Why I Hate KotOR and TOR

[Sabretooth]

Yes. I dunno, I know I didn't see it coming but then again I wasn't paying the utmost attention on my character's tale and more on the whole galaxy at turmoil around my head. Some other people claim it was blatant obvious.

 

Gotta agree with this. I wasn't too close with the whole Revan personality cult, and so the superhuge twist just elicited a "huh" from me.

[The Doctor]

Woah woah woah, hold on. You mean Star Wars introduces new stories and concepts that contradict earlier stuff?

 

WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL US THIS SOONER?

[TKA-001]

There is also a unique and distinctive view of the technological apparatus: the huge starships of Ambria, built within the carcasses of giant insects... The plasma cannons instead of blasters... Overall more frail-looking starships in general (like the Sith Battleships and Hogon's freighter).

No sympathy from me, I'm afraid, because I always considered the technology design in TOTJ to be only one or two shades less stupid than this piece of **** from Jedi vs Sith.

 

We see Padawans and Jedi Councils,

...there wasn't a Jedi Council or Jedi apprentices as of TOTJ? And if you're specifically talking about the title Padawan, who cares? It makes virtually no difference.

 

Sith with red (and only red) lightsabers... I mean, it doesn't seem that Exar Kun rebuilt his lightsaber using blue crystals

Who cares? Revan's Sith Order was completely different from Kun's, anyway, and seeing as many or most of the Sith before Kun used swords, he probably wouldn't care what color he uses.

 

I mean, BioWare and Obsidian should get to know the established SW universe before changing it so drastically.

There are plenty of references to the TOTJ series in both KotOR games, so clearly they did do an appropriate about of research.

 

That not only forced a series of assumptions and retcons regarding the timeline, but it also came as a complete disregard for the creators of the Tales of the Jedi, who managed to bring into life an extremely rich storyline.

What is said in either KotOR game about something that occurred in ToTJ that is factually incorrect? So far you haven't illustrated any contradictions, since there's nothing indicating that the differences you speak of were not simply changes made in organization of the Jedi Order (for example) in the forty years since TOTJ.

[Lord Foley]

No sympathy from me, I'm afraid, because I always considered the technology design in TOTJ to be only one or two shades less stupid than this piece of **** from Jedi vs Sith.

 

Not sure I agree with this. If you employ that attitude, the use of lightsabers in a universe this technologically advanced is just as stupid. It's a laser sword, for Christ's sake. A laser sword. Swords aren't even viable today.

[TKA-001]

How has that anything to do with what you quoted there?

[Darth Primus]

No sympathy from me, I'm afraid, because I always considered the technology design in TOTJ to be only one or two shades less stupid than this piece of **** from Jedi vs Sith.

 

Regardless of your taste, my taste, or anyone else's, BioWare and Obsidian spat in the face of the people who got first to this era, by changing everything to make it look more like the Prequels.

 

...there wasn't a Jedi Council or Jedi apprentices as of TOTJ? And if you're specifically talking about the title Padawan, who cares? It makes virtually no difference.

 

Well, I can state otherwise. The Deneba convention, meant to decide how the Jedi would deal with the Krath threat, was presided over by a Jedi Knight, not a master, who could choose to accept the suggestions of the Jedi Masters present, such as Arca Jeth, or not. And look at that, the Watchman of Empress Teta system chose to do exactly that which the Jedi Masters found most dangerous. And yet there was no Jedi Council to put a leash on Ulic.

 

Jedi of the overall era had a great deal of freedom. These may be poor examples, but Exar and Freedon Nadd both found themselves ready to end their training, and declared themselves Jedi Knights. And, at least for Kun, he wasn't directly excluded from the Jedi Order until he seduced the apprentices into attacking their own masters. And who excluded him was not a Jedi Council, but a consensus amongst all Jedi, that did not even come from an assembly of sorts.

 

Well, when one compares TotJ to Jolee's account, one can find several inconsistencies. More than once, Jolee overstates that the Council did exist and was ever-watchful since before the Great Sith War, which was not true, or else Kun would've been hunted much sooner.

 

He also spits the fact that his marriage to Nayama was frowned upon by Jedi. well, there are two prime examples of just the contrary, in the comic series. First, there is the Cathar couple, Sylvar and Crado. They both studied under Jedi Master Vodo Siosk-Baas, and maintained an open relationship. With Crado's fall to the dark side and subsequent death, Sylvar almost fell to the dark side herself, that is true, but no Jedi condemned her attachment to her companion for it. Especially not to the point of actually integrating into the set of Jedi rules a "you-cannot-keep-a-relationshop-with-anyone" one. The other example is actually more broad: Andur Sunrider, and later Nomi herself. Andur was, by the few appearances in the comics, a resepcted Jedi. And he was openly married and even had a daughter. But that posed no problems, he was even invited to learn under Master Thon on Ambria, despite his "outlawed" married status.

 

As for the Jedi apprentices, of course there were. Did I ever say otherwise? Just that they WERE NOT called padawans. And of course it makes a difference. If you wanna contribute to a universe, you should stick to the already established rules. Would you like to read The Lord of the Rings, and see Gandalf always advise Frodo to use the Ring and master its powers, and still see Frodo not be corrupted by it? That would be absurd, in every aspect. As is the game developer's disdain towards TotJ and the unique feel that series contributed to a unique era that deserves to be different from the Prequel Trilogy.

 

Who cares? Revan's Sith Order was completely different from Kun's, anyway, and seeing as many or most of the Sith before Kun used swords, he probably wouldn't care what color he uses.

 

And yet there is not much difference between Revan's Empire and the Sith Order of the Prequels, save one: in the PT, there were only two Sith. Then comes that imbecile retcon, with Revan's holocron sitting on Bane's hand, as he comes up with the Rule of Two. If Revan really felt the Sith's strength wasn't based on numbers, why didn't he instate it? Because then, the players wouldn't get to wade through waves of Classic Prequel Trilogy Sith Lords.

 

There is actually more, the Sith of this era do not sum up to lightsaber colors. You see Naga Sadow, Aleema Keto, Exar Kun, Freedon Nadd, Ommin. What do they have in common? Sith Sorcery. It would broadly be available in that time period: their unique form of Battle Meditation, their contact to Sith spirits, their dark presence becoming so strong that it would make it difficult for lightsiders to focus... Not just Force Lightning and Drain Life.

 

In that period, there are holocrons, Sith spirits, Force secrets, Force-infused amulets, and a very well-definite line between a mere Dark Jedi - such as Ulic - and a true Sith, such as Aleema. But Obsidian and BioWare do not care over such distinctions. Throughout the game, all you face are Dark Jedi (with few exceptions). But all the while they are all referred to as Sith. And the Sith that appear, are indistinguishable from Dark Jedi. Well, what is the chance of a Sith from the time of Exar Kun make it to Revan's Empire? Rather high, I would say. And yet, there is no mention of Sith Sorcery anywhere. Why? Because there is no mention of that in the PT either.

 

There are plenty of references to the TOTJ series in both KotOR games, so clearly they did do an appropriate about of research.

 

They just cite Ulic, Kun and Nomi. How much of a reference is that? Even people who do not know Star Wars know Darth Vader and Han Solo. That is common knowledge. Likewise, people who do not know TotJ may very well have heard of the trio I cited. But that is not necessarily knowing all TotJ. Jolee's accounts, as I said earlier, shows that the developers either did not know squat of TotJ or simply didn't care at all about it (most likely, I believe).

 

For example, Naga Sadow was not at all entombed on Korriban. Why in blazes does his tomb appear there? The same goes for the tomb of Freedon Nadd. Why would there be sumptuous sculptures of the Sith Lord all around? It was built not as homage to Nadd, it was built to contain his evil. It might as well be a cubicle in the jungle, cluttered with Sith junk, with a casket bearing his remains and two others, for Amanoa and Ommin.

 

What is said in either KotOR game about something that occurred in ToTJ that is factually incorrect? So far you haven't illustrated any contradictions, since there's nothing indicating that the differences you speak of were not simply changes made in organization of the Jedi Order (for example) in the forty years since TOTJ.

 

Well, nothing would've stopped Nomi, for instance, from creating a Jedi Council after the War's end. But the Jedi Assembly, in the beginning of the Redemption arc, makes no mention of such. But the games overtly state there was always a Jedi Council, around which all the Order gravitated. That is incorrect, as there was no gathering to order Arca to deal with the Onderon problem, and no Jedi Council spitting orders on Deneba, either. There is even no mention of anything like it, for instance, to preside over the Jedi on Ossus or Dantooine, which is a classical seat of a Council, according to KotOR. And no Jedi Temple on Coruscant, either.

 

The fact of the matter is, the Jedi Order feel KotOR sets about to establish differs in no points from the PT. An oppressive Jedi Council who says what an individual Jedi is supposed to do or not. Jedi who couldn't marry. The usage of the term Padawan. While on TotJ, Jedi went wherever the hell they felt help was needed. They could marry, have children without being condemned for it. Even an apprentice could have a great deal of freedom, as Andur Sunrider demonstrates.

 

Summing everything up, the KotOR era had a great contribution to SW universe. Revan invented the red lightsaber, the Rule of Two, the wedge-shaped capital ships, the modern usage of Darth. Their Jedi invented the term Padawan, their anti-marriage rules, the Jedi Council. And of course, they invented eternal life, which Nadd sought his entire life, and then his afterlife; they invented a one-man Death Star. They invented the stupid plotline "how about we destroy the world.... I mean the Force!".

 

Ooh, and there's the Sith Empire. I mean the True one. The one that waited in the shadows... So little information is said about that, and then TOR comes up with even more inconsistencies, for the sake of MMO's.

 

It is my belief that an intelligent game creator would account for what already existed in the timeline. Make more references that just citations of names and deeds, and an old man that relays stories that are inconsistent with the time he supposedly witnessed. And their storylines are just abhorrent. KotOR II is absurd, KotOR is shallow to the extreme.

[Ctrl Alt Del]

And yet there is not much difference between Revan's Empire and the Sith Order of the Prequels

What Sith Empire of the prequels? The closest we have to it on the first three movies is the Trade Federation. Do you mean the Galactic Empire of the OT?

 

save one: in the PT, there were only two Sith. Then comes that imbecile retcon, with Revan's holocron sitting on Bane's hand, as he comes up with the Rule of Two.

Well, you can't really blame the game for that. It was retconned on the comics later, not on KotOR.

 

If Revan really felt the Sith's strength wasn't based on numbers, why didn't he instate it? Because then, the players wouldn't get to wade through waves of Classic Prequel Trilogy Sith Lords.

There were no waves of Sith Lords in the Prequels. Hell, as you've just said, there were only two at the time, that's not enough even to make ripples.

 

There is actually more, the Sith of this era do not sum up to lightsaber colors. You see Naga Sadow, Aleema Keto, Exar Kun, Freedon Nadd, Ommin. What do they have in common? Sith Sorcery. It would broadly be available in that time period: their unique form of Battle Meditation, their contact to Sith spirits, their dark presence becoming so strong that it would make it difficult for lightsiders to focus... Not just Force Lightning and Drain Life.

