US Health Care Reform

[Ping]

@Ping--you do realize that it's not only the reps that question this president but also independents and even democrats? He's even having problems w/in his own party. Will be interesting to see if they can muster the numbers and will to cut out the reps and other opponents. Frankly, it's a bit too early to write the obit for either party at this point.

 

I have never seen or heard anything to suggest he's having trouble with his own party. Independents, maybe, but not his own party. And frankly, if the Republicans want to stay in the ball game, they ought to swallow their pride and just cooperate for once, instead of spreading misinformation about Obama's health care plan. Spreading misinformation and lies is the lowest someone could possibly go to.

[Totenkopf]

I have never seen or heard anything to suggest he's having trouble with his own party. Independents, maybe, but not his own party. And frankly, if the Republicans want to stay in the ball game, they ought to swallow their pride and just cooperate for once, instead of spreading misinformation about Obama's health care plan. Spreading misinformation and lies is the lowest someone could possibly go to.

 

You've heard of Blue Dog democrats, right? That's one faction. The problem with the whole healthcare debate is that the dems are being dishonest about a great number of things, from types of coverage to ultimate cost. If the reps, among others, don't want to go along with that, that's likely a good thing. If you think that the lib dem's opponents are the only ones not being on the up-and-up, that's a bit naive. Btw, by "swallow their pride cooperate" you seem to be implying "rubber stammping".

[Ping]

You've heard of Blue Dog democrats, right? That's one faction. The problem with the whole healthcare debate is that the dems are being dishonest about a great number of things, from types of coverage to ultimate cost. If the reps, among others, don't want to go along with that, that's likely a good thing. If you think that the lib dem's opponents are the only ones not being on the up-and-up, that's a bit naive. Btw, by "swallow their pride cooperate" you seem to be implying "rubber stammping".

 

I'm not trying to imply rubber stamping, so forgive me for doing so. Also, show me hard evidence that the Dems are lying about health care reform. Do I think they're telling the truth 100%? No, I haven't seen a politician who is 100% honest, but that doesn't mean they're telling a 100% lie. If you honestly believe everything the conservatives say is true, think again. You can't believe everything people say.

[Totenkopf]

Well, first, I didn't say EVERYTHING they said was a lie (100%?). Since you acknowledge that they aren't telling 100% the truth....what does that leave? That you also believe that they are lying about some things. Second, I never claimed to believe 100% of anything anyone has said. There is nothing wrong with a healthy sense of skepticism.

[Ping]

Well, first, I didn't say EVERYTHING they said was a lie (100%?). Since you acknowledge that they aren't telling 100% the truth....what does that leave? That you also believe that they are lying about some things. Second, I never claimed to believe 100% of anything anyone has said. There is nothing wrong with a healthy sense of skepticism.

 

My only thing about the skepticism: your post kind of implied that the Dems were wrong about almost everything, if not everything they say, so that led me to believe that you thought that the Dems lied about everything, so that led to a misunderstanding.

[jonathan7]

My only thing about the skepticism: your post kind of implied that the Dems were wrong about almost everything, if not everything they say, so that led me to believe that you thought that the Dems lied about everything, so that led to a misunderstanding.

 

Well, I'd say fundementally the Republicans think the Democrats are basically wrong, and the Democrats think the Republicans are wrong

[Ulmont]

There's an old saying that I find applies here:

 

"Republicans have nothing but bad ideas, and Democrats have no ideas."

[Totenkopf]

My only thing about the skepticism: your post kind of implied that the Dems were wrong about almost everything, if not everything they say, so that led me to believe that you thought that the Dems lied about everything, so that led to a misunderstanding.

