JCarter426 Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 Your argument is flawed. You're saying that what separates humans from other animals is free will, yet you're also saying that homosexual animals choose to be that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Source Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 Your argument is flawed. You're saying that what separates humans from other animals is free will, yet you're also saying that homosexual animals choose to be that way. Ah. My argument is that mankind can make more complex descisions. Since human beings are more aware of what is right or wrong, according to their faith, they are held to a higher level of responsibility. I also pointed out that God created man in his image, and he did not make animals in his image. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCarter426 Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 According to that reasoning, all animals should be homosexual. If that were the case, I assure you there would no longer be any animals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inyri Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 According to that reasoning, all animals should be homosexual. If that were the case, I assure you there would no longer be any animals. I don't see where you pulled that from. In any case I think it's beside the point; animals don't really form 'loving' relationships so there's not really such a thing as a 'gay' animal -- just an animal that briefly tries to mate with its own sex. However it will still go mate with a female, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCarter426 Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 I don't see where you pulled that from. Well, if animals don't have the ability to make "complex descisions" or tell "what is right or wrong, according to their faith", then wouldn't they all make the "wrong" choice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Source Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 According to that reasoning, all animals should be homosexual. If that were the case, I assure you there would no longer be any animals. I think you missed some critical things, which I mentioned in my posts. I will let you re-read them. I made some comments that pointed to your answer. Maybe you just missread the post. To: @ Arcesious, Another thought that came to mind. You are onto another interesting issue, which revolves around type casting politics. When people define Democrates and Republicans, they create a series of criteria that are not accurate. Republicans and Democrats can be religious. Catholics can be a Democrat or Republican. Protestants can be a Democrat or Republican. Nothing is exclusive. We as a species like to place people into categories. Grrr... During the past several weeks, the Today show's Maradith (sp?) made some interesting comments about Heston. According to the Today Show, "Heston was a civil rights leader, and then he became conservitive." Grrr... That is a completely false statement. If you look at American history, conservitives were responsible for abolishing slavery. Al Gore's father and other Southern Democrats were against abolishing slavery. I am sure that some Democrats sided with the Republicans, but the majority in the Democratic party were against freeing and giving rights to African Americans. Another historical fact is that Republicans have placed African Americans in key positions of office more than Democrats have. Collin Powel and Conny Rice are two modern day examples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inyri Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 Well, if animals don't have the ability to make "complex descisions" or tell "what is right or wrong, according to their faith", then wouldn't they all make the "wrong" choice?...no? That's statistically impossible. Besides, I'd argue as far as the animal is concerned there are no 'wrong' decisions because they don't have our belief system. Because they're animals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCarter426 Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 Well, of course they don't. Because they're animals. They can't possibly make choices, much less the right one. And yet there are some animals that are homosexual, and some that are not. If animals are incapable of choice, then how is homosexuality a choice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corinthian Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 God placed a prohibition on Humanity. One of many, in fact. Like eating the Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge. Why does God consider Homosexuality a sin? I really couldn't say. I have my theories, but frankly, it doesn't matter the why of it. The fact remains that in the Old Testament and in the Epistles, Homosexuality is condemned. At any rate, as to the fact of animals having gay sex with each other, animals are not humans, and as such, are not held to the same laws that we are. Also, it's technically impossible for homosexuals to actually have intercourse - the parts don't exactly line up properly. That always puzzles me when people talk about Gay Animals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inyri Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 Well, of course they don't. Because they're animals. They can't possibly make choices, much less the right one. And yet there are some animals that are homosexual, and some that are not. If animals are incapable of choice, then how is homosexuality a choice?I think animals are perfectly capable of making choices. I take it you don't have any pets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCarter426 Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 Why does God consider Homosexuality a sin? I really couldn't say. I have my theories, but frankly, it doesn't matter the why of it. The fact remains that in the Old Testament and in the Epistles, Homosexuality is condemned. The question is why did man consider it a sin, as the Old Testament was written by men, not god. And the simplest explanation would be that procreation was extremely important for the survival of early civilizations. I think animals are perfectly capable of making choices. I take it you don't have any pets. I do, but they're not mine. Yes, animals obviously can make some choices (when to eat, etc), but not any on the (supposedly) complex level that we're talking. But that's beside the point, as there's no evidence that it is a choice to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcesious Posted April 25, 2008 Author Share Posted April 25, 2008 Well I'll have to point that out to my father... And try to get him to stop using double-standards... