Revan: The Novel Spoilers (Oh god...)

[Darth Avlectus]

EDIT, 10-06-11: It seems I might be being harsh. Part of this was due to my initial revolt when I originally posted which I'd think is fairly understandable. I am sorry if it offends, but I am not sorry for being opinionated.

 

Now that I have had some time to remove that revolt, let me clarify: I am not BASHING on Karypyshyn. I don't think I like how it is for the exile because I am a bigger fan of the Exile than Revan, but I'll accept it considering the alternatives. Furthermore I do agree with Drew Karpyshyn that to leave the Exile OUT would be an insult.

 

I can accept what happens to Revan because, again, Revan was created by Drew Karpyshyn and anything players got to do with Revan was strictly 'borrowing' the character.

 

Same goes with the Exile. Anything we do is "borrowed".

 

I don't like being put back into a spectator role (as J7 says below) and disagree with it intensely. Still, it is what it must be.

 

I wish others would acknowledge that. /EDIT

 

@Topic: I would not say that KOTOR 2 has been retconned so much as marginalize because it was not largely known to the galaxy. Basically just because something is not spelled out or given specific attention does not mean that it necessarily has been retconned.

 

However it seems Drew Karpyshyn has responded to criticisms that K2 has been retconned. I'll let you decide for yourself.

 

Linky

========

@ spoiler:

Now I looked carefully at the page on the right in that spoiler image of the proto-book and text.

 

From what little I could decipher

it talks about Revan still being alive and of use. Possibly from the Emperor's point of view. It's very hard to read and you can't see all of it. However, it does seem the Sith Emperor has left Revan alive.

 

 

 

Thanks for posting all this info, Avlectus...

But this one page is it? Revan doesn't break free to have an actual duel with the Emperor? Seems a bit of a wussy way to go for him. For the Exile, okay...beytrayal was the central theme of her story anyway. And refusing to pass on to the netherworld in order to piss off the Emperor feels like her as well.

 

Okay so we have some common ground on the Exile... Hold on a moment... I'm feeling sick from what has been done.....

<BAAAAAARRRRRRF!>

Sorry. Just heaving up my exile fanboyism.

 

As far as Revan being "taken down in such a wussy way"...well, look at the bright side: you can't call him a mary sue anymore now, can you?

Not at Ztalker but @ Revan fanboys in general: Seriously, if everyone is still complaining about him being a mary sue and yet also complains about him NOW being taken down so easily (which would tend to negate that mary sue thing), then you need your head examined. /rant

 

Besides, the emperor took a cheap shot anyways.

 

I don't think this was meant as a finale but merely a transition, as a supplement to the game.

 

Actually, I have sort of had this notion in my head building up for awhile now, that somehow Revan is still alive even into the old Republic. (I wish it wasn't the case, but it looks like it's happeing. Oh well.) I personally think we have been looking at "Revan" since 2009. I have found some little hints to this end. It's a genius idea.

 

Also note this book will be short:

http://drewkarpyshyn.com/c/?p=296

DK

So, Revan is “only” 320 pages or so. Because that’s how long it took to tell the story I wanted to tell. Some readers might be disappointed by this. Some readers might finish the book and feel like they wanted more details about what happens to Revan and the other characters in the book. But for me, that’s not the worst thing.

 

If somebody wants more, that means they enjoyed what was there. That means they were entertained by what they read. They were engaged in what was happening. And to me that’s a far, far better thing than boring my audience with filler.

 

Fair enough.

 

For your interest:

http://drewkarpyshyn.com/c/?p=239

DK

And don’t expect Revan in the novel to be the invincible bad-ass you played at the end of KOTOR. Because that would be boring and lame. Revan is still a bad-ass, but even bad-asses can get their asses kicked by other bad-asses. And the relative badness of a specific ass rises and falls based on numerous factors throughout the narrative arc, so that a wuss-ass at the beginning of the novel may become the ultimate bad-ass at the end.

 

Got it? Good. Later.

 

Drew

 

Whadya know, Revan isn't all powerful like his fanbase wants to believe.

 

However, I don't know if the hair on toy figures is canon. I recall a story about a Revan toy which had a bald head. That doesn't mean 'bald Revan' is the canon Revan though. He could've shaven his head. Just like Nihilus could've been in a Bob Marley mood. I'd prefer Three Little Birds over evil theme music any day...

