Why I Hate KotOR and TOR

[Alexrd]

okey about the reviews but say, kotor is still a very popular game with a lots of fans, if it was a bad copy of prequel trilogy then why the fans still love it?

 

There are people who love the prequel trilogy, and there are people who think KotOR is a copy of the movie's timeline. Was that supposed to be an argument against something?

[adamqd]

@Christos200

 

'Egyptian' and no....

 

who said bad copy of the prequels? it may resemble the prequels, but unfortunately for myself (Although I very much accept and love KotOR) and the OP, people want simple recognizable motifs in a gift wrapped product that you can tell is Star Wars from 20 paces... make it slightly different and original and people cant get their heads around it.

 

Its resemblance to the Prequels is Purely a Cosmetic and marketing viewpoint, the argument is Continuity, not quality of the Prequels.

[christos200]

i didnt say that i didnt like the prequel trilogy or kotor, i say that if it was a bad copy of the PT then why the fans still love it.

 

its an question for darth primus who says that kotor is a bad copy of the PT.

 

ofcours everyone has its own opinion. i just asked something.

[Xavier2]

This is so much so that TotJ came about in 1996, while SG: Atlantis came about in 2004. Pretty interesting, no? I'd say Stargate is TotJ.

Ok, we agree on that TOTJ is not Stargate: Atlantis. It is Stargate the Movie which lauched in 1994. It is also Superman with technology and starship controls based on...Crystals...So very creative it is.

 

TOTJ may be a lot of things, but Star Wars it barely is. To be honest i think that Bioware has and is being very respectful with the source material. They kept a lot of the plot characters and twists like Naga Sadow, Ludo Kresh, Korriban, Exar Kun, etc. Just they got rid of the Stargate stuff, or the things that didn't make sense in a Star Wars universe.

[Ulmont]

To be honest i think that Bioware has and is being very respectful with the source material.

 

I see your point there. But you have to admit, TOR didn't even bother to LOOK at the source material. Instead of having rather awesome Republic Troopers clad in light body-armor and helmets that are VAGUELY reminiscent of the rebel helmets from the OT you have RESKINNED STORMTROOPERS?! Come on, give me a break. You already made a bad copy of the OT with the prequals. This is your chance to do something cool and NEW. Of course that would actually require creative effort. Basically it looks like they took all of their stock models and tweaked them a bit. KotOR, wile cannonly questionable was great. TOR... not so much...

[Xavier2]

Instead of having rather awesome Republic Troopers clad in light body-armor and helmets that are VAGUELY reminiscent of the rebel helmets from the OT you have RESKINNED STORMTROOPERS?! Come on, give me a break. You already made a bad copy of the OT with the prequals. This is your chance to do something cool and NEW. Of course that would actually require creative effort. Basically it looks like they took all of their stock models and tweaked them a bit. KotOR, wile cannonly questionable was great. TOR... not so much...

We cannot be all certain about everything regarding TOR. It hasn't been launched yet. Nevertheless, i remember seeing a light trooper uniform with a cap that is quite diferent of any previous design and also (because of the Black and White colors) reminiscent of the OT at he same time.

[Darth Primus]

Ok, we agree on that TOTJ is not Stargate: Atlantis. It is Stargate the Movie which lauched in 1994. It is also Superman with technology and starship controls based on...Crystals...So very creative it is.

 

Using crystals on technological devices wasn't new probably even when Superman was released. Its a logical sci-fi clichè that Lucas merely avoided.

 

Besides, here you name one feature taken from here. Another taken from there. But the entire TotJ series is unique. What's to say of KotOR, that holds many more similarities to the Prequels and the OT thank TotJ resemble anything else. To name a few, here we go: the Jedi Order in its entirety (with its Jedi High Council, its Padawans, taking apprentices at a very young age as a fundamental principle of the Code, which it is not), the starships (such as the Ebon Hawk and the Ravager), how Revan and Malak, as Sith, look, act and feel (each one is a poor half of Darth Vader).

 

TOTJ may be a lot of things, but Star Wars it barely is. To be honest i think that Bioware has and is being very respectful with the source material. They kept a lot of the plot characters and twists like Naga Sadow, Ludo Kresh, Korriban, Exar Kun, etc. Just they got rid of the Stargate stuff, or the things that didn't make sense in a Star Wars universe.

 

So I guess Superman is famous because its Sith Lords tend to throw lightning off their fingertips, and Stargate got around because it had Jedi who wielded lightsabers. I guess they also had a Galactic Republic fighting off unseen enemies, hutt crime lords, galactic warfare, holocrons and the hyperspace. Either you think what makes Star Wars is something else (there is little else of importance, if you think of it), or you hadn't been paying proper attention to what Star Wars really is.

 

Then I suggest the next time you waste your time and my breath speaking of TotJ, you should read the first line at every issue of the series: 4000 YEARS BEFORE THE BATTLE OF YAVIN. TotJ sets not only Star Wars, but also the timeline, perfectly. The galaxy is supposed to look ancient. TotJ makes it feel that way.

 

i didnt say that i didnt like the prequel trilogy or kotor, i say that if it was a bad copy of the PT then why the fans still love it.

 

its an question for darth primus who says that kotor is a bad copy of the PT.

 

ofcours everyone has its own opinion. i just asked something.

 

I feel it is a bad copy of the PT. First off, it should not even be a copy of the prequels at all, which it is. Secondly, K1 sets a childish feel as I play through. Tastes worse than those ewoks did. K2 is overly epic, too Dragon Ball Z-like, and absolutely non-Star Wars.

The fans love it because its a copy of the Prequels. And that is part of why I hate it, put simply.

[Q]

If the KotOR games copied the PT as you so fervently believe, I would despise them as much I do the PT. Instead of merely stating it as fact, please explain, in detail, exactly how the KotOR games copy the PT plot-wise.

[TKA-001]

I feel it is a bad copy of the PT. First off, it should not even be a copy of the prequels at all, which it is.

Based on what? Just about everything you wax on about what they got "wrong" about the Old Republic era (technological aesthetics, power structure of the Jedi Order) has nothing to do with the plot.

 

Revan and Malak, as Sith, look, act and feel (each one is a poor half of Darth Vader).

You're really stretching at this point.

[Darth Primus]

If the KotOR games copied the PT as you so fervently believe, I would despise them as much I do the PT. Instead of merely stating it as fact, please explain, in detail, exactly how the KotOR games copy the PT plot-wise.

 

Hehe. What do you despise about the Prequels? The Jedi Council? A Sith Lord with a double-bladed lightsaber? These concepts surface immediately when the game starts. Perhaps you hate the fact Sith only use red-bladed lightsabers. Maybe you hate that Jedi cannot marry. Or the term padawan. Or the midi-chlorians. I find the "death of the Force" concept far worse. Face it. The game setting suggests Prequel Trilogy instantly. Especially KotOR 2. I am not here trying to make you love the prequels. Or hate KotOR. I'm saying I hate KotOR because of its storyline, and because they leeched looks and concepts that are anachronistic to their time from the Prequel Trilogy. Just to make it recognizable to the likes of you as Star Wars. All in all, its just commercial. The fact there even was a sequel is testament of that. And then TOR comes along and buries the Star Wars game industry in my opinion.

 

Based on what? Just about everything you wax on about what they got "wrong" about the Old Republic era (technological aesthetics, power structure of the Jedi Order) has nothing to do with the plot.

 

The aesthetics becomes a living part of the storyline, when the game is bloody set 4000 years before the Rise of the Empire! As to the power structure of the Jedi Order, of course it changes everything. The Exile's rebellion and her current situation as of the end of the Mandalorian Wars becomes the leading plot mechanics to move KotOR 2, and the Council's orders regarding the discovery of the Star Forge also are the motion force of the first game.

 

So you want some plot-related reasons? I'll give you that.