 

 

No prob. This whole healthcare debate is ultimately coming down to a question of private vs govt control of that part of the economy. I think both parties see many of the same problems....incomplete coverage, recision, high premiums, ad nauseam... ...but have funadamentally different approaches to the solution. Many liberals, especially progressives, wish to see the fed govt become even bigger b/c they see the govt as the solution to most of life's problems. Many real conservatives are constantly trying to keep govt from getting inexorably larger. You find both liberals and conservatives, depending on the issues at hand, w/in both parties. While I obviously trend conservative, I don't axiomatically think that all liberals have their heads up their arse about everything (my family, like many, is a mixed lot in that area). Besides, being wrong doesn't mean they're necessarily lying....unless perhaps to themselves.

[Darth Avlectus]

What I see happening that I don't like about it, is the bureaucracy in the insurance companies basically moving under the government's roof and granted certain immunity, as well as the immunity granted doctors on malpractice.

When I am told "No it won't happen" and yet I see a proposed mushrooming in the size, involvement, and power of government, I am left frowning. I just don't see any way around these.

[JediAthos]

The Senate released their version of a healthcare reform bill today. Among the points of the bill are:

 

-Designed to be implemented over 10 years costing $856 billion dollars payed for by cuts in govt. programs and new taxes and fees

 

-Requires all individuals to purchase healthcare or pay a fine with those who cannot afford premiums being exempt.

 

-language prohibiting insurance company practices such as charging people more who have more serious health problems

 

-the ability for consumers to shop and compare plans via new insurance exchanges, expansion of Medicaid and caps on yearly health care costs.

 

-provisions to keep illegal immigrants from obtaining coverage via the insurance exchanges

 

-Instead of a govt. insurance option the plan proposes a system of member owned co-ops

 

-Prevents federal funds for being used for abortions except in cases of rape, incest, or medical danger to the mother's life however plans purchased through the insurance exchange could offer coverage for abortions provided no federal subsidies are used.

 

-everyone covered by an employer would learn the full cost of their health coverage as it would be disclosed on the W-2 form beginning next year.

 

full Yahoo! AP article here: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090916/ap_on_go_co/us_health_care_overhaul

 

I have to say I'm not sure that the abortion part of the bill will fly given the strong opinions on the subject. I also don't like the fact that there are no provisions addressing medical malpractice insurance either. I believe that is something that needs to be addressed. I'm also not sure fining people who don't buy coverage is a good idea unless they can reign in how much insurance companies charge for coverage.

 

I do like the idea of reigning in the way insurance companies can charge people who have health conditions. I believe it's borderline criminal the way they do things now.

[mimartin]

Too little and waiting too late to do what really needs to be done. Special Interest and Big Business has watered down any meaningful reform and we have allowed ourselves to be compromised into more of the same old same. Too bad, before the special interest and big business money started rolling in and using scare tactics there was a chance for real reform. Instead all we get is a band-aid when a tourniquet is required. Typical American response, let’s do as little as possible and hope for the best. Why am I not surprised?

[Jae Onasi]

We'll have to see what the House version looks like--I think it goes quite a bit farther than the Senate version. Then they'll have to resolve the differences to get something passed. I definitely want to see tort reform, too.

[Darth Avlectus]

REQUIRED to have ins or pay a fine? That sucks. Why did I have a feeling THIS was going to fly? OH wait, b/c $$$ talks and BS walks.

 

Y'know, mimartin, I liked your proposed idea better: just don't give emergency care to those who don't have any coverage. Yes, I know I'm in that crowd, but honestly, I can pay for ins. if I ever need it.

[Totenkopf]

I don't know what they'll eventually try to pass in the end, but it appears that Reid and company intend to use the "nuke" option if they can't muster enough votes the "normal" way. Frankly, government controlled options should be a non-starter. Regulation is one thing, but having the govt actually run it is nonviable in the end. It has become sad that many Americans seem to believe "if but for govt action, my life would be so hard/suck so bad". Tort reform, allowing insurance companies to sell across state lines to increase competition and some tighter regulations (no recision, portability, etc...) is really all that's needed. Should anyone fall through those "cracks", the net you'd need to cast would be much smaller.

 

Perhaps, as a kind of adjunct, med school costs should be driven down to encourage more people do think of being a doctor as not an overly expensive option. All the tech and govt promises in the world mean squat w/o the personell to carry them out.

