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Anakin vs. Revan


thundrfang1

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Revan cannot create an infinite army with the Star Forge, unless he also gets access to a set of Spaarti Cloning Cylinders. The Thrawn Trilogy taught us that to have one without the other is pretty much pointless.

Forget books/comics/whatever else, a lot of people don't read 'em, and that's not mentioned in the games anywhere, a lot of people wouldn't know what you're talking about.

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Boba Fett couldn't win a lightsaber fight against a padawan, much less against the Dark Lord of the Sith! If Vader couldn't chop off Fett's head, then he wouldn't have been a viable option for Sith. He simply wouldn't have been worthy of that title. Besides that, this is a WEIGHTLESS BLADE. Fett couldn't wield one of those. Only Force Sensitive people can, and Boba Fett was not Force Sensitive.

 

....I was under the impression that Boba Fett was Force Sensitive.......

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Well, after some research, it appears I was mistaken. Though wookiepedia does seem to suggest that Vader was toying with Boba in their duels, possibly out of curiosity.

 

 

Anyway, on topic, I vote Revan all the way. Just because Anakin had identity issues all the way up until the end of Episode VI after Luke redeemed him. Sure, Revan had amnesia, but Anakin had his issues without suffering from amnesia. I also believe that Revan had a significantly broader training in the use of the force, and therefore has the edge in all the arenas mentioned, in addition to his innate tactical skills. I suppose one could argue that the amnesia affects Revan's access to that training, but he still, imo, wins. This opinion is most likely based on my bias against Anakin in Episodes I through III.

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Vader also described Sidious as the most powerful sith lord ever,

obviously one of those small continuity errors

The point is just because Anakin/Vader is not more powerful then Sidious and Revan is the most powerful in his age doesn't automatically mean Revan>Anakin.

thats not my point. my saying 'he was the most poweful in his age' was in response to Rabish Bini's comment and is to be taken with my earlier posts about revan having more experience than anakin.

imagine anakin vs a way more experienced average jedi/sith. chances are anakin would cane him. thats pretty much what he did in the jedi temple. he went up against jedi *masters* and came out on top thanks to his sheer power. (and the clones)

my point is that someone with a power level around anakin's and with much more experience and knowlwdge than him would beat him. here is an easier way to put it: ep3 pre-diced anakin/vader vs a non canonical vader who killed obi wan, went on to learn heaps from sidious, and has overthrown him. who do you think would win? now imagine post-diced, potential reduced suit vader vs 'successful' vader. the suit vader would by most chances lose.

 

Sith alchemy is not that useful in battle and it is way to vague of a statement.

sith magic and alchemy is often referred to together. im focusing on the magic. and actually, what if revan used some alchemy to resurrect some dead sith to help in his fight against vader? that would help somewhat wouldnt it.

 

Zannah was able to Sarro because the latter got distracted by his companion Johun who kept getting in the way even when he was leaving to help out the other jedi vs Bane. Zannah needed for him to be off guard before she could kill him.

my mistake then :)

 

There still is zero proof that Revan ever knew the technique because Bane and Zannah had knowledge from not only Revan's holocron but Freedon Nadd's holocron and Belia Darzu's. The most logical choice for where the attack that Zannah used came from is Nadd's because we see his "apprentices" the Ketos use very similar techniques. But either way we can't prove that Revan knew the technique so it would be illogical to assume otherwise.

i know. i was speculating. thats why i said "it is indicated" rather than "it says in..." and why i said "so what if revan did something like that to anakin? or worse as it would likely be?" and i agree that zannah's spell had nothing to do with revan. i was just using her as an example to show what sith sorcery was to people who dont know exactly what it is.

 

Revan cannot create an infinite army with the Star Forge, unless he also gets access to a set of Spaarti Cloning Cylinders. The Thrawn Trilogy taught us that to have one without the other is pretty much pointless.

what if he manned his main fleets with humans and huge supporting fleets with droids? that would get rid of the manpower problem and it would also give revan and his admirals the ability to make many suicide attacks against the imperial fleet, and a huge edge in battle formations and such that would be impossible otherwise. in fact, in theory revan's army could design special kamikaze droid star destroyers with no creature comforts whatsoever, completely maximized for firepower and very specifically designed for the purpose of blowing themselves and the enemy up. they could maybe even do stuff like mimic comm traffic and the like to disguise themselves and manned destroyers. they could also design the kamikaze destroyers to look just like the normal ones in order to confuse the imperials. at first glance, the imperials wouldnt know which groups of destroyers are manned or droid ones.

revan could also send huge fleets of kamikazes to crash into the death star.

wait... why the hell DIDNT revan do this in his actual conquest of the republic?! prehaps he didnt need it... no wait. i see. he wanted to change the republic into a stronger galaxy. and for that he needed a sith empire. and in order for him to create an empire, he needed people.