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheProphet Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 The question is why did man consider it a sin, as the Old Testament was written by men, not god. And the simplest explanation would be that procreation was extremely important for the survival of early civilizations. Well, there are people who believe that the Bible was written by man, but inspired by God. There are actually a few theories pertaining to this in the Christian community. I believe the most common is the theory that the people who wrote the Bible were inspired by God and that every word written there was written exactly as it was supposed to be. If this god is so powerful and almighty, how would he let his one way of communicating with his people be contaminated? That sort of thing. So I wouldn't say that "Man considered it a sin", it is the Christian god who considered it a sin. I would argue that the question is not that, it is whether or not it is a reliable source. I do, but they're not mine. Yes, animals obviously can make some choices (when to eat, etc), but not any on the (supposedly) complex level that we're talking. But that's beside the point, as there's no evidence that it is a choice to begin with. I would have to disagree with you here as well, my dog Rex makes a lot of choices, that go beyond the simple eat or drink kind of thing. He absolutely adores my father, my thoughts is because he sees him as the alpha male. So anytime I am trying to call him and he is near my father, he will give me the "Screw off!" look and go snuggle with him. I would say that there are pleanty of choices dogs make. Now do they think about what they are thinking using human reasoning? I don't think they are THAT complex, but they certainly make choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcesious Posted April 25, 2008 Author Share Posted April 25, 2008 Well one thing I need to poitn out is that this is not a debate thread... Although i don't really mind, it would probably be better to discuss such as this in KC... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astrotoy7 Posted April 26, 2008 Share Posted April 26, 2008 Did the Christian God.... Now this reminds me of this: I love how faithful types claim ownership on the perception of an entity Saying The Christian Perception of God would be far more sensible, and less insulting to others that do not necessarily see/agree that God has a Christian flavour. Unfortunately for the OP, it was a natural progression to turn this into one of those annoying "zOMG My religious beliefs > < yours" or "gays = sinful" threads... I'm surprised it took this long! (despite my efforts at mentioning passionate counsellor love...) All we need is someone to throw in something about evolution, and we have a full set of ''nebulous debates that will never come to a conclusion'' Everyone has, and is entitled to their own beliefs. The millisecond you try and a) convince someone your view is better or correct b) force your view upon someone else then you enter cant count yourself among the ranks of the deluded zealots of the world leave each to their own, educate, respect, tolerate... and the forum/world will be a better place.. and as Arcesious said, this isnt a debate thread, take it to the chambers... where we try and confine such ramblings If anyone does want to post, it should be more related to the original topic>> Namely, discussing the real life implications of questiniong faith...not questioning the faith itself, which is entirely ones own right, and ostensibly a private matter...(which OP never invited) mtfbwya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jae Onasi Posted April 26, 2008 Share Posted April 26, 2008 Unfortunately for the OP, it was a natural progression to turn this into one of those annoying "zOMG My religious beliefs > < yours" or "gays = sinful" threads... I'm surprised it took this long! (despite my efforts at mentioning passionate counsellor love...)That would be because I split off those posts into the Theism/Atheism thread after saying this wasn't going to be a debate thread when we had a ton of them in Kavar's. And reminder to everyone, I don't want to split off posts continually when you all start the religion argument up again after I've specifically asked for the debate to continue in the theism/atheism thread. I'll just lock this instead.... might even have used that "call 911 in members local area" new mod button we had tk102 craft out of twigs and hay, MacGyver style..... Don't forget the pen knife, shoelaces, duct tape, and Hershey bars. This is very important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcesious Posted April 26, 2008 Author Share Posted April 26, 2008 Okay, as I said, my father was plannign to show me soem things about the Christian view of homosexuality. So he showed me a podcast (The April 13, 2008 podcast), that in summary was talking about taking the bible literally and Jesus's views homosexuality. The argument was basically: 'Because Jesus says it's wrong, it's wrong.' It obviously was a very bad argument. Of course, by Greg Koukl... Advice and refute against Greg Koukl's arguments and other arguments on STR.org would be helpful, as would advice of how to put it in a way that will not make my father think I'm agnostic/athiest just yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nedak Posted April 26, 2008 Share Posted April 26, 2008 Advice and refute against Greg Koukl's arguments and other arguments on STR.org would be helpful, as would advice of how to put it in a