There are mentioning of Sith Sorcery and artifacts all around the games, though. While, for gameplay reasons, they might have not been included, the ghost of Ajunta Pall and the fact that the Empire was excavating from the ruins on Korriban show that these factors were present.

 

In that period, there are holocrons, Sith spirits, Force secrets, Force-infused amulets, and a very well-definite line between a mere Dark Jedi - such as Ulic - and a true Sith, such as Aleema. But Obsidian and BioWare do not care over such distinctions. Throughout the game, all you face are Dark Jedi (with few exceptions). But all the while they are all referred to as Sith.

If you replay the game you'll see that several of the "Sith" you meet are named "Dark Jedi", especially on Lehon and the Star Forge.

[TKA-001]

Regardless of your taste, my taste, or anyone else's, BioWare and Obsidian spat in the face of the people who got first to this era, by changing everything to make it look more like the Prequels.

Oh, come on. The battle droids in KotOR have no resemblance to the prequels. The ships do bear some passing resemblances to movie ships, but it really doesn't get obvious outside of the Leviathan, Ravager, Ebon Hawk, and those shuttles in TSL (what's so shocking about the plausibility of vaguely triangle-shaped ships, anyway? It's a very basic idea). Jedi even wear completely different robes in the first game, for crying out loud.

 

Well, I can state otherwise. The Deneba convention, meant to decide how the Jedi would deal with the Krath threat, was presided over by a Jedi Knight, not a master, who could choose to accept the suggestions of the Jedi Masters present, such as Arca Jeth, or not. And look at that, the Watchman of Empress Teta system chose to do exactly that which the Jedi Masters found most dangerous. And yet there was no Jedi Council to put a leash on Ulic.

 

Jedi of the overall era had a great deal of freedom. These may be poor examples, but Exar and Freedon Nadd both found themselves ready to end their training, and declared themselves Jedi Knights. And, at least for Kun, he wasn't directly excluded from the Jedi Order until he seduced the apprentices into attacking their own masters. And who excluded him was not a Jedi Council, but a consensus amongst all Jedi, that did not even come from an assembly of sorts.

 

Well, when one compares TotJ to Jolee's account, one can find several inconsistencies. More than once, Jolee overstates that the Council did exist and was ever-watchful since before the Great Sith War, which was not true, or else Kun would've been hunted much sooner.

Absence of evidence fallacy, I'm afraid.

 

He also spits the fact that his marriage to Nayama was frowned upon by Jedi. well, there are two prime examples of just the contrary, in the comic series. First, there is the Cathar couple, Sylvar and Crado. They both studied under Jedi Master Vodo Siosk-Baas, and maintained an open relationship. With Crado's fall to the dark side and subsequent death, Sylvar almost fell to the dark side herself, that is true, but no Jedi condemned her attachment to her companion for it. Especially not to the point of actually integrating into the set of Jedi rules a "you-cannot-keep-a-relationshop-with-anyone" one. The other example is actually more broad: Andur Sunrider, and later Nomi herself. Andur was, by the few appearances in the comics, a resepcted Jedi. And he was openly married and even had a daughter. But that posed no problems, he was even invited to learn under Master Thon on Ambria, despite his "outlawed" married status.

Who knows? Maybe there was some sort of reform movement trying to sweep through the Jedi Order, and Jolee found himself among those in the receiving end. It's plausible, considering how much more freedom you say individual Jedi had back then (though I'm not sure how they didn't have "freedom" as of KotOR I).

 

As for the Jedi apprentices, of course there were. Did I ever say otherwise? Just that they WERE NOT called padawans. And of course it makes a difference. If you wanna contribute to a universe, you should stick to the already established rules. Would you like to read The Lord of the Rings, and see Gandalf always advise Frodo to use the Ring and master its powers, and still see Frodo not be corrupted by it? That would be absurd, in every aspect.

That analogy has nothing to do with this. You're talking about the presence of the title of "Padawan" like it means some huge inconsistency in the plot or setting. The only reason they weren't called Padawans is that the title hadn't been created in the canon yet, and the terms seem to be interchangeable anyway. And again, the Jedi Order had 40 years to invent the title.

 

And yet there is not much difference between Revan's Empire and the Sith Order of the Prequels, save one: in the PT, there were only two Sith.

Err... That's kinda a really freaking big difference.

 

Then comes that imbecile retcon, with Revan's holocron sitting on Bane's hand, as he comes up with the Rule of Two. If Revan really felt the Sith's strength wasn't based on numbers, why didn't he instate it? Because then, the players wouldn't get to wade through waves of Classic Prequel Trilogy Sith Lords.

Closer inspection of Revan's holocron in Path of Destruction states that he never said there should be a limited number of Sith; only that a Sith Master should only instruct one student, and that the title of Dark Lord should only be held by one individual. Bane only started with those ideas before conceiving of the organization of his own Order.

 

There is actually more, the Sith of this era do not sum up to lightsaber colors. You see Naga Sadow, Aleema Keto, Exar Kun, Freedon Nadd, Ommin. What do they have in common? Sith Sorcery. It would broadly be available in that time period: their unique form of Battle Meditation, their contact to Sith spirits, their dark presence becoming so strong that it would make it difficult for lightsiders to focus... Not just Force Lightning and Drain Life.

This is a completely different Order of Sith with no direct ties to Exar Kun's. What's more, Battle Meditation is pretty bloody obviously in KotOR I and it's supposedly a very rare ability. And since Sith sorcery doesn't really seem to be anything other than a handful of regular Force powers, albeit overpowered and occasionally stupid ones, it's really not that huge a loss.

 

In that period, there are holocrons,

There's a whole damned roomful of them in TSL which are tied very clearly to the plot.

 

Force secrets,

So Darths Sion and Nihilus and the Exile's very unique abilities don't count? Kreia and the Jedi Masters spend plenty of time telling us about them.

 

and a very well-definite line between a mere Dark Jedi - such as Ulic - and a true Sith, such as Aleema.

Wait a minute, Aleema Keto was a Sith, but Ulic wasn't? I seem to recall Ulic being Exar Kun's Sith apprentice, not to mentioned being given the title of a Sith by Marka Ragnos' ghost.

 

But Obsidian and BioWare do not care over such distinctions. Throughout the game, all you face are Dark Jedi (with few exceptions). But all the while they are all referred to as Sith. And the Sith that appear, are indistinguishable from Dark Jedi.

Because Revan's Sith Empire and the Sith Triumvirate are both completely different institutions from those of times past.

 

Well, what is the chance of a Sith from the time of Exar Kun make it to Revan's Empire? Rather high, I would say. And yet, there is no mention of Sith Sorcery anywhere.

Nitpicking. While it isn't called "sorcery", unusual effects and abilities of the Force are rather important to both KotOR games.

 

For example, Naga Sadow was not at all entombed on Korriban. Why in blazes does his tomb appear there?

Because it was built for him, but he never ended up occupying it, seeing as he apparently died on Yavin IV. What's so bad about that? It's not like you can find his sarcophagus in there in KotOR.

 

The same goes for the tomb of Freedon Nadd. Why would there be sumptuous sculptures of the Sith Lord all around? It was built not as homage to Nadd, it was built to contain his evil. It might as well be a cubicle in the jungle, cluttered with Sith junk, with a casket bearing his remains and two others, for Amanoa and Ommin.

What does "built to contain his evil" actually mean? Why would his followers build it to "contain" him?

 

Well, nothing would've stopped Nomi, for instance, from creating a Jedi Council after the War's end. But the Jedi Assembly, in the beginning of the Redemption arc, makes no mention of such. But the games overtly state there was always a Jedi Council, around which all the Order gravitated. That is incorrect, as there was no gathering to order Arca to deal with the Onderon problem, and no Jedi Council spitting orders on Deneba, either. There is even no mention of anything like it, for instance, to preside over the Jedi on Ossus or Dantooine, which is a classical seat of a Council, according to KotOR. And no Jedi Temple on Coruscant, either.

Again, absence of evidence fallacy. The only reason a Jedi Council was not mentioned is that it hadn't been established in the canon yet.

 

Revan invented the red lightsaber

Even supposing that's true, what difference does it make?

 

the wedge-shaped capital ships,

Actually, the designers of those ships are the ones who invented it. There is nothing implausible about the functionality of wedge-shaped capital ships existing thousands of years before the movies.

 

the modern usage of Darth.

So what? He's as good as anyone to invent it.

 

And of course, they invented eternal life, which Nadd sought his entire life, and then his afterlife;

Are you referring to Darth Sion? Sion's power is to stay alive in spite of the ridiculous injuries he had sustained as of TSL. Immortality has nothing to do with it.

 

They invented the stupid plotline "how about we destroy the world.... I mean the Force!".

The mechanics behind Darth Traya's plot and Darth Nihilus & the Exile's powers in TSL are very thoroughly explained and built up to. You're talking like they just pull it randomly out of nowhere. You say that Nihilus' power of Force-draining planetary populations is stupid (note that it has the drawbacks of stripping his humanity and making him a slave to his own hunger). Yet TOTJ has Sith blowing up stars with their Sith magic (but no repercussions). I really don't see a very big difference.

[Jae Onasi]

Remember to keep it civil, folks. We're talking about pixels and fiction, so keep it all in perspective, please.

Thanks.

[Darth Primus]

Oh, come on. The battle droids in KotOR have no resemblance to the prequels. The ships do bear some passing resemblances to movie ships, but it really doesn't get obvious outside of the Leviathan, Ravager, Ebon Hawk, and those shuttles in TSL (what's so shocking about the plausibility of vaguely triangle-shaped ships, anyway? It's a very basic idea). Jedi even wear completely different robes in the first game, for crying out loud.

 

Well, there you gave us just a full list of the most-seen starships on KotOR. All that are not included are the Hammerheads, which show on three or four different parts of the game, and the starfighters.

 

Absence of evidence fallacy, I'm afraid.

 

Not quite. KotOR places the Council(s) as the center of Jedi life and action. Though there is no mention at all of any Council in TotJ.

 

Who knows? Maybe there was some sort of reform movement trying to sweep through the Jedi Order, and Jolee found himself among those in the receiving end. It's plausible, considering how much more freedom you say individual Jedi had back then (though I'm not sure how they didn't have "freedom" as of KotOR I).

 

Poor assumption to be making. The Jedi Order from KotOR is virtually indistinguishable from the Order in the Rise of the Empire Era. That's to assume the Ruusan Reformation did not change anything in the Order itself? In fact, I would say that the Jedi Order would be radically different from the RoE Order up until the Battle of Ruusan, when the Jedi would radically change into what it would be in the time of Obi-wan and Yoda.

 

And KotOR I sets a certain degree of freedom, I agree. But still, everything gravitated around their Jedi Council (see the whole Mandalorian War mess, for instance).

 

The lack of freedom I spoke of is the very existance of a Jedi Council that, rather than a simple advisor, acted as a de facto ruler of the Jedi Order. That concept is alien to TotJ (yes, because it was alien, too, to the OT, but TotJ is set 4000 years before that, whereas KotOR is only 40-50 years away from TotJ) because it is simply never seen anywhere on the series. Yet Jolee places the Jedi Council as the centerpiece of the Order in his counts, too.