 

Who shot the sheriff, now?

 

Yeah that's why I said speculative. Also I know about the bald Revan figure which was made that way in order to be able to make the hood thing work.

 

I guess I'm trying to critically analyze this using symbolism and abstracts as evidence. The best ways you can tell if symbolism is in play are prominence and coincidences.

 

Fatal alliance novel by itself made no sense whatsoever in the greater scheme of things and yet even as much of a cluster**** as this is all turning out to be, they still would not put someone up in a main novel who wasn't important in some way.

 

However there are a lot of seemingly random odds and ends. At first they make no sense, until you begin searching out similar instances and associated narratives with those instances.

 

Darth Jadus and bio. Okay... at first we're kind of .

Analyze the bio and find the character is a lot like Nihilus minus the hunger thing. Then Aurebesh says he also has a daughter. In an odd sort of way that makes sense as a nod to Visas. The Sith council is also wary of him, but he has no "hand" (force user) in his employ, only strictly intelligence.

 

Next, who would that daughter be? I don't know for sure...but I made an educated guess.

I find a human dreadlocked redhead sith woman Eldon Ax stands out a bit for standard SW fare. Don't you? The only other person with hair like that...is the nihilus figure's hair. Well okay, Quinnlan Voss had dreadlock hair but has no relevance here.

 

 

 

You'll see Eldon Ax will be associated with the dark council as Dath Howl's apprentice. From the novel we know what happened to her mother. However she never knew her father. In a direct context it makes no sense, but in the abstract you see now two characters whose blanks fit into each other, plus are in similar but opposing proximity in the hierarchy. To me that suggests there is something to be looked into. Is Eldon Ax the daughter of Darth Jadus? Why would that little fact about him having a daughter be hidden in Aurebesh?

 

 

 

You have the narrative: promising young sith woman who will be watching the back of a councilman, with a promising career ahead. Witty and cunning.

 

 

You have the narrative: a mysterious, enigmatic, emotionless and quiet councilman. Presence almost like death itself embodied. Someone about whom "there can be little doubt he is playing a long game", and in the meantime it is a stalemate in terms of what the other sith would do about him. "Who is the hand of Darth Jadus?"

 

EDIT: @CAD yeah, I guess I should spoiltag even if some of it is publicly available.

[Ctrl Alt Del]

Suddenly we need spoiler brackets on the title because something tells me the last four posts weren't spoiler-free...

[Ztalker]

Suddenly we need spoiler brackets on the title because something tells me the last four posts weren't spoiler-free...

 

Excusez moi. Been away from the forums for quite a while. Should've put spoiler tags around my replies...

 

OT:

After Darth Avlectus posts and seeing the 'Revan' trailer on the website, I can't really shake the feeling that Revan will be dragged out into the game like Arthas was in WoW. Since he's a light/dark character he could be a questgiver for both DS and LS characters. I hope they'll do it in a respectable way though, like was done with Arthas. For people who haven't played WoW: Arthas actually KILLS the players and the raid group. A Deus Ex Machina (ghosts in his sword turning against him, like the finale of the fourth Harry Potter book) are needed to actually get him down. Quite epic.

 

[Darth Avlectus]

Basically what I am saying is the story "twist" of the Jedi Knight and Sith Warrior classes will be something akin to Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi regarding a certain character.

 

@Ztalker: (Wanring, Decieved spoiler)

 

I agree. I think Revan was "reborn" as somebody else through sith alchemy. Namely, as Darth Malgus. There have been too many small hints to this end. The biggest two tip-offs:

 

The force ghost on the Taral V dev walkthrough was referring to Revan, and yet what she said also coincided with Malgus' vision basically of "cleansing the galaxy by fire" and that "the republic wouldn't be the only thing to be cleansed" in the Decieved novel.

 

Also Darth Malgus' birth name "Veradun", of the 3 ways to rearrange it...well I'll let them speak for themselves

1) nu vader= New Vader (for us irl he will be, his similarity to vader is undeniable)

2) un vader= UNVader (a cryptic hint perhaps that someone else is beneath the surface)

3) d revan u= Darth Revan, YOU (....Could it be?)

 

If you still have doubts, look at how much they parallel each other both in roles and personality.

 

[jonathan7]

I sent the following email to Mr Drew Karpyshyn, not expecting a response as I would imagine he's busy with his various projects. Did direct him to this thread so we may hear from him...

