Question About Religion

[Negative Sun]

Gotta admit, I don't get the hostility flung around by you, Negative Sun. Everyone is basically a hypocrite in some fashion or another. You seem to feel hostile toward people you seem to think are judging you somewhow, but have no problem labeling them as fools.

Hostililty flung around by me? Read between the lines, does stingerhs calling me an evil person because I'm not Christian not count as hostility in your book?

 

If you sense hostility from me it is only because I'm sick of most Christians thinking they're the most righteous, smartest people on this planet...Just because I don't believe in God doesn't make me stupid, it doesn't mean I can't decide, I just think there is no such thing as a God, it was invented by man, and even if there was one how would we know? Because someone who was crucified 2000 years ago said so? What actual proof is there of His existance? The Bible? It's not exactly the most reliable source now is it?

[Totenkopf]

Christians should keep their big fat mouths shut cause they're all a bunch of hypocrits, people were slain by hundreds during the inquisition but it was all justfied because they were killing non-believers...

 

The self-defense point is a good one, if it's between me or some dumb motherf***er, I know who I'd root for!

 

And to all you Christians, what if, at the end of your lives you discover that everything you once believed in and stood for ISN'T TRUE, what you gonna do then?

I'd rather believe in nothing and be proved wrong, at least I get to live my life by my own rules and not by the rules written down by some twats two millenia ago...

 

 

Seems apparent that you took the first shot in this thread and stingerhs only replied. Besides, why get all worked up, you no doubt think that people "like stingerhs" are deluded and probably evil intheir own right. I don't know that anyone could realistically say someone who doesn't believe in God is stupid (not in the sense you seem to mean it, ie intellectual capacity). But it has been argued that even smart people do dumb things, the world is full of that, as well as the history books. But don't take from this that I'm saying you're stupid or even misguided. The question of God's existance is ultimately one of faith, not science. And you're quite correct that no one will know (if ever) till the next life, if there really is one, or if the Apocalypse starts now and God comes roaring out of the heavens to smite His enemies (tongue firmly in cheek here). Even Christianity recognizes the importance of faith in the question of God's reality. One of the beatitudes states that blessed are those that believe, yet have never seen. If that's not an aknowledgement of the problems caused by a lack of "scientific proof", not much else is.

[Darth333]

Hostililty flung around by me? Read between the lines, does stingerhs calling me an evil person because I'm not Christian not count as hostility in your book?

 

If you sense hostility from me it is only because I'm sick of most Christians thinking they're the most righteous, smartest people on this planet...Just because I don't believe in God doesn't make me stupid, it doesn't mean I can't decide, I just think there is no such thing as a God, it was invented by man, and even if there was one how would we know? Because someone who was crucified 2000 years ago said so? What actual proof is there of His existance? The Bible? It's not exactly the most reliable source now is it?

Stingerhs never called you anything. I think you're reading too much in between the lines. I have no problems with you agreeing or disagreeing with someone's beliefs but do it in a respectful manner. In other words, change your tone. This is your second warning.

[The Source]

Christians should keep their big fat mouths shut cause they're all a bunch of hypocrits, people were slain by hundreds during the inquisition but it was all justfied because they were killing non-believers...

 

The self-defense point is a good one, if it's between me or some dumb motherf***er, I know who I'd root for!

 

And to all you Christians, what if, at the end of your lives you discover that everything you once believed in and stood for ISN'T TRUE, what you gonna do then?

I'd rather believe in nothing and be proved wrong, at least I get to live my life by my own rules and not by the rules written down by some twats two millenia ago...

"what if, at the end of your lives you discover that everything you once believed in and stood for ISN'T TRUE, what you gonna do then?"

What if it is true, and you are looking from the outside inward?

[RaV™]

Hmm..after the course this thread has taken It might as well shoulda been called Poster Deathmatch volume 1

[The Source]

But the "rules" written down in the Bible are either common sense or total nonsense...

Does not believing in God make me an evil person? I live my life the best I can and I don't answer to anyone or let anyone "guide me", I make my own decisions and stand by them, I have morals and ethics, and it's got nothing to do with religion, like I said, it's just common sense for me to do the right thing...

If God is so just and forgiving, will he deny me passage to Heaven because I never believed in Him? What proof has He ever given me of his existance, let alone help?

I was merely using the example of the inquisition as an example of how twisted "justice" can be...Was it right for them to kill someone because they didn't believe in their God? Is it right for anyone to decide wether another person lives or dies?

Besides self-defense, I see no other reason to take someone's life, and even in self-defense, shooting someone in the leg or shoulder is just as effective as the head or chest, and someone might still live...

"Does not believing in God make me an evil person?"

Nope. The whole ideology of God is freewill. God's door is allways open. It is upto you to find your own salvation.

 

If God is so just and forgiving, will he deny me passage to Heaven because I never believed in Him? What proof has He ever given me of his existance, let alone help?

Actually, if you are not baptised or reborn, you cannot get into heaven. He deosn't need to prove anything, you have to prove that he does not exist. If you are questioning him, you must be questioning if you are worthy. In that case, you are worthy to come to the lord when you are ready. No one is forcing the issue. Only your conscious mind; therefore, you must have some kind of curiosity.

 

"Was it right for them to kill someone because they didn't believe in their God?"

The Crusades were not justified. All religions have their dark moments. Christianity is broken into several factions, which have their own ideology about the interpretation of the Bible. Roman Catholic -to- Born Again Christian. Blamming Christianity as a whole is nieve.

 

"Besides self-defense, I see no other reason to take someone's life, and even in self-defense, shooting someone in the leg or shoulder is just as effective as the head or chest, and someone might still live..."

I would take someone's life in a self-defense senerio. Outside of self-defense, I agree with you, to kill someone in cold blood is wrong.

