefore anti-Christian. The Bible says that in Christ there is no male or female, Jew or Gentile, slave or free (the term "slave" meant something different when the New Testament was written). Basically it means that in Jesus, all people are equal.

Sorry for getting long winded. I call myself a Christian. When people want me to be more specific I'll tell them I'm evangelical. While I personally believe that my system of beliefs is the long correct one, by no means do I feel that I am better than anyone else. I have many non-Christian friends that I hang out with. I have several gay friends, and although I do not agree with their lifestyle, I can accept them for who they are without trying to make them change (again not an argument that I wish to get into). Although I believe that Buddhism, Hinduism, modern Judaism, Islam, and others are not correct, I can respect their beliefs and their customs. I invite other people to believe as I do, but you'll never see me shoving a Bible down anyone else's throat, or going door to door to harrass people for Jesus. I don't know of a single person who was ever converted to Christianity by seeing a T-shirt that reads "Turn or Burn!!"

Boy doesn't that just inspire you?

[Nedak]

Here's a good quote...

 

Fundamentalist Christianity - fascinating. These people actually believe that the the world is 12,000 years old. Swear to God. Based on what? I asked them.

 

"Well we looked at all the people in the Bible and we added 'em up all the way back to Adam and Eve, their ages: 12,000 years."

 

Well how f******* scientific, okay. I didn't know that you'd gone to so much trouble. That's good. You believe the world's 12,000 years old?

 

"That's right."

 

Okay, I got one word to ask you, a one word question, ready?

 

"Uh-huh."

 

Dinosaurs.

 

You know the world is 12,000 years old and dinosaurs existed, they existed in that time, you'd think it would have been mentioned in the f***** Bible at some point.

 

"And lo Jesus and the disciples walked to Nazareth. But the trail was blocked by a giant brontosaurus... with a splinter in his paw. And O the disciples did run a shriekin': 'What a big ****ing lizard, Lord!' But Jesus was unafraid and he took the splinter from the brontosaurus's paw and the big lizard became his friend.

 

"And Jesus sent him to Scotland where he lived in a loch for O so many years inviting thousands of American tourists to bring their fat f****** families and their fat dollar bills.

 

"And oh Scotland did praise the Lord. Thank you Lord, thank you Lord. Thank you Lord."

[Jae Onasi]

Those fundamentalists who are strict creationists and believe the world is about 6,000 years old believe the dinosaurs got wiped out in the Flood.

 

The Bible is about God's relationship with humans, and our relationship with other humans, not prehistoric dinosaurs. Why bother mentioning them? They have nothing to do with our relationship with other humans or God. It'd be a waste of space.

[Titanius Anglesmith]

You know the world is 12,000 years old and dinosaurs existed, they existed in that time, you'd think it would have been mentioned in the f***** Bible at some point.

Job 40:15-24, anyone?

 

"Behold, Be'hemoth, which I made as I made you; he eats grass like an ox. Behold, his strength in his loins, and his power in the muscles of his belly. He makes his tail stiff like a cedar; the sinews of his thighs are knit together. His bones are tubes of bronze, his limbs like bars of iron. He is the first of the works of God; let him who made him bring near his sword! For the mountains yield food for him where all the wild beasts play. Under the lotus plants he lies, in the covert of the reeds and in the marsh. For his shade the lotus trees cover him; the willows of the brook surround him. Behold, if the river is turbulent he is not frightened; he is confident though Jordan rushes against his mouth. Can one take him with hooks, or pierce his nose with a snare?"

 

It doesn't mention the names that science has given them, but this behemoth doesn't match the description of any animal I know of, other than a brontosaurus.

[Nedak]

"It doesn't mention the names that science has given them, but this behemoth doesn't match the description of any animal I know of, other than a brontosaurus.

 

I'll do research to tell you what animal that infact is. Also, I would like the scource to where you recieved that bible quote.

 

EDIT: Job 40:15 Possibly the hippopotamus or the elephant

Job 40:17 Possibly trunk

Job 40:24 Or by a water hole

 

 

Those fundamentalists who are strict creationists and believe the world is about 6,000 years old believe the dinosaurs got wiped out in the Flood.

 

One thing wrong with that..... OCEANIC DINOSUARS

[Jae Onasi]

Also, I would like the scource to where you recieved that bible quote.

Uh, the Bible?

Job 40:15-24, anyone?

One thing wrong with that..... WATER DINOSUARS

 

Ever try swimming in a hurricane? A 40 day hurricane? It'd be kind of tough.

[Nedak]

Uh, the Bible?

 

You obviously didn't see that I edited my post.

 

 

Ever try swimming in a hurricane? A 40 day hurricane? It'd be kind of tough.

 

Educate me... So you're telling me that there was a hurricane that was as big as the whole earth, and that the possibility of any prehistoric creature surving is absolutely impossible?

[PoiuyWired]

How About Prehistoric Fish? And Plants?

I mean, we know at least SOME plants survive outside of the ark.

What seperates the prehistoric fish/plants, to the "non-historic" ones?

 

As said. The good book is about relationships with god and not a bunch of detailed stories to be followed.

[Jae Onasi]

You obviously didn't see that I edited my post.

Nope. Just the part before the Job.

 

Educate me... So you're telling me that there was a hurricane that was as big as the whole earth, and that the possibility of any prehistoric creature surving is absolutely impossible?

 

Personally, I have no clue. I wasn't on the boat and it doesn't specify that the storm was a Category 5 hurricane on the Saffir-Simpson scale. I'm just telling you what fundamentalists would say, since I understand their arguments, even if I don't agree with them all. If God can create an entire universe, removing dinosaurs off one piddly planet in the middle of an average galaxy is not going to be too tough for Him. Since it doesn't say what happened to dinosaurs, and behemoth and leviathan aren't specifically defined, and it has zero bearing on life in 2007, I'm not too excited about it.

[Nedak]

As said. The good book is about relationships with god and not a bunch of detailed stories to be followed.

 

Why would you follow the bible at all then? It seems that the 'good book' wants you to believe everything it says. Isn't it plausible that the book is just a big misconception on how people back then viewed how the world worked?

 

l.If God can create an entire universe, removing dinosaurs off one piddly planet in the middle of an average galaxy is not going to be too tough for Him.

 

Which comes to another argument... God created the universe in seven days.... SEVEN DAYS? First of all... Where would you get that number? Second of all... WHAT ARE DAYS?! Wouldn't a day be the EARTH'S rotation on its axis...? AND THE UNIVERSE ISN'T THE EARTH!

 

 

Also, the problem with the 'theory' (yes theory) that God is the all seeing enitity that created all of man kind is this... Who created god? We could continue this arguement back and fourth but there is always that one question.

[Titanius Anglesmith]

Which comes to another argument... God created the universe in seven days.... SEVEN DAYS? First of all... Where would you get that number? Second of all... WHAT ARE DAYS?! Wouldn't a day be the EARTH'S rotation on its axis...? AND THE UNIVERSE ISN'T THE EARTH!

Actually, He created the universe in 6 days, not 7. No one "got that number" from anywhere... except the Bible. It says He created the universe in 6 days; that's not a historian's estimate - it's what the Bible says.

 

And I would assume that it means He took the equivalent of 6 days. He didn't actually wake up in the morning as the sun came up, work till dusk, then go back to sleep till the next morning.