 

First off, one of the creators of the first bloody game, Drew Karpyshyn (or whatever), wrote in his blog, as of 2007:

 

When we were kicking around early ideas for KOTOR we had a subplot that involved clones - keep in mind, we were working on this in 2000, bofore AotC was announced - and we got a firm "Sorry, you can't do that," from the people at LucasArts. Of course, they couldn't tell us why clones were off limits... but when the movie came out it all made sense. They didn't want us to steal their thunder, and they have to protect an entire universe, whereas we were worrying about a single project. So even though I feel bad the powers that be have gone mum on the Munn, I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and trust they know what they're doing.

http://blogs.starwars.com/DrewK/5

 

Look at that. Their original intention was to set a game around the Rise of the Empire era. The Wookieepedia further states little effort was made to change the game from its original sketch, both graphically and storywise. I agree with them.

 

Now, let's go over the person Bastila Shan for a bit. She is called a "Padawan" (an anachronistic use of the term) throughout the whole game, a Padawan who has the special gift of Battle Meditation. So she, a single person and a Jedi apprentice at that, turns the tide of the war, led by allegedly two of the greatest Force-users of the time, Darth Malak and Darth Revan. A Padawan beats the hell outta them, where allegedly bad-ass Jedi Masters as Kavar, Vrook, Zez-kai Ell, Atris, Zhar and Vandar could not. Or maybe these masters stayed out of the conflict altogether, which would seem absurd as it appeared more and more Jedi Knights, whom they apparently used as pawns in a chess game, seemed to fall to the Dark Side.

 

I find quite a few problems within that setting. First off, these "powerful" Jedi masters were the apprentices to other really powerful ones: Nomi Sunrider, Thon, Arca Jeth, Vodo-siosk Baas... All these were gifted in the art of Battle Meditation, especially Thon and Nomi, who lived past the war to teach new Jedi. While it is stated Nomi had a natural affinity to the Battle Meditation, it is an art that can be learned, even by those who lack such an affinity. Its only difficult. So what are the odds of Bastila, and Bastila alone be the one to know a speck of it? The Jedi Order had many members, it is absurd to assume only one within the entire Order could wield it. And especially because it was an apprentice, and did not have any Master who knew battle meditation to instruct her to use her powers more efficiently.

 

And even worse: both none of the Jedi and none of the Sith could use battle meditation. Most of the Sith came from the Jedi Order originally, and so they learned from the ones who learned under Arca, Nomi, Thon and Vodo. And none of them had the abilities, either? And where were the teachings of the Sith, too? Did they not pillage just about everything around the tombs of Korriban? So why is it none of them mastered Alchemy, illusions, the kind of abilities that resembled Battle Meditation used by Ommin and Amanoa... There is only one conclusion to draw from all that. The entirety of the Jedi Order, and the entirety of Revan's Sith, was a bunch too stupid to learn even the most basic form of Battle Meditation. Very epic. It takes a Jedi apprentice to be able to defeat a Sith nobody of the time.

 

And an even more pathetic turn of events, happens when Bastila is captured after crash-landing on Taris. She was the one who ravaged the powerful Sith lords, she led Revan into a trap, and while I personally believe she and her bunch of lame Jedi should stand absolutely no chance against a Sith Lord, if Revan ever was worthy of the title, the game doesn't care to suggest that in any way. So, we have the great Jedi general, who lost her lightsaber, and got "distracted" looking for it, when she was overwhelmed by a staggering number of lame Black Vulkar thugs. So she goes on later to show that, even without a lightsaber and with a restraining collar or whatever, she could best the lot of them along their leader.

 

Then there's those Sith on the academy on Korriban. Every "Sith teacher" should be very powerful, yet they stand above their own apprentices only a little, as seen when you fight them after killing Uthar and killing/redeeming Yuthura. And then there are the "fully graduate" Sith archaeologists on the Valley of the Dark Lords. A sorry collection of cowards, who don't deign to enter a Tomb to catch a dumb sword, or break some droids. The Sith apprentices have a lot more stomach and nerve than the ones who were supposed to be their superiors. And so "master Uthar wanted to keep the tombs as challenge for the students". Another lame concept. These Sith seem to be awfully helpful towards apprentices, when they should be hounding them, making their lives real hell. It seems only Jorak Uln had the right idea, to capture apprentices and test their resolve, giving as reward reward another day's survival. And it is this poor collection of Sith that "graduate" from Korriban are absolutely destroying the Jedi and the Republic. Something seems to be wrong with that concept.

 

Still on Korriban, there is the attitude of the Sith apprentices as well. It annoys me greatly that all they find of typically evil to do is bully the hopefuls. Distasteful even, as they seem a poor collection of high school bullies, such as when Lashowe intercepts Revan at the academy's entrance. They should be crossing each other, attempting to poison, kill, ambush, lead into traps or otherwise try to kill their rivals, in a game for survival and favor of their Dark Masters. Instead they band together and begin preying on the pathetic Sith hopefuls.

 

Then there is Darth Bandon, the worst Sith Lord in history. He begins as the evil Sith leading the assault on the Endar Spire. But it seems to me the creators forgot to put him in the important role he really bore: the right hand man of the Dark Lord of the Sith. He simply vanishes after engaging Trask, hell, it seems he even dies when the Endar blows up. Just another generic Dark Jedi, as the countless ones Revan slaughters throughout the game. It is only halfway through the game the man resurfaces, and he kills a Sith trooper just because he walked past him, and he had to stop. I mean, what the hell was that?!? A sith trooper crosses in front of the Sithy, then the angry Sithy tosses him against a console, causing its destruction and the death of said trooper. I mean, was that meant to suggest Bandon was a darksider? That he was very evil? Or that he was a lame and unimportant Sith Lord, just a Dark Jedi with a face and a double-bladed lightsaber, that exists only to say Malak had his apprentice and give Revan an enemy with a face and a name for a change. But he's really evil and cool just because he killed that trooper, because he was gonna give Revan a death that was "both quick and painful", and because he wielded a double-bladed lightsaber. Bandon is an excuse for a Sith, and BioWare'd been better off just putting their generic Dark Jedi to face Revan after finding the fourth Star Map.

 

In short, they figured it out all wrong, how powerful individual Jedi and Sith should be and act, especially the Sith on Korriban and Darth Bandon.

 

And then there are the double-bladed lightsabers. Another excuse to make Jedi and Sith look cool. So Kun creates the concept of the double-bladed lightsaber. Suddenly it becomes a fever, with Jedi and Sith alike wielding it. To the Jedi, a lightsaber defined a Jedi. The only thing that set a double-bladed lightsaber from a regular one was that the first one was a more efficient killing instrument. As such, it was contrary to Jedi belief. While I don't think there'd be any prohibition, especially in the era of the setting (I am meaning the setting of the Tales of the Jedi: if the Jedi believed double-bladed lightsabers were associated to the Dark Side in KotOR, certainly it would be forbidden, as marriage was). But it seems rather forced that all of a sudden double-bladed lightsabers become a fever to both sides.

 

The concept of the Rakata is also rather stupid to me. In KotOR, they seemed to invent the Hyperdrive, usage of the term Darth by the Sith, blasters (rakatan turrets used by the Elders)... The game even goes as far as suggesting the Sith Empire was only set because the Sith controlled the Star Forge. All in all, the game places undue importance in their own idea of the Rakatan Empire to the detriment of everything else: Revan and Malak were winning not because of the Sith teachings, but beacuse of the Star Forge. The rakata this, the rakata that. The Sith fall by the wayside, when everything revolves around a silly space station (hmmmm.... Death Star). The difference between the Death Star and the Star Forge is that the Death Star is what it is because of the Sith. But on KotOR, the Sith are what they are because of the Star Forge. In fact, that makes a lot of sense, since there is no Sith Lord of apprentice that seems to be something at all formidable, except for Malak, who has a fundamental necessity of being something worthy of notice because he is, after all, the final boss. But he does not stand out particularly from his servants, power-wise until he finds out he can leech the life force of Jedi... when he "wields" the Star Forge. So he is only different of his followers... because of the Star Forge. There it is, the fundamental plot excuse, that turns a poor collection of lame Sithies into the bad-ass breakers of the Republic.

