Bin Ladin is dead

[Sabretooth]

I really doubt Pakistan had much of a role to play in this, and Obama's statements about their help could really just be to hold off the fallout in Pakistan (i.e. the US can just storm in and kill random people in Pakistan if they wanted to). Reports show that Pakistani forces arrived on scene long after the Americans did.

 

Besides, this compound is a stone's throw away from the Pakistan Military Academy, the Pakistani equivalent of America's West Point. Conveniently they never bothered to wonder who lives behind the eighteen-foot-walls topped with barbed wire.

[Liverandbacon]

About time. This was largely a symbolic victory, there are people out there currently who are a far larger threat than Osama has been for quite some time. Time to move on and do the same to them.

 

I hope al-Qaeda falls apart after this.

 

They aren't going to. Far too organized not to be prepared for something like this. Also, I hope they don't, since this is definitely a situation where it's better to have a known evil than an unknown one, as it makes gathering intelligence easier. If Al Qaeda completely disintegrated, its various parts would form new groups, or latch on to others.

 

No, job well done by all the soldiers from all the countries that have served, scarified and died to fight this war against al-Qaeda and terrorism. Be it abroad or here at home.

 

Thanks. I'd just recommend adding intelligence agencies to that list.

 

Is anybody else finding it disturbing that intelligence regarding this operation appears to have been confined to the military and Obama? We don't know how many compounds they've blown up until now on faulty intelligence and not heard one peep about it, but now they all get to wave their dicks and the air and take credit for going into another country and committing assassination?

 

Transparency would be disastrous for a covert operation. Any information shared with the public can be seen by our enemies, and it's pretty obvious that sharing info regarding this mission before completion would have defeated the entire purpose. As well as crippling intelligence agencies' ability to get anything done, that sort of change would result in mass resignations. I don't know many people who would be willing to dramatically increase their likelihood of getting killed, just so that Joe Average can feel a little bit more in the loop.

[adamqd]

Amazing news. Has anybody heard more of the circumstances?

 

Initial reports say either a missile or bomb, possibly from a drone, got him. CNN is saying he was killed in a mansion outside of Islamabad in Pakistan. I hope al-Qaeda falls apart after this.

 

News reports this side of the Pond are reporting a single gunshot to the head, American Bullet... Apparently they have Photos of the Body, but obviously too graphic for TV.

[Astor]

Apparently they've disposed of his body at sea.

 

While it is of course good news, and a massive story at that, I can't see it affecting things much.

[Liverandbacon]

Ugh, apparently they're doing the sea-burial in accordance with Muslim tradition. Screw that. Wrap him in a pig skin and feed him to some other pigs, a la Snatch.

 

The idea that all people deserve respect in death is absurd.

[Astor]

Ugh, apparently they're doing the sea-burial in accordance with Muslim tradition. Screw that. Wrap him in a pig skin and feed him to some other pigs, a la Snatch.

 

The idea that all people deserve respect in death is absurd.

 

I agree, especially with the person in question, but I can understand the burial at sea, though. It'd make finding and retrieving his body near impossible.

 

But then again, they did that in Transformers, and they could have easily incinerated the body.

 

And apparently there are some pictures of his body doing the rounds on the internet. Obviously I can't link to them here, but they should be easy enough to find for anyone determined to see for themselves, or just morbidly curious.

 

EDIT: I wonder, was this one of the important things Obama mentioned during his Birth Certificate speech?

[Darth_Calo]

US army breached and cleared the mansion he was hiding in. crossfire ensued. four dead, no american lives lost. Osama Bin Laden personally fired at American troops but was killed by a single assault rifle round to the head. Also dead, One of Bin Laden's sons, as well as his top courier and the courier's brother. Quick, clean, and simple. Body was photographed, identified, and disposed of in accordance to Muslim traditions with a burial at sea. good riddance.

