RobQel-Droma Posted September 19, 2007 Share Posted September 19, 2007 Here's the link to a main article: http://www.villagevoice.com/blogs/runninscared/archives/2007/09/florida_student.php I don't know about you, but I find the actions of the police outrageous. They advanced on this kid and ended up tasering him with no provocation, and in doing so violated his rights of free speech. What is this, the world of the secret police, where they arrest you for speaking out against someone politically? I thought free speech was one of the most important rights we have - and here we have police violating them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Web Rider Posted September 19, 2007 Share Posted September 19, 2007 To my knoweledge of the case, the kid was imposing into the time of others, began kicking and fighting the cops when they attempted to seperate him from the mic LONG after his time ran out. not to mention this was a private function and people could be asked to leave if necessary. Free speech does not give you a free ticket to be an ass. Which is what this kid was being. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobQel-Droma Posted September 19, 2007 Author Share Posted September 19, 2007 The kid wasn't being an ass. In fact, he said thanks to Kerry in the beginning, then gave some background info to his questions, and then asked them. Then, all of a sudden - bam. His mic is cut *without* warning. Then police began to drag him off. As I said, no provocation either. He wasn't asked, he was dragged and then told to leave. True, I agree. Just cause you have free speech doesn't mean you can be an ass, but.... he does have the right. The cops were the ones acting wrongfully anyways, they didn't ask him to leave, they just began dragging him off. Not only that, they have no right to drag some kid to the ground who has done nothing wrong and taser him multiple times, while the kid is screaming for them to stop. What sickens me is that at first the audience was laughing and applauding like it was a show.... although they weren't when they started tasering him. It was totally uncalled for. Seriously, if you watch the video, you can hear the kid say "I'll leave the building" or something similar to the officers. But they don't let him up and throw him on the ground. And then these taser-happy cops start shocking him; come on, like 5 cops, and they can't subdue him without a taser? It was also sickening to hear John Kerry make remarks about "too bad he (the kid) couldn't inaugurate me as President" and not even make any effort to step in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingerhs Posted September 19, 2007 Share Posted September 19, 2007 now that video was appalling. if there isn't an outcry over this, then there truly is no justice in this world. my guess is that those cops were under orders to arrest him, but the way that they underwent it was way overdone. in truth, he was being rather combative towards those police, but honestly, i don't see why he would have acted differently given the fact that he was being arrested without anything explained to him. seriously, this was just plain wrong, and something needs to be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Lion54 Posted September 19, 2007 Share Posted September 19, 2007 He was tasered because he resisted the police. That is all there is to it. Trying to make something of it that its not, is silly at best. He was getting worked up and two officers came in to escort him out. It is VERY unlikely he would have been arrested. For one thing, its more paperwork for the cops. Seriously, arresting someone means paperwork. Escorting someone from a building does not. Also, at public events, cops are more likely to escort people out of a building than arrest them. Its only when they person is drunk or really disorderly that they are arrested. They would have preferred to let him go on his merry way after he left the room/building, but the kid saw the cops and decided he was being arrested. At that point he freaked out and started yelling about being arrested and tried to fight with the cops. He was clearly agitated BEFORE the cops stepped in and when he saw a badge, his "fight or flight" told him to fight. People act like a idiot and when the cops come in they decide to fight them, but its the cops fault... I couldn't get the video you posted to load for some reason, but I found this - Watch the order of events carefully. 1) The kid was on the mic talking to Kerry and getting worked up. You can see the cops are standing behind him. They likely moved into that position when they felt he might be trouble. Notice, they are just standing there watching. You can see the female cop turn to her partner, likely they are discussing if they need to take action. Its also possible they where already standing there, or a few feet back, as it appears the mic was set up there. 2) The mic cuts out. At a public even, especially a political even, the sound system operator has to be ready. An even such as this is supposed to be an orderly question and answer type of thing, but the kid was overworked and the sound operator cut his mic. The cops, who where already in position, stepped in to escort him out. 3) The kid realizes the mic is cut off and makes a frustrated gesture. He then sees the cops stepping up to him and freaks out. Important note: They DID NOT have their handcuffs out at this point. 