 

Dear Sir,

 

I would be greatly appreciative if this could be forwarded to Mr Karpyshyn as I presume this will be reviewed first by an assistant.

 

Firstly I would like to apologise for those members of the KotOR community who have direct abuse at Mr Karpyshyn with regards his upcoming Revan novel, seemingly forgetting that in many respects the whole KotOR Franchise would not exist were it not for My Karpyshyn's award winning work on the first KotOR game. It is similar to the way there are many George Lucas haters, and as bad as I feel the prequels are, and as awful as many of the adjustments to the Original Triology are, people often seem to massively blow up over matters which are essentially not important, and seemingly forgetting that with our Mr Lucas Star Wars would not exist at all; unfortunately the internet is home to both hyper-bowl and extreme obnoxiousness.

 

I can only speak for the majority of forum members of the KotOR section of the Lucas Forums boards where I am a moderator. Firstly we would want to thank you for all you did towards the first game, for the great writing, and for making one of the few genuinely good Star Wars games, as lets be honest Lucas Film and Lucas Arts, now seem more concerned with making money than actually producing good products. However I would say that the community is concerned over the upcoming book, I know my opinion does not count for anything, but ultimately I feel especially the case with the Exile that this book didn't need to include him/her. The essential problem seems to me, is what is the point in making an RPG, if your then later going to decide, the name, sex, force alignment and fate of the players charachter? Instead of allowing a player their little place in the Star Wars universe as a protagonist it is then taken away from the again, and moves them back into a spectator role. For me personally I'm not bothered by retcons, but I think leaving the Exile would of been by far the best course of action, (though I must confess Revan dying does entertain me, in that it would shut all the ego-centric fools who think *they* are the most powerful force user in Star Wars up); if possibly I think leaving Revans gender and pre-memory loss alone would of been good. Though all the above is now beyond a point of being able to change.

 

I have read your blog post of 30th of September, but I can't help disagreeing with it. Whatever your arguments are for the Exile death scene needing to be read in context, it just doesn't fit either of the established characters. It would at least seem to me that Revan's strength was being a great force user and tactician, the Exile on the other hand is a great warrior. Revan I don't think would willingly face the Emporer without a number of pre-requisites, one of them would certainly be not going with a Sith Lord; Revan it would seem to me would not leave such a thing to chance. With regards the Exile, the death doesn't fit the charachter either. Now if they (Revan and the Exile) fought one on one, I think the Exile would win, however it would never get to that point as Revan would set a trap and use others to kill the Exile. As such I don't think having the Exile stabbed in the back by a Sith Lord, is a fitting death at all, regardless of how you try and argue it. That is of course just one fans take, but frankly I think a better death for the Exile is deserved, especially to fans of the second game. Possibly a heroic death sacrificing him/herself for others, which is the characters general story arc would be alot better. Though, I ultimately think leaving the Exile entirely out of it would of been the best course, with regards Revan I don't think that was ever an option with the upcoming MMO and Revan heading off to stop the "True Sith", but c'est la vie. Please don't drag Revan out in TOR, in any capacity other than being a dead body....

 

One fans 2 cents; than you for taking the time to read this letter. The KotOR Lucas Forums thread on your book can be found here; http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?p=2792601#post2792601

 

Kind Regards,

 

jonathan7

[Sir Vougalot]

So, have either of Revan's names been revealed? I say "either" because I find it reasonable to assume that he has had two identities: his birth name, which he would have used up until the Revanchist movement, at which point he became "the Revanchist," followed by "Revan"; and then his new name given by the Jedi Council following his memory wipe, along with an entirely new identity complete with made-up memories. I think it is likely that the Council would have given Revan a name and identity that was completely different from his previous past so as to make it less likely that they would lead to his resuming his mantle of Dark Lord of the Sith.

 

Are either of Revan's names revealed in the book?

[Jaevyn]

To be honest the Taral V flashpoint official video spelt it out in everything but name, so in a way it comes as little surprise to me.

[Lordjedi]

Note: This post is an assumption based on info known or leaked.

 

After seeing the Taral V flashpoint (Thank You, Jaevyn, I had not seen that before) this is starting to make a lot more sense and the book seems better.

