Which Council Member?

[HIGH ON PIE 14]

The Jedi Council, especially in K2 is generally a debatable topic. Many don't like them for not helping Revan in the Mando Wars, treating the exile like trash, controversially erasing Revan's memories etc. But I would think that some members are disliked more than others, and many even liked. So I'm curious, which members are you guys favs and least favs? (Pick top two favorites in poll)

 

Favorites

2) Zez- Kai Ell: He was the only one to admit that the jedi were wrong in not aiding in the Mandelorian wars, and rejecting Revan afterwards. He seemed like one of the few who learned something during exile. Unlike Atris who if anything got worse. He also helps exile and Mira on Narr Shadda.

 

1) Kavar: While he is not as changed as Zez Kai Ell, he atleast still tries to hold the Republic together and ward off the sith, unlike others such as Vrook who cower on Dantooine. Also seems to have a great deal of respect for the exile.

 

Least Favorites

 

2) Vrook: Just a stodgy old gasbag.

 

1) Atris: the only one worse than Vrook. Atris in her self righteous attitude calling the exile bad and then falls to the darkside herself. (I know it was Traya manipulating) Also seems to think that she could face down the sith threat all by herself, steals the Ebon Hawk etc.

 

~HOP

[JCarter426]

The only one I have any respect for is Vash, who was the only one who recognized the Exile as a Jedi (in cut content) and actively sought out to fight the Sith. Zez-Kai Ell may have seen the flaw in the Council's decision, but what did he do about it? Nothing. He went and hid on Nar Shaddaa, doing nothing. And when the Exile returned, he was right next to Vrook and Kavar exiling them again.

 

As for Kavar, on the outside he may appear to be protecting the Republic, but appearances can be deceiving. His plan was to hide, until the Sith revealed themselves. They did that on Onderon, and yet his plan remained the same--to hide, claiming that if they came out of hiding they would be killed by the "true" threat.

 

All three of them viewed the survival of the Jedi more important than the destruction of the Sith--that was their key flaw. They turned on the Exile because they saw the Exile as a threat to the Jedi, even though the Exile was their only hope of stopping the Sith. And they viewed their own survival as even more important. If they truly cared about the survival of the Jedi, they would have trained Jedi like the Exile, regardless of the risk.

 

As for the ones in K1...they have such a brief appearance that it's hard to judge.

[Darth_Yuthura]

I'm going to go over each Council member and give my opinion on them...

 

Atris: An arrogant, pathetic, detestable creature. Beyond redemption because her belief in the jedi code was so strong that she ignored everything that it represented. I despised her most because she was like Vrook... only with nothing to back her beliefs. She chose the darkside, so I always leave her to choke on her own vomit in the end.

 

Dorak: Seemed closed-minded, but was not extremely biassed to ideas that defied the jedi.

 

Kavar: He seemed coerced by Vrook to turn against the Exile. I liked how he was part of the action and not sitting back like Atris. I think his intent was just, but the rest of the Council ruined him.

 

Vandar: Nice enough and friendly, but was on the side of arrogance. I couldn't tell enough of him to make a judgment, so he's neutral.

 

Vash: My favorite jedi because of the cut content. She did not follow the code blindly, so she was an ideal council member.

 

Zhar: "They were foolish to ignore the Council." That signifies that he believes he and the Council are perfect. He's nowhere near Vrook or Atris, but that one quote makes all the difference between a neutral member and a hopeless one.

 

Vrook: I think he has two faces. One is that he's a great jedi... and he has something to back that statement. The other face is one of a person so lost in his own significance that he is biassed against anything that's against him. In addition, he's been corrupted by the power of being a Council member that he thinks he is entitled to his power. Overall, he's more like a sith than a jedi.

 

Zez Kia Ell: He didn't help the Exile, but he did realize that the jedi were flawed and would have been a credit to the new order. I liked him second because he had the wisdom to realize that the Council never took responsibility for Revan, the Wars, or their own corruption.

 

 

One last note: Those Council members that speak of 'how many died in those wars' NEVER take into account the deaths in addition to those that would have resulted in the Mandalorians crushed the Republic. Any member that says that is hopelessly beyond the jedi.

