vanir Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 The Lebensborn program tried to make politically correct families. In Australia several decades ago Aboriginal children were abducted from their indigenous homes to be brought up politically correctly in Church missions the White Christian Way. This is all nothing new. But clearly it is something backwards... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jae Onasi Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 Kidnapping and moving children to a foster home cannot in any way be construed as 'ideal'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Web Rider Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 The amount of melanocytes in skin cells which determines race has nothing to do with orientation, so race and orientation can't be compared. Orientation is not a genetically inherited trait like race is. Irrelevant. Not my point. My point is that like gay marriage, non-white, and inter-racial marriage was once banned because people thought it was "bad" for children. Remember all that talk that STILL goes on about how mixed children will never know where they belong and be all confused and screwed up? Yeah, same argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanir Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 Kidnapping and moving children to a foster home cannot in any way be construed as 'ideal'. Exactly. I am concerned about any court rulings on this matter, of what is to become of those children deemed in unhealthy environments due to sexual orientation of the parents? There will always be the case of divorcee coming out of the closet as a single parent, what if the other parent is a worse proposition (for example, criminally so) or is not around (dead, left the country, committed suicide when their partner gave them the news). And then where do we draw the line with politically correct parentage? I should also like to make a point for Jae, whose opinions on the matter are perfectly responsible and well reasoned, just a small thing about race and genetics. At present the scientific community firstly (since the mapping of DNA ca.mid-90's) has put the final word on "race" that no greater genetic variation exists outside any cultural or regional group than within the group, ie. race does not exist due to a small body of common ancestral lineage. This secondly places any assertions of racial difference into the political and cultural category only, so racism is a reasonable comparison to any other form of bigotry for example, or a distinction of which is the same as a distinction for any other political and subcultural reasons (such as sexuality). By the same token, no "gay gene" has yet been identified and thus it must be regarded as a subculture rather than a medical disposition (ie. psychological but not psychiatric). Really? http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090616122106.htm Evidence suggestions your claim is wrong. Just because you want to see it as a choice does not make it so. If not "genetic", it is at least widespread enough throughout life to suggest that condemning it isn't going to make it go away. My science group (ranges from PhD physicists to anthropic philosophers) has been studying this article recently. The findings are inconclusive relative to human sexuality, stated in the article. This in no way belies its importance, and the importance of tolerance for good clear thinking in a scientific manner as well as just plain good morality. I'd just like to say I fully support gay couples in all endeavours and with good conscience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insignia_Enithma Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 We outlaw divorce? Since between 41% and 50% of marriages end in divorce in the U.S. I’d say that is more threatening to the “so-called” traditional family than gay marriage. [/Quote] But what of peoples free will, if someone isn't happy in a relationship, marriage or not who are we to say they shouldn't be able to leave that relationship just because a child is involved, if that where the case I think it would do more damage then good. It would be great if ever child would have their biological parents to help raise them, but a single mother, single father, step-parent, adoptive parent or gay parent can raise a child provided they love and care for that child by putting the child’s interest above their own. For the record, I was raised by a single working mother (until age 9, my father left before I was born after 13 years of marriage) and although she is straight I have no doubt she could have done the same if she were gay. Depending on how a Gay Couple come into parenthood (Adoption, Immaculate Conception ect) it would be very easy especially with the latter to love the child and put its needs above there own. In the former, if the child is adopted young, then there shouldn't be to much of a problem. As long as the Gay Couple are in a stable loving relationship and so therefor provide a health environment for a child to grow up in, the child should turn out great. This is a very curious statement for several reasons - firstly, please qualify what you mean by "open minded" and why this is a positive thing? Most people I meet seem to consider themselves open minded - have you ever met a close minded person. Secondly - why is being accepting of people who live alternative life styles necessarily a good thing? What happens if we become so "open minded" that a Serial Killers alternative life style is "accepted"? I consider someone who is open minded to consider all parts of a new ideal or life style before deeming them good or bad, the same can be applied to religion and all kinds of other things. Even if in the end it turns out they still disagree with the views of certain people ect, as long as they see and recognize the positives and the negatives then I accept