 

That analogy has nothing to do with this. You're talking about the presence of the title of "Padawan" like it means some huge inconsistency in the plot or setting. The only reason they weren't called Padawans is that the title hadn't been created in the canon yet, and the terms seem to be interchangeable anyway. And again, the Jedi Order had 40 years to invent the title.

 

OK, so the analogy is really bad regarding the Padawan title, but it applies to pretty much everything else that regards KotOR. Still, the insertion of the term, without any further explanation, leaves a lot to be desired, don't you think? The entry of Padawan on Wookieepedia states:

 

"During and before the Old Sith Wars, Knights and Masters would take on numerous apprentices, training them at their own praxeums or private residences without any direct oversight by a council. Using the term Apprentice to denote their position as a student, many of these students become great Knights and Masters themselves. (...) At some point after the Great Sith War, the High Council was first convened and set in place the bylaws of the Order. During this period, the term Padawan was introduced and Masters were restricted to taking only one at a time

 

The first covenant of the Jedi High Council would hardly be something unworthy of note. And yet, KotOR places no plausible explanation, it is much more of their interest to simply set a Galaxy that merely resembles the Rise of the Empire Era, for money's sake.

 

Err... That's kinda a really freaking big difference.

 

And yet it is only there so a player can wade through waves of RoE era Sith Lords, as I remarked in my post. So if you think it through, it isn't really that big a difference. The fact of the matter is, game creators didn't go to much effort to set a Galaxy at all unique, as is deserving of a time period that is so distant from the RoE.

 

Closer inspection of Revan's holocron in Path of Destruction states that he never said there should be a limited number of Sith; only that a Sith Master should only instruct one student, and that the title of Dark Lord should only be held by one individual. Bane only started with those ideas before conceiving of the organization of his own Order.

 

The title of Dark Lord of the Sith was historically always held by the greatest Sith Lord. Except in the times of Lord Kaan, that, as I see it, should hardly be even considered a true Dark Lord, who changed it as a political maneuver. Revan didn't come up with that "cardinal rule".

 

This is a completely different Order of Sith with no direct ties to Exar Kun's.

 

The KotOR story speaks against you. Revan and Kun drank from the same sources. Kun was guided by Nadd's spirit to Yavin and Korriban, where scrolls, holocrons and Sith spirits taught him the Sith arts. Revan would've been directed to such planets by an alleged Sith Emperor in the Unknown Regions, where he would've been taught the Sith ways by scrolls, holocrons and Sith spirits. Why then there is no mention of any out-of-the-ordinary power for Revan? Hell, he couldn't even sense his apprentice's betrayal, what kind of a Dark Lord is that?

 

What's more, Battle Meditation is pretty bloody obviously in KotOR I and it's supposedly a very rare ability.

 

Yeah. And it's very consistent, too, isn't it? You see a bloody hell of a lot of Jedi Masters, who would've learned from masters as Nomi Sunrider, Thon and Vodo, all of which knew Battle Meditation. And yet none of these masters know it, and it takes an apprentice to learn it, and beat the hell out of the Sith, who learned first from the Masters who learned under Thon, Vodo and Nomi. And, oddly enough, no Sith seems to do it either. I'm not saying every bloody Jedi and Sith should know it. But it seems ridiculous to me that a Jedi "Padawan" would learn it by herself, when even the "great" masters couldn't know squat of it.

 

And since Sith sorcery doesn't really seem to be anything other than a handful of regular Force powers, albeit overpowered and occasionally stupid ones, it's really not that huge a loss.

 

Not "regular" at all. Sith sorcery required physical objects to focus. For example, the Sith amulets, that enabled Kun to destroy the Sith Wyrm. The crystals that triggered a supernova that doomed Ossus. Nadd's remains, that allowed Amanoa to exercise her Battle Meditation during the Battle of Iziz.

 

And yet Sion can take 200 lightsaber hits to the heart and live and Nihilus eats whole planets for breakfast. The only relief, is Malak's usage of the Star Forge to drain life, which could be interpreted as true Sith sorcery, if not for the fact that the SF was not at all created by the Sith, and is simply another excuse for overpowering the final boss.

 

There's a whole damned roomful of them in TSL which are tied very clearly to the plot.

 

Oh, that's right. All the relics Atris rescued from Ossus were Sith holocrons!!! That's excellent too. The only Sith holocron the Jedi knew of as of Ossus' destruction was that which Odan-Urr took from a Sith battleship (it belonged to Sadow himself, if I'm not mistaken). And look at that, the holocron was stolen by Kun, who used it to focus some real Sith sorcery, namely have the Jedi apprentices possessed by Sith spirits.

 

So either she lied all along, and found some way to acquire a treasure trove of Sith artifacts that Sadow himself would envy, or this roomful is also quite misplaced.

 

The only time when Jedi had a sizable number of Sith holocrons was, guess what, the Rise of the Empire Era, stored safely within the Jedi Archives.

 

And the only "interactive" holocron to actually take active role in the game, is Bastila's holocron (if you pick Revan as a darksider in KII). But that is only an oversized, pyramidal holorecorder, because it is not interactive at all.

 

So Darths Sion and Nihilus and the Exile's very unique abilities don't count? Kreia and the Jedi Masters spend plenty of time telling us about them.

 

Yeah, there is that. Kreia says that technique is 'of the Sith', but we don't see it anywhere on TotJ. It doesn't matter, though, since the Sith Empire had 20000 years of life, one bloody Sith might as well have learned something similar.

 

But I find it really absurd. Suddenly, all Sith learn how to do it, just because the Exile did, while they couldn't even learn Battle Meditation before. And Sion's ability is another excuse for overpowering the final boss, too.

 

Wait a minute, Aleema Keto was a Sith, but Ulic wasn't? I seem to recall Ulic being Exar Kun's Sith apprentice, not to mentioned being given the title of a Sith by Marka Ragnos' ghost.

 

I am speaking of Ulic before his duel with Kun. There is no indication of him learning anything that would make him a true Sith before Ragnos' proclamation. He was only given the purpose of a Sith after becoming Kun's apprentice.

 

Because Revan's Sith Empire and the Sith Triumvirate are both completely different institutions from those of times past.

 

Be that as it may, there is nothing that tells Dark Jedi and Sith apart. No garment, especially no technique, no belief. Not even a line such as "dude, if the Dark Jedi are so powerful, I'd never want to have to fight a Sith Lord".

 

Nitpicking. While it isn't called "sorcery", unusual effects and abilities of the Force are rather important to both KotOR games.

 

Battle meditation is not a part of Sith sorcery. Malak's use of the SF is Rakatan sorcery (or whatever). And the Exile's power doesn't resemble true Sith sorcery. Where are the Sith spirits, empowering their summoners? The holocrons, playing an active role throughout the stories? Where is the Sith Alchemy?

 

Because it was built for him, but he never ended up occupying it, seeing as he apparently died on Yavin IV. What's so bad about that? It's not like you can find his sarcophagus in there in KotOR.

 

About Ragnos, your regard would make sense, if not for two facts: the Star Map, mentioned to have always been a guide to the Sith Empire. And there is that pop quiz in KotOR II, where you must take the test to access the training area. One of the questions is: Which Sith Lord is not entombed on Korriban? The alternatives are Marka Ragnos, Naga Sadow, Freedon Nadd and someone else. Neither Sadow nor Freedon Nadd were entombed, and so, at least for Obsidian, they just assumed that because there is a tomb for Sadow, he must've been entombed there anyways.

 

What does "built to contain his evil" actually mean? Why would his followers build it to "contain" him?

 

As for Nadd's tomb on Dxun, it was NOT built by Nadd worshippers. The Onderon palace had a crypt for Nadd, which was built for his worship. But after Amanoa's and Ommin's death, Arca Jeth moved the remains to a tomb built out of Mandalorian iron on Dxun, to remove the evil that drived the Sith on Iziz. And the tomb was breached and sacked first, by Kun. That is how Nadd came to know the future Dark Lord in the first place.

 

Again, absence of evidence fallacy. The only reason a Jedi Council was not mentioned is that it hadn't been established in the canon yet.

 

True, it hadn't been established. But it would make sense for the JO 4000 years before to be radically different to that of the RoE. Which means, no Council can make sense. But KotOR doesn't even bother at the circumstances of the Council's creation. And Jolee says there was a council during the Great Sith Wars. Which there was not.

 

Even supposing that's true, what difference does it make?

 

 

Actually, the designers of those ships are the ones who invented it. There is nothing implausible about the functionality of wedge-shaped capital ships existing thousands of years before the movies.

 

 

So what? He's as good as anyone to invent it.

 

The point of all I said is that KotOR doesn't really feel like KotOR. It feels like the Rise of the Empire. The only things that distinguish it as KotOR are absurd, in my opinion.

 

Are you referring to Darth Sion? Sion's power is to stay alive in spite of the ridiculous injuries he had sustained as of TSL. Immortality has nothing to do with it.

 

That's immortality in a sense. And even Exar Kun could not achieve it. All he managed to do was turn himself into a Sith spirit. And yet, Sion's always known how to do it, according to Wookieepedia.

 

The mechanics behind Darth Traya's plot and Darth Nihilus & the Exile's powers in TSL are very thoroughly explained and built up to. You're talking like they just pull it randomly out of nowhere. You say that Nihilus' power of Force-draining planetary populations is stupid (note that it has the drawbacks of stripping his humanity and making him a slave to his own hunger). Yet TOTJ has Sith blowing up stars with their Sith magic (but no repercussions). I really don't see a very big difference.

 

I do see a VERY big difference. You don't see Sadow blowing up the star in the Coruscant system. We only see that power twice: when Sadow uses it to escape pursuit. It's a dramatic moment, that sets the continuity for the return of the Sith in the form of Freedon Nadd and Exar Kun. And again, when Aleema, a Sith sorceress, is tricked into triggering the supernova in the Cron cluster, that swallows the Jedi learning center on Ossus. Another dramatic moment.

 

And yet, Kreia says that Nihilus' power could be achieved by any Sith introduced into the technique, given time. And not once is the nova-triggering used as a plot excuse. You don't see Sadow machinating the use of his "Death Star" to break the galaxy in half. Nihillus does. And Kreia does too, to an even greater extent. Drawback or no.

[TKA-001]

Not quite. KotOR places the Council(s) as the center of Jedi life and action. Though there is no mention at all of any Council in TotJ.

Which in no way means the Council could not exist then.

 

The Jedi Order from KotOR is virtually indistinguishable from the Order in the Rise of the Empire Era. That's to assume the Ruusan Reformation did not change anything in the Order itself?

The Ruusan Reformation was an abolition of the Jedi role in the Republic military (not to mention a restructuring of the Republic itself) and the centralization of Jedi authority on the Coruscant Temple, rather than multiple temples and enclaves, so there were indeed plenty of differences between the two times.