[Negative Sun]

Stingerhs never called you anything. I think you're reading too much in between the lines. I have no problems with you agreeing or disagreeing with someone's beliefs but do it in a respectful manner. In other words, change your tone. This is your second warning.

Are you meaning to tell me his tone wasn't condescending?

And I never intended anything to be disrespectful, I merely spoke my opinion...

Why is it taken as disrespectful when it's Christianity on the line, but not the other way around?

 

"what if, at the end of your lives you discover that everything you once believed in and stood for ISN'T TRUE, what you gonna do then?"

What if it is true, and you are looking from the outside inward?

Outside inward? Are you speaking in an "Us (believers)" and "Them (Non-believers)" kind of way?

Because that doesn't seem very Christian to me...

[TK-8252]

Gah. Why did this thread have to turn into a debate/history lesson on Christianity when it was just a simple question?

 

Sigh.

 

You all need to come to the Senate with this stuff! We're gettin' bored over there!

[The Source]

Outside inward? Are you speaking in an "Us (believers)" and "Them (Non-believers)" kind of way?

Because that doesn't seem very Christian to me...

People must be confussing the United States with Christianity. They are two seperate entities. It just happens that there are more Christians than anything else in the US. A very big misconsception.

 

Christianity will survive without the US existing.

 

I was refering to people who are looking at Christianity and Jewdaha (sp?) from the outside. The question was asked to Christians, "What if we were believing in something that ends up untrue", I asked, "What if you are looking inward, and it turns out that what we believe ends up being true?"

 

When it comes to God, I don't believe in the "What If.". I know he exists.

[Totenkopf]

These kinds of topics are almost like accidents on the freeway, you know you should move on, but you can't help rubbernecking. Was Stingerhs condescending, or was NS reading TOO MUCH between the lines? In the absence of verbal or phyiscal cues, it's hard to tell. It's usually safest to just work from the premise that the other guy is only trying to express his opinion, however flawed in your own view, w/o looking for insult. Usually when you go looking for insults, you'll find them. But face it NS, you threw down the gauntlet first, and not exactly in a respectful way either. Is it any wonder you then think that Stingerhs was condescending? You think christians are hypocrites and Stingerhs believes that athiests are doomed. Life goes on......

[Prime]

And I never intended anything to be disrespectful, I merely spoke my opinion...

Yes you did. When you say something like:

 

"Christians should keep their big fat mouths shut cause they're all a bunch of hypocrits, people were slain by hundreds during the inquisition but it was all justfied because they were killing non-believers...And to all you Christians, what if, at the end of your lives you discover that everything you once believed in and stood for ISN'T TRUE, what you gonna do then?

I'd rather believe in nothing and be proved wrong, at least I get to live my life by my own rules and not by the rules written down by some twats two millenia ago."

 

That is clearly being disrespectful, and you know it. If you are angry at Christians, fine. But don't come in here and start flaming.

 

Why is it taken as disrespectful when it's Christianity on the line, but not the other way around?

It has everything to do with telling people here to shut their big fat mouths and flaming them for their religious views. You can express your views in a diplomatic manner without going on a rampage.

 

Hostililty flung around by me? Read between the lines, does stingerhs calling me an evil person because I'm not Christian not count as hostility in your book?

You asked, "Does not believing in God make me an evil person?" and stingerhs responded with what the Bible has to say on the matter.

 

In any event, it is case closed. You have been warned about flaming, there is no need to discuss it further in this thread. If you have more to say, you can do so via PM.

 

Now back on topic.

[Jeff]

So if the Pope had said the War in Iraq was justified, would that have made it true?

Technically from a Christian viewpoint yes, because the Pope is infallible in religious matters. But looking from the Christian doctrine it is clear that the war was not a just one.

[Jae Onasi]

Not directed at Negative sun in particular, you're just asking all the tough questions.

 

The 'all have sinned and fall short' thing--none of us is perfect. We've all done something to hurt someone else. We've all told little white lies, screamed at our parents, said nasty things about someone at school, and those are just the minor offenses. The beauty of Christianity is that God takes the ugliness of sin away and decides to have a relationship with us anyway. Does that mean life is all happy hunkey-dorey? No, because by not listening to Him we've managed to screw up the world rather nicely and we get to deal with the consequences of our actions.

 

Like I said before, what has Christ or God ever done for me to believe in them?

 

Spun the galaxies into being. Created the unbelievable phenomena we see in the skies at night. Gave us a planet to live on, air to breathe, food to eat, water to drink, people to love. Gave us bumblebees, which sciences says aren't supposed to be aerodynamic enough to fly. Created tornadoes and snowflakes. Bound atoms together. Wove DNA. Every day takes a tiny little cell, makes it divide, makes those cells specialize into tissues and organs, and grows the miracle that we call a baby. I don't know if you've yet had the opportunity to study embryology like I have, but the fact that we even have babies form at all is so amazing I can hardly wrap my mind around it, it is that complex. Gave us all minds to think so we could even have this debate.

On a less esoteric level, He kept me from getting killed in a car wreck, protected my son through pneumonia and a 107 degree fever without any permanent damage, brought my husband and me together through the most unusual circumstances, and blessed us with 2 amazing children, among the many, many other things both big and small--too many to list here.

 

If I'm evil for not believing in them, what do you call everyone who does believe in them but fall in one of the categories said above? Are they better people because their sins will be forgiven? Don't make me laugh!

 

No. We're not better at all, and if anything, I think religion makes us realize just how wretched we can be as humans and just how badly we all need love.

 

Truly, the purest saint is not really much better in God's eyes than the worst serial killer--evil is evil, sin is sin. God chooses to meet us in our need, not His. We're not doing Him a favor by believing in Him. Christians are not 'better'. If anything, we should be extraordinarily grateful and humble that He sought us out. Thinking that we're somehow better because of faith is the height of arrogance.