[Fredi]

Zez-Kai Ell, he was very wise and he did understand the situation plus he is the only one with a doble-blade lightsaber *mayor points for that*.

[Meowster]

My vote goes to Vash. Reading through her cut content, it appears that she was in no way as much judgmental as the other masters. I liked Kavar too- I agree with you, Darth_Yuthura. My belief was that Vrook persuaded Kavar to go alone, or something.

 

Zez-kai Ell gets bonus points for the 'stauche.

[greggomonkey]

Dorak because never did anything to stop you and he is interesting.

[PrincessJ]

I'm gonna go Vandar. But I could just be speciesist. Kavar's a close second.

[Ctrl Alt Del]

Kavar never ceased to aid people and worlds, even when the order was to cloak on different planets and wait for the next meeting. We all know the role he played on Onderon, my vote goes for him.

 

Zhar: "They were foolish to ignore the Council." That signifies that he believes he and the Council are perfect. He's nowhere near Vrook or Atris, but that one quote makes all the difference between a neutral member and a hopeless one.

 

I disagree with this. Of course he believed on the Jedi Code and the Council, he was a master. I think you're jumping to conclusions the moment you say he thought himself to be perfect. He had a point, as those Jedi who followed Revan and Malak (with the exception of the Exile) either turned to the darkside or died, simple.

[Rev7]

I pretty much agree with what Darth_Yuthura said. I voted Vash, though. I haven't read much of the cut content, but by the way it sounds, we missed out on some good stuff.

 

I also really like Master Kavar. Just his personality was great, IMO. But as D_Y pointed out, the other members of the Council ruined him. Zez-Kai-Ell also seemed to be a pretty just wise Jedi, but he really didn't seem to take much action against the Sith, or anything much else for that matter. He did seem like a pretty wise Jedi though. He saw them as they truely are.

[HIGH ON PIE 14]

I can honestly say that I don't remember what Vash said in the cut content so I could not really make judgement on her. But from what people are saying she seems like the most fair one. As for Zhar, Dorak and Vandar: There is simply not enough in the game for me to make judgments on them.

 

Agreed, the council did ruin Kavar in a way. He followed Revan in the Mandelorian wars so obviously he had some sense. I think a little more time with the exile could have changed him back. He seemed to respect the exile more than he did the other council members.

 

Hehe no votes for Atris? I'm shocked...

~HOP

[Ctrl Alt Del]

Agreed, the council did ruin Kavar in a way. He followed Revan in the Mandelorian wars so obviously he had some sense.

 

What? He never did that.

[Rev7]

Agreed, the council did ruin Kavar in a way. He followed Revan in the Mandelorian wars so obviously he had some sense. I think a little more time with the exile could have changed him back. He seemed to respect the exile more than he did the other council members.

I don't think that Master Kavar followed Revan during the Mandalorian Wars, for various reasons. First, Kavar would have been exiled much like The Exile. Second, Master Kavar was on the Jedi High Council.

 

Just thought that I would point that out.

 

EDIT: Kinda beat me to it Ctrl.

[HIGH ON PIE 14]

Oh, when they said Kavar was the only one who had seen war I just assumed they meant the Mandelorian War. Heh...my bad. Well this will teach me not to assume cause when you do you make an ass out of u and me. What war did they mean anyway? Sorry about the confusion.

 

EDIT: Ahh, you know that makes more sense than the Mando Wars when you think about it. Thanks for the clarification.

[Rev7]

....Little is known about Kavar's early life. It is possible that he fought in the Great Sith War....

 

Little information is known about Kavar during the Jedi Civil War except that he fought alongside the Jedi ranks against the forces of Darth Malak. He was presumed dead at some point during these events, but that was far from the truth

Here is your answer.

[Ctrl Alt Del]

I don't think that Master Kavar followed Revan during the Mandalorian Wars, for various reasons. First, Kavar would have been exiled much like The Exile. Second, Master Kavar was on the Jedi High Council.

Besides, it doesn't make sense at all because he'll scold you at Onderon about joining Revan on his war against the mandalorians.

 

EDIT: Kinda beat me to it Ctrl.

 

My pleasure.

[TKA-001]

Vrook > All, hands down.