For those who had not seen the Taral V flashpoint, please see it here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I0imBz6y38

 

I believe the force ghost in the video is the Exile. What we know so far is she dies and turns into a force ghost. When she is talking to Master Oteg she mentions a prisoner, this prisoner is most likely Revan. She says he has been imprisoned for 300 years and is extremely powerful. After doing some research I found other discussion threads regarding this topic.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/991408-Prisioner-in-TARAL-V-(possible-answer-given-via-Revan-novel)

 

A user in the thread (Page 2) says he read the book and at the end Revan and Lord Scourge are kept alive by a Sith Alchemy technique only the Emperor knows, I would assume it also keeps them from aging (Scourge leaked pictures). I think this means that the Emperor had imprisoned Revan alive to consume his power and Lord Scourge ties in with this as he is a Jedi Knight companion. So I think Revan is not dead, and it's the players (end game content? since Taral V is only a level 32 dungeon I don't think Revan will be rescued) who rescue him.

[Darth Avlectus]

I see some assumptions being made.

 

What makes anyone here think "revan" will still be in cryo incubation when you get to that point?

 

What makes you think a being with such a powerful force essence is going to be left dormant, just laying around for someone to find and rescue?

 

What makes anyone think "Revan" will still be in a form we recognize as the Revan we know?

 

What makes anyone think that "Revan" in whatever form he is currently taking will even remember his previous life?

 

What makes you think that just because

the Exile Ghost

says prisoner, that it is meant literally?

 

I'm suggesting "how about prisoner of the darkness only, like his current form is physically free to roam while the past is a mystery to him". In other words, he is working for the enemy and currently unaware he once sought to destroy it.

 

Note: This post is an assumption based on info known or leaked.

No it was released as a developer walkthrough earlier this year.

 

After seeing the Taral V flashpoint (Thank You, Jaevyn, I had not seen that before) this is starting to make a lot more sense and the book seems better.

For those who had not seen the Taral V flashpoint, please see it here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I0imBz6y38

Um yea we've known about this for a little while. I mentioned it above.

 

I believe the force ghost in the video is the Exile. What we know so far is she dies and turns into a force ghost. When she is talking to Master Oteg she mentions a prisoner, this prisoner is most likely Revan. She says he has been imprisoned for 300 years and is extremely powerful.

See above. It's kind of obvious who she is talking about when it matches up with the timeframe.

 

Her speaking in metaphor about "ashes raining down on lifeless planets" and "stars burning black" also coincides with

Darth Malgus.

 

P.242, SWTOR Decieved, Paul S. Kemp, ISBN 978-0-345-51138-6, Released March 22, 2011

"His vision on Korriban had shown him a galaxy in flames. But it was not just the Republic that required cleansing by fire."

 

Deny it if you will. I have more hints. I've been paying attention. "Revan" has been looking right at us all along, and what is ironic is this time he isn't completely masked. HAHAHAHAHAAAAA!

 

It's great, and nobody believes me either.

 

After doing some research I found other discussion threads regarding this topic.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/991408-Prisioner-in-TARAL-V-(possible-answer-given-via-Revan-novel)

 

Post #19 by Dalagrath is starting to get it on the how.

 

I think when you get to that complex, it will be empty. Revan won't be there.

 

The Emperor knew about it obviously. And if the Emperor ripped the mask off Revan's face and "plumbed revan's mind", don't you think HE could have had access to the complex? I think the complex is part of the story's "end game", as a trap: this will be the case regardless if you are jedi knight or sith warrior.

 

Why Jedi knight is obvious.

 

Why Sith warrior? Well say you killed the Jedi order, and made an example out of the Chancellor and Satelle Shan before executing him and giving her the choice to convert or die.

 

You don't think the Emperor is wary of you? That you aren't a threat to him now? You might just have a vision of being the new emperor yourself. Or maybe you just want to sit back and watch the world burn starting with his corpse.

 

A user in the thread (Page 2) says he read the book and at the end Revan and Lord Scourge are kept alive by a Sith Alchemy technique only the Emperor knows,

Yeah, Transfer Essence. It's really the only way he could have lived for 1000+ years.

 

I would assume it also keeps them from aging (Scourge leaked pictures).

Sith species live for quite awhile, though nowhere near 1000 years if I am not mistaken. But you're right, the emperor could use this technique on any of his subjects, not just himself. (Hint Darth Sidious punished Bevel Lemelisk this way.) It would have to involve something either like Marka Ragnos' alchemical regenerative process (refer to jedi academy), or...cloning.