 

And KotOR I sets a certain degree of freedom, I agree. But still, everything gravitated around their Jedi Council (see the whole Mandalorian War mess, for instance). The lack of freedom I spoke of is the very existance of a Jedi Council that, rather than a simple advisor, acted as a de facto ruler of the Jedi Order.

It gravitated around them, yet Revan was able to create his own faction of Jedi, and go on unauthorized investigations into the Mandalorian War with little Council resistance except some expression of disapproval? Furthermore, the fact that there are multiple Jedi facilities across the galaxy with their own councils means that power was not nearly as centralized around Coruscant as you claim.

 

Furthermore, the High Council was not the "de facto" leaders of the Jedi Order. Their authority was perfectly legitimate and accepted by the Order.

 

The first covenant of the Jedi High Council would hardly be something unworthy of note. And yet, KotOR places no plausible explanation, it is much more of their interest to simply set a Galaxy that merely resembles the Rise of the Empire Era, for money's sake.

You seriously think use of the term "Padawan" was part of their hopes to attract money? Besides, since the term is interchangeable with "apprentice" why is it so terrible for Jolee to call himself a Padawan in hindsight?

 

And yet it is only there so a player can wade through waves of RoE era Sith Lords, as I remarked in my post. So if you think it through, it isn't really that big a difference.

Not a big difference except there are a lot of dark-siders instead of just two. And they are there because this is one of the older Sith Empires, when there were many instead of two.

 

The title of Dark Lord of the Sith was historically always held by the greatest Sith Lord. Except in the times of Lord Kaan, that, as I see it, should hardly be even considered a true Dark Lord, who changed it as a political maneuver. Revan didn't come up with that "cardinal rule".

...which changes nothing. You said that Revan came up with the Rule of Two, and he didn't. Also, the Sith Empire in the Unknown Regions seems to have each member of its Dark Council called a "Dark Lord".

 

The KotOR story speaks against you. Revan and Kun drank from the same sources. Kun was guided by Nadd's spirit to Yavin and Korriban, where scrolls, holocrons and Sith spirits taught him the Sith arts. Revan would've been directed to such planets by an alleged Sith Emperor in the Unknown Regions, where he would've been taught the Sith ways by scrolls, holocrons and Sith spirits.

The story of the games speaks against you. You say Revan "would have" drank from the same sources? He didn't. Exar Kun's training came, as you said, from Nadd's ghost, Korriban, and Yavin. As is made very clear in TSL Revan's knowledge of the dark side came from the Trayus Academy on Malachor V.

 

Why then there is no mention of any out-of-the-ordinary power for Revan?

Perhaps because there is no need for those? Revan is generally considered a pretty compelling character on his own, and whether or not he is has nothing to do with whether he's associated with some special Force powers from a series that is barely connected to his own.

 

Hell, he couldn't even sense his apprentice's betrayal, what kind of a Dark Lord is that?

One who isn't perfect and can't perfectly see the future. You forget that the ancient Sith Lords all got ****ed over on account of being imperfect as well.

 

Are you going to propose that Palpatine was a lousy Sith Lord for falling to Anakin's sacrifice, as well?

 

Yeah. And it's very consistent, too, isn't it? You see a bloody hell of a lot of Jedi Masters, who would've learned from masters as Nomi Sunrider, Thon and Vodo, all of which knew Battle Meditation. And yet none of these masters know it, and it takes an apprentice to learn it, and beat the hell out of the Sith, who learned first from the Masters who learned under Thon, Vodo and Nomi. And, oddly enough, no Sith seems to do it either. I'm not saying every bloody Jedi and Sith should know it. But it seems ridiculous to me that a Jedi "Padawan" would learn it by herself, when even the "great" masters couldn't know squat of it.

It's because Battle Meditation is an ability that certain Force-sensitives just have a natural talent for, just like certain ordinary people have natural sensitivity to the Force. It's not a power that you can just teach to someone, like telekinesis.

 

Not "regular" at all. Sith sorcery required physical objects to focus. For example, the Sith amulets, that enabled Kun to destroy the Sith Wyrm. The crystals that triggered a supernova that doomed Ossus. Nadd's remains, that allowed Amanoa to exercise her Battle Meditation during the Battle of Iziz.

That they are tied to Macguffins doesn't make a whole lot of difference. Most Sith magic powers are offensive energy attacks, illusions and tricks of the mind, and outright copies of regular powers, such as healing.

 

Oh, that's right. All the relics Atris rescued from Ossus were Sith holocrons!!! That's excellent too. The only Sith holocron the Jedi knew of as of Ossus' destruction was that which Odan-Urr took from a Sith battleship (it belonged to Sadow himself, if I'm not mistaken). And look at that, the holocron was stolen by Kun, who used it to focus some real Sith sorcery, namely have the Jedi apprentices possessed by Sith spirits.

Pay attention to what Atris says. She tells the Exile that she sent her followers to scour the galaxy years before TSL to find those holocrons. Most of them probably aren't from Ossus.

 

Yeah, there is that. Kreia says that technique is 'of the Sith', but we don't see it anywhere on TotJ. It doesn't matter, though, since the Sith Empire had 20000 years of life, one bloody Sith might as well have learned something similar.

Why would anyone else have those abilities? A wound in the Force is hard to create out of a person.

 

But I find it really absurd. Suddenly, all Sith learn how to do it, just because the Exile did, while they couldn't even learn Battle Meditation before. And Sion's ability is another excuse for overpowering the final boss, too.

No, all of the Sith do not have the Exile and Nihilus' power. They have it because of what happened to them at Malachor. And again, you haven't at all demonstrated how Sion et al are more ridiculously overpowered than Sith in TOTJ.

 

Be that as it may, there is nothing that tells Dark Jedi and Sith apart. No garment, especially no technique, no belief. Not even a line such as "dude, if the Dark Jedi are so powerful, I'd never want to have to fight a Sith Lord".

That's because "Dark Jedi" is a term that loosely refers for someone with Jedi powers who uses the dark side and does not follow the path of a Jedi. That Sith in Revan's Empire are occasionally called "Dark Jedi" makes no difference of the fact that they technically are Sith, since they have Sith powers, went through training and initiation into the Sith Order, and fight for the Sith Empire.

 

Battle meditation is not a part of Sith sorcery. (1) Malak's use of the SF is Rakatan sorcery (or whatever). (2) And the Exile's power doesn't resemble true Sith sorcery. (3) Where are the Sith spirits, empowering their summoners? (4) The holocrons, playing an active role throughout the stories? (5)

(1) No kidding.

(2) Uhh, no. It's storing Jedi in stasis so he can feed off of their power.

(3) No ****. I never said it was, and frankly, a lot more thought was clearly put into it. More than Sadow's star-destruction power, for example.

(4) I've frankly never been a fan of TOTJ's affinity for having Force ghosts show up out of nowhere for no explained reason.

(5) Atris setting half the plot of TSL in motion as a direct result of being corrupted by exposure to her roomful of holocrons. Oh, wait, that doesn't count because you say so.

 

And there is that pop quiz in KotOR II, where you must take the test to access the training area. One of the questions is: Which Sith Lord is not entombed on Korriban? The alternatives are Marka Ragnos, Naga Sadow, Freedon Nadd and someone else. Neither Sadow nor Freedon Nadd were entombed, and so, at least for Obsidian, they just assumed that because there is a tomb for Sadow, he must've been entombed there anyways.

Even though the first game conspicuously does not have Sadow's remains in the tomb. It was most likely an error on the part of whoever was in charge of putting that puzzle in, justifiably assuming that if someone's tomb is somewhere, they're probably dead inside of it.

 

True, it hadn't been established. But it would make sense for the JO 4000 years before to be radically different to that of the RoE. Which means, no Council can make sense. But KotOR doesn't even bother at the circumstances of the Council's creation. And Jolee says there was a council during the Great Sith Wars. Which there was not.

Absence of mention of the Council does not equal or approach the authority of mention of absence.

 

That's immortality in a sense. And even Exar Kun could not achieve it. All he managed to do was turn himself into a Sith spirit.

Since Sion is constantly in a ridiculous amount of pain as a result of his condition, it's actually one of the ****tiest kinds of immortality (second to Nihilus', for sure).

 

I do see a VERY big difference. You don't see Sadow blowing up the star in the Coruscant system. We only see that power twice: when Sadow uses it to escape pursuit. It's a dramatic moment, that sets the continuity for the return of the Sith in the form of Freedon Nadd and Exar Kun. And again, when Aleema, a Sith sorceress, is tricked into triggering the supernova in the Cron cluster, that swallows the Jedi learning center on Ossus. Another dramatic moment.

I don't care. It's an insane amount of power with no drawbacks, and that makes it cheap. Seriously, they couldn't think of a better way to dramatically have the Sith escape or destroy Ossus' academy?

 

Darth Vader's apprentice supposedly being able to easily pull a Star Destroyer out of the sky without a sweat is something I call bull**** on. Using the Force to similarly cause the destruction of a star is many levels of preposterousness higher. It's the same sort of nonsense that Kevin Anderson wrote into the Jedi Academy trilogy, where a handful of barely-trained Jedi use the Force to push an entire Imperial fleet out of the Yavin system, with the only drawback being that one of them, the "conduit" through which they focused their power, dies.

 

Incidentally, unless Sadow had no means of reaching the Coruscant system, then he was stupid for not destroying the star there.

 

And yet, Kreia says that Nihilus' power could be achieved by any Sith introduced into the technique, given time.

She's talking about Force drain, not the Force drain that can kill planetary life. Nihilus' unusual condition was what eventually allowed him to achieve that.

 

And not once is the nova-triggering used as a plot excuse. You don't see Sadow machinating the use of his "Death Star" to break the galaxy in half.

If what you've told me is true, then he ought to have. And since he can do it so easily, it is too a plot excuse.

[Darth Primus]

Which in no way means the Council could not exist then.

 

Of course it does. If there were any Council, do you honestly think they would be silent during the entirety of the Kun crisis? I don't think so. And just because the concept of a Jedi Council to act as a guide to the Order's actions, at any level, is no excuse either. It is simply not a part of the Jedi Order set about during that time period. Simply, in TotJ, there is no Jedi Council. The role of the Council is clearly taken over by individual Jedi Masters, and the respect their achievements inspires in their fellow Jedi. But it is not a regular body, with known faces spitting out orders. Jolee, in his accounts, makes it seem so.

 

The Ruusan Reformation was an abolition of the Jedi role in the Republic military (not to mention a restructuring of the Republic itself) and the centralization of Jedi authority on the Coruscant Temple, rather than multiple temples and enclaves, so there were indeed plenty of differences between the two times.

 

The Ruusan Reformation in itself, yes, was the detatchment of the Jedi from any military role. What I meant was, the Battle of Ruusan stands as a turning point to the order, where Jedi certainly would review more than just their roles in the Republic military. It is a turning point where the Jedi revisited their ways to make sure the Sith stayed dead this time.

 

KotOR's setting of the Jedi Order forces the assumption that the Battle of Ruusan didn't even have that much impact on the Order itself, save its detatchment from military roles.