[adamqd]

I think the burial at sea was to avoid some kind of extremist shrine if he were buried, or left in the hands of his family. Throw him in the sea, a drop in the Ocean... I think the Muslim tradition part is the "Disposal within 24 hours" rather than the Method, which could of course just be public relations or coincidence, rather than respect for the body.

[Darth_Calo]

I think the burial at sea was to avoid some kind of extremist shrine if he were buried, or left in the hands of his family. Throw him in the sea, a drop in the Ocean... Good riddance.

 

probably. I personally think they should have burned the body but hey what do I know

[Primogen]

It's one last finger given to the extremists - we terminated our enemy, and now we're treating him with -respect-. Just one more sign that we're better than them in every way that matters.

[Pho3nix]

Oh dang, I always imagined bumping into him somewhere and getting the bounty. I'd rather have him alive than dead.

[Alexrd]

Obama just assured his re-election.

 

Anyway, one less terrorist in the world.

[Astor]

Obama just assured his re-election.

 

 

I don't know. I'm sure people might have thought the same about Bush Snr. and the first Gulf War.

 

Besides, a lot can happen between now and election day. Just look at what's happened so far this year, and it's only just May.

[Alexrd]

I don't know. I'm sure people might have thought the same about Bush Snr. and the first Gulf War.

 

Besides, a lot can happen between now and election day. Just look at what's happened so far this year, and it's only just May.

 

No, you're right. My comment was more like a small joke to his presidential campaign, since (IIRC) he promised to end the fight against Bin Laden & Co.

[Q]

Oh dang, I always imagined bumping into him somewhere and getting the bounty. I'd rather have him alive than dead.

It's actually much simpler and cleaner this way. No opportunity for him to grandstand and attention-whore during the media circus that his trial would become.

 

I also like that they took him out the old-fashioned way, with a bullet to the head in a firefight, instead of with a missile from a drone. If I were him, I'd want to go down swinging like that, too, so it actually worked out well for both sides, IMO.

[jrrtoken]

 

I have to admit, I thought this was pretty much an April Fool's joke; but after a while it was pretty disarming that this actually happened. Honestly, I'd thought that he'd just end up like Jimmy Hoffa in a netherworld of eternal obscurity. P. cool.

 

Though, I have to admit, most of the images of Americans celebrating gives off a really overly-jingoistic vibe. Unfortunately, it reinforces the stereotype of Americans as debased, aggressive (DEY DOOK ER JOBS) ignoramuses. I guess you can just say "Well, they're New Yorkers", but whatever.

 

I think the burial at sea was to avoid some kind of extremist shrine if he were buried, or left in the hands of his family. Throw him in the sea, a drop in the Ocean... I think the Muslim tradition part is the "Disposal within 24 hours" rather than the Method, which could of course just be public relations or coincidence, rather than respect for the body.

Pretty much; it's as much a Muslim tradition as cremation is a Hindu one. Really, most Muslims are good ol' fashioned, buried-in-the-ground; there's nothing particularly exclusively Muslim (read: exotic paganism) about it.

[mimartin]

Though, I have to admit, most of the images of Americans celebrating gives off a really overly-jingoistic vibe. Unfortunately, it reinforces the stereotype of Americans as debased, aggressive (DEY DOOK ER JOBS) ignoramuses. I guess you can just say "Well, they're New Yorkers", but whatever.

Kind of puts Americans on the same level of those that took to the street celebrating 9/11/2001. Only Bin Ladin was the aggressor that started it.

 

I’ll admit celebrating a death, any death irks me, but celebrating the death of what Bin Ladin has come to symbolize is understandable in my opinion.

Thanks. I'd just recommend adding intelligence agencies to that list.

Very true! Could even add the politicians to the list for at last letting the intelligence agencies and military define the information gathered instead of the politicians putting their own spin on it and having the military invade Fiji.

[Mandalorian Knight]

As an Army guy, I'm jealous of the SEALs that got to pull this off. Congrats to them though, those DEVGRU guys don't mess around.