 

 

 

I think this means that the Emperor had imprisoned Revan alive to consume his power and Lord Scourge ties in with this as he is a Jedi Knight companion.

Why not wipe his mind, give him a new life and make him believe it was the only life he's ever had? Once done, why not arrange to press him into service once more?

 

So I think Revan is not dead, and it's the players (end game content? since Taral V is only a level 32 dungeon I don't think Revan will be rescued) who rescue him.

I agree, it'll probably be end game content. I agree "Revan" is still alive, though not in his original form, and won't realize he needs to be rescued. Which probably means when you encounter "Revan" as he is now, you'll probably have to fight him.

[Blix]

So this is basically the Star Wars version of "My Immortal"?

[jonathan7]

I received a reply from Mr Karpyshyn;

 

Thanks for the e-mail. (By the way - I don't have an assistant who reads

this - you must think we get paid way more than we actually do. None of

the Star Wars writers are what I would call rich - we all have other jobs

to make ends meet.)

 

Your suggestion to leave the Exile alone is one others have made, but it

was never an option. The character is too well known and there is too

strong of a demand from the fan base to know her fate; you would have

preferred not to have her in there, but I believe the (often silent)

majority of the millions of KOTOR fans want to know what happened. And for

me Revan's story wouldn't have made sense without her involvement.

 

 

I appreciate your comments regarding her "death" and my rant against

spoilers, and I thank you for the civil tone you used to deliver them.

However, I stand by my original position. You can't get any real sense of

the characters as I portary them in the novel until you actually read the

novel, and there's a lot more to the final scene than what was "leaked". I

spent 100,000 words building up to that, setting things up, establishing

characters, motivations and other factors, so to judge it based on

somebody's 500 word "summary" is - I believe - unfair to me. You say you

want a heroic, worth death, and once you see what the goal was and what

was accomplished I think you'll realize that is what was achieved.

 

However, you are entitled to your opinion. Hopefully it will change once

you read the novel... but once formed, opinions tend to stay fixed. That's

why I'm urging people to keep an open mind. If you go in thinking you're

against what I've done, it's often a self-fulfilling prophecy, and you're

far less likely to appreciate or enjoy the novel.

 

Drew

[TKA-001]

So this is basically the Star Wars version of "My Immortal"?

No, but that'd be pretty awesome.

[S_W_LeGenD]

I received a reply from Mr Karpyshyn;

@ jonathan7

 

Seriously, your email to Drew would have served no purpose. The book is on the verge of release. And judging by the spoilers, I believe that that Drew has been disrespectful to both Revan and Exile. However, we can only pass final judgment after reading the Novel.

 

Also, I disliked your approach of strongly defending your favorite character, Exile, in your message while you bashed Revan for no apparent reason. This was completely uncalled for and it reveals your jealousy.

 

If you talk about powers, I can put a much more convincing case that Exile wasn't as powerful as her fans make her out to be. She was nothing major without her companions and her being wound of the Force. However, I being a fan of Revan, still dislike the way Exile has been treated in the Novel.

 

Just like the fans of Exile have expectations from there character of getting a good role and performance in the Novel; same is true for the fans of Revan.

 

Unfortunately, Drew had a chance to satisfy the fans of his works worldwide but he seems to have blown off the opportunity. I can think of a far more convincing story but what can you expect from a writer of average caliber?

 

Drew is just OK. He does comes up with brilliant ideas but he is not a brilliant story teller, as far as Star Wars is concerned. And you can never ever expect a Force-Titan from him. He has a very different perception of Force and he believes that the Force has limitations.

[jonathan7]

@ jonathan7

 

Seriously, your email to Drew would have served no purpose.

 

Thanks for your input, though it's my time to waste serving no purpose, and last time I checked I was free to do with my time what I like. Though apart from anything else, I thought it good for Drew to know that not everyone who disagreed with the novel hated or felt the need to flame him.

 

I'm also sorry I hadn't realised two adults weren't allowed to have a conversation/send each other emails even if "it's pointless" (which for point of fact most of our correspondence with other human beings is, for example what purpose did this reply serve? Or my reply back serve? You think I'm going to change my mind after a few ad hominems from you?)