4) The kid decides hes being arrested unfairly and starts yelling about it as well as fighting with the cops. At this point, we see a cop with a taser step in, but he does not fire. You can hear him yelling "Put your hands behind your back." The kid does not. 5) After more struggling and yelling, the cops wrestle him to the ground but he continues to fight them. He is warned multiple times that if he does not stop struggling, that he will be tased. He yells "Don't tase me," but still continues to struggle. Asking not to be tased isn't going to stop them if you're still fighting... Did they need to tase him? Probably not. But to make it sound like they did so with no provocation is in error. in truth, he was being rather combative towards those police, but honestly, i don't see why he would have acted differently given the fact that he was being arrested without anything explained to him. You posted as I was typing my response. Anyway, I just want to point out that he was NOT being arrested until he started fighting with the cops. He was being escorted out. I made the point earlier, but notice they did not have their handcuffs out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue Warrior Posted September 19, 2007 Share Posted September 19, 2007 The tazer gun was maybe overstepping the margin. Those who feel there is something to answer to should chase up someone like the DPP or an Inspector so an internal investigation would be launched. Any move to put this into effect should be public so that an investigation is not quashed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagobahn Eagle Posted September 19, 2007 Share Posted September 19, 2007 Another important note is that Kerry tried to tell the cops not to taze the guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mimartin Posted September 19, 2007 Share Posted September 19, 2007 I agree the police may have overreacted, but I don’t see how they violated his right of free speech. His allotted time was up, so he was actually violating the next questioner’s rights. Also when a police officer ask you to jump, the correct answer is how high. He was after all resisting arrest, plain and simple; the police have the authority and duty to place people under arrest. They do not have the authority to lock you away for life, just as the police may have overreacted so did the college student. How did he know they were not just going to escort him outside to stop any kind of disturbance? He never gave them a chance to explain. He just started yelling and waving his body around without any real provocation by the police. Thus assuring himself of actually being placed under arrest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caius Fett Posted September 19, 2007 Share Posted September 19, 2007 Latest from Fox http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,297287,00.html Looks like this guy is widely known for being a attention hound and a practical joker. IMO he deliberately provoked this incident. As for the Police it looked to me as is they were exercising considerable restraint and were completely within their rights to taser him especialy considering they warned him several time to quit resisting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagobahn Eagle Posted September 19, 2007 Share Posted September 19, 2007 No. Tazering should be restricted to self-defense against people who truly pose a threat to the police. Not a single unarmed person already being subdued by several officers. That US police resorts to violence this easily is disturbing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MdKnightR Posted September 19, 2007 Share Posted September 19, 2007 I'm really on the fence about this. Both parties - the student and the cops - should have acted differently. The student should not have acted the way he did, but for the cops to taser him while he was already on the ground subdued is ridiculous. He was begging for mercy and they shot him anyway. I find it hard to believe that it took so many cops to bring him under control. I have seen people strung out of PCP subdued by far fewer cops than it took to control this skinny kid. It shouldn't have taken a taser in addition to 10 or more cops to get him out of there. In fact, the kids attorney is now saying that the cuffs were on BEFORE they shocked him. However, in light of the fact the kid is known for pushing the envelope, I am inclined to believe that this was just his latest endeavor to wake people up. If his intention was to show that we truly don't have as free a speech as we think we do, he definitely proved his point. The cops ignored Kerry when he said he would answer the boy's questions and proceeded to take him away before he heard the answers. Just another chip in the stone of Liberty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caius Fett Posted September 19, 2007 Share Posted September 19, 2007 Sorry Dagobahn I will have to disagree. IMO if someone is stupid enough to actively resist and strugle with a POLICE OFFICER they deserve to be tasered. Thats just my opinion. Is it harsh? Yes I'll admit that