 

All this is just one aspect of the game's storyline and setting, and yet it is very long. I could continue, but I'd spend all my day and not cover all the topics that convince me KotOR 1 and 2 are nothing but crap, story-wise.

 

You're really stretching at this point.

 

Am I? Revan never abandoned his prized suit of armor with the mask, as Vader did. Sure Vader didn't have much of a choice on the matter, but a Sith Lord clad in black armor with a bleak mood and a distinctive mask suggests Darth Vader right away. Its psychological, and I'm certain our "dear" friends at BioWare thought of it when they bred the Sith Lord in a mandalorian mask.

 

Then there is Malak. Malak has an attitude that reminds me an awful lot of Vader as he was at the start. A brute. Killing, destroying and burning worlds for the supremacy of the Sith. Vader only turned to the sophisticated Sith Lord, with a dark, brooding mood and a pragmatic demeanor some fifteen years after his fall. And then there's the maiming. Vader's losing his limbs in his duel against Obi-wan is a trademark feature of the Sith lord. But BioWare tried to emulate it with Malak, which is, in my opinion, a poor attempt to summon the "feel" of Darth Vader: a crippled Sith Lord who speaks through an artificial breathing contraption, and a jawless Sith Lord who speaks through an artificial speaker.

 

And Malak's cornering of the heroes at the beginning of the game is very reminiscent of Vader's cornering of the heroes in the beginning of Episode IV. Two survivors, fleeing the conflict in an escape pod. Although I do know 3PO and R2 are very different from Revan and Carth, tell me who did not think of the assault on the Tantive IV when they began the game. In this case, Darth Bandon plays the role of Vader in the assault itself, although Vader never personally took part in combat, it is implied Bandon was leading his Storm... I mean Sith troopers. But it is Malak who, in orbit around Taris, orders his followers to corner the only hope for the heroes. Vader ordered a search for the battle plans. Malak ordered the destruction of Bastila. While not the same, it shows clear inspiration and emulation.

[christos200]

darth primus, whats the name of your book? it took me 30 minutes to read it. are you going to post and another part of this book?

 

i found something at wookiepedia:

 

Set shortly after the Star Wars: Tales of the Jedi comic books from Dark Horse, the game bears little resemblance in appearance and aesthetics to the classic Star Wars games of the Clone Wars or Galactic Civil War eras. However, while the Tales of the Jedi series shows the galactic civilization to have an archaic retro-like aesthetic and technology (semi-organic skeletal ships with wings and membranes, stone buildings, etc.) the Knights of the Old Republic is more space-like and futuristic, yet the interval between them is only a few decades. One example of these changes was the use of navcomps and blasters in place of the hyperspace beacons and pulse-wave blasters of the Tales of the Jedi setting. The redundancy of the hyperspace beacons in particular would have dramatically reshaped the astrographic and strategic realities for space travel in the galaxy.

 

Additionally, the game provided a full history of Tatooine and also explained the origins of Kashyyyk's ecosystem. It also offers up an alternate theory as to the original home planet of Humans by having a Sand People historian remark on the player's similarity to the ancients of their people, kidnapped by the Rakata many years before, implying that Tatooine is in fact the planet on which Humans originated. In order to emphasize its place in continuity, there are references and future events (like a possible first contact with the Yuuzhan Vong).

 

As the game is set during a period long before the familiar films, the creators modeled their 'universe' on many characters and details from the movies, as well as including mentions of conceptual ancestors (for example, the Sith fighter is considered to be an ancestor of the later Sith Infiltrator) but not always (while Sith troopers seem to be based on the movie-era stormtroopers, it doesn't mean the clone troopers were historically based on them). Other examples of this include the modeling of characters, such as Darth Malak, a towering Dark Lord of the Sith who speaks through a vocabulator due to an old injury, very similar to Darth Vader, and the inclusion of Wookiee and droid companions as part of the player's party. Additionally, many scenes have direct analogues in the films, such as the capture of the main character's freighter smuggling vessel, the Ebon Hawk, by tractor beam, just as the Millennium Falcon was captured by the Death Star, followed by a prison break and loss of a character on board a vessel, which is very similar to the Death Star scene in the original film.

 

There are also errors in regard to previous events such as the formation of the Republic. Several characters refer to it as having been established 15,000 years prior, [18] as opposed to the canonical 21,000[7] (although facts in the load file does state the Republic as being more than 20,000 years old).

[TKA-001]

Hehe. What do you despise about the Prequels? The Jedi Council? A Sith Lord with a double-bladed lightsaber? These concepts surface immediately when the game starts. Perhaps you hate the fact Sith only use red-bladed lightsabers. Maybe you hate that Jedi cannot marry. Or the term padawan. Or the midi-chlorians.

I'm not someone who dislikes the Prequels much, but if I was, I would feel brutally insulted by this paragraph.

 

As to the power structure of the Jedi Order, of course it changes everything. The Exile's rebellion and her current situation as of the end of the Mandalorian Wars becomes the leading plot mechanics to move KotOR 2, and the Council's orders regarding the discovery of the Star Forge also are the motion force of the first game.

Don't give me that. The Jedi Order as of ToTJ did have people in charge; whether they're called the Council or not has nothing to do with the plot. And again, there's nothing precluding the forming of the Counci in between that series and the games.

 

Now, let's go over the person Bastila Shan for a bit. She is called a "Padawan" (an anachronistic use of the term)

Do I need to put this in caps or something? Nobody gives a good ****, and anyone who does is looking too closely.

 

First off, these "powerful" Jedi masters were the apprentices to other really powerful ones: Nomi Sunrider, Thon, Arca Jeth, Vodo-siosk Baas... All these were gifted in the art of Battle Meditation, especially Thon and Nomi, who lived past the war to teach new Jedi. While it is stated Nomi had a natural affinity to the Battle Meditation, it is an art that can be learned, even by those who lack such an affinity. Its only difficult. So what are the odds of Bastila, and Bastila alone be the one to know a speck of it? The Jedi Order had many members, it is absurd to assume only one within the entire Order could wield it. And especially because it was an apprentice, and did not have any Master who knew battle meditation to instruct her to use her powers more efficiently.

 

And even worse: both none of the Jedi and none of the Sith could use battle meditation. Most of the Sith came from the Jedi Order originally, and so they learned from the ones who learned under Arca, Nomi, Thon and Vodo. And none of them had the abilities, either? And where were the teachings of the Sith, too? Did they not pillage just about everything around the tombs of Korriban? So why is it none of them mastered Alchemy, illusions, the kind of abilities that resembled Battle Meditation used by Ommin and Amanoa... There is only one conclusion to draw from all that. The entirety of the Jedi Order, and the entirety of Revan's Sith, was a bunch too stupid to learn even the most basic form of Battle Meditation. Very epic. It takes a Jedi apprentice to be able to defeat a Sith nobody of the time.

So far you seem to be the only person who gives a **** whether there is an implied continuity error here. All these Battle meditation rules and continuity assumptions you make don't have anything to do with whether the story is good or not.

 

And an even more pathetic turn of events, happens when Bastila is captured after crash-landing on Taris. She was the one who ravaged the powerful Sith lords,

Battle meditation does not equal incredible formidability in combat. Besides, wasn't she knocked out or something upon crashing?

 

while I personally believe she and her bunch of lame Jedi should stand absolutely no chance against a Sith Lord, if Revan ever was worthy of the title, the game doesn't care to suggest that in any way.

I'm someone who hates Revan-wanking, so I'm surprised at how much more your defecation of him and everyone else in the two games annoys me.

 

Then there's those Sith on the academy on Korriban. Every "Sith teacher" should be very powerful, yet they stand above their own apprentices only a little, as seen when you fight them after killing Uthar and killing/redeeming Yuthura.

Now you're even reaching at frigging game mechanics for support?