 

it's common sense in ANY CIVILIZATION, whether it be Western, Eastern or other, killing someone has always been wrong, stealing something has always been wrong, etc...

 

How should we explain infanticide in Mayan and other cultures? Cannibalism? Throwing Christians to the lions for entertainment in Roman culture? Saddam Hussein's sons going into families and taking young girls to use for their own pleasure? Hitler and Stalin? Some things unfortunately are not common sense in civilization.

 

If the Bible is a solid baseline, what about the Koran? Or the Torah? Are they wrong because they're not Christian?

The Bible makes allowances for this by saying that God reveals himself to people with or without the Bible. If He can make the universe, he can certainly make himself known in whatever way He chooses. The Old testament is based on the Torah, the Koran acknowledges people from both these faiths as some of the prophets in their faith.

 

 

I don't want to be "absolved" of anything, like I said, I don't believe in him, period. I was just wondering that, and you really haven't answered that question have you? WOULD He deny someone passage into Heaven for not believing in Him? Cause if he does, he's not so forgiving is he? And does that not make him a huge sinner, because instead of being the Samaritan, he's just someone who walks by and does nothing at all...

 

Let's look at it this way. Say the guy who killed all those little Amish girls for no reason had not committed suicide. Say he's alive and he stands trial. What should the judge do? Should he be a Good Samaritan and let the man free? Or should he impose a sentence on the man and hold him accountable for his actions? Would you consider it just to let that man free with no punishment or accountability? Would you let that man free to walk the streets and kill some more children? There are clear penalties for breaking the law--and that's not to be mean, it's to hold someone responsible for their actions.

What I hope happens is that those who rejected Him on earth are given a final opportunity to share with Him that is so overwhelming that no one with the tiniest bit of love in their hearts could possibly reject the offer to want to be with Him.

 

Yet again, this so called wisdom of God is nothing but common sense...But the thing is, if God is so wise and the Bible is all you need, why do Christians need the Pope? And Bishops? And Priests?

 

I'm not Catholic, but I imagine Catholics would agree that it's not the Pope that saves you. Nor bishops, nor priests. That's God's purvue, not man's. The Bible says 'believe in God and you'll be saved.' It does not say 'believe-in men and women who wear a mauvey-shade of pinky-russet on Tuesday and eat grasshoppers and honey (or insert person/ritual of your choice) and you'll be saved.'

God chooses to use people for His service, however. Some people are made to be teachers, doctors, nurses, lawyers, homemakers/family managers, or any other profession. Some are gifted in ministering to others in need--when they're sick, hurt, or hungry, and these are the people we need as pastors/priests.

 

Because that's how they feed this religion to the sheep, if you really believe in God and all that, what do you need them for? What else have they got to say? All they do is take money from the little people and build huge churches and cathedrals and make golden chalices...

 

Our church is really quite bare, to be honest, but some love the majesty of the cathedrals. I have to tell you, seeing stained glass windows in a cathedral in France and knowing it was put together sometime in the 1400's just amazed me. For the stained glass workers, it was a way of expressing themselves, and since I have the artistic capacity of a dead amoeba, I'm very grateful for their work. A lot of the opulent items was donated by rich secular patrons throughout history. Sure, we probably could be doing something better with some of it. We could be doing a lot of things better. All we can do is try.

 

If they sold all that stuff they could rebuild three or four developing countries? So why don't they? Is that the Christian thing to do? No it's not, those who have power and money are afraid to lose it, even Christians...

 

Because none of us is perfect, Negative Sun. As long as there are humans, there're going to be bad things happening. All I can do is work on the things God wants me to work on.

 

"what if, at the end of your lives you discover that everything you once believed in and stood for ISN'T TRUE, what you gonna do then?"

What if it is true, and you are looking from the outside inward?

Outside inward? Are you speaking in an "Us (believers)" and "Them (Non-believers)" kind of way?

Because that doesn't seem very Christian to me...

 

If I read Mac right, he's not trying to say 'believer/non-believer' 'us/them' thing. He's asking you to look at your question the other way around.

If I get to the end of my life and I discover everything I believe is not true, i.e. there is no God, I won't know the difference--I'll be dead and buried and I'll contribute some nutrients to the earth and maybe I'll get remembered for a couple generations in my family and that'll be it. I won't have any concept of 'not being alive', so it won't matter to me.

He's asking what would you do if you go through life not believing, and then find yourself facing God. I recognize it's a hypothetical for you since God's a hypothetical, but it's an interesting thought.

 

The Bible? It's not exactly the most reliable source now is it?

 

Actually, as an historical document, it's tremendously reliable. A number of the events that are described in the Bible are backed up by archeaology and other outside/non-religious historical sources. I don't have the sources at my fingertips right now, but I can find them if you're interested.

 

Hmm..after the course this thread has taken It might as well shoulda been called Poster Deathmatch volume 1

Religion can be a very passionate subject, to be sure. I hope you at least got your question answered out of all this.

[CountVerilucus]

I'm agnostic and I follow my own religion...

 

Amen to that Sabretooth, I'm the same way. Was a Catholic but now I follow what I believe in and what I think is right. Not what some 2000 year old book says.

[Emperor Devon]

Another front has opened up in Jae and Devon's little war...

 

The beauty of Christianity is that God takes the ugliness of sin away and decides to have a relationship with us anyway. Does that mean life is all happy hunkey-dorey? No, because by not listening to Him we've managed to screw up the world rather nicely and we get to deal with the consequences of our actions.

 

I would hope you are not implying that everyone is forgiven in the end.

 

Spun the galaxies into being. Created the unbelievable phenomena we see in the skies at night. Gave us a planet to live on, air to breathe, food to eat, water to drink, people to love. Gave us bumblebees,

 

That you must say is a rather biased perspective. People are created by people in a biological process, not God. I could go on about this, but you get the drift.