 

Why? Because he's a mean fricking Jedi, but he's still right. He doesn't pull punches. In KOTOR 1, he's rightfully distrustful of Revan, and unlike the other Jedi Masters, he doesn't pretend to like you when he doesn't. In KOTOR 2, Vrook is perfectly justified in disliking the Jedi Exile, as well. After all, you deliberately did what the people you take orders from told you not to do, which resulted in a war which led to the near destruction of the Jedi Order. In short, Vrook is the best because he's a badass that doesn't try to make everything all cushy for the player: he tells you how it is and if you don't like it, then you're welcome to screw yourself as far as he's concerned. He's biased against the player character because he knows that he's right and the PC is wrong. Anyone who isn't afraid to tell Revan and the Exile what a bunch of murderous, hypocritical morons they are gets points in my book, that's for sure. I've never seen anyone ever give a legitimate reason to dislike the guy, other than poorly-disguised demonstrations of Player Character Bias.

[Meowster]

Those of you who needed to see the cut content of Master Vash:

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lonna_Vash

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9RqXk-DfQo

[Darth_Yuthura]

Vrook > All, hands down.

 

Why? Because he's a mean fricking Jedi, but he's still right. He doesn't pull punches. In KOTOR 1, he's rightfully distrustful of Revan, and unlike the other Jedi Masters, he doesn't pretend to like you when he doesn't. In KOTOR 2, Vrook is perfectly justified in disliking the Jedi Exile, as well. After all, you deliberately did what the people you take orders from told you not to do, which resulted in a war which led to the near destruction of the Jedi Order. In short, Vrook is the best because he's a badass that doesn't try to make everything all cushy for the player: he tells you how it is and if you don't like it, then you're welcome to screw yourself as far as he's concerned. He's biased against the player character because he knows that he's right and the PC is wrong. Anyone who isn't afraid to tell Revan and the Exile what a bunch of murderous, hypocritical morons they are gets points in my book, that's for sure. I've never seen anyone ever give a legitimate reason to dislike the guy, other than poorly-disguised demonstrations of Player Character Bias.

 

 

Vrook failed to realize that the sith war happened because Revan took control of the war. The Council should have known that their followers would not blindly follow them when they give an impossible order. They should have known that if they didn't appoint Kavar as the commander... it would go to Revan or another bold enough to take action.

 

Vrook should have realized that the sith war could have been avoided if the Council took action and did what their followers would demand. The Council was supposed to speak for the Order... not themselves. I say Vrook is biassed because her absolutely refused to see anything beyond the direct consequences of the Sith wars. Vrook and Atris were fools to think that the jedi that saved the Republic caused the deaths of a few worlds to safeguard the rest of the Republic. The Council also never takes responsibility for Worlds like Cathar that died because they were not protected. How many other worlds would have ended up like Cathar if all the Jedi followed the Council?

 

As for the exile going against the Council... the Jedi who followed Revan followed the jedi code by protecting the innocent. It wasn't until Revan influenced them that they turned to the DS. If the Council did what the Order demanded, then Revan would not have had the political power he needed to corrupt the jedi. The Mando wars didn't corrupt the jedi... it was Revan's response to the Council's inaction.

[The Betrayer]

Zez-Kai Eli because he admits that the Jedi made a mistake.

Zhar because he is optimistic with Revan

Kavar because IDK

[Astor]

You know, TKA-001, I think I agree with you (didn't think i'd say that ). It's about time that we started to show Vrook some appreciation.

 

And so it begins...

 

Vrook failed to realize that the sith war happened because Revan took control of the war.[/Quote]

 

No, they realised that the only thing that would come out of the war against the Mandalorians was more war. They saw the shadow of future events, and that's why they needed time to examine the threat. It similar to something Kreia says - they needed to determine the situation as a whole, and then decide which string to pull, as opposed to severing all at once.

 

The Council should have known that their followers would not blindly follow them when they give an impossible order.[/Quote]

 

It wasn't an impossible order. many followed that order. It was those who joined Revan who lacked discipline, and self control. Revan and Malak themselves sought glory. Sure, they may not have said it, but that's as sure as hell why they went to war.

 

They should have known that if they didn't appoint Kavar as the commander... it would go to Revan or another bold enough to take action.[/Quote]

 

Yeah, cause straight after Kavar they'd choose a newly promoted Jedi Knight.