way that will not make my father think I'm agnostic/athiest just yet. If you're looking for advice on how to show your father how wrong he is without offending him.. I don't see that a very big possibility. I recommend discussing such topics with him once you've shared your views with him on religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totenkopf Posted April 27, 2008 Share Posted April 27, 2008 I have to wonder at this point why you'd want to push this. It's clear to you where your parents stand on these issues and you've decided to adopt an outlook that's almost 180 degrees in the other direction. I suspect there's probably no way you're going to change your parent's views with your doubts and trying to confront them is going to lead to a rocky road for you till your old enough to live on your own (short of "running away"). If you don't mind the upheaval you're going to bring about in your relationship with them, then continue on this course understanding what the price may be. I don't know your parent's, but suspect they've had their views for longer than you've been alive and likely have encounterd many of the arguments you'll resort to as well. My guess is that they may not know that you've gone DS (from their pov), but will only see you as continuing down that path. Pick your battles. As long as you're still under their roof (what, maybe 2-3 years at this point) don't rub your new found atheism in their noses. Continue to read and learn more. Who knows, you might ditch atheism for something else in a few years (or not) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan7 Posted April 27, 2008 Share Posted April 27, 2008 Okay, as I said, my father was plannign to show me soem things about the Christian view of homosexuality. So he showed me a podcast (The April 13, 2008 podcast), that in summary was talking about taking the bible literally and Jesus's views homosexuality. The argument was basically: 'Because Jesus says it's wrong, it's wrong.' It obviously was a very bad argument. Of course, by Greg Koukl... Advice and refute against Greg Koukl's arguments and other arguments on STR.org would be helpful, as would advice of how to put it in a way that will not make my father think I'm agnostic/athiest just yet. Check back here; I'm drafting a letter you can present to your parents.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serpentine Cougar Posted April 27, 2008 Share Posted April 27, 2008 Okay, as I said, my father was plannign to show me soem things about the Christian view of homosexuality. So he showed me a podcast (The April 13, 2008 podcast), that in summary was talking about taking the bible literally and Jesus's views homosexuality. The argument was basically: 'Because Jesus says it's wrong, it's wrong.' It obviously was a very bad argument. Of course, by Greg Koukl... Advice and refute against Greg Koukl's arguments and other arguments on STR.org would be helpful, as would advice of how to put it in a way that will not make my father think I'm agnostic/athiest just yet. I know nothing about said podcast, but it would seem to me that it was geared for Christians, right? So it's probably assuming the people listening to it follow Jesus. In which case, I would say it is a valid argument. Sure it's not if you don't care what Jesus says, but I think it would be for the apparent intended audience of the podcast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcesious Posted April 27, 2008 Author Share Posted April 27, 2008 Edit: Okay I've decided I'm not going to take this further or tell them anytime soon. I've concluded that doing so would only cause lots of problems with my life at this point, that, and that I would miss seeing my friends at church if I convinced my parents not to take me to church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astrotoy7 Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 Edit: Okay I've decided I'm not going to take this further or tell them anytime soon. I've concluded that doing so would only cause lots of problems with my life at this point, that, and that I would miss seeing my friends at church if I convinced my parents not to take me to church. wise man excellent choice. write this in your diary under "Advice from Old Man Astro" Don't rock the boat if you're still sittin' in it when you get older, get a job, your own place, etc you can do your own thang, and no one will be in any position to stop you from doing said thang In fact, Ive noticed that as you get older, people generally don't care what you are doing, as long as you arent doing it in their house/on their time etc. This is easily the best part of being an adult, that unlimited propensity for covert behaviours .... \o/ \o/ Man, the stuff people get up to nowdays, but as long as they're polite to their neighbours/colleagues, and show up at work on time, its all OK hehe mtfbwya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCarter426 Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 Edit: Okay I've decided I'm not going to take this further or tell them anytime soon. That sounds all too familiar. I suppose I should warn you that avoiding the problem doesn't solve anything, but then I'd be branded a hypocrite. Though, the last thing you need right now is a fight with someone who won't listen. But you'll have to tell them some day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Source Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 Now this reminds me of this: I love how faithful types claim ownership on the perception of an entity Saying The Christian Perception of God would be far more sensible, and less insulting to others that do not necessarily see/agree that God has a Christian flavour. Who said "The Christian Perception of God would be far more sensible"? I think you are pulling something out of somwehere. Lol... If you are referencing my comments, I am just giving an example of religious logic. Since the thread owner is/was Lutheran, Christianity is the core to his beliefs and faith. Making logical conntections between Christianity and the subjects at hand is very relavant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.