 

On a less esoteric level, He kept me from getting killed in a car wreck, protected my son through pneumonia and a 107 degree fever without any permanent damage,

 

I don't know the specific details of what happened with you and your son there, but I am inclined to believe it was because of the more physical realities of the universe. Besides, with that logic you'd think he'd save people from being blown to bits in Iraq, or just about anyone who isn't a bad person that's been caught in a life-threatening situation. Is He biased in who He choses to live and die? If He shows merciful treatment for some, He should show it for all.

 

brought my husband and me together through the most unusual circumstances,

 

Unlike in Star Wars, there are coincidences, lucky moments, and everything else here.

 

and blessed us with 2 amazing children,

 

If you had decided not to have kids, would you have had any? Of course not. As someone with an understanding in the medical profession, you should realize that the creation of life is a biological process. I so far have seen no evidence that any mystical powers play a role in it.

 

Truly, the purest saint is not really much better in God's eyes than the worst serial killer

 

So Churchill gets a seat next to Tamerlane up there in the clouds?

 

--evil is evil, sin is sin.

 

Logically, shouldn't that be punished?

 

If anything, we should be extraordinarily grateful and humble that He sought us out. Thinking that we're somehow better because of faith is the height of arrogance.

 

So the reason some people are and are not Christians is because God chose them to be?

 

Throwing Christians to the lions for entertainment in Roman culture?

 

That is easily offset by the great civilization the Romans built.

 

What I hope happens is that those who rejected Him on earth are given a final opportunity to share with Him that is so overwhelming that no one with the tiniest bit of love in their hearts could possibly reject the offer to want to be with Him.

 

So the greatest villains in history can repent on the spot?

[stingerhs]

hmm, i'm starting to find it more and more interesting everyday on these forums. today, i got assigned as a moderator in a new section while getting falsely accused of flaming someone while in what i orginally thought to be a "friendly" debate. me=

 

anyways, something i've felt that needed clarification was to clear up this nonsense about the ideas and teachings of Christianity (or any other type of teaching or idea) being refered to as "hypocrisy". for clarification, the definition:

The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness.

an idea or a teaching cannot hold or possess anything and, thus, cannot be labeled as a form of hypocrisy. however, a person that professes those ideas or teachings but doesn't actually practice or believe in them does fall under that category.

 

there are "Christians" that fall under that category (heck, i meet them every day where i live), but that is more of a result of people being people in an environment that isn't conducive for religious zeal.

[Darth InSidious]

Christians should keep their big fat mouths shut cause they're all a bunch of hypocrits, people were slain by hundreds during the inquisition but it was all justfied because they were killing non-believers...

Hold it right there.

This is untrue. The Spanish Inquisition was involved in a very small number of deaths, and was in fact more lenient than most law courts at the time.

 

What you are basing this on is in all probability based on the histories of Watson, Motley and von Ranke, who were all protestant historians, from countries which were not on good terms with Spain at the time, and who also swallowed almost wholesale the memoirs of Antonio Perez, William of Orange's Apology and the "Advice of the Inquisition", a document supposedly ordering the deaths of every man woman and child in the Netherlands, which was found to be a fake in the early twentieth century, as well as other miscellaneous pieces of Dutch, French and English propaganda.

 

Antonio Perez was a disgraced Spanish statesman, who had been private secretary to Philip II. Perez ordered the death of a man called Juan de Escovedo, and it was proven in court at the time that this was without the knowledge of Philip. Perez was imprisoned, then escaped to Aragon, where he mounted a revolt. Philip tried to have him arrested, but he fled to France, at this time Spain's enemy. Needless to say this man would be more than a little bitter, and certainly not neutral in his point of view. It is at this point that he writes his memoirs, portraying Philip as a cruel, sadistic tyrant, and exaggerating the Inquisition, from an understaffed, underpaid group of clerics trained in law (and therefore understanding of ideas like evidence), who sought to save souls, not burn people.

 

William of Orange wrote his Apology after Philip put a price of 25,000 crowns on the man's head. Dutch propaganda was circulating because they were a protestant country ruled by a catholic foreigner, who seemed eager to put down revolts and to make them convert.

 

The advice of the Inquisition, as I have already said, was proven to be a Dutch forgery.

 

As for hypocrites, I must disagree. Most Christians admit that they are flawed and try to be better people, in accordance with the teachings of Christ, rather than your caricature, which portrays Christians as flawed creations thinking they are perfect.

The self-defense point is a good one, if it's between me or some dumb motherf***er, I know who I'd root for!

Surely at that point it comes down to survival instinct, anyway?

In any case, there's no point martyring yourself unnecessarily.

And to all you Christians, what if, at the end of your lives you discover that everything you once believed in and stood for ISN'T TRUE, what you gonna do then?

Then I'll be wrong. But I'd rather I had lived my life as a positive force in the world and be proved wrong than to be a selfish, unhelpful and greedy and be proven right.

I'd rather believe in nothing and be proved wrong, at least I get to live my life by my own rules and not by the rules written down by some twats two millenia ago...

And what if your rules mean that you cause hundreds, thousands of others to suffer, directly or indirectly, from your actions and inactions, in the long or the short term?

I'd rather live by the rules written down by "some twats two millennia ago" and do good than harm others having lived by my own rules.

 

But the "rules" written down in the Bible are either common sense or total nonsense...

Does not believing in God make me an evil person? I live my life the best I can and I don't answer to anyone or let anyone "guide me", I make my own decisions and stand by them, I have morals and ethics, and it's got nothing to do with religion, like I said, it's just common sense for me to do the right thing...

Then consider yourself a very fortunate person. No, not believing in God doesn't make you evil. Doing evil things does.

