Proposition 8: Good or Bad?

[JediMaster12]

I dunno, it's the internet, everything is virtual.

 

Seriously though, yeah, I am saying that it's better to let it go slowly, but more to the point, what I'm saying is that it's best to let a society progress at the rate it's people feel comfortable with. Mao did some great stuff for China, just as Stalin did by bringing an essentially farming nation into world power status very quickly. But it certainly wasn't a kind transition on the people.

But to which people are you referring to? I would thing the proletariat would be pleased as punch for change.

 

Yup, that's been one of the biggest setbacks to the gay-rights movements, is that they have often pushed too hard and wanted too quickly, and they are getting quite the backlash for it.

Funny thing is though if people didn't push too hard, it would never have gotten people on board anyway. Look at women's right to vote. They pushed hard and history wasn't knid to them but in the end they prevailed.

 

I would think that it works both ways. You have to push but then not push. Sort of like picking your battles to fight. I would think either or on the extremes would not be good.

 

mimartin: You are absolutely right in the passing of hatreds to the young. I've seen it myself how much kids mimic theirparents and think it's ok.

[El Sitherino]

Which is why they're attempting to teach things in classes.

 

Funny how the discussion answered that question.

 

You see the reason they teach these things in school is not because they want to remove the responsibility from the parents, rather they wish to compensate for the irresponsibility. I can understand the feeling of threat to one's measure as a parent however, I feel comfortable in the knowledge that my children will not have to worry about the kind of hate I and others have had to tolerate or endure.

[Jae Onasi]

I think that can be covered in the standard 'hating people is wrong' socialization that happens in school, however. I don't want the school to be getting in the business of discussing morality of different kinds of sex when we can't even do a good job teaching basic reading and math.

[El Sitherino]

I think that can be covered in the standard 'hating people is wrong' socialization that happens in school, however. I don't want the school to be getting in the business of discussing morality of different kinds of sex when we can't even do a good job teaching basic reading and math.

 

I don't really think any initiative will be taken until the school system as a whole has gotten worked out. By which time improvements of base subjects will be made.

[Web Rider]

Funny thing is though if people didn't push too hard, it would never have gotten people on board anyway. Look at women's right to vote. They pushed hard and history wasn't knid to them but in the end they prevailed.

 

I would think that it works both ways. You have to push but then not push. Sort of like picking your battles to fight. I would think either or on the extremes would not be good.

 

I'm not entirely familiar with the roots of the gay rights movements, but it at the very most, a post-WWII movement. Black(and other races) civil rights and women's civil rights have been issues since the dawn of the nation.

 

They were slow and presistant, and when given the chance, they pushed hard. From from it's very dawning, the gay rights movements have come on strong with messages of "we're queer, we're here, get used to it!" This is not a message of cooperation, this is not a message that they seek equal rights.

 

It is a message saying that we will give them rights, regardless of our feelings on the subject, because they told us to do so. Not exactly a strong way to build cooperation between two groups of people. I'm a supporter of homosexual rights but there are time when I'm even put off by the divisivness of their message, it really often comes off to me no different than Bush's "You're either with me or against me."

[Tommycat]

In AZ we have the same thing, only it's called prop 102. I intend on voting it down.

 

I kind of agree with Web Rider on this one. in that the GLBT community has been more or less in everyone's face about the issue rather than attempting a more agreeable approach. Trust me I fully support people marrying who they love. That is their choice, but lets face it, we're talking thousands of years of morality being put to task. It's also people's subconsious prejudices. They may not even have a problems with homosexuality, but just crossing that line of making it more "normal" is tough for most.

[JediMaster12]

Web Rider: Actually I disagree with the GLBT community coming in hard etc. from the beginning. Before it became the issue it is now, most lived in secret or in the closet so to speak. If it got out there usually was retaliation and not in the nice way. That was my take on it unless you mean when the gay rights issue became a full fledged cause.

 

On a different note, I voted yesterday. My campus has an early voting poll location in our student union so I went in and vote. A good thing I did because I voted no on Prop 8 and I would have had the Inquisition after me aka my family. Nice thing is they didn't ask me who or what I voted for so in some cases voting is private. Anyway I voted no on the proposition because I do see it as a trampling on rights. I like fair play yes and I don't see this prop as one.

[EnderWiggin]

It is neither right nor privilege for any government to persecute it's citizens based on personal morals and ideology. It is the right of every (wo)man to pursue life without impeding on another. If they are doing no personal harm there can be no crime, therefore nothing to prohibit.

 

There was a time and place in the US where people understood and accepted this ideal.

 

Amen.

 

_EW_

[GarfieldJL]

I actually wouldn't have a problem with proposition 9, as long as there was the following included in it.

 

 

That the legal term of legal partnership (or whatever you call it) was added to the bill and that the rights and priviledges of marriage would also apply to legal partnership.

 

In all honesty, this is a sticky issue and neither side should be going on and on about it being "Their way or the highway."

[JediMaster12]

I agree on that Garfield. Prop 8 really is becoming a hotbed and in fact today at my university, there is an evangelical preaching and condemning everyone. If I remember correctly and jonathan has mentioned it before, somewhere in the Bible we have no right to judge our fellow man. Of course the main rule I try to follow is Love thy neighbor as thyself. Jonathan's siggie also is great truth about love. Heck all you need is love.

[Web Rider]

I actually wouldn't have a problem with proposition 9, as long as there was the following included in it.

 

That the legal term of legal partnership (or whatever you call it) was added to the bill and that the rights and priviledges of marriage would also apply to legal partnership.