 

Forget books/comics/whatever else, a lot of people don't read 'em, and that's not mentioned in the games anywhere, a lot of people wouldn't know what you're talking about.

thats their problem!:D actually, for that matter why should we bring up kotor or episode 3? some people wouldnt have played/seen it!

 

Your point being? If they don't understand what I'm talking about, read the Thrawn Trilogy. It is the definitive bright spot in the EU.

i just happened to have borrowed it from my library!:D havnt read it yet though.

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obviously one of those small continuity errors

I believe Vader called him that in the "Death Star" novel.

 

my point is that someone with a power level around anakin's and with much more experience and knowlwdge than him would beat him.

Count Dooku certainly seems to fit into that category. He was the better saber duelist(by that I mean sheer blade work/technical skill) and had more knowledge/mastery in the force then Anakin(he tooled him and obiwan at the same time) but the latter was described to become a complete joke when Anakin went on the offensive.

 

For the record revan wins the force duel, and the all out with a lot difficulty (best to avoid a saber duel) as I explained in my original post.

 

what if he manned his main fleets with humans and huge supporting fleets with droids? that would get rid of the manpower problem and it would also give revan and his admirals the ability to make many suicide attacks against the imperial fleet, and a huge edge in battle formations and such that would be impossible otherwise. in fact, in theory revan's army could design special kamikaze droid star destroyers with no creature comforts whatsoever, completely maximized for firepower and very specifically designed for the purpose of blowing themselves and the enemy up. they could maybe even do stuff like mimic comm traffic and the like to disguise themselves and manned destroyers. they could also design the kamikaze destroyers to look just like the normal ones in order to confuse the imperials. at first glance, the imperials wouldnt know which groups of destroyers are manned or droid ones.

Then one would wonder why the confederacy didn't do this. As much as like the theory we have go by what we know as fact. I can very easily counter this theory with my own theory that the empire creates a device that shuts down the enemy droid. Or I could easily say the droid army is resurrected and they do the exact same thing but better due to the technology advantage. No offense but theories like this are rather poor points because that type of speculation can go both ways. Best to argue with the known and the known is that kotor droids are not in control of their own warships. Hence the reason why an infinite fleet is not valid. However in he could have an infinite SF droid army that would be useful in a strict land battle but that doesn't mean they will automatically win a land battle.

 

wait... why the hell DIDNT revan do this in his actual conquest of the republic?! prehaps he didnt need it... no wait. i see. he wanted to change the republic into a stronger galaxy. and for that he needed a sith empire. and in order for him to create an empire, he needed people.

 

Erm, the kamikaze droid ships would be ramming into the republic ships you know the people who wouldn't oppose his sith empire and probably wouldn't join him. It would make sense to send kamikaze droids ships on the republic warships. So I don't why he would want to keep people from a military that wasn't loyal to him. Hence the reason that a lot of republic ships were lost at Malachor. So that is a hole in the theory.

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Scenario 1: I'd have to say this is a tie. Both of them had to fight with various lightsaber wielders, and they mostly won.

 

Scenario 2: Revan, definitely. Death Star=slow, Stormtroopers=ineffective. Star Forge=reason why the Sith won a war, Sith Troopers=strong in numbers

 

Scenario 3: Revan. He, after all made the thought bomb.

 

Scenario 4: Revan. Unlike Anakin, Revan can actually control his emotions to a point, and Anakin would just be mindless rage.

 

Scenario 5: Revan.

 

This are all due to personal opinions and some hints of bias. :p

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Scenario 1 : Anakin, seriously. He is a master of Djem So who defeated Count Dooku, who is probably the best lightsaber duelist of that time. Why he chooses Djem So, rather than Juyo/Vaapad that uses dark emotions and fear? It is because in Djem So, the greater the midi-chlorian, the stronger the user gets. Also Djem So is like Shien but more offensive. It utilizes powerful counter if the form of critical strikes after succesfully defend an attack. And all of us probably know that Anakin Skywalker has the highest midi-chlorian count. He's the Chosen One. He only lose to our lovely Obi-Wan Kenobi because he's too arrogant to think about anything (think smart, he can jump to left side of Obi-Wan Kenobi and stab him, that's it).