 

Vrook should have realized that the sith war could have been avoided if the Council took action and did what their followers would demand.[/Quote] As I said above, they were examining the threat, as opposed to the foolish action of jumping blindly into a war, much as Revan did.

 

The Council was supposed to speak for the Order... not themselves.[/Quote]

 

And they did speak for the order. It wasn't their fault that some decided to disobey the will of the council.

 

I say Vrook is biassed because he absolutely refused to see anything beyond the direct consequences of the Sith wars.[/Quote]

 

And I supposed you're not biased against the council, then?

 

Vrook and Atris were fools to think that the jedi that saved the Republic caused the deaths of a few worlds to safeguard the rest of the Republic.[/Quote]

 

The Council also never takes responsibility for Worlds like Cathar that died because they were not protected.[/Quote]

 

Yeah, cause it's not the like the Republic had, like, you know, an entire Space Navy for precisely that purpose, is it?

 

How many other worlds would have ended up like Cathar if all the Jedi followed the Council?[/Quote]

 

Probably a few, but by that time the Council probably would have decided to act.

 

As for the exile going against the Council... the Jedi who followed Revan followed the jedi code by protecting the innocent.[/Quote]

 

The Jedi Code also abhors death in any form, even that of enemies. Simply saying 'they're innocent, let's uphold the code!' isn't enough. They also serve the greater good of the Republic as a whole, not just a few worlds. What may be right for some might not be right for others.

 

If the Council did what the Order demanded, then Revan would not have had the political power he needed to corrupt the jedi.[/Quote]

 

There's also a part of the code that says 'Honour the Council'. And the order at large has no business demanding the Council to act. The council's primary purpose is to protect the order so that it may better serve the galaxy.

 

The Mando wars didn't corrupt the jedi... it was Revan's response to the Council's inaction.

 

Oh no, cause all that indiscriminate killing can't possibly turn someone down the dark path?

[Darth_Yuthura]

I'll put it in as few words as possible...

 

Revan could not have corrupted so many jedi if he just decided to join the sith. It was because he won the Mandalorian War. His followers saw his leadership succeed where the Council would have failed. Even the Mandalorians admit it was Revan that defeated them. The Jedi who followed Revan did so because he earned their respect enough to abandon the Council. It was because they allowed Revan to have a great deed that was worth more than the jedi code.

 

If the Council took control of the war from the start, there never would have been a civil war. The Council would have had the respect that Revan earned by saving the republic. There is no way to dispute that the Council was where it all the wars started.

[Astor]

I'll put it in as few words as possible...[/Quote]

 

You needn't resort to fewer words, on my behalf, I am capable of reading more...

 

Revan could not have corrupted so many jedi if he just decided to join the sith. It was because he won the Mandalorian War.

 

His followers saw his leadership succeed where the Council would have failed. [/Quote]

 

And how do you know that, exactly? As the council never entered the war, that point is irrevelevant - and we'll never know how different it could have been.

 

Even the Mandalorians admit it was Revan that defeated them.[/Quote]

 

Of course they're going to admit that he defeated them. He was the supreme commander of the Republic fleet at the time.

 

If the Council took control of the war from the start, there never would have been a civil war.[/Quote]

 

That's quite possibly true, but I think, given Revans ambitions, he would have eventually become Dark Lord of the Sith, war or not. But that's into the realms of conjecture, so i'll leave it.

 

The Council would have had the respect that Revan earned by saving the republic.[/Quote]

 

Such 'respect' is unsought by the Jedi. They don't concern themselves with respect, glory or any other form of ego massaging activities.

 

There is no way to dispute that the Council was where it all the wars started.

 

I don't understand that sentence (the doesn't make sense), so I can't really say anything about it.

[Darth_Yuthura]

Your logic is flawed. Everything began with the Council stressing their authority more than wisdom.

 

 

You needn't resort to fewer words, on my behalf, I am capable of reading more...

 

Revan could not have corrupted so many jedi if he just decided to join the sith. It was because he won the Mandalorian War.

 

Exactly! Because Revan won the war, most of the jedi supported him. If the Council won the war, the jedi would think that the Council were the best ones to lead the order.