If God is so just and forgiving, will he deny me passage to Heaven because I never believed in Him? What proof has He ever given me of his existance, let alone help?

How can you be sure He hasn't? Perhaps you weren't listening, or misinterpreted His message.

I was merely using the example of the inquisition as an example of how twisted "justice" can be...Was it right for them to kill someone because they didn't believe in their God? Is it right for anyone to decide wether another person lives or dies?

Surely that is a question that is asked every day in law-courts throughout the world, and will continue to be asked until the end of human civilisation?

Besides self-defense, I see no other reason to take someone's life, and even in self-defense, shooting someone in the leg or shoulder is just as effective as the head or chest, and someone might still live...

Indeed.

 

But if at the end of it, this person is a mass murderer, willing to kill you, your family and friends, and anyone else who might get in the way, and who won't stop because of a wound, no matter how serious, who will do anything to kill all those people, is it still right to only wound them?

 

So if the Pope had said the War in Iraq was justified, would that have made it true?

That rather depends if it's a theological, philosophical, doctrinal or generally religious matter. Strictly speaking, no, since on war, the Pope does cannot speak ex cathedra. I don't get why Papal infallibility is so misunderstood...

Yet again, this so called wisdom of God is nothing but common sense...But the thing is, if God is so wise and the Bible is all you need, why do Christians need the Pope? And Bishops? And Priests?

Can you make it up Everest without guides? Not easily, I'd wager.

If they sold all that stuff they could rebuild three or four developing countries? So why don't they? Is that the Christian thing to do? No it's not, those who have power and money are afraid to lose it, even Christians...

OK, first of all, it's to the greater glory of God. Secondly, melting down chalices etc would be to destroy priceless works of art. Should we cut up the Mona Lisa too?

Throwing Christians to the lions for entertainment in Roman culture?

That is easily offset by the great civilization the Romans built.

Great civilisation? Surely for a culture to count as a civilisation it must be civilised?

[Negative Sun]

Not directed at Negative sun in particular, you're just asking all the tough questions.

 

The 'all have sinned and fall short' thing--none of us is perfect. We've all done something to hurt someone else. We've all told little white lies, screamed at our parents, said nasty things about someone at school, and those are just the minor offenses. The beauty of Christianity is that God takes the ugliness of sin away and decides to have a relationship with us anyway. Does that mean life is all happy hunkey-dorey? No, because by not listening to Him we've managed to screw up the world rather nicely and we get to deal with the consequences of our actions.

You say "by not listening to him", I say "by not using common sense", same thing really isn't it?

Common sense to me implies that we aim to strive for a better, peaceful world, isn't that what a civilized world or society is all about in the end?

 

Spun the galaxies into being. Created the unbelievable phenomena we see in the skies at night. Gave us a planet to live on, air to breathe, food to eat, water to drink, people to love. Gave us bumblebees, which sciences says aren't supposed to be aerodynamic enough to fly. Created tornadoes and snowflakes. Bound atoms together. Wove DNA. Every day takes a tiny little cell, makes it divide, makes those cells specialize into tissues and organs, and grows the miracle that we call a baby. I don't know if you've yet had the opportunity to study embryology like I have, but the fact that we even have babies form at all is so amazing I can hardly wrap my mind around it, it is that complex. Gave us all minds to think so we could even have this debate.

On a less esoteric level, He kept me from getting killed in a car wreck, protected my son through pneumonia and a 107 degree fever without any permanent damage, brought my husband and me together through the most unusual circumstances, and blessed us with 2 amazing children, among the many, many other things both big and small--too many to list here.

Again, that is what YOU believe, but that doesn't make it true, and is certainly not enough proof for me, there are a lot of other theories of how the universe came to be, and I have a few favorites of my own, but none of them include God...

 

No. We're not better at all, and if anything, I think religion makes us realize just how wretched we can be as humans and just how badly we all need love.

For me, it's not religion that makes me realize that, just my little old brain cells

 

Truly, the purest saint is not really much better in God's eyes than the worst serial killer--evil is evil, sin is sin. God chooses to meet us in our need, not His. We're not doing Him a favor by believing in Him. Christians are not 'better'. If anything, we should be extraordinarily grateful and humble that He sought us out. Thinking that we're somehow better because of faith is the height of arrogance.

I totally agree with you here, all men are equal, and if God really is God, then He should definately back that up...

 

How should we explain infanticide in Mayan and other cultures? Cannibalism? Throwing Christians to the lions for entertainment in Roman culture? Saddam Hussein's sons going into families and taking young girls to use for their own pleasure? Hitler and Stalin? Some things unfortunately are not common sense in civilization.

I agree with you again here *surprised gasp from the others, Negative_Sun agrees with someone!*

Some things indeed are quite sad to see, which is one of the reasons why my faith in God (back when I was raised to believe in Him) never was that strong to begin with, the phrase "God works in mysterious ways" is the dumbest thing I've ever been told to explain His ways...Because it doesn't explain anything and is an easy anwer, migh as well say "I dunno"

 

The Bible makes allowances for this by saying that God reveals himself to people with or without the Bible. If He can make the universe, he can certainly make himself known in whatever way He chooses. The Old testament is based on the Torah, the Koran acknowledges people from both these faiths as some of the prophets in their faith.

I thought the OT was a direct copy of the Torah, or at least parts of it...And if he reveals himself to people with or without the Bible, how can you prove it? How do you know it's Him, beyond faith?

Like Emperor Devon said, there are other ways to explain this, biology being one of them...

 

Let's look at it this way. Say the guy who killed all those little Amish girls for no reason had not committed suicide. Say he's alive and he stands trial. What should the judge do? Should he be a Good Samaritan and let the man free? Or should he impose a sentence on the man and hold him accountable for his actions? Would you consider it just to let that man free with no punishment or accountability? Would you let that man free to walk the streets and kill some more children? There are clear penalties for breaking the law--and that's not to be mean, it's to hold someone responsible for their actions.