all day long, but then I have nothing but the highest respect for Law Enforcment Officers. Again just my opinion. EDIT. Removed a statment that was too broad a generalization and went too far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tk102 Posted September 19, 2007 Share Posted September 19, 2007 I agree with Caius Fett here. The officer issued commands to submit and be quiet while before the handcuffs were applied. There was a moment where he could have decided to comply but instead the kid continued to yell as the cuffs were being applied including using the F word. At that point it was obvious the kid's hysteria was not going to subside. The taser was used to end the spectacle and bring order back to the chaos this kid brought on. Handcuffs don't prevent headbutts or kicks from a hysterical person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted September 19, 2007 Share Posted September 19, 2007 Listen to the police. Don't get tazered. It's easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PoiuyWired Posted September 19, 2007 Share Posted September 19, 2007 Another important note is that Kerry tried to tell the cops not to taze the guy. I would like to be sure about this, any more info on this point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Web Rider Posted September 19, 2007 Share Posted September 19, 2007 However, in light of the fact the kid is known for pushing the envelope, I am inclined to believe that this was just his latest endeavor to wake people up. If his intention was to show that we truly don't have as free a speech as we think we do, he definitely proved his point. The cops ignored Kerry when he said he would answer the boy's questions and proceeded to take him away before he heard the answers. Just another chip in the stone of Liberty. no, he's right, you DONT have free speech at a private gathering where each speaker has an allotted amount of time to say what they will. You are not free to simply go on and on infringing upon the time allotted to others to speak. Free speech does not give people permission to use that right to infringe upon other's rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Galt Posted September 19, 2007 Share Posted September 19, 2007 That makes me extremely angry. Sure, the guy was more than a little worked up, but that does not by any means justify escorting him out of the building. Kerry should have interrupted him, answered a few questions, and let him respond. The rent-a-cops were unnecessary in the first place, and I think this event, especially the crowd's reactions, is indicative of how degraded the rights of the individual are in this country. He should not be deprived of his right to speak his mind, "practical joker" or no, if he waited in line and followed proper forum procedures. I am thoroughly disgusted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue Nine Posted September 19, 2007 Share Posted September 19, 2007 Serves him right. There are way too many rude, inconsiderate and arrogant people like that running around, especially on college campuses. It's one thing to speak your mind, it's another to be so damn obnoxious about it that you deserve to have your ass tazered. Personally, I would've nightclubbed him. In the face. >________________> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Web Rider Posted September 19, 2007 Share Posted September 19, 2007 He should not be deprived of his right to speak his mind, "practical joker" or no, if he waited in line and followed proper forum procedures. that's the point, he DIDNT follow proper procedures and refused to step down when asked to do so, upon being removed, he freaked out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobQel-Droma Posted September 19, 2007 Author Share Posted September 19, 2007 Sorry Dagobahn I will have to disagree. IMO if someone is stupid enough to actively resist and strugle with a POLICE OFFICER they deserve to be tasered. Thats just my opinion. Is it harsh? Yes I'll admit that all day long, but then I have nothing but the highest respect for Law Enforcment Officers. Again just my opinion. Well, my personal opinion is, just cause you have the badge doesn't mean you can throw your weight around for no reason. That should make sense, right? I mean, these guys were way over the line. 4-5 cops and they couldn't handle him quietly? Come on.... An ex-cop made a remark about this, couldn't remember when she said it, but she knew a simple pinky move that could take someone down to their knees. Just her, with no help. She was surprised by the need to use a taser. And also, just so you know, tasers hurt like hell. Just a fact. So maybe you might want to rethink "deserved" to be tasered. After all, as I said: Just cause someone is being a little loud, maybe even obnoxious.... does that mean that they should not be allowed to speak and should be dragged off and tasered? Serves him right. There are way too many rude, inconsiderate and arrogant people like that running around, especially on college campuses. It's one thing to speak your mind, it's another to be so damn obnoxious about it that you deserve to have your ass tazered. Is that your real opinion, or is that partially motivated by the nature of his political remarks? No offense