 

It'll be interesting to see how this affects Al Queada (sorry about the spelling). I think that the best we can hope for is for them to splinter and begin infighting. Still dangerous, but their capability to plan an execute attacks would be significantly diminished.

[Primogen]

If it were anyone else, I'd agree with the sentiment that celebrating is a little messed up. But this is Osama Bin Laden - public enemy #1. With him dead, the world has a little bit less of a cause to be fearful. And I hope it's the beginning of the end for the people of the United States and our fellow nations having to be afraid every time they go into an airport or train stations.

[Liverandbacon]

I think the burial at sea was to avoid some kind of extremist shrine if he were buried, or left in the hands of his family. Throw him in the sea, a drop in the Ocean... I think the Muslim tradition part is the "Disposal within 24 hours" rather than the Method, which could of course just be public relations or coincidence, rather than respect for the body.

 

No, it's the method too. Prayers were recited, the body was washed and wrapped in cloth, etc. It'd be just as impossible to turn his body into a shrine if he was wrapped in a pigskin and fed to starving hogs, or even just wrapped and burned, or dumped into the ocean without ceremony. Public relations for who? The people who think he deserves dignity? We shouldn't pander to that sort of person.

 

It's one last finger given to the extremists - we terminated our enemy, and now we're treating him with -respect-. Just one more sign that we're better than them in every way that matters.

 

We have enough of those 'signs'. Anyone who doesn't see who's better isn't going to change their mind.

 

Obama just assured his re-election.

 

Although he had little to nothing to do with this, other than signing a piece of paper he was presented with. What president wouldn't sign that particular order? The number of people talking about this as proof of how great Obama is, and how clearly Democrats get things done, pisses me off. No political figure deserves any credit for this, left or right.

 

Though, I have to admit, most of the images of Americans celebrating gives off a really overly-jingoistic vibe. Unfortunately, it reinforces the stereotype of Americans as debased, aggressive (DEY DOOK ER JOBS) ignoramuses. I guess you can just say "Well, they're New Yorkers", but whatever.

 

Kind of puts Americans on the same level of those that took to the street celebrating 9/11/2001.

 

If someone can't see how celebrating the groundless murder of thousands of innocents is entirely different from celebrating the killing of a man responsible for the deaths of thousands, who wanted to kill more, and had become a symbol to like-minded individuals, they're beyond help.

 

Osama killed thousands of my countrymen. This included family friends and almost my own father. He attacked my country without provocation. He was a symbol to those who have tried to kill me, and killed many of my friends over the last 10 years. He gloated about all this, and wanted to attack again. He very likely could have. If celebrating his death makes me overly jingoistic, debased, aggressive, racist, and ignorant, those words must have changed their definition since I last checked. The truly ignorant thing is criticizing people for celebrating the death of the man who wanted to kill them, did all of this, and planned to do more.

 

Very true! Could even add the politicians to the list for at last letting the intelligence agencies and military define the information gathered instead of the politicians putting their own spin on it and having the military invade Fiji.

 

I'm hesitant to praise politicians just for being less incompetent and arrogant than they ordinarily are. Congress' attempts to hamstring the US intelligence community over the past 40 years or so, as a power grab in the endless tug of war between the branches of government, have been over the top and shameful. The fact that politicians backing off a little for one mission is seen as them being generous illustrates how institutionalized this crippling has become. I'll stop here, to avoid getting too off topic and going off on a rant about the many flaws in Congressional oversight.

 

As an Army guy, I'm jealous of the SEALs that got to pull this off. Congrats to them though, those DEVGRU guys don't mess around.

 

It'll be interesting to see how this affects Al Queada (sorry about the spelling). I think that the best we can hope for is for them to splinter and begin infighting. Still dangerous, but their capability to plan an execute attacks would be significantly diminished.