 

And then there are the "fully graduate" Sith archaeologists on the Valley of the Dark Lords. A sorry collection of cowards, who don't deign to enter a Tomb to catch a dumb sword, or break some droids.

Never mind that all the dangerous **** inside the tombs are capable of killing the player character and party...

 

till on Korriban, there is the attitude of the Sith apprentices as well. It annoys me greatly that all they find of typically evil to do is bully the hopefuls. Distasteful even, as they seem a poor collection of high school bullies, such as when Lashowe intercepts Revan at the academy's entrance. They should be crossing each other, attempting to poison, kill, ambush, lead into traps or otherwise try to kill their rivals, in a game for survival and favor of their Dark Masters. Instead they band together and begin preying on the pathetic Sith hopefuls.

So when Lashowe double-crosses you over the holocron, that one guy whose name I don't remember cornering you for the sword of Ajunta Pall, etc don't count.

 

Then there is Darth Bandon, the worst Sith Lord in history. He begins as the evil Sith leading the assault on the Endar Spire. But it seems to me the creators forgot to put him in the important role he really bore: the right hand man of the Dark Lord of the Sith. He simply vanishes after engaging Trask, hell, it seems he even dies when the Endar blows up. Just another generic Dark Jedi, as the countless ones Revan slaughters throughout the game. It is only halfway through the game the man resurfaces, and he kills a Sith trooper just because he walked past him, and he had to stop. I mean, what the hell was that?!? A sith trooper crosses in front of the Sithy, then the angry Sithy tosses him against a console, causing its destruction and the death of said trooper. I mean, was that meant to suggest Bandon was a darksider? That he was very evil? Or that he was a lame and unimportant Sith Lord, just a Dark Jedi with a face and a double-bladed lightsaber, that exists only to say Malak had his apprentice and give Revan an enemy with a face and a name for a change. But he's really evil and cool just because he killed that trooper, because he was gonna give Revan a death that was "both quick and painful", and because he wielded a double-bladed lightsaber. Bandon is an excuse for a Sith, and BioWare'd been better off just putting their generic Dark Jedi to face Revan after finding the fourth Star Map.

I defy anyone else in the world to be so worked up over Bandon's lack of characterization that they must express their disapproval in as many billions of words as you do here.

 

The only thing that set a double-bladed lightsaber from a regular one was that the first one was a more efficient killing instrument. As such, it was contrary to Jedi belief.

What? A guy can accidentally kill himself with it like, three times easier than a regular saber. Even ignoring that, I beg that you tell me where/when in the canon the double-bladed saber is stated to be against Jedi doctrine or philosophy.

 

But it seems rather forced that all of a sudden double-bladed lightsabers become a fever to both sides.

...I don't remember any Jedi in the KotOR series other than Bastila in 1 and Zez in 2 having double-bladed lightsabers.

 

[the Rakata invented the] usage of the term Darth by the Sith

Er, no. "Darth" came from two of their words, allegedly. I don't even remember this being in the game, in fact.

 

The game even goes as far as suggesting the Sith Empire was only set because the Sith controlled the Star Forge.

****ing where does it suggest that?

 

Revan and Malak were winning not because of the Sith teachings, but beacuse of the Star Forge.

First of all, they didn't have the Star Forge when they decisively won the Mandalorian Wars, and Revan is touted by just about everyone in the universe as an infallible strategist. The Star Forge is only what made the Sith unbeatable in the long-term, and what's wrong with that? It's the main thing the protagonists need to find and destroy, the driving object of the plot (not the ****ing orders of the Jedi Council).

 

there is no Sith Lord of apprentice that seems to be something at all formidable

Don't give me that. Revan is considered widely in-universe as a master manipulator, military leader, and lethal fighter of Jedi. But feel free to continue ignoring and/or downgrading his achievements because you don't like him.

 

Am I? Revan never abandoned his prized suit of armor with the mask, as Vader did. Sure Vader didn't have much of a choice on the matter, but a Sith Lord clad in black armor with a bleak mood and a distinctive mask suggests Darth Vader right away. Its psychological, and I'm certain our "dear" friends at BioWare thought of it when they bred the Sith Lord in a mandalorian mask.

First of all, Revan's armor is not black. It's gray, or dull red-gray, or some ****. Point is, it's not straight-up black like you're insinuating, and there's nothing in common between the two appearances other than the inclusion of armor and a mask.

 

****, you remind me of the people who rake against the prequels not because they think the actors or plot or whatever are bad, but because it's not their ideas. People who latch onto ridiculous minutiae from the movies (Anakin being a farmer on Tatooine, Obi-Wan working for Leia's father in the Clone Wars), early EU books they like (every single Jedi disappearing when dying, Thrawn Trilogy saying the Clone War was where the Republic fought against a clone army, Vader's hand originally being cut off as punishment for the defeat at Yavin) and endlessly complaining that because they weren't used, then what was done instead is an absolute travesty and the "wrong" story. Again, your essay of a post doesn't have anything in the way of legitimate criticism - instead focusing on tiny continuity conflicts between KoTOR and a comic series that's barely even connected to it, along with the connection of some similar plot elements to the movies and the absolutely unforgivable similarities in visual style.

[Darth Primus]

Don't give me that. The Jedi Order as of ToTJ did have people in charge; whether they're called the Council or not has nothing to do with the plot. And again, there's nothing precluding the forming of the Counci in between that series and the games.

 

The closest Jedi TotJ ever "put in charge", as you suggest, was Odan-Urr. And the only thing he deigned to do was counsel Ulic against trying to infiltrate the Krath. He did not work to stop Ulic, or even banish him from the Order until he returned upon the Republic as a Sith Lord, trying conquer Coruscant.

 

True, there's nothing precluding the formation of a Council after the Great Sith Wars, but it'd be unlikely for the newly formed Council to rein in the entire Jedi Order as KotOR sets it right away. Besides, Jolee's counts during K1 specifically state the Council actually did exist during the war against Exar, and that it held the power and authority to ban a specific Jedi, or to make him a Jedi Knight.

 

Do I need to put this in caps or something? Nobody gives a good ****, and anyone who does is looking too closely.

 

I do. And no, its not about looking too closely. The term is only there because it is mentioned endlessly on the Prequel Trilogy. Period. So yes, it is anachronistic, and part of why KotOR is so deplorable: it is part of the Prequel-aged setting of the game, intended to make it recognizable a digestible to simpler Star Wars fans.

 

Battle meditation does not equal incredible formidability in combat. Besides, wasn't she knocked out or something upon crashing?

 

It does not. But one who stood against Revan's personal Sith escort (as seen in the visions) and later defeated a whole bunch of these thugs alongside their leader should be able to stand her own against them. And no., she wasn't unconscious. She admits to have been looking for her lightsaber when the vulkars caught her.

 

Now you're even reaching at frigging game mechanics for support?

 

So its OK to you that a bunch of Sith Masters don't have it where it counts? Game mechanics are part of plot development, specially in the case when you have to downgrade an otherwise formidable opponent for the sake of game mechanics.

 

Never mind that all the dangerous **** inside the tombs are capable of killing the player character and party...

 

Are they the only powerful beings on Korriban? Wouldn't there be at least one or two Sith to match Yuthura, for instance?

 

So when Lashowe double-crosses you over the holocron, that one guy whose name I don't remember cornering you for the sword of Ajunta Pall, etc don't count.

 

Heh. It does, but the initial impression sticks: these Sithies are a bunch of teenager bullies who saw a chance to pry a few magic toys from the hands of the first minimally powerful being to step inside the Academy since Yuthura.

 

What? A guy can accidentally kill himself with it like, three times easier than a regular saber. Even ignoring that, I beg that you tell me where/when in the canon the double-bladed saber is stated to be against Jedi doctrine or philosophy.