they are open. Have I ever met a close minded person? Yes several hundred all who made my time in school a living hell and in the fast five years have sent me to hospital, broken my nose and in a gang of up to twenty attacked me. Because my mum was gay and because I was not part of the crowd (I'm not racist for a start). You mean like when we started allowing blacks to marry? Since when is a heterosexual upbringing a positive one? Isn't it just the "default" one? Having gay friends doesn't mean that you can't be against gay marriage. I know a good dozen people who have gay friends, but wouldn't ever want to see them get married. Though heterosexual upbringings are the default, and its is questionable if they are the "best" or most stable. What really is a stable environment for a child to grow up in. I guarantee no situation is 100% perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan7 Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 I consider someone who is open minded to consider all parts of a new ideal or life style before deeming them good or bad, the same can be applied to religion and all kinds of other things. Even if in the end it turns out they still disagree with the views of certain people ect, as long as they see and recognize the positives and the negatives then I accept they are open. So you decide who is "open-minded" and "close minded"? Is this in of itself not "close minded"? The essential part of my point is everyone is close minded to a greater or lesser extent - we are all influenced by our culture, and cannot escape the the fact our minds are bound by our own knowledge and perceptions. Have I ever met a close minded person? Yes several hundred all who made my time in school a living hell and in the fast five years have sent me to hospital, broken my nose and in a gang of up to twenty attacked me. Because my mum was gay and because I was not part of the crowd (I'm not racist for a start). I'm sorry to heat this Somewhat pertinent to topic; New India Government, to repeal anti-gay laws; http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6597715.ece Homosexuality and the animal kingdom; http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/science/article6514861.ece Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insignia_Enithma Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 So you decide who is "open-minded" and "close minded"? Is this in of itself not "close minded"? I guess it could be seen as close minded, in fact I am probably a lot more close minded then I realize sometimes (especially to people I myself see as close minded). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 Have I ever met a close minded person? Yes several hundred all who made my time in school a living hell and in the fast five years have sent me to hospital, broken my nose and in a gang of up to twenty attacked me. Because my mum was gay and because I was not part of the crowd (I'm not racist for a start). Hi. You need to do yourself and society a favor by sending these people to jail or reform school. You can do this by investing in a digital spy cam that you can conceal on your person to record all of this abuse and using the recordings to bring charges against the offenders. You are not helping yourself or anyone else by tolerating violent behavior like that. Make a few of them pay and the rest will think twice before messing with you again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insignia_Enithma Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 Hi. You need to do yourself and society a favor by sending these people to jail or reform school. You can do this by investing in a digital spy cam that you can conceal on your person to record all of this abuse and using the recordings to bring charges against the offenders. You are not helping yourself or anyone else by tolerating violent behavior like that. Make a few of them pay and the rest will think twice before messing with you again. Well, where do I get started. We tried getting the police involved, the school wouldn't do anything, I've even gone to a meating between the board of governors (this is the uk btw) and they said the school had failed the first step (not allowing bullying) and said nothing about helping stop it. One fo the beatings I go t they filmed it an even though the school head saw the video he did very little a slap on the back of the hand. Also I dont have the money for a digital camera, but believe me when my kids (should i have some) go to school I'm going to deal with the whole thing evry harshly, as in police will be involved from the start. I have considered sevral times writing a letter to the school to the BoE but I'm jsut not sure fi that would help... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 You mean to tell me that this ****'s been caught on film and still nothing has been done about it?! Have you gotten a lawyer? If not, then I think it's about time that you hired an attorney, preferably one of the ruthless, slimy variety, and sued the **** out of the school. Sometimes people won't start to behave themselves until you show them that you're damn serious by hiring an attorney and having said attorney contact them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mimartin Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 But what of peoples free will, if someone isn't happy in a relationship, marriage or not who are we to say they shouldn't be able to leave that relationship just because a child is involved, if that where the case I think it would do more damage then good. [/Quote] Context can be your friend. If you read the question I quoted you will see that this is my sarcastic ‘red herring’ reply to a ‘red herring’ question. Depending on how a Gay Couple come into parenthood (Adoption, Immaculate Conception ect) it would be very easy especially with the latter to love the child and put its needs above there own. In the former, if the child is adopted young, then there shouldn't be to much of a problem. As long as the Gay Couple are in a stable loving relationship and so therefor provide a health environment for a child to grow up in, the child should turn out great.[/Quote] Wouldn’t that be the same for any couple, straight or homosexual? Oh, there are no guarantees how the child will grow up no matter the environment. A good environment may give the child a better chance to grow into a responsible adult, but it is also up to the child. Don’t believe me? Explain the difference in adult siblings that grew up in the same environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