BTW, dude.... I'm just asking. Because, again (I'm repeating myself), simply being obnoxious does not warrant your right for free speech to be taken away and have you tasered by 4 wimpy police who can't handle you otherwise. Or maybe they were just itching to use a taser, I don't know. Or think about this: would this have happened if the kid had been praising Kerry? I honestly don't know. But the fact is, someone didn't like what he was saying, or how he was saying it. But that isn't a crime, people. It's just not. that's the point, he DIDNT follow proper procedures and refused to step down when asked to do so, upon being removed, he freaked out. In doing what? Besides, the police cut his mic first. He wasn't asked, they just flat out cut him off and said "you have to leave". At which place, joker or not as John Galt said, he protested. And was right to protest. I mean, the cops were not following "proper procedure".... there was no reason to drag him out. Let Kerry handle it, he's now saying that he should have handled it himself and that the cops were too jumpy. But there would have been no situation if the cops had just backed off. If someone's going to drag you off for no crime, wouldn't you ask "what the....?!" Unless you didn't have any guts to stand up for your rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Web Rider Posted September 19, 2007 Share Posted September 19, 2007 In doing what? Besides, the police cut his mic first. He wasn't asked, they just flat out cut him off and said "you have to leave". At which place, joker or not as John Galt said, he protested. And was right to protest. I mean, the cops were not following "proper procedure".... there was no reason to drag him out. Let Kerry handle it, he's now saying that he should have handled it himself and that the cops were too jumpy. But there would have been no situation if the cops had just backed off. If someone's going to drag you off for no crime, wouldn't you ask "what the....?!" Unless you didn't have any guts to stand up for your rights. No, his mic was simply cut. We don't know if the cops did it, if the sound controller did it, or if one of the political figures requested it. It was simply cut. Which was taken as a cue for the cops to ask him to leave. And they had no reason to drag him out, he was told to leave, requested to leave, what difference does it make? The cops came up to him and told him he needed to leave. Wow, big deal, so he wouldn't get to blast his agenda in front of a couple political figures who were probly the wrong target anyway. Any sensible person would think thusly: My message was just cut off The Police as asking me to leave. I don't want to get hurt, so I should just leave. At some point in this guy's train of thought, he thought the best solution would be to refuse to leave, struggle when he was made to leave and completely freak out and try and get away. He wasn't even being accused of a crime, he was simply being asked to leave. Which anybody with the authority to do so can request of ANY person in such a meeting. Police, Kerry, sound guy, whatever. People who have done nothing wrong have no reason to freak when the cops ask you to leave. You simply realize that now's not the place for whatever you're doing, and you leave. And given that this guy has a record of causing trouble, I wouldn't be surprised if this was just another instance of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue Nine Posted September 20, 2007 Share Posted September 20, 2007 Is that your real opinion, or is that partially motivated by the nature of his political remarks? No offense BTW, dude.... I'm just asking. That's my real, honest opinion. I couldn't give two ****s about the nature of his remarks. Fact of the matter is, he was being a snot and taking up other people's time at a debate where such time is obviously limited and when asked to leave, he stood his ground. That's abusing your right to free speech. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor Devon Posted September 20, 2007 Share Posted September 20, 2007 Interesting article they have on him, especially for his background. Andrew Meyer has been described as "a known prankster who often posts practical jokes online."[12] His website, http://www.theandrewmeyer.com, contains videos posted by Meyer including pranks against Harry Potter fans along with a written diatribe against the media and the Iraq War. The official police report states that Meyer asked a woman if she was recording him moments before beginning his questions.[9] The report states that "as [Meyer] was escorted down stairs with no cameras in sight, he remained quiet, but once the cameras made their way down stairs he started screaming and yelling again." Additionally, the report states that Meyer was "laughing and being lighthearted in the car, his demeanor completely changed once the cameras were not in sight."[13] During the ride, Meyer is reported to have said to the police officers that "I am not mad at you guys, you didn't do anything wrong, you were just trying to do your job."