 

How's to Jedi vs. Sith: the Essential Guide to the Force work for you? It places the feelings of the Jedi Council regarding double-bladed lightsabers quite undoubtedly. Zez was a member of his council. He was even closer to the time of Exar Kun. It would've been much easier for their likes to associate the double-bladed lightsaber to the Sith. Especially that council, that was so prone to forbidding pretty much everything that was forbidden by the time of the Prequels.

 

...I don't remember any Jedi in the KotOR series other than Bastila in 1 and Zez in 2 having double-bladed lightsabers.

 

I'm pretty sure at least a few of the Jedi use them during the Star Forge attack. And there aren't enough Jedi in K2 to assert anything, but at least one of the Jedi besides Bastila in the vision in Ludo Kressh's tomb wield a double-bladed lightsaber.

 

Er, no. "Darth" came from two of their words, allegedly. I don't even remember this being in the game, in fact.

 

I must be mistaken. But the earliest recorded usage of the term is with Revan and Malak, and the comics on KotOR state it is indeed of Rakatan origin.

 

****ing where does it suggest that?

 

Take a look at Ajunta Pall's conversation. He says the Sith knew the Star Forge even before the Dark Jedi came upon their worlds. He also says it was the source of the dark power of the Sith.

 

First of all, they didn't have the Star Forge when they decisively won the Mandalorian Wars, and Revan is touted by just about everyone in the universe as an infallible strategist. The Star Forge is only what made the Sith unbeatable in the long-term, and what's wrong with that? It's the main thing the protagonists need to find and destroy, the driving object of the plot (not the ****ing orders of the Jedi Council).

 

Fighting Mandalorians is one thing. But fighting the Republic, alongside the entire Jedi Order, is something else entirely. Revan and Malak weren't truly Sith during the mandalorian wars, they only became such afterwards, and because of it. And even after turning, they only returned to the republic when they seized control of the Star Forge, with its factory to back up the Sith forces that were decimated.

 

Well, there were many ways to fight the Sith, other than destroying the Star Forge. Revan could've helped, for example, in the defense of Dantooine, with his impecable strategic mind. But he is set on the quest mainly because the Council told him to. After all, soon after discovering the Star Forge's existance, the Jedi had no idea what the space station truly was, they only assumed it must've been of utmost importance that Revan and Malak risked looking for information on it on a Jedi-controlled world.

 

Don't give me that. Revan is considered widely in-universe as a master manipulator, military leader, and lethal fighter of Jedi. But feel free to continue ignoring and/or downgrading his achievements because you don't like him.

 

Yeah, Revan and his world-class genius mind still didn't manage to outmaneuver Bastila. After all, he could learn to avoid her, for instance, or lure her into a trap, a situation where her BM would be useless. But instead, he was constantly being beaten until he himself fell to a trap laid by the Jedi, that sealed his own fate as Dark Lord and that of his entire Sith Empire. If Revan was supposed to be such a brilliant strategist, he shouldn't have fallen like he did.

 

First of all, Revan's armor is not black. It's gray, or dull red-gray, or some ****. Point is, it's not straight-up black like you're insinuating, and there's nothing in common between the two appearances other than the inclusion of armor and a mask.

 

So its not black! He's not, then, a Sith Lord permanently clad in armor. And it doesn't resemble Vader, I take it, because the armor is not black. Don't give me that, the resemblance is clear enough, and Revan's demeanor as a Jedi also suggest Anakin Skywalker, with his brashness and eagerness to join conflict for the greater good. A demeanor that, when exposed to a very experienced darksider (allegedly some Sith Emperor from Dromund Kaas, according to canon regarding Revan's fall), enabled him to be lured to the Dark Side and head-first into the Sith.

 

Besides, it is like I said: the two Dark Lords in the game make up one Vader, when looks are concerned.

 

****, you remind me of the people who rake against the prequels not because they think the actors or plot or whatever are bad, but because it's not their ideas.

 

So I'm not entitled to dislike KotOR, just because I can't seem to articulate my opinions as well as you can? Certainly KotOR is not my ideas. I find it abhorrent for many reasons, and this is my saying why.

 

People who latch onto ridiculous minutiae from the movies (Anakin being a farmer on Tatooine, Obi-Wan working for Leia's father in the Clone Wars), early EU books they like (every single Jedi disappearing when dying, Thrawn Trilogy saying the Clone War was where the Republic fought against a clone army, Vader's hand originally being cut off as punishment for the defeat at Yavin) and endlessly complaining that because they weren't used, then what was done instead is an absolute travesty and the "wrong" story.

 

Minutiae? I don't think so. The Council and the restrictive Jedi Order is no small detail: it plays a central role in both games. The same goes to the way the plot develops, in K1 in a childish manner with foolish notions such as the Sith bullies, and K2 in its many Dragon Ball Z-ish absurds of world-eating Sith Lords and a plot to destroy the Force.

 

Again, your essay of a post doesn't have anything in the way of legitimate criticism - instead focusing on tiny continuity conflicts between KoTOR and a comic series that's barely even connected to it, along with the connection of some similar plot elements to the movies and the absolutely unforgivable similarities in visual style.

 

"Tiny". I see TotJ as different from KotOR in every aspect to its core. To you, KotOR gets the right idea, but it reeks of the Prequels at every turn. Not strictly because of the looks, but because how the worlds go about their business, and how the most important bodies - the Sith and the Jedi - act and feel.

[Astor]

Revan could've helped, for example, in the defense of Dantooine, with his impecable strategic mind.

 

That wouldn't be the same mind that was very nearly destroyed during his defeat, and then reprogrammed by the Jedi, would it?

[Xavier2]

Using crystals on technological devices wasn't new probably even when Superman was released. Its a logical sci-fi clichè that Lucas merely avoided.

Yes it is a cliché, but not a Star Wars cliché. One could say technology based on crystals would be far more advanced than the one based on circuits which is the base technology for the Star Wars universe in 4.000 years previous.

 

 

Then I suggest the next time you waste your time and my breath speaking of TotJ, you should read the first line at every issue of the series: 4000 YEARS BEFORE THE BATTLE OF YAVIN. TotJ sets not only Star Wars, but also the timeline, perfectly. The galaxy is supposed to look ancient. TotJ makes it feel that way.

I remember a panel in TOTJ where Naga Sadow stares at a pool of water/liquid and actually sees what is happening in another chamber. It doesn't feel very ancient to me regarding SW timeline.

 

Perhaps the Stargate hype inspired the comic authors to create a diversion in SW universe.

[Darth Primus]

Yes it is a cliché, but not a Star Wars cliché. One could say technology based on crystals would be far more advanced than the one based on circuits which is the base technology for the Star Wars universe in 4.000 years previous.

 

So I suppose you're taking into consideration real-life science and engineering to build your argument? Crystal technology may seem more advanced to us, but Star Wars is fiction. Since crystal technology is not seen anywhere (except on lightsabers and perhaps blasters, I don't know) in the time of Luke and Vader, why not make something quite different from that for the time of Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma? It's commendable even, if you ask me.

 

I remember a panel in TOTJ where Naga Sadow stares at a pool of water/liquid and actually sees what is happening in another chamber. It doesn't feel very ancient to me regarding SW timeline.

 

And can you tell he was not simply using the pool to channel the Force into displaying a vision? TotJ feels very ancient because it looks dramatically different from the movies, and a lot more bleak and sinister. For example, the only light in Sadow's ship the Corsair seemed to flow from the crystals

 

Perhaps the Stargate hype inspired the comic authors to create a diversion in SW universe.

 

I don't care about Stargate. I care about Star Wars. At least TotJ looks different than Luke's galaxy. Part of why I don't like KotOR is because its galaxy does not, when its supposed to look different. If they didn't want to summon the looks and the feel of TotJ, they still could've made something different from the movies. It'd still seem forced to me (since fourty years are not supposed to herald an absolute change in just about everything in the galaxy where design or technology is concerned), but at least it wouldn't be the spitting image of the future galaxy.

 

But then, it still wouldn't be recognized as Star Wars by most fans aside from the text crawl. And the Sith and Jedi, but then, from what I've heard people say, I guess that's not Star Wars after all.