What I hope happens is that those who rejected Him on earth are given a final opportunity to share with Him that is so overwhelming that no one with the tiniest bit of love in their hearts could possibly reject the offer to want to be with Him.

That's a rather strange analogy, I was talking about helping someone who is not "like you", you're talking about a murderer...Are we still on the same page here? Or do you mean that someone who doesn't believe in God is a sinner?

Please clarify because I don't really see your point here, sorry...

 

I'm not Catholic, but I imagine Catholics would agree that it's not the Pope that saves you. Nor bishops, nor priests. That's God's purvue, not man's. The Bible says 'believe in God and you'll be saved.' It does not say 'believe-in men and women who wear a mauvey-shade of pinky-russet on Tuesday and eat grasshoppers and honey (or insert person/ritual of your choice) and you'll be saved.'

God chooses to use people for His service, however. Some people are made to be teachers, doctors, nurses, lawyers, homemakers/family managers, or any other profession. Some are gifted in ministering to others in need--when they're sick, hurt, or hungry, and these are the people we need as pastors/priests.

I don't think God chooses people for His service, I think people who choose those professions want help others out of compassion and love, it has nothing to do with God IMO.

 

 

 

Our church is really quite bare, to be honest, but some love the majesty of the cathedrals. I have to tell you, seeing stained glass windows in a cathedral in France and knowing it was put together sometime in the 1400's just amazed me. For the stained glass workers, it was a way of expressing themselves, and since I have the artistic capacity of a dead amoeba, I'm very grateful for their work. A lot of the opulent items was donated by rich secular patrons throughout history. Sure, we probably could be doing something better with some of it. We could be doing a lot of things better. All we can do is try.

Modern churches are less impressive than older ones, which makes me happy, because there is no need to spend all that money on a religious building when it could be spent to feed and shelter the homeless for example...

I do not deny the beauty of them, I've visited the Notre Dame in Paris and it's very impressive to say the least...

Don't get me wrong, it's not just churches that I think are a waste of money, I don't see the need in spending money on football stadiums or other buildings in that genre when with the same money they could build a s***load of houses...but that is a whole other discussion, and I'll leave it to this

 

Because none of us is perfect, Negative Sun. As long as there are humans, there're going to be bad things happening. All I can do is work on the things God wants me to work on.

No one is perfect indeed, and all I can do is be the best person I can, according to my own standards, if I'm happy with that, then I can die a happy man...(Touch wood not too soon lol)

 

If I read Mac right, he's not trying to say 'believer/non-believer' 'us/them' thing. He's asking you to look at your question the other way around.

If I get to the end of my life and I discover everything I believe is not true, i.e. there is no God, I won't know the difference--I'll be dead and buried and I'll contribute some nutrients to the earth and maybe I'll get remembered for a couple generations in my family and that'll be it. I won't have any concept of 'not being alive', so it won't matter to me.

He's asking what would you do if you go through life not believing, and then find yourself facing God. I recognize it's a hypothetical for you since God's a hypothetical, but it's an interesting thought.

Fair enough, I just pose the same question, but from another point of view, I believe there is no God and my life will end when my body dies, but if there actually is a God, will he deny me passage to Heaven merely for not believing in Him? Even if I have lived my life the best I could and helped others wherever I could?

Because if that is true, I do not want to have anything to do with this God...

 

Actually, as an historical document, it's tremendously reliable. A number of the events that are described in the Bible are backed up by archeaology and other outside/non-religious historical sources. I don't have the sources at my fingertips right now, but I can find them if you're interested.

That's true, but what proof is there that Jesus did everything it says he did? Or that all those miracles actually did happen? It all comes down to faith again, and I just don't believe it, period.

 

Religion can be a very passionate subject, to be sure. I hope you at least got your question answered out of all this.

Yes I did, thanks for taking the time to answer them and not avoiding them as most people do when you question their faith or beliefs, I just back up what I believe in, and do it a bit over the top sometimes I admit...

I'm sorry if I came on a bit strong earlier, but as you can see it's a subject I'm passionate about, and I'm used to dealing with idiots and morons...

[stoffe]

This thread is pretty interesting to read. I'm not very religious, but I'm no atheist either. I'm more kind of undecided at the moment, not sure what to believe. Reading this thread has caused a few questions to pop up in my mind though:

 

Why is God universally referred to as He? Wouldn't the presence of a gender indicate there is more than one being of God's species? If there was only one, what purpose would a gender serve? (Interestingly, I vaguely remember reading somewhere that before Judaism formed as a monotheistic religion God/Yahweh was described as having a wife, whose name escapes my mind at the moment.)

 

If you can be forgiven for any crime committed during your life, no matter how vile, by repenting at your death, but not having been a believer during your life is an unforgivable sin that will lead you to "Hell", why is that? What makes this crime so much worse than any other suffering you might have inflicted upon other mortals during your life, since it doesn't affect anyone but yourself and God? Would this not indicate that God has something to gain from being believed in, from being worshipped? And that not believing in God is to somehow deny God that something? I.e. crimes against other humans or animals can be forgiven, but crimes directly affecting God cannot?

 

I also vaguely remember reading somewhere that the concept of a "Hell" as a counterpart to Heaven hasn't been in Christianity from the start, but was added retroactively to the teachings by the Church some time during the first millennia as a means to better control the masses and compel them into submitting themselves to the faith. Is this false, or do anyone with better memory know where that comes from?

[MTV2]

A friend told me once that everyone goes to hell except for the few that go to church everyday, are caring, dont kill, etc. etc. etc.

[Cygnus Q'ol]

Which came first the chicken or the egg?