 

And how do you know that, exactly? As the council never entered the war, that point is irrevelevant - and we'll never know how different it could have been.

 

It's not irrelevant. There is no scenario where the Republic would have won if they had waited for the 'true threat' to reveal itself. The Council never gave their followers a reason to follow them. They just said "We are in command. So we are right." They sound more like sith than jedi to me.

 

 

Of course they're going to admit that he defeated them. He was the supreme commander of the Republic fleet at the time.

 

Exactly! I don't know why you used your own logic against your argument.

 

 

That's quite possibly true, but I think, given Revans ambitions, he would have eventually become Dark Lord of the Sith, war or not. But that's into the realms of conjecture, so i'll leave it.

 

 

 

Such 'respect' is unsought by the Jedi. They don't concern themselves with respect, glory or any other form of ego massaging activities.

 

 

 

I don't understand that sentence (the doesn't make sense), so I can't really say anything about it.

 

If the Council declared war on the Mandalorians from the start, Revan would have had no ground to make the claim that the sith ways were the best.

 

Yuthura Ban became a sith because she had a noble cause to end slavery. She became a sith because she saw the jedi do nothing to end the practice, but eventually saw her cause had been lost and abandoned the sith. Revan was allowed a noble cause that allowed him to recieve followers.

 

I'll make this the last reply in this regard.

[Astor]

Your logic is flawed. Everything began with the Council stressing their authority more than wisdom.[/Quote]

 

I've never said they were stressing wisdom more than authority.

 

Exactly! Because Revan won the war, most of the jedi supported him. If the Council won the war, the jedi [/Quote]

 

Sorry, that last sentence in the quote you replied to is actually from your previous response. A mistake, on my part, yes, but not part of my argument.

 

It's not irrelevant. There is no scenario where the Republic would have won if they had waited for the 'true threat' to reveal itself. [/Quote]

 

Yes there are, there's plenty. There's never only one outcome. Surely playing KOTOR has shown people that?

 

The Council never gave their followers reason to follow them. They just said "We are in command. So we are right."[/Quote]

 

They don't have to give reasons. And they never simply said 'We are in charge'.

 

They sound more like sith than jedi to me.[/Quote]

 

Well, that's because both the Jedi and Sith are more alike than both sects would care to admit.

 

Exactly! I don't know why you used your own logic against your argument.[/Quote]

 

I wasn't using my own logic against my argument. I was stating that because Revan was supreme commander, it's natural that the Mandalorians would associate him with their defeat, Much in the same way that French associated Wellington with defeat after 1815.

 

If the Council declared war on the Mandalorians from the start, Revan would have had no ground to make the claim that the sith ways were the best.[/Quote]

 

Revan didn't simply say, 'look, the Dark Side is better'. He used careful manipulation and coercion to do that. And when that proved difficult, he turned to torture and more extreme tactics.

[jonathan7]

DY, do you ever think you maybe taking this a little seriously? You may wish to consider that your are being subjective; not that there is anything wrong with that, but consider;

 

Your logic is flawed. Everything began with the Council stressing their authority more than wisdom.

 

Subjective. Thought I don't necessarily disagree on this point.

 

Exactly! Because Revan won the war, most of the jedi supported him. If the Council won the war, the jedi would think that the Council were the best ones to lead the order.

 

Subjective.

 

It's not irrelevant. There is no scenario where the Republic would have won if they had waited for the 'true threat' to reveal itself. The Council never gave their followers a reason to follow them. They just said "We are in command. So we are right." They sound more like sith than jedi to me.

 

Subjective.

 

Exactly! I don't know why you used your own logic against your argument.

 

No, AK, is not saying that you don't have a partial point; he is not conceding this; more agreeing to an extent, but not as far as your over emphasis.

 

If the Council declared war on the Mandalorians from the start, Revan would have had no ground to make the claim that the sith ways were the best.

 

Subjective and as even Yoda pointed out, the future is hard to see fluid and always in motion.

 

Yuthura Ban became a sith because she had a noble cause to end slavery. She became a sith because she saw the jedi do nothing to end the practice, but eventually saw her cause had been lost and abandoned the sith. Revan was allowed a noble cause that allowed him to recieve followers.

 

Again subjective...