 

It gravitated around them, yet Revan was able to create his own faction of Jedi, and go on unauthorized investigations into the Mandalorian War with little Council resistance except some expression of disapproval? Furthermore, the fact that there are multiple Jedi facilities across the galaxy with their own councils means that power was not nearly as centralized around Coruscant as you claim.

 

Revan openly rebeled against the Jedi Council. But if a similar thing occured during the Rise of the Empire era, I highly doubt the Jedi Council would do more than simply consider them outcast Jedi. And there is nothing to indicate the KotOR-era Council did not do just that to the whole lot of the Revanchists, save one who showed true penance. But then, the Order always kept its arms open to those who sought redemption.

 

You seriously think use of the term "Padawan" was part of their hopes to attract money? Besides, since the term is interchangeable with "apprentice" why is it so terrible for Jolee to call himself a Padawan in hindsight?

 

The fact of the matter is that Padawan is an anachronic term to that era, just as the Council is an anachronic body, inserted into gameplay to emulate the Prequel Trilogy feel and integrate it into their franchise. To make it recognizable so they could build on what was already well-established.

 

...which changes nothing. You said that Revan came up with the Rule of Two, and he didn't. Also, the Sith Empire in the Unknown Regions seems to have each member of its Dark Council called a "Dark Lord".

 

Face it, Revan's holocron was a poor retcon meant to give some impact to an otherwise insipid Dark Lord of the Sith. I admit to not knowing the specifics about it, but that doesn't change the fact it seems forced to me.

 

The story of the games speaks against you. You say Revan "would have" drank from the same sources? He didn't. Exar Kun's training came, as you said, from Nadd's ghost, Korriban, and Yavin. As is made very clear in TSL Revan's knowledge of the dark side came from the Trayus Academy on Malachor V.

 

And just what was Malachor V supposed to be? Kreia says Malachor, like Korriban, was on the fringes of the Old Sith Empire. Which means it, like Korriban, was still within the Empire, and its occupants were Sith. Of the same origin as those from Korriban. Therefore, the same bloody teachings as most likely could be found anywhere on Korriban.

 

Perhaps because there is no need for those? Revan is generally considered a pretty compelling character on his own, and whether or not he is has nothing to do with whether he's associated with some special Force powers from a series that is barely connected to his own.

 

Good point, but I don't see anything that puts Revan out of the ordinary. Vader is a tragic figure, Sidious is an insidious one. Dooku is unique in his fighting style, and his gentleman behavior. Maul is a silent, mindless beast. Kun is a brooding, dangerous man, with strong focus. What can Revan say to his defense? That he preferred to conquer worlds rather than destroy them? Or that he rushed to face the Mandalorians? That he redeemed himself and turned back to the light, condemning the Sith survivors to change tactics?

 

One who isn't perfect and can't perfectly see the future. You forget that the ancient Sith Lords all got ****ed over on account of being imperfect as well.

 

The fact of the matter is, there doesn't seem to be anything at which Revan excels to be truly considered the Dark Lord of the Sith. He couldn't even put the reins on his own apprentice, let alone a Sith warrior from, say the days of Exar Kun. Or even a Sith Lord from those days, such as Sion.

 

Are you going to propose that Palpatine was a lousy Sith Lord for falling to Anakin's sacrifice, as well?

 

Poor comparison. Sidious turned the Jedi's prized jewel on themselves, and crushed them under his heel. Vader was his pet, followed his every order. It was Luke's own presence and strength of will that convinced Vader to hurl his master down the drain of the Death Star. It was not Palpatine's failing, it was Vader's will and Luke's actions that prompted the Dark Lord's death. All Revan did was drag a passive Malak into the Dark Side, and spread the teaching of the Sith to a bunch of Jedi that grew in the Mandalorian Wars.

 

It's because Battle Meditation is an ability that certain Force-sensitives just have a natural talent for, just like certain ordinary people have natural sensitivity to the Force. It's not a power that you can just teach to someone, like telekinesis.

 

And where's the evidence to that? It may be a special gift, but it certainly requires training, and it does not always guarantee success. Sith such as Ommin and Aleema Keto were indeed capable of disrupting an untrained user, as they did with Nomi. And Bastila was just a Jedi apprentice. Its not possible a single Sith Lord, not even the Dark Lord himself, could conjure up his presence to enough extent as to break a Jedi apprentice's concentration.

 

That they are tied to Macguffins doesn't make a whole lot of difference. Most Sith magic powers are offensive energy attacks, illusions and tricks of the mind, and outright copies of regular powers, such as healing.

 

Healing is hardly a regular power, and KotOR certainly trivializes it, out of a game mechanical necessity. Plagueis' healing powers were very unique, and even Sidious could not emulate it from all I know. No Jedi could do it, outside those 'Jedi healers' that I always deemed absurd. Not to the extent seen on KotOR, by the power and by Sion. On TotJ, the only healing that appears is when Kun is smashed by the falling ceiling in the Sith tomb. And it only happens when he gives himself fully and irrevocably to the Dark Side. I don't think he could ever benefit from it again.

 

Illusion was not seen before TotJ, either. And while they certainly resemble some other powers that could be ruled outside Sith sorcery, they are still unique in that they required very specific training and focus. But you see the oppressive presence that Amanoa and Ommin could cast, very interesting. Aleema's illusions.

 

Pay attention to what Atris says. She tells the Exile that she sent her followers to scour the galaxy years before TSL to find those holocrons. Most of them probably aren't from Ossus.

 

I said Ossus, I mean both Dantooine and Ossus. OK, so she was looking for ways to stop the Sith even before Malak blasted the hell outta Dantooine. But, at least by the Handmaiden's counts, all those artifacts came from Dantooine, and Ossus before it. I didn't really recall Atris said that.

 

Why would anyone else have those abilities? A wound in the Force is hard to create out of a person.

 

If it didn't come from the Old Sith Empire, how come Kreia would mention that? Either way, it doesn't make sense, as a power such as that would certainly escalate one to the title of Dark Lord of the Sith right away.

 

No, all of the Sith do not have the Exile and Nihilus' power. They have it because of what happened to them at Malachor. And again, you haven't at all demonstrated how Sion et al are more ridiculously overpowered than Sith in TOTJ.

 

Vrook states that feeding on others was the teaching of these new Sith, a result of the wound in the Force. Well, "teaching" seems to me something that is passed from master to apprentice.

 

That's because "Dark Jedi" is a term that loosely refers for someone with Jedi powers who uses the dark side and does not follow the path of a Jedi. That Sith in Revan's Empire are occasionally called "Dark Jedi" makes no difference of the fact that they technically are Sith, since they have Sith powers, went through training and initiation into the Sith Order, and fight for the Sith Empire.

 

Then name them all Sith, for crying out loud. When you look at a Dark Jedi, you go like 'pfa! Its just a Dark Jedi.' But there should be something to tell them apart from the true Sith. But I guess that Dark Jedi and Sith are all the same anywways, so lets just mashup the names between the waves of Sith Lords.

 

(1) No kidding.

(2) Uhh, no. It's storing Jedi in stasis so he can feed off of their power.

(3) No ****. I never said it was, and frankly, a lot more thought was clearly put into it. More than Sadow's star-destruction power, for example.

(4) I've frankly never been a fan of TOTJ's affinity for having Force ghosts show up out of nowhere for no explained reason.

(5) Atris setting half the plot of TSL in motion as a direct result of being corrupted by exposure to her roomful of holocrons. Oh, wait, that doesn't count because you say so.

 

[2] Yeah, the only problem is it was developed by the Rakatan Empire, not the true Sith. And don't even get me started on their excuse of having the Sith learning all they knew frm the Rakatan. The Sith mixed their tribal magics with the Dark Jedi powers, and that is how their Sorcery was truly born.

[3] It sounds faker to me than Sadow's star-destructive power, because it is an everyday business. And there are more practiotioners of those powers than there were Sith Sorcerors. We can count them with one hand: Sadow, Keto, Kun and Nadd. In an era where the Sith spread far.

[4] "For no explained reason"? The Sith spirits are the true masterminds behind Kun and Qel-Droma. Ragnos and Nadd bring about the return of the Sith ways to the galaxy, and ensure their legacy lives on for the ages to follow.

[5] OK, so there's this Sith lord who wishes she was anyone but a Sith Lord, called Kreia. The holocrons set this good-intentioned Jedi Master on the path of darkness, and set her about the same path as that first Sith Lord. It just happens that her beliefs are quite contrary to the Sith beliefs, in that she feels the galaxy should be rid of the Force, rather than ruled by it. Why would the roomful of Sith holocrons cooperate with that plot?

 

Even though the first game conspicuously does not have Sadow's remains in the tomb. It was most likely an error on the part of whoever was in charge of putting that puzzle in, justifiably assuming that if someone's tomb is somewhere, they're probably dead inside of it.

 

An error, due to bad review. If they did it to KotOR, which came only a few years earlier, its only obvious they'd do even more for TotJ, almost a deacade before.

 

The problem is, the creators of TotJ got there first. But videogame is always a more powerful medium than comics nowadays. Does that give them the right to spit in the eyes of the creators of TotJ, and its fans? NO.

 

Absence of mention of the Council does not equal or approach the authority of mention of absence.

 

That doesn't stick. The fact that the Council was supposed to mediate all that regards the Jedi actions in the galaxy, and there is no council doing that in TotJ, does automatically entail that the Council, if at all existed, did not take the reins of the Order.

 

Since Sion is constantly in a ridiculous amount of pain as a result of his condition, it's actually one of the ****tiest kinds of immortality (second to Nihilus', for sure).

 

I am not speaking of the consequences. I am merely remarking that a Sith did, in fourty years, what Nadd couldn't in his lifetime. And says who that, after his ninety years, Sion woudln't find the focus to live on? Its the next step up (since Sion was biologically dead, as the medical officers aboard the Harbinger state, and his appearance suggests.

 

I don't care. It's an insane amount of power with no drawbacks, and that makes it cheap. Seriously, they couldn't think of a better way to dramatically have the Sith escape or destroy Ossus' academy?

 

Says who it has no drawbacks? I invoke your absence of mention from above, In fact, Sadow's moderation in invoking said power testifies for the existance of some drawback, it is simply not used as a plot factor. And Aleema's lack of control of such an ability also testifies to the difficulty of handling a supernova. After all, Sadow was the Dark Lord of the Sith, and a lifelong Sith Sorceror. Aleema was a spoiled brat playing with toys too big for her age.

 

The fact of the matter is, KotOR itches for planetary destruction. Look at Telos, Taris, Dantooine and the other planets devastated by war mentioned everywhere. Whereas the only count of planetary destruction costs Kun his battleship, that was required for the use of such a power, a powerful Sith sorceress, and Kun's pet Jedi Crado.

 

Darth Vader's apprentice supposedly being able to easily pull a Star Destroyer out of the sky without a sweat is something I call bull**** on. Using the Force to similarly cause the destruction of a star is many levels of preposterousness higher. It's the same sort of nonsense that Kevin Anderson wrote into the Jedi Academy trilogy, where a handful of barely-trained Jedi use the Force to push an entire Imperial fleet out of the Yavin system, with the only drawback being that one of them, the "conduit" through which they focused their power, dies.