[1] Meyer then asked if there were going to be cameras present at the jail. It's not strictly related to the event there, but it does help establish his character. The kid sounds like a snotbag to me. The police say "keep struggling and we'll tazer you," while he screams "DON'T TAZER ME BRO" and goes on struggling... Given his background I really wouldn't be surprised if it was all a publicity stunt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tk102 Posted September 20, 2007 Share Posted September 20, 2007 I mean, these guys were way over the line. 4-5 cops and they couldn't handle him quietly? Come to think of it, a tranquilizer gun would have been perfect in that situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jae Onasi Posted September 20, 2007 Share Posted September 20, 2007 The reason the mic was cut was because each person had a time limit to speak to Kerry (heard this on WGN radio today). The kid's time was up. It's very easy to arm-chair quarterback this. Look at it from the perspective of what the cops saw: Guy is asking some odd questions that make him sound kind of paranoid. Guy's time is up at the mic. He doesn't leave. Mic is cut. Guy still doesn't leave. Kerry's an ex-Presidential candidate who's still a target by loonies. Guy talking about conspiracy theories and refusing to leave the mic even after it's turned off could fall into the loony category. Or someone high on some meth, coke, or any number of interesting drugs. The upstart of that is this: The cops have no idea what kind of person they're dealing with. Is he high and combative? Is he crazy and combative? Is he a threat to Kerry? Other students? Is he going to pull out a weapon that got missed going through security? Does he know martial arts so a weapon might not even be necessary? Next, guy is asked to leave by campus police. Guy refuses and starts resisting. Cops tell him he's under arrest and try to do so. Guy then resists arrest. At this point the risk to the cops and to the guy has increased substantially. Guy is taken down and is kicking and struggling, which puts both the cops and him at high risk for injury. I can see why it would take 5 or more people to subdue him. When you have someone fighting arrest and they're high or panicked, they can easily generate tremendous power. If they have any kind of combat/martial art experience, they're capable of generating even greater power. You never want to partly subdue someone. You want to completely and unequivocally subdue someone. While having 5 people pile on you will generally subdue you, it's not a sure thing. One time, I was helping do first aid on a guy who had gotten badly dehydrated during one of our mock Renaissance battles. He was just lucid enough to tell us he'd been in a hunter-killer unit in Vietnam, but hallucinating enough to tell us he was seeing the VC in rice paddies. In the hills of Western Pennsylvania. We didn't know if he had any head/neck/back injuries and since he'd been in an HK unit in Nam, we knew he knew how to kill in unarmed combat. We had one person each sitting or lying on his arms and legs--4 people, none of them lightweights, and a fifth holding his head still, trying to talk him down while we waited for the ambulance. He was not a big guy at all--maybe 140 or 150 or so. We just about got him settled down when the signal cannon 50 feet away went off to signal the end of that battle. The guy broke with reality, thinking he was getting bombed, and literally sat straight up to try to bolt, carrying three people with him. The people lying on his legs nearly got kicked off as he panicked completely. It took 2 more people, 7 total, to get him back down and subdued--and this is a guy who had been weakened quite a bit by the severe dehydration. We were extremely lucky that none of us got injured trying to help him. So in the case of this guy, since he was resisting arrest even with 5 officers trying to deal with him, if I'd been in that situation and the guy was still bucking me even with 5 of us, I think I would have felt it was necessary not only for officer safety but also the guy's safety. With the limited information the cops had about the guy based on his comments and actions, I don't know if they really had any other viable choice. Tasering is preferable to nightsticks and guns, and they couldn't pepper spray the guy because there were too many other people around who'd be exposed to the chemical. Since physical restraint wasn't adequate, I think this was the only remaining choice they had to remove the threat the guy might have posed. Tranquilizer guns aren't as effective--first, you have to hit the person just right for the dart to stick. Then, you have to wait for it to work. If the person yanks out the dart, the tranq won't get into his system. Third, there's a risk of life-threatening allergies and drug interactions--sticking someone with a tranq on top of whatever legal and/or illegal drugs are in a suspect's system could create bad interactions. Fourth, you might tranquilize to the point that someone stops breathing, especially if they have depressants or other tranquilizers on board already, and if the ambulance doesn't get there in time, it could cause serious injury or death. The taser's actually safer in that regard--no drug-drug interaction or anaphylactic allergy issues, and it works instantly and pretty reliably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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