 

Scenario 2 : This could go either way. If he finds Star Forge, then say goodbye for the great Revan. If he don't find it, he could lose. COULD. Remember, Revan is a great tactician (everybody knows that) and as described above, he has Star Forge. Now that is something. Anakin ( I assume this is Vader pre-suit ) as described above, he has Imperial Army. That means something too. But, Revan will absolutely win if the Imperial Army is as stupid as shown in Original Trilogy Movie (they shoot very lame, if you compare them to clone troopers). Revan will only lose if the Imperial Army is as smart as shown in novel.

 

Scenario 3 : I love Anakin/Vader character so much, but at some point I have to admit that pre-suit Anakin's force powers is nothing compared to the great and experienced Revan's force power. Revan wins every time. Sorry for Anakin fans, all of you must face the truth.

 

Scenario 4 : This is not fair. All of you know Anakin loves Padme so much. He will go into force rage if he sees Padme in danger. Even the experienced and powerful Count Dooku can't compare with Anakin if Anakin goes into rage. But I don't say Revan doesn't have a chance. Maybe this could go either way. I only say Anakin MAYBE wins because of his love to Padme. Revan doesn't love Bastila like Anakin loves Padme.

 

Scenario 5 : This should be realized as a comic or novel. It will be very great! This could go either way, but I think Anakin wins 9/10 (I assume all of Imperial's might and resources is used).

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I'm going to try and sound like a ravening lunatic ( I'm not that fond of Anakin) but there are some flaws in your beliefs.

Scenario 1:

 

Scenario 2: Revan, definitely. Death Star=slow, Stormtroopers=ineffective. Star Forge=reason why the Sith won a war, Sith Troopers=strong in numbers

 

Erm, the storm troopers have shown themselves to be very capable outside of the OT movies. Furthermore there are ALOT more storm troopers then then there were sith troopers. The reason being is that the galactic empire was in control of the entire galaxy(which as whole was bigger to due more planets being discovered/populated) so they were the dominant military power while Revan's sith empire never was in that position even after Malak's betrayal. And the sith never won a war using the star the star forge.

 

Scenario 3: Revan. He, after all made the thought bomb.

While I agree that Revan takes this soundly, he did NOT create the thought bomb which is absolutely useless here and he would get himself killed trying the ritual.

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Ugh. Read Allegiance, Betrayal. The Stormtroopers are the best soldiers in the Galaxy. It's not propaganda.

 

Death Star isn't slow. It has what's magically called a Hyperdrive, which allows it to travel at several hundred thousand times the Speed of Light.

 

Thrawn Trilogy states that Droid-Controlled Battle Fleets didn't come into widespread use until after the failure of the Katana Fleet, somewhere around 25 BBY. So Revan is 3975 years off to be able to make a Droid-Controlled Fleet. He can't even use a Slave-Circuited Fleet, since that didn't come into widespread use until the rise of the Katana Fleet, and then subsequently disappeared after the Katana Fleet vanished.

 

Man, I am some kind of EU Deity.

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I believe Vader called him that in the "Death Star" novel.

thats the one

 

Count Dooku certainly seems to fit into that category. He was the better saber duelist(by that I mean sheer blade work/technical skill) and had more knowledge/mastery in the force then Anakin(he tooled him and obiwan at the same time) but the latter was described to become a complete joke when Anakin went on the offensive.

from what ive seen in the expanded universe, dooku never struck me as that powerful. for me its like: theres average jedi, above average jedi (apprentice obi wan, bastila, etc), strong jedi (kavar, master obi wan, kyle katarn, mara jade), and then legendary jedi. (hoth, mace, yoda, revan, anakin, luke)

dooku seemed to fit in 'strong jedi' catergory. he became stronger thanks to the dark side and more experience etc.

 

Then one would wonder why the confederacy didn't do this. As much as like the theory we have go by what we know as fact. I can very easily counter this theory with my own theory that the empire creates a device that shuts down the enemy droid. Or I could easily say the droid army is resurrected and they do the exact same thing but better due to the technology advantage. No offense but theories like this are rather poor points because that type of speculation can go both ways.

sure they could do that, by they cant make as many as revan. which i think is why they didnt.