[adamqd]

One thing I must point out is that a lot of TOTJ was Drawn by Chris Gossett and Dario Carrasco Jr, whose style's of art summons a very archaic Egyptian style... If you look at Carrasco's Jedi academy Graphic Novel (Set during the early NJO) It too has that feel. But I still think Jumping from This to This in 40 years could be a stretch

[christos200]

Kotor is not a copy of PT,darth primus, the attack on Dantooine you say is a copy of ep 3 attack on coruscant,because episode 3 was realeased at 2005 while kotor 1 at 2003. maybe ep 3 copy kotor. and the purge of jedi on kotor 2 is an OT copy not a PT because if it cannot be a copy of ep 3 purge because kotor 2 was realeased at 2004.

 

You may think Kotor 2 is not star wars. thats untrue. first of all you criticize kotor 2 of overpowerd sith lords but one of the creators of TOTJ said that after sith war 3, the sith wars became a circus. kotor 2 is beter than TOTJ because its not the usual fight of the bad and the good guy. its more philosofical. in Nar Shaddaa for ,examble, kreia says ,after you gave a poor man money, that what you did for good became bad. and after saws a video of an other poor man killing the poor man ,that you gave the money, for his money. you really think of what will happen if you use light or dark side of the force. and many star wars fans say that kotor 2 is more starwarshy than TOTJ.

[Xavier2]

So I suppose you're taking into consideration real-life science and engineering to build your argument? Crystal technology may seem more advanced to us, but Star Wars is fiction.

Well you raised the argument of ancient technology. If there isn't a standard reference then your point of view could be as far fetched as any.

 

And can you tell he was not simply using the pool to channel the Force into displaying a vision? TotJ feels very ancient because it looks dramatically different from the movies, and a lot more bleak and sinister. For example, the only light in Sadow's ship the Corsair seemed to flow from the crystals

They can build Insect like Starships with crystals controling it and they couldn't come up with a simple lamp?

 

I don't care about Stargate. I care about Star Wars. At least TotJ looks different than Luke's galaxy. Part of why I don't like KotOR is because its galaxy does not, when its supposed to look different.

You clearly have great fellings about TOTJ as most of us do for KOTOR. The game frustated your expectations regarding aesthetics and lore and as much we find justifications and arguments to defend KOTOR you may find yours to slander it.

 

It seems crystal (oh no...) clear that TOTJ, not KOTOR is at trial here since the elements that enthusiast you the most have been discarded from continuity. Were those concepts and ideas that good and inovative? I don't think so simply put. Some of it's ideas were ripped from other franchises, others didn't felt like SW and a couple of others were just bad (Master Ooroo, a Brain Jedi? Jedi Order is the Green Lantern Corps now?)

[TKA-001]

True, there's nothing precluding the formation of a Council after the Great Sith Wars, but it'd be unlikely for the newly formed Council to rein in the entire Jedi Order as KotOR sets it right away. Besides, Jolee's counts during K1 specifically state the Council actually did exist during the war against Exar, and that it held the power and authority to ban a specific Jedi, or to make him a Jedi Knight.

If there was not an authority in the Order that was at least equivalent to the Jedi Council, then what's up with the Conclave on Deneba? Who summoned all the Jedi there, if not the Order's leaders?

 

I do. And no, its not about looking too closely. The term is only there because it is mentioned endlessly on the Prequel Trilogy. Period. So yes, it is anachronistic, and part of why KotOR is so deplorable: it is part of the Prequel-aged setting of the game, intended to make it recognizable a digestible to simpler Star Wars fans.

What source tells us that the title didn't exist back then?

 

It does not. But one who stood against Revan's personal Sith escort (as seen in the visions) and later defeated a whole bunch of these thugs alongside their leader should be able to stand her own against them. And no., she wasn't unconscious. She admits to have been looking for her lightsaber when the vulkars caught her.

So her lack of infallibility makes her a wuss.

 

So its OK to you that a bunch of Sith Masters don't have it where it counts? Game mechanics are part of plot development,

Uh, no it isn't. Else it would be canon that people can take many more shots from a blaster than we see in, say, the movies, before going down.

 

Are they the only powerful beings on Korriban? Wouldn't there be at least one or two Sith to match Yuthura, for instance?

What would the point of the tombs be if they're cleared out by the time the player gets to them? Furthermore, no, I don't think there would be Sith as powerful as Uthar or Yuthura on Korriban. The place is a training center for green Force-sensitive recruits to prove themselves, so it stands to reason that the Empire's more powerful dark-siders would be kept out in the war, where they'll actually be useful. Plus, having Sith who can challenge the academy's head master and his right-hand man/woman would potentially lead to some rather bloody restructuring of the place's leadership.

 

How's to Jedi vs. Sith: the Essential Guide to the Force work for you? It places the feelings of the Jedi Council regarding double-bladed lightsabers quite undoubtedly. Zez was a member of his council. He was even closer to the time of Exar Kun. It would've been much easier for their likes to associate the double-bladed lightsaber to the Sith. Especially that council, that was so prone to forbidding pretty much everything that was forbidden by the time of the Prequels.

A direct quotation would help. And again, how is it actually a more efficient tool for killing?

 

Take a look at Ajunta Pall's conversation. He says the Sith knew the Star Forge even before the Dark Jedi came upon their worlds. He also says it was the source of the dark power of the Sith.

Errr, no. Pall at no point mentions the Star Forge. He makes an indirect reference to some place where the Sith got their power, but nothing implying the Star Forge. If anything, it probably has something to do with the Sith in the Unknown Regions.

 

Well, there were many ways to fight the Sith, other than destroying the Star Forge. Revan could've helped, for example, in the defense of Dantooine, with his impecable strategic mind. But he is set on the quest mainly because the Council told him to.

Actually, seeing as Dantooine evidently had no fleet or garrison protecting it, Revan would pretty much definitely had been captured or killed there. And he was told to find the Star Forge because he was the only one who knew anything about it.

 

Yeah, Revan and his world-class genius mind still didn't manage to outmaneuver Bastila. After all, he could learn to avoid her, for instance, or lure her into a trap, a situation where her BM would be useless. But instead, he was constantly being beaten until he himself fell to a trap laid by the Jedi, that sealed his own fate as Dark Lord and that of his entire Sith Empire. If Revan was supposed to be such a brilliant strategist, he shouldn't have fallen like he did.

First of all, you're insinuating that the Sith Empire was not only not curb-stomping the Republic for the entire war, but also that Revan was consistently losing campaigns, both of which fly in the face of everything said about it in both games.

 

Second, your logic basically amounts to saying that since Revan was eventually defeated, then he wasn't a good Sith. Why does that not apply to the Sith of TotJ?

 

Revan's demeanor as a Jedi also suggest Anakin Skywalker, with his brashness and eagerness to join conflict for the greater good. A demeanor that, when exposed to a very experienced darksider (allegedly some Sith Emperor from Dromund Kaas, according to canon regarding Revan's fall), enabled him to be lured to the Dark Side and head-first into the Sith.

Headstrong, arrogant Jedi who wanted to fight for the greater good and fell to the dark side because of the manipulations of an experienced dark-sider... You know who else that sounds a lot like? Exar Kun.

 

So I'm not entitled to dislike KotOR, just because I can't seem to articulate my opinions as well as you can? Certainly KotOR is not my ideas. I find it abhorrent for many reasons, and this is my saying why.

I'm therefore sure that you will in turn respect my right to hold the opinion that your reasoning is flawed and irrevocably nonsensical.

 

Minutiae? I don't think so. The Council and the restrictive Jedi Order is no small detail: it plays a central role in both games. The same goes to the way the plot develops, in K1 in a childish manner with foolish notions such as the Sith bullies, and K2 in its many Dragon Ball Z-ish absurds of world-eating Sith Lords and a plot to destroy the Force.

Stop telling me that the Jedi Council is a pivot on the plot of the two games. That would be Revan in the first one and Atris & Kreia in the second.