 

Also, I disliked your approach to strongly defend your favorite character, Exile, in your message. At the same time, you bashed Revan for no apparent reason.

 

Great, sorry for having an opinion different to yours. I'll have to remember next time I'm sending an email from my personal point of view, I should actually make it balanced in case someone disagree's. If it bothers you so much why don't you write an email to Mr Karpyshyn?

 

This was completely uncalled for and it reveals your jealousy.

 

Seriously, jealousy? HUGE jump of logic here; Yeah I'm real freaking jealous of a fictional charachter... Or maybe the ammount of people who come on these boards claiming Revan could beat Yoda, Vader, Sidious, Jesus and Gandi's ledt flip flop together just causes me (and others) to be cynical towards "their" Revan. I'd rather my Revan didn't die, but she's a black woman; not the generic male Caucasian most people on these boards are; I'd quite happily see their Revan die.

 

If you talk about powers, I can put a much more convincing case that Exile wasn't as powerful as her fans make her out to be. She was lot less in comparison.

 

So just another Revan fanboy then? Just to note, my opinion was that Revan is a more powerful force user than the Exile as well as being a better leader...

 

Unfortunately, Drew had a chance to satisfy the fans but he seems to have blown off the opportunity. I can think of a far more convincing story but what can you expect from a writer of average caliber?

 

I think whatever Mr Karpyshyn decided to do he would of been criticised by someone, nor do I think a professional writer who is continually re-hired can be of "average caliber".

[S_W_LeGenD]

Thanks for your input, though it's my time to waste serving no purpose, and last time I checked I was free to do with my time what I like. Though apart from anything else, I thought it good for Drew to know that not everyone who disagreed with the novel hated or felt the need to flame him.

 

I'm also sorry I hadn't realised two adults weren't allowed to have a conversation/send each other emails even if "it's pointless" (which for point of fact most of our correspondence with other human beings is, for example what purpose did this reply serve? Or my reply back serve? You think I'm going to change my mind after a few ad hominems from you?)

Did I insulted you or something? It seems you got offended by my response.

 

You can email Drew a thousand times and I wouldn't care. However, your message to him that you revealed here is not fair to Revan fans in my opinion. You dubbed Revan fans as ego-centic fools in your message, which is a very clear insult.

 

Great, sorry for having an opinion different to yours. I'll have to remember next time I'm sending an email from my personal point of view, I should actually make it balanced in case someone disagree's. If it bothers you so much why don't you write an email to Mr Karpyshyn?

Sending an email to Drew now would serve no purpose. Because the Novel is going to be released soon and we cannot expect any changes in it. We are too late for this exercise.

 

Also, you can have different opinion from me. I have no issue with it but your message is not balanced. Read it yourself and then get back to me. When you are addressing a writer, you should try to be fair in your message, if you plan to reveal it in the public.

 

Seriously, jealousy? HUGE jump of logic here; Yeah I'm real freaking jealous of a fictional charachter... Or maybe the ammount of people who come on these boards claiming Revan could beat Yoda, Vader, Sidious, Jesus and Gandi's ledt flip flop together just causes me (and others) to be cynical towards "their" Revan. I'd rather my Revan didn't die, but she's a black woman; not the generic male Caucasian most people on these boards are; I'd quite happily see their Revan die.

I am not the one who made those claims. Judging by how badass Revan was portrayed during KOTOR games, people generally perceived Revan to be very powerful. This still does not justifies the position you took for Revan in your message. I can argue that Revan was indeed a brilliant tactician but he was not afraid of facing his enemies head-on, if he had to. That is what he did against Mandalore the Ultimate, Yusanis, Juhani, Darth Bandon, Bastilla Shan (Dark), and Darth Malak.

 

Also, I admire Yoda, Vader, and Sidious. Yoda and Sidious were certainly among the most powerful Force users in Star Wars mythos. Vader is also among the decent lot.

 

So just another Revan fanboy then? Just to note, my opinion was that Revan is a more powerful force user than the Exile as well as being a better leader...

No, I am not just another Revan fanboy. I do understand the character of Revan a lot better then you do.

 

Also, what is this?

 

"Now if they (Revan and the Exile) fought one on one, I think the Exile would win, however it would never get to that point as Revan would set a trap and use others to kill the Exile."

 

I think whatever Mr Karpyshyn decided to do he would of been criticised by someone, nor do I think a professional writer who is continually re-hired can be of "average caliber".