True_Avery Posted June 30, 2009 Author Share Posted June 30, 2009 You mean to tell me that this ****'s been caught on film and still nothing has been done about it?! Have you gotten a lawyer? If not, then I think it's about time that you hired an attorney, preferably one of the ruthless, slimy variety, and sued the **** out of the school. Sometimes people won't start to behave themselves until you show them that you're damn serious by hiring an attorney and having said attorney contact them. Good luck. My little cousin was pulled out of school by my aunt because he was physically beaten by a group of kids on a near daily basis. She told the school to get involved, but they said that matters like this were beyond their jurisdiction. She went to the police, and they said there was nothing they could do about school yard high jinx. She just pulled him from school, and I doubt even an attorney would have helped. Besides, she doesn't have the money for one anyway. I got picked on and got into fights in elementary school all the time. My High School is the only school that I've known that didn't put up with that ****, however it was a Charter school and not a Public. Have I ever met a close minded person? Yes several hundred all who made my time in school a living hell and in the fast five years have sent me to hospital, broken my nose and in a gang of up to twenty attacked me. Because my mum was gay and because I was not part of the crowd (I'm not racist for a start). And this would be why I didn't come out of the closet in school, and have not outside of the internet. Granted, my school was incredibly strict on fighting rules (I once almost got expelled for yelling at some kid), a gay kid at a nearby school came out and then a day later was jumped and beaten to death by a mob of kids with bats. Yes, baseball bats. I didn't dare try considering that half of the school's cars had Christian stickers on them. I'm sorry this happened to you, and my wishes go out to you and your mother. My mother is a closet bisexual, so I understand to a degree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insignia_Enithma Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 Good luck. My little cousin was pulled out of school by my aunt because he was physically beaten by a group of kids on a near daily basis. She told the school to get involved, but they said that matters like this were beyond their jurisdiction. She went to the police, and they said there was nothing they could do about school yard high jinx. She just pulled him from school, and I doubt even an attorney would have helped. Besides, she doesn't have the money for one anyway. I got picked on and got into fights in elementary school all the time. My High School is the only school that I've known that didn't put up with that ****, however it was a Charter school and not a Public. And this would be why I didn't come out of the closet in school, and have not outside of the internet. Granted, my school was incredibly strict on fighting rules (I once almost got expelled for yelling at some kid), a gay kid at a nearby school came out and then a day later was jumped and beaten to death by a mob of kids with bats. Yes, baseball bats. I didn't dare try considering that half of the school's cars had christian stickers on them. I'm sorry this happened to you, and my wishes go out to you and your mother. My mother is a closet bisexual, so I understand to a degree. Funny enough six months ago I was pulled out of school, but I was so damaged (thankfully I've had lots of counseling) that I was still very distressed. And thank you for the wishes, it does make me feel a bit happy that there are some people (whoever you really are ) that are actually understanding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediAthos Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 It's so sad that people still act that way, and what's even worse that no one would do anything about it. When in was in high school one of my best friends came out to me as being gay. It was kind of funny but reaction at the time was "okay..and?" He told me that he just wanted to let me know. I didn't have a problem with it then(1996 maybe) and I wouldn't have a problem with it now. I hope, as a parent, that I can raise my children(2 1/2 and 18 months) to be act better than the children that treated the both of you so cruelly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