 

Furthermore, I don't see why you get so hung-up about the Sith hopefuls being *******s to hapless citizens. They're the lowest-ranking, least refined grunts in the entire Empire; they'd be cannon fodder if not for their Force sensitivity. What do you expect?

 

And I've said this before, but don't talk about Nihilus' abilities and Kreia's plot being silly and "Dragon Ball Z"-esqu when you worship a series with Sith Lords that can destroy ****ing star systems, yet fail to actually use such powers intelligently.

[Darth Primus]

If there was not an authority in the Order that was at least equivalent to the Jedi Council, then what's up with the Conclave on Deneba? Who summoned all the Jedi there, if not the Order's leaders?

 

It does not matter who summoned the conclave on Deneba. The final word still belonged to Ulic - the Watchman of the Empress Teta system. The greatest Jedi leader, Odan-Urr, merely sought to advise him against his chosen course of action, but didn't go beyond that. Every Jedi must choose his own path, was the Jedi philosophy of the time of Exar Kun. But on KotOR, one sees the Council taking a much more central role. For example, the Council would've actively tried to stop Revan, if he began riling things up on Coruscant, or Dantooine. But from what I could tell, they simply went to war, and then they were followed. No contact at all was made with the Jedi Council, or the tale would've been told a lot differently, from what the creators of KotOR set the Council to be in "their" timeline.

 

What source tells us that the title didn't exist back then?

 

TotJ. And the posterior tales, between Exar Kun and the Republic Golden Age, preclude the term's use as well.

 

So her lack of infallibility makes her a wuss.

 

An apprentice capable of standing up to Revan's personal Sith bodyguard (that Dark Jedi she fights onboard Revan's ship as seen in the visions) all on her own should be able to stand up to a poor collection of biker thugs as the Black Vulkars. Easily, one might add.

 

Uh, no it isn't. Else it would be canon that people can take many more shots from a blaster than we see in, say, the movies, before going down.

 

That's not a valid argument. The Sith master you fight on the Temple of Ancients on Rakata is a tough fight. At least one or two Sith masters from the academy on Korriban should be that tough, or else their apprentices themselves could easily kill their masters. So yes, when you consider Korriban, game mechanics such as enemy difficulty is a detriment to what the academy should feel like.

 

What would the point of the tombs be if they're cleared out by the time the player gets to them? Furthermore, no, I don't think there would be Sith as powerful as Uthar or Yuthura on Korriban. The place is a training center for green Force-sensitive recruits to prove themselves, so it stands to reason that the Empire's more powerful dark-siders would be kept out in the war, where they'll actually be useful. Plus, having Sith who can challenge the academy's head master and his right-hand man/woman would potentially lead to some rather bloody restructuring of the place's leadership.

 

Yeah. And Uthar had always kept Sadow's tomb as the final challenge for graduation. How did the other students who graduate get past the terentatek? Or did Uthar keep reviving them? Or creating new ones? Revan and Malak were on Korriban before creating their Empire. Would they not have paid a visit to the tombs of at least one or two of the most powerful Sith Lords, such as Marka Ragnos or Ajunta Pall? Certainly the objects of power contained within would be fitting to the first two Sith Lords since Exar Kun.

 

A direct quotation would help. And again, how is it actually a more efficient tool for killing?

 

I'll have to resort to Wookieepedia's article on double-bladed lightsabers, since I c]don't have access to the Essential Guide:

 

"During the Jedi Civil War, double-bladed lightsabers became very popular among the Sith forces, with even some Jedi wielding the weapon. However, Jedi Council traditionally frowned on use of saberstaffs, believing a traditional lightsaber was enough, and considering the double-bladed lightsaber little more than a weapon designed to kill more effectively, while the Jedi developed the lightsaber to defend. Though there was no rule forbidding its use, the Jedi discouraged their students from attempting to create or use this weapon. Despite this, even some Jedi Masters, such as Zez-Kai Ell, took up the weapon.

 

Well, there you have it. Although there was no rule forbidding its use, its use was discouraged. Especially after Kun. It also seems to me that there not being any rule actually exists because Bastila and that master used it for pretty looks on K1 and 2.

 

Errr, no. Pall at no point mentions the Star Forge. He makes an indirect reference to some place where the Sith got their power, but nothing implying the Star Forge. If anything, it probably has something to do with the Sith in the Unknown Regions.

 

Oh please. He clearly insinuates the Dark Jedi got their powers not from the Dark Side, not from their artifacts, but from some "secret" source. In the end, everything on Korriban is only there to point the player towards the Star Forge. Why else would the Star Map be contained in the most important tomb to the Sith of the time: Naga Sadow's? The Sith in the Unknown Regions is another absurd: Kreia states that the Sith Emperor escaped the Great Hyperspace wars. True, but he died on Yavin, Freedon Nadd saw to it. While it is quite possible for there to be tons of survivals on the Sith side after the battle on Korriban, that was long after the time of Ajunta Pall. Why would he make references to the Jen'jidai's (the Dark Jedi - first of the non-Sith rules of the Sith species) power as being at all related to a group of individuals that wouldn't even come into prominence in the Empire (as being the sole survivors of the war) at least twenty thousand years into the furture?!?

 

Actually, seeing as Dantooine evidently had no fleet or garrison protecting it, Revan would pretty much definitely had been captured or killed there. And he was told to find the Star Forge because he was the only one who knew anything about it.

 

Anyone could search for the Star Maps. Vrook could, for instance, he seemed quite capable. And the Jedi could call for the Republic's aid, and hide while they waited. There was also Bastila's overrated battle meditation. The Jedi could've held their ground against the Sith for quite some time, if that was the case. Until help could arrive, for instance.

 

First of all, you're insinuating that the Sith Empire was not only not curb-stomping the Republic for the entire war, but also that Revan was consistently losing campaigns, both of which fly in the face of everything said about it in both games.

 

Well, all it took to beat him was an apprentice with a little Battle meditation. Revan should've been able to outmaneuver Bastila, especially because he had the "infinite fleet and army" from the Star Forge, if he was such a bloody mastermind of combat tactics.

 

Second, your logic basically amounts to saying that since Revan was eventually defeated, then he wasn't a good Sith. Why does that not apply to the Sith of TotJ?

 

I'll tell you why: there was nothing that told Revan apart from a common ravaging Dark Jedi with some talent for strategy. What made him a true Sith? Palpatine was a master of Sith alchemy, Vader was empowered by it as well. Darth Tyranus spent a long time searching for Sith artifacts, even the fabled holocron of Darth Andeddu. Revan allegedly plundered the ruins on Korriban, but had no Sith artifacts to back him up until he returned there as a Jedi. The same goes for Malak. He had no holocron, no Sith spirit, nothing to show him the ways but a non-Sith space station that spat droids and ships. "But there's the Sith Code" you might say. Even a Dark Jedi can follow the Sith code, that doesn't make him a Sith. If that were the case, there would likely be many many Sith during the Rise of the Empire, because all of Dooku's and Sidious' Dark Jedi were likely molded by Sith philosophy.

 

What I'm trying to say is: Revan was not an heir to the Sith tradition, as Darth Ruin, Sidious and Exar Kun were. He was an heir to the Rakatan Empire's workings on the Dark Side.

 

Headstrong, arrogant Jedi who wanted to fight for the greater good and fell to the dark side because of the manipulations of an experienced dark-sider... You know who else that sounds a lot like? Exar Kun.

 

Kun had another thing to turn him, the thing that got him intertwined with Nadd in the first place: he believed he could master the Sith arts without falling to the Dark Side. Kun didn't want to "fight for the greater good". He wanted to revive ancient powers and arts, and incorporate them into the Jedi arts. But he was swallowed in the end, not by Nadd, but rather by the Dark Side itself. So much so that, when Kun gave himself fully to the Dark Side and mastered the Sith amulet, he turned on Nadd and killed him. Nadd was only a guide to show Kun the door. It was Kun himself that pulled through, and wriggled free of all external influences to become the true Dark Lord of the Sith.