 

Still, all the plot doesn't revolve around Sadow's being able to blast a Star into a supernova. Its a tool used twice. It shows the Sith are dangerous and willing to go out of their ways to achieve their objectives. It is not an excuse for a sidewalk villain to destroy the Force.

 

Incidentally, unless Sadow had no means of reaching the Coruscant system, then he was stupid for not destroying the star there.

 

Maybe he couldn't all along. Maybe he felt such a display was not necessary. Maybe the drawbacks did not make it worthwhile (after all, the Sith were being beat up on Koros, too).

 

She's talking about Force drain, not the Force drain that can kill planetary life. Nihilus' unusual condition was what eventually allowed him to achieve that.

 

Two names, same thing. Just the extent is a little different. And a Sith trained to be as powerful as his foe is, automatically and without any further explanation, is also quite forced.

 

If what you've told me is true, then he ought to have. And since he can do it so easily, it is too a plot excuse.

 

Yes. It is a plot excuse. But since it is not a centerpiece to the plot, it doesn't really matter.

 

Besides, I am not supposed to be arguing TotJ. What I am trying to say is that KotOR is inconsistent with that line, and its not supposed to be, because it is barely one generation away from it. To me, TotJ will always be stronger, because it did not drink from the status quo in Star Wars mythology of his time (the Original Trilogy) to spit out a Galaxy that was near a specular image of the original source, while KotOR did.

 

Your arguments did not exist at all before KotOR. Because KotOR is so different from TotJ, as I said in my first post, that it required a series of assumptions and retcons that are detrimental to what had already been established as canon, and just because it was a wholesale success with the common consumer. That saddens me greatly. To me, the army of recent Star Wars EU material, namely KotOR, TOR, Legacy Era and TFU buried definitely the Expanded Universe, that had always had little work with true virtue.

[Darth Avlectus]

I enjoy this kind of extended debate revolving around EU canon for this era. So I'll depart from my usually brief length post.

 

Are you saying you heard other people say they knew once they got to Dantooine? *brevity* But knowing that you were Revan from basically the start of the game, I doubt that more than 5% of people's first playthrough they had a clue, but we'll never know since people wanting to act cool will say "Oh yeah I knew right off the bat dude it was a no-brainer!"

 

I could not predict exactly each turn, only a vague idea around each main event. That and I knew inevitably that my 'everyman' role would collide with who appeared to be the main villain. Also would not have been interesting without some major plot twist, otherwise it's just some random dude becoming the one who took down the bad guy of the galaxy. While I would not mind a Grand Theft Auto/Saint's Row type of transition of nobody to ultimate man , it really didn't seem to suit Star Wars.

 

I deduced that I was in some way connected to Malak and Revan. Having heard so much about Malak and so little about Revan, I started looking for answers (ironically the day before playing the star forge level IRL).

 

Ironically found some obscure game forum with another guy who was about as far along as myself. He said "Have not completed the game but I heard a rumor there is a way to become Darth Revan", and I thought "Ridiculous. There's nothing in SW lore that shows one *became* a previously existing Sith Lord. Then wondered, "Unless it's possible somehow YOU were that dark lord, or became the second to take the name and identity?". Both of which I immediately dismissed out of hand--I was a grunt, a nobody.

 

Then when I confronted Malak for tyhe first time, it was like a moment where you hear all your bank savings are gone and you're in denial until the proof is shown to you. Then I had a Luke "NNNOOOOOOOO!" moment.

 

 

No sympathy from me, I'm afraid, because I always considered the technology design in TOTJ to be only one or two shades less stupid than this piece of **** from Jedi vs Sith.

DAAAAAH! Nonononononono! Why did you bring up that abominable piece of crap again? *hits head on wall*

 

Who cares? Revan's Sith Order was completely different from Kun's, anyway, and seeing as many or most of the Sith before Kun used swords, he probably wouldn't care what color he uses.

Agreed: IIRC although Kun *was* a sith and invented the double bladed lightsaber, it seemed to me there wasn't sufficient time for him to change the color crystal. Seeing as how Kun was a great duelist, I'm pretty sure he didn't care what color it was anyways.

 

Also Freedon Nadd had a short orange lightsaber (at the least we know of--very well could have been more) and not a red one, so this is further evidence IMO that Sith did NOT necessarily always carry red blades.

 

There is also a unique and distinctive view of the technological apparatus: the huge starships of Ambria, built within the carcasses of giant insects... The plasma cannons instead of blasters... Overall more frail-looking starships in general (like the Sith Battleships and Hogon's freighter).

 

That doesn't mean that more advanced ships (similar to prequels, OT, etc.) couldn't have been made already. They're simple concepts.

 

While I agree with your general premise that it's a lazy challenge for LA rehashing familiar territory and objects, I see no logical reason in the continuity why similar ships and the like couldn't exist thousands of years before the PT. Maybe it wasn't as widespread up to that point. Afterall, the Republic had a ~21,000 year history by this point. Perhaps, like our own planet IRL, their technology and production hadn't taken off yet? Just a suggestion.

 

Then came KotOR. Only fourty years later in the SW universe, we see a galaxy that's allegedly radically changed.

A more accurate description would be to say that we see a galaxy that's just as it was when the Old Republic is reformed by Darth Sidious<snip>

Well, it's a big galaxy, and different views in different spots of the galaxy at any given point can vary quite a bit.

 

While you could point out all day inconsistencies about Jedi and marriage, I think it might suffice to say there are multiple schools of thought on the same subject if the galaxy (hence differences and disagreements) is such a big place and there is so much freedom among Jedi. These could be fleshed out better admittedly as opposed to ignored completely.

 

I mean, BioWare and Obsidian should get to know the established SW universe before changing it so drastically. That not only forced a series of assumptions and retcons regarding the timeline, but it also came as a complete disregard for the creators of the Tales of the Jedi, who managed to bring into life an extremely rich storyline. And all that for what?

Here is where a risk is present in creative license: Either you rehash the familiar and dumb it down, OR if you take off in a radically new direction you get a complaint that it is too unfamiliar which may not end up being popular enough.

 

And then came along KotOR II. Well, it is no better than the first. Because here, not only the mistakes of the earlier version are repeated, but the game designers even resort to the absurd: overpowered villains worthy of a Dragon Ball episode.

The basis of most SW is a platform of a "Hero-man" story type.

 

*brevity* Darths Traya, Sion, Nihilus

Ok then, come up with a completely new villain that is "still Star Wars-y".

 

BTW I thought it all had everything to do with the "wound in the force" anomaly? Nihilus was like a combination of stereotype vampire and grim reaper. Sion, ok a walking dead man--you do realize he was originally part of Exar Kun's empire?

 

Obviously, Freedon Nadd spent all his lifetime, and the lifetimes of his successors, searching for the secret of physical immortality, but who's this fellow anyways? This guy here doesn't need that. He is immortal just because he is, and makes through three wars, until this Jedi fellow convinces him life isn't worth living.

I thought Nadd was long lived and physically dies around 600 years old... thereafter kept his spirit alive somehow until Exar Kun vanquished it?

 

As to Satele Shan being a descendent of Bastilla and Revan... It is possible that their child made a BIG family of his (possibly her) own through the years. I'm afraid this will have to continue to be a mystery. What does it really matter?

 

Sure TOR is a rehash...I'd like to see someone come up with a new *working* idea that doesn't just outright kill the series either as opposed to this slow sellout death.

 

Well, when one compares TotJ to Jolee's account, one can find several inconsistencies. More than once, Jolee overstates that the Council did exist and was ever-watchful since before the Great Sith War, which was not true, or else Kun would've been hunted much sooner.

I was under the impression that it was the order's exuberance with Exar Kun that allowed him to get so far. When the council watching over him became concerned, it was too little, too late. Kun became defiant and was ultimately ensnared by his own curiosity and pursuits.

 

 

And yet there is not much difference between Revan's Empire and the Sith Order of the Prequels, save one: in the PT, there were only two Sith. Then comes that imbecile retcon, with Revan's holocron sitting on Bane's hand, as he comes up with the Rule of Two. If Revan really felt the Sith's strength wasn't based on numbers, why didn't he instate it? Because then, the players wouldn't get to wade through waves of Classic Prequel Trilogy Sith Lords.

 

Though this was addressed by TKA, I believe the reason you seem to think Revan knew of/invented the Rule of Two is because Karpyshyn did not outline well enough that Bane actually came up with this 'Rule of Two' while Revan's holocron spoke to him.

 

Revan might have been thinking along these lines, but it was not Revan that came up with the Rule of Two. Revan probably hadn't the necessity nor the perspective during his time as the dark lord.

 

Bane figuring this out while Revan merely outlined a basic principle of master-to-apprentice, was supposed to be the pivotal point for Bane and his philosophical point of view for the sith. Karpyshyn could have done a better job clarifying this point.

 

There is actually more, the Sith of this era do not sum up to lightsaber colors. You see Naga Sadow, Aleema Keto, Exar Kun, Freedon Nadd, Ommin. What do they have in common? Sith Sorcery. It would broadly be available in that time period: their unique form of Battle Meditation, their contact to Sith spirits, their dark presence becoming so strong that it would make it difficult for lightsiders to focus... Not just Force Lightning and Drain Life.

Amongst a myriad of other things--I believe the unexplored "Sith Sorcery" is a big part of the upcoming MMO.

 

As to any tomb on Korriban without its respective sarcophagus:

 

Same thing with Darth Andeddu. He had a fake tomb on Korriban, to decieve both Jedi and his colleagues because he felt his secrets too great to share with so many.

 

Well, nothing would've stopped Nomi, for instance, from creating a Jedi Council after the War's end. *brevity*

I do believe that even though they did not have any one centril council to control all others, that they did believe their collective as a whole was "to serve at the center of the galaxy". Does it really matter? They were almost all "eaten" later on anyhow.

 

The fact of the matter is, the Jedi Order feel KotOR sets about to establish differs in no points from the PT.

 

It never gave me the impression it was *the* central council. It was considered to be a stronghold, hidden away from strategic points in the galaxy save the fact it is a trade hub, at least. To me that implied it was not the main enclave, but rather one of many.

Granted there is familiarity: Vandar is effectively the Yoda of that time period, and shades of Mace Windu in Dorak (and Vrook Lamar to the attitude extent). Zhar and whomever else for the non-humans. This is more just a nod to the PT.

 

Summing everything up, the KotOR era had a great contribution to SW universe. Revan invented the red lightsaber,

Source please?

the Rule of Two,

Incorrect. Specific concept did not quite occur to Revan; only the basic theory behind it. It took Bane's perspective seeing infighting and the folly of overtness by other Sith of his own time in order to interpret the basic principle Revan's holocron taught in such a way as to come up with the Rule of Two.

Ooh, and there's the Sith Empire. I mean the True one. The one that waited in the shadows... So little information is said about that, and then TOR comes up with even more inconsistencies, for the sake of MMO's.

Such as?

 

KotOR II is absurd, KotOR is shallow to the extreme.