 

In all honesty, this is a sticky issue and neither side should be going on and on about it being "Their way or the highway."

 

It's prop 8. And what exactly is a "legal partnership"? Is it a socially lee important but legally equivalent marriage for "they gays"?

 

Allowing homosexuals to marry isn't just for the legal benefits. It's also for the social things that come with it. When you look at a (ideal) married couple, there's all kinds of "dawwww" stuff you feel. When you look at a partnership, these same things do not come to mind. Otherwise AOL's partnership with Time Warner would give you all sorts of fuzzy feelings.

 

Edit: doublepost, whatever, Prop 8 did not pass, 500k vote margin unless the abentee and provisional vote change that.

 

Please click in the lower right corner the you may: edit.... link to edit your posts instead of double posting. --Jae

[Litofsky]

Wikipedia disagrees, Web. Fools. Who are (they) to say who a person can or cannot marry? However, as you said, quite a few absentee ballots remain to be counted, and they could turn the tide.

[Nedak]

No no no no no no no

[Web Rider]

Wikipedia disagrees, Web. Fools. Who are (they) to say who a person can or cannot marry? However, as you said, quite a few absentee ballots remain to be counted, and they could turn the tide.

 

Sorry, Prop 8's language always made my head spin, yes=no marriage, no=yes marriage.

[Corinthian]

Good to see it.

[Arcesious]

My parents told me Proposition 8 passed... Why are civil rights even held to a vote anyways?

 

My dad said: "Now the gays want to bring it to court! The people voted. They don't want gay marriage, and that's it!"

My mother said: "Yes, the people voted. Those spoiled brats... When will they ever just give up?!" /exact words

 

It's sad to hear people I should look up to and think of as wise saying these offensive and stupid things.

I just nodded my head and went to my room to play games and forget about it so as not to let it ruin my day.

[Rev7]

I am pretty happy to see that it passed.

[EnderWiggin]

Good to see it.

 

 

I am pretty happy to see that it passed.

 

Do you have a reason why? Or are you just regurgitating your parents' points of view?

 

@Everyone else

Don't give up hope just yet. According to wikipedia:

the vote was 52.5% in favor of Proposition 8 and 47.5% against, with a difference of about 504,000 votes;[7] as many as 3 million absentee and provisional ballots remain to be counted.

 

It hasn't been called yet.

 

_EW_

[zelda 41]

God, it just makes me so mad to see that we cannot be equal to everyone. What is the problem if two men or two women, who are in love, want to marry? Honestly, does it effect you? Does it honestly offend you enough to have to go out and ban it, after gays and lesbians have fought so long and hard to gain such rights?

 

We claim "Every man is created equal"; unless you're gay. :l

[EnderWiggin]

We claim "Every man is created equal"; unless you're gay. :l

 

Damn straight, Zelda.

 

_EW_

[Rev7]

Do you have a reason why? Or are you just regurgitating your parents' points of view?

Wow there buddy. I think that it is really funny that people here seem to think that I go off of what my parents think. Amazing...I have my own mind and I have my own view.

 

Civil Rights. Yes everybody deserves them. I can so tell that you are gonna bash me on this because if I believe that everybody deserves them then why am I happy to see it pass?

 

One, I am a Conservative Christian--obviously. We all know that explaination. I agree with what the Bible says, call me close minded but that is what I stick to/will stick to.

 

This is a big moral issue--most are. I don't agree with it because I don't see homosexual relationships 'natural', and ethical.

 

I am entitled to my opinion, am I not?

[EnderWiggin]

 

One, I am a Conservative Christian--obviously. We all know that explaination. I agree with what the Bible says, call me close minded but that is what I stick to/will stick to.

 

The bible also says:

Don't cut your hair nor shave.

Kill anyone with a different religion.

Don't wear clothes made of more than one fabric.

 

and lets not forget:

and the pig, which does indeed have hoofs and is cloven-footed, but does not chew the cud and is therefore unclean for you.

 

 

I'm a Christian too - that's why I don't want this to pass.

 

This is a big moral issue--most are. I don't agree with it because I don't see homosexual relationships 'natural', and ethical.

 

Here we go, this is something I'm good at.

 

Naturalistic Fallacy (aka appeal to nature) - things that are natural are not necessarily ethical. Ethics are not determined by what's natural and even if they were, you're still wrong.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_behavior

 

_EW_

[Rogue Nine]

Civil Rights. Yes everybody deserves them.

Ha.

 

I agree with what the Bible says, call me close minded but that is what I stick to/will stick to.

Yeah dude, I follow the Bible too. My favorite passages are Leviticus 25:44 and Deuteronomy 22:22. I follow them everyday. I just got a new shipment from Asia yesterday, lookin' forward to breaking them in.

 

This is a big moral issue--most are. I don't agree with it because I don't see homosexual relationships 'natural', and ethical.

What is so 'unethical' about homosexual people? Are they lesser beings because they're gay? Are they less than you or me?

 

I am entitled to my opinion, am I not?

You are, but we're also entitled to disagree with your rather bigoted opinion.

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

This is a big moral issue

No it isn't, it's just none of your ****ing business.

 

I am entitled to my opinion, am I not?

Sure, as long as you don't start imposing it on other people, which is exactly what prop 8 did.

[Corinthian]

We're not saying they can't boink, but given that Christianity is a religious institution, it seems to me to be rather unconstitutional for the Feds to be telling us that we have to let them taint it.

 

Also, nice way to quote the Bible with no context. Incidentally, what's wrong with either of those passages, Rogue?