 

One thing you'll learn: The media always gives the SEALs credit. I really have no clue why, but according to the news, there've been things I've participated in that were apparently done by the SEALs, not the 75th or anything else I've been involved with. That's news to me. However, considering the info that it was a joint CIA + SEAL attack is coming from the government in this case, it's actually accurate. No hate here for the SEALs, they're excellent warriors, just bemusement at their higher media profile.

 

I'd say infighting is unlikely, as is any kind of disintegration. Osama was in hiding, and his influence on AQ's day to day operation was very limited. The people who have been actually leading AQ for quite a while now are still around. Honestly, I almost prefer that to a bunch of splinter groups, since the more well known a terrorist group is, the harder it is for them to put any plans into action without information about them getting to us.

[Astor]

I don't personally understand celebrating Bin Laden's death. He ceased to have much importance a while ago, even if he did remain an important symbol for AQ. That said, though, I'm not an American, and nothing he's done has really affected me in any meaningful way.

 

I'm more interested now in how Pakistan's Government and Security Forces answer some pretty serious questions.

[mimartin]

If someone can't see how celebrating the groundless murder of thousands of innocents is entirely different from celebrating the killing of a man responsible for the deaths of thousands, who wanted to kill more, and had become a symbol to like-minded individuals, they're beyond help.

Let's look at the rest of what I wrote in that same post.... I guess it has just become a habit in Kavar's to quote a line and ignore the rest of what someone wrote. Which is the reason I'm done posting in Kavars. Only this topic lead me to believe this thread would be safe. For what it is worth, like I wrote above I understand people celebrating.

[Liverandbacon]

Let's look at the rest of what I wrote in that same post.... I guess it has just become a habit in Kavar's to quote a line and ignore the rest of what someone wrote. Which is the reason I'm done posting in Kavars. Only this topic lead me to believe this thread would be safe. For what it is worth, like I wrote above I understand people celebrating.

 

I was mainly objecting to PastramiX's post. TBH your post just confused me because you said it was understandable, yet you also said it put our citizens on the same level as the enemy. I wasn't really sure which you saw as the primary point, the sort of thing that would be easier to interpret if I knew the 'tone of voice' that you were typing each part with, sadly impossible to communicate with text.

 

I try to avoid taking things out of context (which I agree is done far too often here), but I really didn't know how to make sense of two seemingly contradictory points you were making. TBH, I still can't figure out whether you understand it but think it puts them on the same level, or understand it but see why some people might think it puts them on the same level (subtly but importantly different). It's my fault for not making my confusion clearer.

 

I'm sorry that this misunderstanding has contributed to your decision to stop posting in Kavar's. For what it's worth, I valued your posts, because although we didn't always agree (didn't always disagree either), you tended to argue your points in a rational manner, using real evidence, and not just baseless 'you're wrong because you're wrong' opinions.

[Lord of Hunger]

I don't personally understand celebrating Bin Laden's death. He ceased to have much importance a while ago, even if he did remain an important symbol for AQ. That said, though, I'm not an American, and nothing he's done has really affected me in any meaningful way.

In the USA, symbolism is a big deal. Americans on average have most of their basic material needs assured (relative to the third world at least), so we tend to get excited about things that are often purely emotional. It's why we have a lot of religious and spiritual individuals in spite of our consumerist culture, for example. We know water is going to come out of the tap, so we make sure the flag is safe instead. It's also why we sue each other for the most trivial reasons.

 

Yeah, symbolism is everything here in the US. Bin Laden may not have any strategic value in the war on terror, but we'll still feel really good from the closure provided by the SEAL that put a bullet in his head.

[SITH LORD 872]

I hope he has fun swimming with the fishes, However in my opinion it doesn't justify the thousands of innocent lives lost, 9/11 should have never happened.

 

But we still need to stay focused, and our minds sharp, where there is one trying to cause death and suffering there is another, That could do far more damage!!