K1 reinvents the wheel of hero-man type storyline. K2 IMO was of a more open and different philosophy--I like it because it dares to be different, a heretic amongst its others if you will.

 

 

Oh, come on. The battle droids in KotOR have no resemblance to the prequels. The ships do bear some passing resemblances to movie ships, but it really doesn't get obvious outside of the Leviathan, Ravager, Ebon Hawk, and those shuttles in TSL (what's so shocking about the plausibility of vaguely triangle-shaped ships, anyway? It's a very basic idea). Jedi even wear completely different robes in the first game, for crying out loud.

QFT. Though I find the sith starfighters to be a little too closely resembling of imperial Tie bombers and interceptors.

 

Closer inspection of Revan's holocron in Path of Destruction states that he never said there should be a limited number of Sith; only that a Sith Master should only instruct one student, and that the title of Dark Lord should only be held by one individual. Bane only started with those ideas before conceiving of the organization of his own Order.

Exactly. Beating a dead horse, this pivotal moment of revelation could have been made clearer by author Drew Karpyshyn.

 

And since Sith sorcery doesn't really seem to be anything other than a handful of regular Force powers, albeit overpowered and occasionally stupid ones, it's really not that huge a loss.

I think this remains to be seen TBH. Time will only tell.

 

And KotOR I sets a certain degree of freedom, I agree. But still, everything gravitated around their Jedi Council (see the whole Mandalorian War mess, for instance).

Only to an extent, as we very well find out through the course of K1. Each of the planets had its own life that continued on regardles of the jedi council or Revan, or anything else.

 

The title of Dark Lord of the Sith was historically always held by the greatest Sith Lord. Except in the times of Lord Kaan, that, as I see it, should hardly be even considered a true Dark Lord, who changed it as a political maneuver. Revan didn't come up with that "cardinal rule".

True. Still, Kaan's dark brotherhood was merely only a reformation of remnants left from Darth Ruin's empire. While this transformation occurred in a very short time, the diluting of the dark side and its ranks had been going on for a long, long time. At least since SW:TOR--for a lack of any specifics for so many future instances to have originated from.

 

Why then there is no mention of any out-of-the-ordinary power for Revan?

Does the "war of conversion" Kreia spoke of ring any bells? A power to utterly and totally convert others to your cause--or kill them in the process? Then again, such powers are merely an assistant, it takes a certain character type to be a leader of sorts.

Hell, he couldn't even sense his apprentice's betrayal, what kind of a Dark Lord is that?

Even with the force, take enough chances and fate eventually will come back to bite you. Distracted by his war of conversion to go after the Emperor, he may not payed enough attention to the war boiling up right beneath his nose.

 

Oh, that's right. All the relics Atris rescued from Ossus were Sith holocrons!!! That's excellent too. The only Sith holocron the Jedi knew of as of Ossus' destruction was that which Odan-Urr took from a Sith battleship (it belonged to Sadow himself, if I'm not mistaken). And look at that, the holocron was stolen by Kun, who used it to focus some real Sith sorcery, namely have the Jedi apprentices possessed by Sith spirits.

It might require an explanation. Still, I was under the impression the holocrons Atris got hold of were from salvaged on Dantooine. Could just be me.

 

But I find it really absurd. Suddenly, all Sith learn how to do it, just because the Exile did, while they couldn't even learn Battle Meditation before. And Sion's ability is another excuse for overpowering the final boss, too.

 

I think the triumvirate was specifically linked to the Exile's actions at Malachor V. Probably was a variation of a preexisting power. And likely wasn't widespread, hence others' lack of success in the dark side.

 

Where is the Sith Alchemy?

Considering Revan and Exile both learn years, possibly decades, worth of force powers and lightsaber combat in a very short span of time, that in and of itself is quite a feat. Sith alchemy has not been expanded upon yet by SW canon IRL, and indications are that it is forbidden with good reason in the SW continuity.

 

That's immortality in a sense. And even Exar Kun could not achieve it. All he managed to do was turn himself into a Sith spirit. And yet, Sion's always known how to do it, according to Wookieepedia.

This.

 

The only other similarities of immortality are how other sith lords somehow remained after physical death with their spirits intact. The closest similarity to Sion is Darth Andeddu IMO and there is still not enough known about his life on Korriban, or before he "died".

 

It gravitated around them, yet Revan was able to create his own faction of Jedi, and go on unauthorized investigations into the Mandalorian War with little Council resistance except some expression of disapproval? Furthermore, the fact that there are multiple Jedi facilities across the galaxy with their own councils means that power was not nearly as centralized around Coruscant as you claim.

 

Furthemore, it is neither expressed nor implied in either game, that there is any one center of jedi council around which the rest of the order orbits as a collective.

 

Pay attention to what Atris says. She tells the Exile that she sent her followers to scour the galaxy years before TSL to find those holocrons. Most of them probably aren't from Ossus.

Yes, I'd like to add to this not only is Dantooine a source, but possibly Coruscant...and now these other places we're finding out about in the TOR chronicle videos.

 

Face it, Revan's holocron was a poor retcon meant to give some impact to an otherwise insipid Dark Lord of the Sith. I admit to not knowing the specifics about it, but that doesn't change the fact it seems forced to me.

 

I think it was the other way around... George Lucas wanted to explain why Palpatine did not have a legion of dark side followers. So in TPM he had Yoda refer to its rule; the Rule of Two. The Jedi vs Sith comics were supposed to be a representation of Bane creating the Rule of Two. Unfortunately the comics (at least to my recollection) do *not* in fact complete the job.

 

Karpyshyn simply found a way to explain it by linking his work with KOTOR to the story. Sure I admit it's kind of a move of self-interest for the author, but in general if there wasn't this connection between the two, then the basis would have to have been from just some other sith lord from scratch. Any move in a new direction is a tremendous risk. (IMO I think we need some new gambles). This connection might forgo a new creativity direction, but we'd now have a more disjointed timeline. Not saying it is necessarily better this way, but in general this connection gave significance and weight to the story as a whole, not just this individual point in the timeline.

 

All Revan did was drag a passive Malak into the Dark Side, and spread the teaching of the Sith to a bunch of Jedi that grew in the Mandalorian Wars.

I believe Alek Squinnegarimus was a forthright, bold and brash character only second to his friend Revan. Alek was not a passive man.

 

Healing is hardly a regular power, and KotOR certainly trivializes it, out of a game mechanical necessity.

So does the Jedi Knight series.

 

But, at least by the Handmaiden's counts, all those artifacts came from Dantooine, and Ossus before it. I didn't really recall Atris said that.

Why didn't you say this in your earlier post?

 

Logically there are few other places the holocrons could have come from

 

I am not speaking of the consequences. I am merely remarking that a Sith did, in fourty years, what Nadd couldn't in his lifetime. And says who that, after his ninety years, Sion woudln't find the focus to live on? Its the next step up (since Sion was biologically dead, as the medical officers aboard the Harbinger state, and his appearance suggests.

I don't know...it and Andeddu's power seem merely physical variations of Others like Sadow, Pall, Nadd, and Kun, who managed to keep their spirits alive and souls intact. As well as Karness Muur.

 

Still, all the plot doesn't revolve around Sadow's being able to blast a Star into a supernova. Its a tool used twice. It shows the Sith are dangerous and willing to go out of their ways to achieve their objectives. It is not an excuse for a sidewalk villain to destroy the Force.

All things considered, for all its power and potential detriment, this whole story is now just a footnote in SW timeline.

[christos200]

first of all THERE WAS A JEDI COUNCIL AT THE TIME OF EXAR KUN look at the youtube in TOR timeline 10 yhe exar kun war.

 

Second malak was revans best friend. thats why he didnt sence his betrayal.

 

Revan was at the heart of the force kreia said in kotor 2. thats something special.

 

And about the storyline ? you cant say the game is crap only because of his tecnology. if it was 500 years after TOTJ would you like the main storyline and the dialog system and freedom of kotor?

 

EDID:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mivi6WaiOr4&feature=related

 

REVAN WILL ALWAYS WIN!

[adamqd]

first of all THERE WAS A JEDI COUNCIL AT THE TIME OF EXAR KUN look at the youtube in TOR timeline 10 yhe exar kun war.

 

 

That was made 2 months ago, TOTJ was 16 years ago... but I dont necessarily believe that there wasn't a Council, only that the Jedi werent as strict or ruled over at that point, Jedi were free to do as they pleased, teach as many apprentices as they wished, and deemed themselves fit to place rank of Knight up on said students.

[adamqd]

first of all THERE WAS A JEDI COUNCIL AT THE TIME OF EXAR KUN look at the youtube in TOR timeline 10 yhe exar kun war.

 

 

That was made 2 months ago, TOTJ was 16 years ago... its called retcon, but I dont necessarily believe that there wasn't a Council, only that the Jedi werent as strict or ruled over at that point, Jedi were free to do as they pleased, teach as many apprentices as they wished, and deemed themselves fit to place rank of Knight up on said students.

[Darth Primus]

first of all THERE WAS A JEDI COUNCIL AT THE TIME OF EXAR KUN look at the youtube in TOR timeline 10 yhe exar kun war.

 

Second malak was revans best friend. thats why he didnt sence his betrayal.

 

Revan was at the heart of the force kreia said in kotor 2. thats something special.

 

And about the storyline ? you cant say the game is crap only because of his tecnology. if it was 500 years after TOTJ would you like the main storyline and the dialog system and freedom of kotor?

 

EDID:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mivi6WaiOr4&feature=related

 

REVAN WILL ALWAYS WIN!

 

TOR Shouldn't even come to this discussion, not because this is the KotOR discussion area, but because ToR gets to be even worse than its predecessors.

 

First off, THERE WAS NO COUNCIL DURING EXAR KUN'S TIME. That's copyright infringement if you ask me, because the creator of the time period put nothing at all like it. And if it did exist, but didn't hold the authority KotOR and TOR claim it did, then it would have no real purpose, so why would Jedi even bother constituting a council in the first place?

 

Revan would've been truly stupid to consider Malak his BFF after he became the Dark Lord of the Sith. We all see what happens when a gullible man takes a Sith Lord for a friend. That's Anakin with Palpatine, who spinned him around into falling to the Dark Side, and later, who sought to replace Vader with Luke. That only happened because Vader saw his master as his friend. And even if the Dark Lord considered Malak a friend, he should've been able to sense anything about betrayal. Malak was, as everybody after his timeline said, a brute. Unsubtle. And the means by which he chose to betray his master were even less subtle than his usual self: "let's just blow up Revan's starship!" That would call for a 'disturbance in the Force', at least.

 

Revan was at the heart of the Force. That's got nothing to bear with the discussion, and it even discredits him more, because being at the heart of the force, he couldn't even sense his partner's treason, and couldn't resist a bunch of sidewalk Jedi Masters cutting him off from his powerful memories and from the Force as well, in a way.

 

Third, I am not saying the game is crap because of the technology. I'm saying it is a truckfull of crap because it sets major discontinuities with the already established canon in the era. Discontinuities that were addressed to with retcons that in my opinion are forced, and thrown over the plotline with no reasonable explanation, just to conjure a galaxy that reminds players of the Prequels. That includes the Sith, technology, plot mechanics, the Jedi and the Republic as well.