 

Did God create us and all of his heavenly splendor, set moral guidelines to depict our decisions, give us free will, but punishment for wrong choices?

or,

did we create God to mask our own fears of our solitude in the vastness of the universe?

 

There's no evidence to support either viewpoint. Which is why this question and the one posed earlier cause so much of a ruckus. There are too many variations of religion for one to be right above all others. It's more of what *you* believe and hold true.

 

I believe if more people understood that, then there would be a lot less skepticism, frustration and hatred in the world.

 

...and on this thread.

 

PEACE EVERYBODY!

[Negative Sun]

Hold it right there.

This is untrue. The Spanish Inquisition was involved in a very small number of deaths, and was in fact more lenient than most law courts at the time.

 

What you are basing this on is in all probability based on the histories of Watson, Motley and von Ranke, who were all protestant historians, from countries which were not on good terms with Spain at the time, and who also swallowed almost wholesale the memoirs of Antonio Perez, William of Orange's Apology and the "Advice of the Inquisition", a document supposedly ordering the deaths of every man woman and child in the Netherlands, which was found to be a fake in the early twentieth century, as well as other miscellaneous pieces of Dutch, French and English propaganda.

 

Antonio Perez was a disgraced Spanish statesman, who had been private secretary to Philip II. Perez ordered the death of a man called Juan de Escovedo, and it was proven in court at the time that this was without the knowledge of Philip. Perez was imprisoned, then escaped to Aragon, where he mounted a revolt. Philip tried to have him arrested, but he fled to France, at this time Spain's enemy. Needless to say this man would be more than a little bitter, and certainly not neutral in his point of view. It is at this point that he writes his memoirs, portraying Philip as a cruel, sadistic tyrant, and exaggerating the Inquisition, from an understaffed, underpaid group of clerics trained in law (and therefore understanding of ideas like evidence), who sought to save souls, not burn people.

 

William of Orange wrote his Apology after Philip put a price of 25,000 crowns on the man's head. Dutch propaganda was circulating because they were a protestant country ruled by a catholic foreigner, who seemed eager to put down revolts and to make them convert.

 

The advice of the Inquisition, as I have already said, was proven to be a Dutch forgery.

I was actually talking about the Medieval Inquisition under Pope Innocent II, III and IV.

Click

And if you're a Wiki hater, I'm sure there are more sources out there, if you want to read how a Christian site justifies it all, go here

Not that small scale is it? And a lot of people died I'm sure...Which source is better? One that has nothing to do with Christianity? Or a Christian one? Which one would be more biased you think?

 

As for hypocrites, I must disagree. Most Christians admit that they are flawed and try to be better people, in accordance with the teachings of Christ, rather than your caricature, which portrays Christians as flawed creations thinking they are perfect.

Well i must disagree with you, I'll just leave it at that, I've said what I wanted to say about it and still stand by it, I'm not saying all of them are like that, just a lot...

 

Surely at that point it comes down to survival instinct, anyway?

In any case, there's no point martyring yourself unnecessarily.

Yeah that's what I said, I don't get your point here, unless it's to confirm what I said...

 

Then I'll be wrong. But I'd rather I had lived my life as a positive force in the world and be proved wrong than to be a selfish, unhelpful and greedy and be proven right.

Yet again, just because I don't believe in God, that doesn't make me a selfish, unhelpful and greedy now does it? I DO live my life as a positive force in the world, but I DON'T need God for that, is that so hard to understand?

 

And what if your rules mean that you cause hundreds, thousands of others to suffer, directly or indirectly, from your actions and inactions, in the long or the short term?

I'd rather live by the rules written down by "some twats two millennia ago" and do good than harm others having lived by my own rules.

And they say I'm judgemental...What makes you think my rules would be so evil and twisted? They don't mean anything like that, like I said, I live my life the best I can and try and help others as much as I can because I just AM a compassionate person who actually cares about others, whether they be Christian, Jewish, Muslim or whatever...I don't to it because it's written down in the Bible or that's what God wants me to do, period.

 

Then consider yourself a very fortunate person. No, not believing in God doesn't make you evil. Doing evil things does.

I know that, but evil things have been done by all people, religious or not, Christian or not, just because people don't believe in God, that doesn't make them immoral or unethical or even evil, it's a personal choice that has nothing to do with how a person is good or evil...

 

How can you be sure He hasn't? Perhaps you weren't listening, or misinterpreted His message.

Maybe, but I could bounce that ball right back and say, How can YOU be sure he has? Maybe you misinterpreted something as well, or maybe there really IS another explanation for *insert whatever thing God might do to prove He is with you*...

Again it comes down to belief, you believe He has, I don't...

 

Surely that is a question that is asked every day in law-courts throughout the world, and will continue to be asked until the end of human civilisation?

Yep, that's for sure, I just meant that killing in the name of God is wrong...

 

Indeed.

 

But if at the end of it, this person is a mass murderer, willing to kill you, your family and friends, and anyone else who might get in the way, and who won't stop because of a wound, no matter how serious, who will do anything to kill all those people, is it still right to only wound them?

Well if I shoot the f***er in the leg and he still doesn't give up, the next bullet is aimed between his eyes, for sure...

 

That rather depends if it's a theological, philosophical, doctrinal or generally religious matter. Strictly speaking, no, since on war, the Pope does cannot speak ex cathedra. I don't get why Papal infallibility is so misunderstood...

Because the Pope is not infallible, it's as simple as that...What he says is not more important than what anyone else has to say.

 

Can you make it up Everest without guides? Not easily, I'd wager.

Another strange analogy, religion is supposed to be a personal thing, not some mass production that gets fed to a bunch of people who are willing to swallow it...How exactly DO these people guide others? What makes them better than anyone else? Studying the Bible does not make one smarter IMO...