[mimartin]

Y'know, mimartin, I liked your proposed idea better: just don't give emergency care to those who don't have any coverage.[/Quote] Well even if everyone buys insurance under the Senate’s plan we will still be paying for the uninsured through our insurance premiums. Just they will not be legalized Americans. You think Emergency rooms are going to turn away illegal aliens? No, so we will still be paying for the uninsured. Sure keeping the illegal’s off the roles politically sounds good, at least until you really think about it. We should make them pay too and not get a free ride. Better yet, enforce our own immigration laws.

[Totenkopf]

.... We should make them pay too and not get a free ride. Better yet, enforce our own immigration laws.

 

That's too true. Send them home and let them come in the nornmal way. As to businesses hiring them......fine 'em worse if need be (ie jail time).

[Jae Onasi]

If they're illegals, bill the country they're still citizens of and them. IIRC, when a citizen from a country with universal health care has an emergency in the US (if they're on vacation in the US and have an accident for instance), their country's health care system gets billed.

[Darth Avlectus]

^^^Even if mexico is like #12 or 13 place economy in the world, Mexico is broke, no? Do you really think we're going to see anything from them?

 

Well even if everyone buys insurance under the Senate’s plan we will still be paying for the uninsured through our insurance premiums. Just they will not be legalized Americans. You think Emergency rooms are going to turn away illegal aliens? No, so we will still be paying for the uninsured. Sure keeping the illegal’s off the roles politically sounds good, at least until you really think about it. We should make them pay too and not get a free ride. Better yet, enforce our own immigration laws.

 

Yeah tell me about it. I see those big paint vans with worried drivers that follow the nice car with a license plate that says Garcia or such. If our economy did not foster an undercurrent of such reliance upon "ultra-cheap labor", enforcing our immigration laws might become more feasible.

 

Good luck getting them to pay anything, though. If the way they leapfrog around in car accident cases (at least in northern NV) is any indication, you'd have it easier trying to record a boxing match between shrek and bigfoot. They play a game of attrition with the authorities, with plaintiffs, and prosecutors in court. Even should you win, they will never pay you anything.

 

@ Totenkopf: Unfortunately many of them who have nowhere to go already do end up in jail. Which is costing us money that way. So we're getting shafted one way or the other. Sucks.

[jonathan7]

If they're illegals, bill the country they're still citizens of and them. IIRC, when a citizen from a country with universal health care has an emergency in the US (if they're on vacation in the US and have an accident for instance), their country's health care system gets billed.

 

I know quite abit about this after my dad was sick in the U.S - I also confess your healthcare system did not leave me impressed at all, quite frankly it's crap when compared to the U.K.

 

Not in the case of the UK, the British Government would not pay for the treatment of a Brit in America. A British Citizen abroad is in charge of there own health bills - the thinking, I presume is, if an individual is abroad then they are rich enough to pay the bill for insurance. Although within the EU there are reciprical healthcare agreements, so you don't need it when traveling to some parts of the EU such as France. You totally need it when abroad; especially the US where quite frankly everything is stupidly expensive (my dad who is a Doctor commented how outrageous his bill for even basic consultations cost; and the real cost of what he was being given was peanuts).

[JediAthos]

I know quite abit about this after my dad was sick in the U.S - I also confess your healthcare system did not leave me impressed at all, quite frankly it's crap when compared to the U.K.

 

Not in the case of the UK, the British Government would not pay for the treatment of a Brit in America. A British Citizen abroad is in charge of there own health bills - the thinking, I presume is, if an individual is abroad then they are rich enough to pay the bill for insurance. Although within the EU there are reciprical healthcare agreements, so you don't need it when traveling to some parts of the EU such as France. You totally need it when abroad; especially the US where quite frankly everything is stupidly expensive (my dad who is a Doctor commented how outrageous his bill for even basic consultations cost; and the real cost of what he was being given was peanuts).