[christos200]

yes i know it sets major discontinuities with the already established canon in the era but tell me,you didnt like the storyline, the suprise you get when you learn that you are revan?

[Darth Primus]

That does not make up for the faults of the game.

 

After all, the only reason the main character was important at all is because he was Revan. But he lacked personality, a decent storyline and the unique feel I expect, especially from a former Sith Lord.

[Darth Avlectus]

First off, THERE WAS NO COUNCIL DURING EXAR KUN'S TIME. That's copyright infringement if you ask me, because the creator of the time period put nothing at all like it. And if it did exist, but didn't hold the authority KotOR and TOR claim it did, then it would have no real purpose, so why would Jedi even bother constituting a council in the first place?

 

More experienced elders to merely help guide their young in the ways of Jedi and to prevent downfall into the dark side? Just a suggestion.

 

We all see what happens when a gullible man takes a Sith Lord for a friend. That's Anakin with Palpatine, who spinned him around into falling to the Dark Side, and later, who sought to replace Vader with Luke. That only happened because Vader saw his master as his friend.

 

Of course the sith master is ready and ever aware of his/her apprentice's ambition to overthrow him/her one day. It's how the dark side works. Why did the Emperor keep him around? Palpatine figured he had effectively rid the galaxy of Jedi power, Vader was merely a shell of his former self but still loyal.

 

I think Anakin/Vader was well aware of what Sidious did after the fact. By that point, Vader's power had been severely reduced as were his physical capabilities. The dark shadow that was Palpatine was now the only 'one' he had left, friends or not. You really think Vader didn't dream of trying to overthrow the emperor?

 

 

"I am more powerful than him, I can overthrow him and we can rule, make things the way we want them to be"

--Anakin to Padm`e

I would hardly call it a friendship after Palpatine revealed he was Darth Sidious.

 

Revan would've been truly stupid to consider Malak his BFF after he became the Dark Lord of the Sith. <snip>

And even if the Dark Lord considered Malak a friend, he should've been able to sense anything about betrayal. Malak was, as everybody after his timeline said, a brute. Unsubtle. And the means by which he chose to betray his master were even less subtle than his usual self: "let's just blow up Revan's starship!" That would call for a 'disturbance in the Force', at least.

 

You're making an awful lot of assumptions. Since you refuse to look at the TOR videos, I'll tell you something you obviously have not considered yet.

 

Why do you think Malak had that metal face plate? Why would Malak have such a disfigurement in the first place? Sure Kavar could have given Malak that injury, but Kavar never fought in the mandalorian wars.

 

Malak says Revan was blind to his growing ambition, and yet he also said he saw his opportunity to become the dark lord and took it--though some would think him a coward for betraying Revan from afar.

 

Revan wasn't so much blind as distracted at an inconvenient moment which happens to all of us. Besides, Mace (the crankiest and most untrusting Jedi Master) who IMO could have out-dueled Anakin had he been more wary at that last moment, trusted him despite the fear clouding Anakin's judgment.

 

 

Revan was at the heart of the Force. That's got nothing to bear with the discussion, and it even discredits him more, because being at the heart of the force, he couldn't even sense his partner's treason,

Still making a lot of assumptions. Even with the force as strongly as it was, Neither he nor Anakin were all powerful nor all seeing.

 

and couldn't resist a bunch of sidewalk Jedi Masters cutting him off from his powerful memories and from the Force as well, in a way.

Oh I don't know, Bastilla sure seemed to have promise. He could have just stood there and then let the Jedi come and arrest him.

 

Third, I am not saying the game is crap because of the technology. I'm saying it is a truckfull of crap because it sets major discontinuities with the already established canon in the era. Discontinuities that were addressed to with retcons that in my opinion are forced, and thrown over the plotline with no reasonable explanation, just to conjure a galaxy that reminds players of the Prequels. That includes the Sith, technology, plot mechanics, the Jedi and the Republic as well.

 

While I essentially agree, there isn't reason enough to believe the technology was anywhere near as good or advanced as the PT.

 

There also isn't anything that necessarily excludes the possibility that more modern stuff, developed since from the first great schism, existed at this point.

 

Maybe this was around the first technological industrial revolution on a galactic scale? Again just offering suggestions.

[Darth Primus]

More experienced elders to merely help guide their young in the ways of Jedi and to prevent downfall into the dark side? Just a suggestion.

 

Of course there were masters to help guide the Jedi Knights. But there was no formal body, convened into a specific room in some Jedi Temple anywhere, to discuss the actions of the Jedi Order and set Knights to do the tasks the council felt was needed. This is how the Council acted during the Prequels, and the KotOR time period.

 

In TotJ, the most respected members of the Jedi Order were Masters (Arca, Thon, Vodo-Siosk Baas and Odan-Urr). But their role was to give counsel, try to enlighten those that sought their wisdom, not to act as the central nervous system of the Order. However, KotOR and TOR attempt to put into that time period a Jedi Council that was just like that from the PT, that is why I feel it is so absurd.

 

Another thing, whether you disagree with it or not, was the fact that even the wisest Jedi Master believed every Jedi to be the master of his own fate, and to be entitled to follow whichever path he chose, even the Dark Side. Thon and Odan-Urr say so, when Cay wills to rescue Ulic from the Krath, even when Ulic refused to be rescued and fell to the Dark Side. They only openly opposed him when he actually attacked the Republic and Coruscant itself.

 

Of course the sith master is ready and ever aware of his/her apprentice's ambition to overthrow him/her one day. It's how the dark side works. Why did the Emperor keep him around? Palpatine figured he had effectively rid the galaxy of Jedi power, Vader was merely a shell of his former self but still loyal.

 

I think Anakin/Vader was well aware of what Sidious did after the fact. By that point, Vader's power had been severely reduced as were his physical capabilities. The dark shadow that was Palpatine was now the only 'one' he had left, friends or not. You really think Vader didn't dream of trying to overthrow the emperor?

 

"I am more powerful than him, I can overthrow him and we can rule, make things the way we want them to be"

--Anakin to Padm`e

I would hardly call it a friendship after Palpatine revealed he was Darth Sidious.

 

Despite the restrictions, Vader in the end of the Empire Era was more powerful than he was at the end of the Rise of the Empire Era. Of course Vader dreamt of overthrowing the Emperor. He only did not do so, after twenty two years, even after Palpatine made his the absolute commander of all imperial forces, in the time leading to The Empire Strikes Back.

 

All in all, Vader trusted his master until he saw Palpatine tried to replace him with Luke.

 

You're making an awful lot of assumptions. Since you refuse to look at the TOR videos, I'll tell you something you obviously have not considered yet.

 

Why do you think Malak had that metal face plate? Why would Malak have such a disfigurement in the first place? Sure Kavar could have given Malak that injury, but Kavar never fought in the mandalorian wars.

 

I did see the TOR videos. I only refuse to see the absurd reviews they make of the Great Sith War, because they have shown more than once to be incapable of relaying the story without altering fundamental things.

 

I do know Malak's wound came from Revan. And Kavar's not fighting the Mandalorian Wars has nothing to do with it. But he would've had plenty of opportunity of maiming Malak during the Jedi Civil War itself, in which Kavar participate. But it doesn't matter.

 

Malak says Revan was blind to his growing ambition, and yet he also said he saw his opportunity to become the dark lord and took it--though some would think him a coward for betraying Revan from afar.

 

Revan wasn't so much blind as distracted at an inconvenient moment which happens to all of us. Besides, Mace (the crankiest and most untrusting Jedi Master) who IMO could have out-dueled Anakin had he been more wary at that last moment, trusted him despite the fear clouding Anakin's judgment.

 

Revan did underestimate Malak. He gave his apprentice a ship to command. He gavve him followers, gave him an apprentice of his own, perhaps. And he allowed Malak to roam free even as he fought an important battle, such as the one in which Malak betrayed him. All in all, lil' jawless Sith Lord had plenty of opportunity to cross his master. And he did choose well the time to do it.

 

Could he really outduel Anakin? You remove Sidious from the equation. Mace did not really trust Anakin, but he had to cut the evil from its core. So, deal with Sidious first, then move to Anakin if necessary. If he had turned to subdue Anakin, then Palpatine would certainly join in. Hell, he might have lost his lightsaber, but his Force lightning could prove a major distraction, that'd give Anakin plenty of chances to reap Windu's head. Not to mention Sidious' battle meditation, which as I believe was the only reason Anakin could kill Dooku in the first place.

 

Still making a lot of assumptions. Even with the force as strongly as it was, Neither he nor Anakin were all powerful nor all seeing.

 

It sure as hell makes it a lot easier, doesn't it? Yoda, for instance, was able to feel the clone's betrayal before it happened. And Anakin was all along being spinned around by Palpatine, which certainly that put a dent in his perceptions.

 

Oh I don't know, Bastilla sure seemed to have promise. He could have just stood there and then let the Jedi come and arrest him.

 

What do you mean 'Bastila seemed to have promise'? And why in blazes would he stand there and let the Jedi come and arrest him? He was the Dark Lord of the Sith, and he had the only creature who could rip some victories for the Republic in his grasp. With Bastila dead or removed from the equation, certainly the Republic would fall to the Sith Empire, and Revan could make the galaxy he wanted after all.

 

While I essentially agree, there isn't reason enough to believe the technology was anywhere near as good or advanced as the PT.

 

There also isn't anything that necessarily excludes the possibility that more modern stuff, developed since from the first great schism, existed at this point.

 

Maybe this was around the first technological industrial revolution on a galactic scale? Again just offering suggestions.

 

I'm not discussing advances in technology. I am stabbing the technological design, which sprouted from the Rise of the Empire and Empire eras.

 

Summing it all up, I hate the fact they set KotOR to remind everyone an awful lot of the RotE era. The retcons and all the assumptions regarding everything, from the Jedi Council to the Rakatan Empire, came later, and strike me an awful lot as a misplaced excuse to me.

[christos200]

i think that TOTJ was so ancient that you forget if it is real star wars but kotor gives you the feel of star wars.

[Qui-Don Jorn]

OMG.

-Excuse me, but...

Kavar didn't fight in the Mandalorian Wars?!?

Not even in the first skirmishes? That was what I had thought.

OHH, silly me...I goofed.

[Darth Primus]

OMG.

-Excuse me, but...

Kavar didn't fight in the Mandalorian Wars?!?

Not even in the first skirmishes? That was what I had thought.

OHH, silly me...I goofed.

 

Oh, so he fought in the early skirmishes. That doesn't change the fact that, during the Mandalorian Wars, Kavar wouldn't be fighting Malak. And its not the point of the whole discussion, either.

[JediAthos]

I would like to take just a second and point out that whatever retcons, changes, rewrites, etc...that KOTOR, TOR, SWG, or any other game, book, movie, etc...etc...etc... make to any "established" information are APPROVED BY LUCASARTS. Nothing official happens in Star Wars "canon" without someone from Lucasarts signing off on it.

 

Really...aren't we all used to it by now???