 

Revan was instead "sent on an errand" after the Star Forge by his emperor, and was only a rebelled vassal from what I can tell.

 

I'm therefore sure that you will in turn respect my right to hold the opinion that your reasoning is flawed and irrevocably nonsensical.

 

You can think what you will, I don't cre. To me, your KotOR devotion is nonsensical.

 

Stop telling me that the Jedi Council is a pivot on the plot of the two games. That would be Revan in the first one and Atris & Kreia in the second.

 

Nonetheless, it plays central role. Kreia was after the Council members, if they fell, the Jedi would be scratched off the equation. And the Council enabled Atris' and Kreia's plot from the start, by banishing the Exile.

 

Furthermore, I don't see why you get so hung-up about the Sith hopefuls being *******s to hapless citizens. They're the lowest-ranking, least refined grunts in the entire Empire; they'd be cannon fodder if not for their Force sensitivity. What do you expect?

 

Pfeh. The lowest-ranking, least refined grunts of the Sith Empire aren't supposed to be a legion of Force-sensitive bullies. They're supposed to be the troopers and mercs working for the Sith. Force-users are the masters, heirs to the Gods that dominated the Sith species twenty thousand years earlier. Those below them are beneath contempt and recognition. To a proper Sith apprentice, contemporizing with the hopefuls in the way they do in KotOR should be rather disgracing. Being Force-sensitive is something special, there shouldn't be a legion of bullies to be cannon fodder. That's simply ridiculous, and it trivializes the role of Force-sensitives in the setting as a whole. And of the Sith too, for that matter.

 

And I've said this before, but don't talk about Nihilus' abilities and Kreia's plot being silly and "Dragon Ball Z"-esqu when you worship a series with Sith Lords that can destroy ****ing star systems, yet fail to actually use such powers intelligently.

 

Just because its not shown on the comics doesn't mean there isn't a rather large toll to using that power. And the fact the Sith didn't use it to swallow every system they invaded is testament to that, actually. As it seems, only the Corsair was equipped with the proper focus (the crystals) to channel that kind of destruction, and even so, it took a master of the Sith arts to do it safely. Destroying the stars is a matter of last resort, and Sadow's works could really go awry if misused, as Aleema clearly shows in the Sith Wars story arc.

 

But Nihilus' abilities are always there, lurking. And Lord Galactus would use his powers to kill the last of the Jedi. Every Sith Lord in K2 has his own distinctive absurd trait. Kreia can hide her presence even when her Force powers are removed from her, and make herself unseen to even the greatest of Jedi Masters. Sure Palpatine could do the same, but he had the Dark Side ever growing on his back, and the Jedi's own dogmas of the time clouded their vision. And Palpatine never had his connection to the Force cut as Kreia had. Nihilus was world-eater Lord Galactus, and Sion was a walking corpse nearly impervious to all wounds. Much more DBZ-esque than Ulic, that was a powerful weaponmaster and warrior, and Kun, that could master the ancient arts of Sith sorcery to create dark-side monsters, channel the power of the Sith spirits and the Dark Side, and commit ritual suicide to perpetuate his presence in the Force as a spirit.

[christos200]

You're wrong. You clearly haven't played K1 and 2 and/or actually read Tales of the Jedi, or you just like to complain. Characters, organizations, planets, and so on from TOTJ do show up in KOTOR, and both BioWare and Obsidian loved to delve in the background of the era. In fact, one of the first things Obsidian did on the job was to read the Tales of the Jedi comics.

 

A lot of what you're describing had even been changed long before BioWare came along. Things like the term Sith, red lightsabers, and the history of the Jedi had not been set in stone in the 90s, and this led to continuity errors caused by various authors contradicting each other without even knowing it. When Lucas finally sat down and defined a clearer history, Tales of the Jedi and others like it became out of date.

 

Most of the changes the two developers made were stylistic ones. Technology that's falling apart and armored guys riding on the backs of flying robots were hard to portray at the time in a video game, and still are today. And in a lot of cases, they just thought it looked silly. These kinds of changes are common when adapting something from one media to anther. Stylistic elements of a comic don't always work in another format.

 

Furthermore, when designing K1, BioWare initially planned to have the game more connected to the Tales of the Jedi series. It was to take place sooner after the Sith War, and Bastila Shan was actually Vima Sunrider, a character from TOTJ. When they were not allowed to do this for legal reasons regarding the name Sunrider, they decided to stay away from the comics more than they planned, setting the game a full 40 years after the Sith War and 30 years after the last TOTJ comic; characters who might have made an appearance in the game were now just names from history, while others had their backgrounds rewritten to fit the new timeline.

 

You're also conveniently ignoring one important plot point: both the Jedi and the Sith freakin died after the Sith War. This is not something new. This was shown in Tales of the Jedi.

 

The Jedi Order, with many of the oldest masters dead, was rebuilt from the ground up by younger Jedi like Nomi Sunrider. There were no masters left to teach the next generation, and many of the great teachings were lost. Even the damn Jedi library at Ossus was destroyed, and this is mentioned in K2. In fact, Atris' motivation throughout the game is to prevent this from happening again.

 

The Sith, on the other hand, were completely dead. In fact, they had been completely dead in Tales of the Jedi too. Then they came back, caused a lot of trouble, and were then completely dead again! The Sith of KOTOR were different from the Sith of TOTJ; they were not trained by Sith, as Exar Kun, Ulic Qel-Droma, and the Krath had been. These were fallen Jedi, more like the original Dark Jedi that were cast out and later became Sith - no doubt why the conflict is later called the Jedi Civil War. They did scavenge the tombs of Korriban and other worlds, seeking out the knowledge of the past Sith Lords, but as clearly shown in K1, this wasn't something easy; the Sith had left traps behind, so their enemies couldn't steal their treasures, and only the most worthy Sith could survive and claim their secrets. K2 explains even further that many of these artifacts had been destroyed by eager Sith who didn't handle with care. And the Knights of the Old Republic comics even portray a shadow organization of Jedi tasked with hunting down and destroying Sith artifacts from the war. Again, this is not something new. The Jedi from TOTJ hid all knowledge of the Sith from their students as well. Others had made their way into the hands of those who couldn't grasp what they had - into museums and such. By KOTOR, the Sith were thoroughly dead twice over. And what secrets Revan did learn from the ruins of the Sith Empire, he kept hidden even from Malak.

 

The rest of your complaints are simply laughable. Even when the games are actually stylistically faithful to Tales of the Jedi, you find something to complain about. A padawan with an unusual apt for Battle Meditation, a skill that normally takes years to develop - yeah, Nomi Sunrider was supposed to be Bastila's mother. A walking corpse and a Force vampire would also fit right in with ghosts and a zombie in a tin can. Tales of the Jedi is known for its more supernatural take on the Force, by far more so than anything else in the Expanded Universe, and some of these elements show up in the games, more so in K2.

 

If you have seen anything of Star Wars beyond the films, by now you should know that other writers have other perspectives, that they disagree a lot, and you should be used to it. Hell, even TOTJ contradicts itself all the time, because there were two writers on board - Anderson and Vetich - who each had their own agenda. Star Wars is full of continuity errors and inconsistencies. If you have a problem with that, fine, but you can't blame it on one work that happens to not "fit in" with another from 15 years ago - especially when Lucas himself had already retconned the hell out of it, and when BioWare and Obsidian actually did try their best to keep the spirit of Tales of the Jedi intact. If you were like any normal fan - and by normal, I mean overly obsessed - you would have decided on your own little history that sorted out all the errors, instead of just complaining about it to people who don't care.

[JCarter426]

Is there any particular reason why you decided to trick poor old JC into thinking you were this Darth Primus person, and then rather bluntly copying what JC, responding to this Darth Primus?

[Alexrd]

Plagiarism. That's just wrong.

[adamqd]

LOL, I wondered how he'd suddenly learned how to spell