 

 

I couldn't agree with you more about the costs here in the States. I am fortunate in that I have really good coverage from my employer, which incidentally is a medical imaging manufacturer, but I see what the doctor bills the insurance company for just for office visits for my kids and it's crazy. We paid something in the neighborhood of almost $500.00 for an emergency room visit for my son and that was without an ambulance ride.

 

It amazes me that they can charge so much, but I also know that malpractice insurance costs help drive up the prices and I"m sure the economy doesn't help either but I've always felt if other countries can keep their healthcare costs reasonable we should be able to do it too, but I think mimartin made a very good point about special interests, and money and whatnot that has us in the state we're in now with healthcare.

[jonathan7]

Interestingly my dad did want to convey to you all that should any American need Emergency Health Care in the UK you have it free and no questions asked - unlike Brits in America...

[mimartin]

Can’t speak for today, but in 1990 I dislocated my shoulder for the first time (happened a lot since) in Lynkland (also know as Australia). Sydney to be precise. Was in and out of the emergency room in 45 mins and the cost to me was nothing. Here I would have spent the entire day in the emergency room and I don’t want to even think of the cost. In America when I dislocate my shoulder I put it back myself.

[Darth333]

If there is something I wouldn't give up (and don't mind paying taxes for) in Canada it is the universal health care.

 

As for the lies I've seen in the US news concerning old people, dad is well in his 80's, has serious health problems and receives more care than he even wants - he has to sign-off every time he wants to refuse some services - and mom, also over 75, got non-urgent hip replacement surgery within 3-4 weeks following diagnostic. One of my aunts who is 79 is currently receiving care 8 hours/day at home without worrying about the costs (it took only one phone call and a two-day delay to arrange).

 

Personally, when I need to see a doctor, I just show up at the local clinic and can normally see one within 20min - 1hour (a nurse usually makes an evaluation within 10 minutes at the clinic I visit ) and all I need to do is show my provincial health insurance card which is renewed every five years at the same time as my driving permit. If you go to a hospital emergency it can be longer if it is not a real emergency, I admit. At least we do have some "peace of mind" when we're sick, regardless of status and revenues.

 

We pay higher taxes but they include a lot of other services (apart medical related services such as medivac from remote regions, which can easily be over +2000km from the nearest centre, sex change surgery and abortion ): university is dirt cheap (an MBA in a worldwide recognized institution costs me $7500), for those who have children in Quebec, daycare is $7/day/child, and there's some more . For the worries it takes away, I don't mind paying higher taxes (One of my uncles - hardly insurable with the private sector as he was over 65 - got sick in the US and got a +50k bill for a few days...that's a lot of years of taxes if you consider only the health care portion we pay here...) Our "good Samaritan" laws might also somewhat help with the bills as the crazy lawsuits amounts in the US must be in for something too. I remember one of my torts teachers saying that "at that price, he would accept to get his four limbs broken, not just one!" ...or that he would jump in the "french fries oil" willingly about an award given for some coffee dropped on someone's lap).

 

As for illegal aliens... most of the time, transportation companies end up paying the bill due to our Immigration Act (unless illegal aliens come from the US, it requires an aircraft or ship to get to Canada... Don't get me started on this as I used to represent airlines Suing foreign states isn't usually an option as they have immunity here. I do understand that the US situation might be different in that regard though (@ Jae: dunno about the US but states can't be held liable for such things here). In any event, we're also only 1/10th of the US population but on a larger territory.

[Q]

Meh, I really don't know what to think about all of this.

 

I'll readily acknowledge, however, that the #1 goal for many people in this country (myself included) is to stay healthy so that we don't go bankrupt. I don't think that fining/penalizing people who can't afford or otherwise don't have coverage as the president has threatened to do is the right way to go about it, though.

[mimartin]

I don't think that fining/penalizing people who can't afford or otherwise don't have coverage as the president has threatened to do is the right way to go about it, though.

That is not what the President is suggesting. That is what the talking heads say (lie) about him saying). What the Senate in the case is saying is they will fine someone that can afford it, but choices not to purchase health coverage.