 

It would make sense to send kamikaze droids ships on the republic warships.
thats what i meant. :)

 

So I don't why he would want to keep people from a military that wasn't loyal to him. Hence the reason that a lot of republic ships were lost at Malachor. So that is a hole in the theory.

um, i cant seem to undertsand what you are saying... did you miss some words or punctuation? that or my brain is on holiday.(probably the latter :xp: )

 

Scenario 3: Revan. He, after all made the thought bomb.

remember: revan knew how to create thought bombs. we dont know if he ever used any. (if he did, he probably wouldve made someone else do it like bane did)

 

Why he chooses Djem So, rather than Juyo/Vaapad that uses dark emotions and fear? It is because in Djem So, the greater the midi-chlorian, the stronger the user gets. Also Djem So is like Shien but more offensive. It utilizes powerful counter if the form of critical strikes after succesfully defend an attack.

another reason why he chose djem so is that by ep3, juyo was incomplete other than mace's vapaad. and anakin couldnt learn vapaad because mace chooses who to teach it to. and mace knows that anakin has a little problem with his emotions and i think, anakin would be a prime candidate to slip into vapaad induced dark side. IMO he couldnt have handled it. its his fiery personality. (

Shien is my favorite k2 saber style. followed by ataru. i chose shien because i found it effective for my style of play, and i like the principles of it.

 

Scenario 2 : This could go either way. If he finds Star Forge, then say goodbye for the great Revan. If he don't find it, he could lose. COULD. Remember, Revan is a great tactician (everybody knows that) and as described above, he has Star Forge. Now that is something. Anakin ( I assume this is Vader pre-suit ) as described above, he has Imperial Army. That means something too. But, Revan will absolutely win if the Imperial Army is as stupid as shown in Original Trilogy Movie (they shoot very lame, if you compare them to clone troopers). Revan will only lose if the Imperial Army is as smart as shown in novel.

i dont think they are stupid as in the OT. i hate the stormies, but i think they stink in the OT because the movies are old, and they didnt pay attention to that too much. its later when they made the books they realised, wow, stormtroopers are really useless! i (i mean, come on. in rotj, battle of endor. if those troops were the "empire's finest" as emperor says...)

 

Thrawn Trilogy states that Droid-Controlled Battle Fleets didn't come into widespread use until after the failure of the Katana Fleet, somewhere around 25 BBY. So Revan is 3975 years off to be able to make a Droid-Controlled Fleet. He can't even use a Slave-Circuited Fleet, since that didn't come into widespread use until the rise of the Katana Fleet, and then subsequently disappeared after the Katana Fleet vanished.

havnt heard of katana fleet yet... still havnt gotten round to reading thrawn trilogy yet. and id check wookiepedia, but i hate spoilers. im also trying to get outbound flight from my libraray.

 

Man, I am some kind of EU Deity.

eeeheh. youre not the only one around here man. this *is* lucasforums after all. (not saying i am. people have different knowledge levels. i dont know where mine would stand. :) )

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thats their problem!:D actually, for that matter why should we bring up kotor or episode 3? some people wouldnt have played/seen it!

The difference there being, just about EVERYONE on this forum has seen Ep 3 and played KotOR, it is a KotOR forum, after all

 

Man, I am some kind of EU Deity.

Yes, yes you are.

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What makes you think Revan is all that powerful? He was described as a brilliant strategist, and certainly a very powerful Jedi, but other than Kreia's fetishistic fixation on him, there's nothing to suggest he's all that powerful. The Law of Conservation of Ninjutsu is the real reason why Revan was able to get through all those Dark Jedi. Darth Bane understood this, which is why he created the Rule of Two, so that from then on, all Sith would be more powerful than Jedi.

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What makes you think Revan is all that powerful? He was described as a brilliant strategist, and certainly a very powerful Jedi, but other than Kreia's fetishistic fixation on him, there's nothing to suggest he's all that powerful. The Law of Conservation of Ninjutsu is the real reason why Revan was able to get through all those Dark Jedi. Darth Bane understood this, which is why he created the Rule of Two, so that from then on, all Sith would be more powerful than Jedi.

what makes you think anakin is so powerful? apart from having outrageous force potential and raw power, he never acheived it.

think about it: his potential was cut down, he lost his limbs, was burnt alive, relies on a suit that was designed to not be as good as it should be to live, was totally manipulated by sidious (a fact that he acknowledges), killed the absolute love of his life (and in his mind, his kid) has no friends or relationships other than a wrinkly old sadistic prune, thus, he hates himself, like sion, is emo and deformed, and is broken inside. i could go on about how revan was a plain better person than anakin (but i have no doubt that revan wouldve also been arrogant to some point). but this is about power.

so then take them at the apexes of their power: anakin's potential was reduced. he was still formidable, and learnt much from sidious, but he never became as powerful as he couldve been, (even the cut down potential).