Again, some authors have great talent and can write great stories. Drew is not among them. However, this does not suggests that Drew would not get to write Star Wars related work.

[jonathan7]

Did I insulted you or something? It seems you got offended by my response.

 

Seriously re-read what you wrote?

 

You can email Drew a thousand times and I wouldn't care. However, your message to him that you revealed here is not fair to Revan fans in my opinion. You dubbed Revan fans as ego-centic fools in your message, which is a very clear insult.

 

Seriously? At any point did I say all Revan fans are ego-centric fools? I made the claim that people who think Revan is the strongest force user ever are; because essentially they are Revan, and as they are Revan they give a number of different attributes to Revan which make him unbeatable.

 

Stop applying your own generalisations of what I said to every Revan fan.

 

Sending an email to Drew now would serve no purpose. Because the Novel is going to be released soon and we cannot expect any changes in it. We are too late for this exercise.

 

So because something is going to be released feedback shouldn't be given?

 

Also, you can have different opinion from me. I have no issue with it but your message is not balanced. Read it yourself and then get back to me. When you are addressing a writer, you should try to be fair in your message, if you plan to reveal it in the public.

 

Why? I shared it in this thread to share something I'd send and would let anyone know if I received a reply. Why should I be fair in my message? Although actually I think most people would agree that my message was fair, though essentially your dislike of it seems to come from the facts that;

 

a) Your main and biggest gripe; That I think the Exile could beat Revan one on one.

b) I dislike people who think Revan can kill everything ever.

c) Some perceived slight on Revan's power.

 

I am not the one who made those claims. Judging by how badass Revan was portrayed during KOTOR games, people generally perceived Revan to be very powerful.

 

Revan was one of the most powerful force users of his time, though it would seem not as powerful as the Emporer in TOR (nor for that matter Nihilus who can apparently kill entire Jedi Enclave's just by breathing on them).

 

Revan's strength was being a great force user and tactician' date='[/quote']

 

This still does not justifies the position you took for Revan in your message. I can argue that Revan was indeed a brilliant tactician but he was not afraid of facing his enemies head-on, if he had to. That is what he did against Mandalore the Ultimate, Yusanis, Juhani, Darth Bandon, Bastilla Shan (Dark), and Darth Malak.

 

See, here's you reading **** into what I said. I didn't say Revan was affraid of the Emporer, but that I just don't think Revan would of gone to face the Emporer. How wise is it to face an enemy your going to loose to? Especially if your the Galaxy's only hope of stopping said individual?

 

Nor did I say that Revan was scared of the Exile; but Revan portrayed certainly in K2 is a master technician who used, Droid Assassin's and special teams (Atton) to take out (Jedi) targets.

 

No, I am not just another Revan fanboy. I do understand the character of Revan a lot better then you do.

 

You know this sentence proves my point. I mean seriously how am I going to know *your* Revan better than you? Your doing the classic thing of taking your Revan and projecting it onto Revan and of course your Revan is better than anyone else...

 

Also which particular Revan are we talking about? Revan before he/she fell? Revan as a Sith Lord? Revan with amnesia? Revan having found out who he/she is? Revan as lightside or darkside?

 

Lets go over game facts stated;

 

Revan is a great leader, and a very powerful force user; commander of the (1/3) Republic fleet, then a Sith Lord. Who then gets blown up by his/her apprentice and ends up with amnesia and with the Jedi Council.

 

The Exile is a good leader too (but not as a good as Revan), who has a special ability to form connections with others.

 

Revan defeats 1 Sith Lord and his (two) apprentice(s) in duels.

 

The Exile defeats 3 "main" Sith Lords; plus the other Sith Lords, Sith Assassin's and Sith Marauder's encountered on Malachor 5 (which the Exile does on his/her own, where as Revan on the Star Forge has help).

 

Based on the above, who's the better duellist? Especially considering the Exile is the only individual who could of beaten Nihilus due to the whole force black whole thing. It seems logical to me, to think the Exile the better duelist, but that Revan is more powerful over all.

 

If you like, think of a General in the Army and a Special Forces troop, in a 1-1 fight the Special Forces trooper would win. However the General is both more important and overall more powerful the the Special Forces trooper.

 

Revan however in TSL is continually portrayed as being a Master tactition, and even manipulates and uses the Exile as a weapon against the council.