True_Avery Posted June 30, 2009 Author Share Posted June 30, 2009 Funny enough six months ago I was pulled out of school, but I was so damaged (thankfully I've had lots of counseling) that I was still very distressed. Yeah, I know where you're coming from on that (nowhere near to your degree, but I understand). I was very fragile in kindergarten and elementary school so I basically became my classes' punching bag in every class I was in. I'd either get incredibly angry, or run out of class and hide somewhere on school grounds until school was over. If this was outside of class, it would escalate into a fight. Mother almost pulled me out of school because it was making me an emotional sideshow. Middle school almost got me sent to, and I'm not joking, a nearby school for the delinquent/emotionally unstable children since I could no longer function around other people. Thankfully that didn't happen, but I did get relegated to a counseling classroom separate from the main school. After 4 years of counseling I got over a lot of it, but it left me with a fear of commitment, a hermit attitude, and a very cynical outlook on life. Hopefully you can come out of it better than I did. And thank you for the wishes, it does make me feel a bit happy that there are some people (whoever you really are ) that are actually understanding Glad to be of service then. If you want to continue talking at all, my profile/PM box is always open. I fear I might be taking things off-topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insignia_Enithma Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 Yeah, I know where you're coming from on that (nowhere near to your degree, but I understand). I was very fragile in kindergarten and elementary school so I basically became my classes' punching bag in every class I was in. I'd either get incredibly angry, or run out of class and hide somewhere on school grounds until school was over. If this was outside of class, it would escalate into a fight. Mother almost pulled me out of school because it was making me an emotional sideshow. Middle school almost got me sent to, and I'm not joking, a nearby school for the delinquent/emotionally unstable children since I could no longer function around other people. Thankfully that didn't happen, but I did get relegated to a counseling classroom separate from the main school. After 4 years of counseling I got over a lot of it, but it left me with a fear of commitment, a hermit attitude, and a very cynical outlook on life. Hopefully you can come out of it better than I did. Glad to be of service then. If you want to continue talking at all, my profile/PM box is always open. I fear I might be taking things off-topic. Well those six months out of school have done me good I actually really beefed up to muscle wise, and so now anyone who has picked a fight thinks twice. Yeh I fear we have taken this off topic... what was it we where talking about again? Soemthing about same-sex couples and children right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jae Onasi Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 Let me be clear on this--at NO time should someone resort to violence because of gender issues, race, etc.--that's just nuts, and I'm sorry for anyone who's had to go through horrible things because of it. It is extremely difficult to come out of the closet, and it takes a lot of courage for that. Heck, it's difficult to live in the closet for that matter. I'm not trying to make your life harder if you're gay by asking tough questions about parenting norms. I'm just trying to sort through it all for my own purposes, too. I was raised in a different generation than most of you. My parents' generation was not pro-gay at all. It was considered a disease or aberrant lifestyle in their time. My generation is the first one dealing wth the quandary of whether it should be even considered a normal alternative or not, and I have seen a lot of studies pro and con. Understand that you are asking me to alter thinking on years of upbringing and a very strong religious conviction for a lifestyle that has not been considered a normal alternative except in the last 15 or 20 years or so. I'm honest enough to say I may not be able to fully make the leap that many of the rest of you have on accepting homosexuality itself as something considered normal, especially when it comes to raising kids. That does not mean I consider hating someone for being gay accaptable. I do not. I love my gay family members and friends as much as my straight ones. I will never condone abuse of someone for any reason. If you consider that a fault on my part, I hope you can be forgiving of my failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrrtoken Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 I would like to ask if you have definitive data on that. If this is opinion, that's fine.Gladly. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/02/04/health/main539283.shtml http://www.heritage.org/Research/Family/BG1373.cfm All of this is opinion.It is, but so is the notion that kids would be worse off in a same-sex parented household than a opposite-sex one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allronix Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 The ideal environment is two (or more) loving, stable, responsible ADULTS, as far as I'm concerned. Oh, and when I say the "or more," I mean anything from godparents and grandparents to a stable polyamorus arrangement - though the latter is gonna take some explaining as the tyke grows up. You can be gay, partnered and have your act together, or you could be giving the two bimbos from Absolutely Fabulous a run for their money. You could be heterosexual, married, two jobs, a full fridge, leave no bruises, but destroy a kid with your words. You could also be Ward and June Cleaver reincarnate. But if the kids' physical needs are met and has people who watch out for them, teach them right and wrong, and can take care of themselves as well as the kids? Gender doesn't much matter. the only time it might is if you're a single mom or a lesbian couple with a son or a single dad or gay men with a daughter - the kid could use role models of the same gender, but that's where uncles, aunts, and family friends are a blessing. Children can be cruel, yes. They'll find any damn reason to be. Your average K-12 school is crawling with vicious little sociopaths that could give the Korrban academy stellar recruits. No matter what you do, no matter how much you try, you aren't going to win with those monsters, so factoring them into the decision is a non-issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.