luke was able to defeat him with such little jedi training. (ive heard luke had the same amount of power as his father)

compare with revan: has heaps of force potential (not as much as anakin and luke) but strong. champion of the jedi order at the time. has access to jedi archives and has a strong hunger to learn to go with it. he learns from many jedi masters, to get good at everything. (probably an over achiever)

now he goes of to war. visiting many planets and has a lot of resources at his command. he can go do stuff without the council breathing down on his neck. for example if the war takes him to some planet with some dark and ancient temple, he can run around in it as much as he wants.

then he turns to the dark side... now he has access to trayus and i have no doubt he wouldve gone crazy in there. he obviosly learnt crazy sith teachings, new powers and abilities, and goodness knows what else is in there. so he excels at light, and now has knowledge of the dark. now, he would have gone to korriban or wherever and slaughtered the previous dark lord in single combat. that would mean he had enough skill in the dark (possibly) to do so. now, he has a war to fight and has no shortage of opportunities to try out his newfound sithly ruthlessness, tactics, and principles. then he loses his memory and becomes a stronger jedi than what he was before (seems to be a recurring trend with jedi...).

he goes and defeats malak, and now he has a girlfriend, which is nice and would help emotianally etc. he then regains his all lost memory and goes off to learn MORE at trayus and runs off to fight the unknown enemy. im not saying hes a god, im saying that so far, he seems to have gotten more powerful than anakin did.

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Hardly. There's no reason to believe Anakin lost any power after Mustafar, except maybe his confidence. Being a good person doesn't make you more powerful in the Force, unfortunately, as proved by Jorus C'baoth, who was an incredibly powerful Jedi despite being an arrogant scumbag.

 

The Suit can be modified. He doesn't have to wear it all the time, thus meaning it can be altered, modified. Rebuilt. It obviously had at least one major redesign, as evidenced by the differences between the Ep. 3 suit and the OT suit.

 

How does being manipulated by Sidious have anything to do with this? That's kind of what Sidious did to everyone.

 

Also, Luke only defeated him by going into a Force-enhanced rage. Vader obliterated him on Bespin and was winning on the Death Star II. It wasn't an 'easy victory' for Luke.

 

Also, you can't 'Excel at Light' and be Good at the Dark. They're a mutually exclusive power source. You can't simultaneously serve the Force and subjugate it.

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Revan is better then Anakin, you grandpas!

Anakin was just a slacker, messing around here and there thinking he's important. He never trained as he should, he never respected orders as he should, he was weak and got fooled by Sidious.

Compare Anakin's brains with Revan's! Vader was clouded. Revan was always thinking pretty much the same.

 

Btw... R-E-V-A-N; V-A-D-E-R... V-V, E-E, R-R, A-A, D/N...

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Hardly. There's no reason to believe Anakin lost any power after Mustafar, except maybe his confidence.
midichlorians.

why else would they bother mentioning anakin having over 20,000 if it didnt relate to his force potential? in th novel death star, one of the characters had a MC count of 5000, higher than an average human. this caused him to have recurring nightmares (such a cliche) and his force sensitivity caused him to be knocked out when death star blew up planet.

Being a good person doesn't make you more powerful in the Force, unfortunately, as proved by Jorus C'baoth, who was an incredibly powerful Jedi despite being an arrogant scumbag.

thats why i said "but this is about power..."

The Suit can be modified. He doesn't have to wear it all the time, thus meaning it can be altered, modified. Rebuilt. It obviously had at least one major redesign, as evidenced by the differences between the Ep. 3 suit and the OT suit.
in dark lord: the rise of darth vader, he hates the suit.(im pretty sure)

How does being manipulated by Sidious have anything to do with this? That's kind of what Sidious did to everyone.

smarts. i doubt revan wouldve been so easily manipulated. why? because he was a manipulator himself! (i bet he also inherited some of it from kreia:lol:)

Also, Luke only defeated him by going into a Force-enhanced rage. Vader obliterated him on Bespin and was winning on the Death Star II. It wasn't an 'easy victory' for Luke.

i know. but then why didnt vader go into rage as well? as the chosen one, and learning from sidious of the dark side for twenty years he should be able to whoop inexperienced luke's butt and disarm him.

Also, you can't 'Excel at Light' and be Good at the Dark. They're a mutually exclusive power source. You can't simultaneously serve the Force and subjugate it.
i just meant he had lightside abilities as well as darkside abilities. you can have those together. and i disagree. revan's understanding of the dark side of the force was this: he knew the dark side held strength. he could use it and become extremely powerful. but he knew the it couldnt be 'controlled'. to use the dark side is to be enslaved by it. (thinking otherwise was idiocy to him)
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