 

OK, first of all, it's to the greater glory of God. Secondly, melting down chalices etc would be to destroy priceless works of art. Should we cut up the Mona Lisa too?

The greater glory of God? Surely if God is indeed so righteous and all, would it not make him happier to see that money well spent on people who desperately NEED it? What's next should we make sacrifices at the altar for Him or something? What use does God have of a golden chalice?

I'm not talking about melting anything down, I'm talking about selling it to private collectors or museums or something...And cutting up the Mona Lisa is another strange analogy that has nothing to do with what I said, I was talking about Christian items, because isn't Christianity not about helping others?

[Negative Sun]

Why is God universally referred to as He? Wouldn't the presence of a gender indicate there is more than one being of God's species? If there was only one, what purpose would a gender serve? (Interestingly, I vaguely remember reading somewhere that before Judaism formed as a monotheistic religion God/Yahweh was described as having a wife, whose name escapes my mind at the moment.)

Really? I've never heard of that, just to make sure: You're not talking about Egyptian/Greek/Roman Mythology are you?

 

If you can be forgiven for any crime committed during your life, no matter how vile, by repenting at your death, but not having been a believer during your life is an unforgivable sin that will lead you to "Hell", why is that? What makes this crime so much worse than any other suffering you might have inflicted upon other mortals during your life, since it doesn't affect anyone but yourself and God? Would this not indicate that God has something to gain from being believed in, from being worshipped? And that not believing in God is to somehow deny God that something? I.e. crimes against other humans or animals can be forgiven, but crimes directly affecting God cannot?

My thoughts exactly, I'd like to see someone answer that...

 

I also vaguely remember reading somewhere that the concept of a "Hell" as a counterpart to Heaven hasn't been in Christianity from the start, but was added retroactively to the teachings by the Church some time during the first millennia as a means to better control the masses and compel them into submitting themselves to the faith. Is this false, or do anyone with better memory know where that comes from?

I doesn't sound familiar to me, but to be honest, sounds quite plausible...

[tk102]

If you can be forgiven for any crime committed during your life, no matter how vile, by repenting at your death, but not having been a believer during your life is an unforgivable sin that will lead you to "Hell", why is that?

I'll take a shot at this. Let's assume an afterlife. Let's also assume that when you die you are completely alone. Then you will be left with your memories of your actions and whether they torture you or not is subjective. If you believe that you've sincerely asked forgiveness from the Creator, that thought should give you peace.

What makes this crime so much worse than any other suffering you might have inflicted upon other mortals during your life, since it doesn't affect anyone but yourself and God?

Because life and the suffering in life is temporary. Suffering in the afterlife is eternally supposedly. And because we assumed you're alone when you die, there is no other judge except you and God. If you denied the existence of God, then I guess you would believe yourself to be completely alone and would be left in a perpetual state of "why?"

 

Would this not indicate that God has something to gain from being believed in, from being worshipped? And that not believing in God is to somehow deny God that something? I.e. crimes against other humans or animals can be forgiven, but crimes directly affecting God cannot?

As for whether belief in God benefits God in any way, Sri Aurobindo suggests it does. (link)

[stingerhs]

You say "by not listening to him", I say "by not using common sense", same thing really isn't it?

Common sense to me implies that we aim to strive for a better, peaceful world, isn't that what a civilized world or society is all about in the end?

and yet we have a lot of problems in this world that can be attributed to a number of different problems. and some people would even attribute those problems to "common sense" which can be the result of a number of reasons. with no real reference point, we're left to our own devices which have been proven time and again to be far from perfect.

 

my earlier point by pointing out the root of the Western culture's inheirant ethic structure was meant to explain this. you can say all you want that there were other cultures that existed before the Bible was written, which is true, but there is nothing that has had more impact on Western culture than Christianity which is rooted in the Bible. in other words, the most influential reference point on Western ethics is rooted in the Bible. you could name a couple of philosophers and idealists, but the one reference point that has stood the test of time in the Western culture is the Bible.

Again, that is what YOU believe, but that doesn't make it true, and is certainly not enough proof for me, there are a lot of other theories of how the universe came to be, and I have a few favorites of my own, but none of them include God...

actually, there are only about 2 theories that i can think of off the top of my head, and only one of them is absent of some sort of a supernatural figure. and in all honesty, they both seem a bit far-fetched and require some degree of faith.

No one is perfect indeed, and all I can do is be the best person I can, according to my own standards, if I'm happy with that, then I can die a happy man...(Touch wood not too soon lol)

...and without a solid reference point, your standards are flawed the same as anyone else, myself included. and don't take that as a flame. i'm writing hypothetically here.

 

that is one of the major points of Christianity. we, as humans, cannot make our standards perfect. and as a whole, our standards will differ wildly because of our flawed nature. by having a perfect God as a reference point for our standards, our standards can then stand on something much more concrete.

I believe there is no God and my life will end when my body dies, but if there actually is a God, will he deny me passage to Heaven merely for not believing in Him? Even if I have lived my life the best I could and helped others wherever I could?

Because if that is true, I do not want to have anything to do with this God...

then by definition, you're guilty of ignorance. you have to understand that i'm in no way trying to condescend you, but by definition, there is only one way to eternal life which is by accepting Jesus. just simply living your life to the best you can isn't enough because of the flawed nature in all of us.

 

for me, that's not an obstacle. i live my life the way i want to live my life, but the difference is that my standards line up with the Bible. do i live up to my standards? there isn't a day that i don't meet them, but i still wake up each morning and go for it all over again as i live my life. believing in God and worshipping him is something that i just do as it's apart of my life. IMHO, i'm a better person for it, but i'll be the first to admit that i'm not perfect.

 

i don't know if that helps you understand it any better, but i certainly don't want you to feel like you're less than anybody else. in my view, we're in the same boat with different vantage points.