 

Also, what is this?

 

"Now if they (Revan and the Exile) fought one on one, I think the Exile would win, however it would never get to that point as Revan would set a trap and use others to kill the Exile."

 

My opinion, but apparently it's upset your Revan was a total bad ass and is great at everything radar. Revan is portrayed as a major manipulator in TSL, I really fail to see how the above is a bad thing, or how it's "unfair" to Revan. It takes two characters who are portrayed in each KotOR game and gives my estimation of their different abilities.

 

This dialogue however is pointless, and I see no point in continuing it, given there's no chance of persuading you how this isn't one big anti-Revan conspiracy.

 

[/End j7 nerd rage]

[adamqd]

I'll cut/paste what I wrote on the tOR forums:

The behavior of some fans in situations like this is disgusting, I'm embarrassed to include myself in this fandom sometimes. I'm guessing most people are here because they enjoyed KotOR, Mass Effect or one of the many other amazing Stories Drew penned or collaborated on? yet your quick to flame based on an uninformed summery from an out of context chapter.

 

Lets wait and read the whole book shall we?

 

And regarding the use of KotOR II characters... Bioware told Lucasarts to use Obsidian for the sequel, as they were busy doing other games. Bioware doesn't own Revan, the same way Obsidian doesn't own the exile, thats not how the license works. Bioware are dealing with the Old Republic story, therefore all important characters and events surrounding this time-line/era are under the banner of this story.

Like Drew said on his site, Obsidian didn't ask his permission to use Canderous and HK-47, he isn't asking their permission to use the Exile... not.how.it.works.

[Darth Avlectus]

Yeah. I'm going to reserve my judgment for myself.

 

So far as fanboyism, I realized how stupid it was when I heard superman fans calling silver surfer a

faggot

because he was "just simply made up so Stan Lee would feel better about himself" because apparently nobody is supposed to be stronger, faster, smarter, or in any way shape or form better than superman. Nevermind Marvel and DC set aside their differences to make a crossover comic for their fans' entertainment.

 

Or how inner brand rivalries are intolerable. Case in point: Thor fans have a bitch-fit because hulk can (but doesn't always) kick his ass, or magneto being a fair and just mutant is able to take the hammer away from thor and wield it against him. (I know I left some things out, but basically this is the way it happened!)

 

If it wasn't all so damn pathetic I'd be laughingly amused.

 

Or Marvel vs Capcom: I just so happen to think Captain Commando would beat the living **** out of war machine and/or gambit from x-men because he is practically a fusion of the two. The programmers disagreed and made them "harder" for the captain commando character to beat.

 

The point is: we're all just a little bit biased.

 

Personally, I try to be more real about it. The way I have both Revan and Exile are expert physical combatants. So sue me. And I acknowledge they have weaknesses to other characters, too.

 

The fact that DK supposedly speaks of the Exile being disturbed by the Sith Emperor's presence in a manner similar to what TSL players will remember from the game, to me, says he's giving a nod. Hell, if you read the Bane novels, you will even see some slight nods to the little things of TSL that KOTOR 1 didn't have. Designations among sith, lightsaber forms, acknowledging that although Bane was powerful, he was not without limitations. Previous sith lords were far more powerful than Bane is--the difference is that Bane knew secrecy was a weapon whereas his overt predecessors did not.

 

Besides, how do we know the Sith Emperor has "the exact same power" as nihilus? We don't. It sounds like the Sith Emperor may be similar, but has a far better control over it. Sustainable, whereas Nihilus' ways were not. At least that's what I gather from Blood of the Empire.

[Sir Vougalot]

These things tend to stem from fans building up in their heads these grandiose theories as to what direction the story will take itself, and are sorely disappointed when it doesn't match their expectations.

[S_W_LeGenD]

Seriously re-read what you wrote?

Let us re-visit your opening of the responses to me:

 

Thanks for your input, though it's my time to waste serving no purpose, and last time I checked I was free to do with my time what I like. Though apart from anything else, I thought it good for Drew to know that not everyone who disagreed with the novel hated or felt the need to flame him.

 

I'm also sorry I hadn't realised two adults weren't allowed to have a conversation/send each other emails even if "it's pointless" (which for point of fact most of our correspondence with other human beings is, for example what purpose did this reply serve? Or my reply back serve? You think I'm going to change my mind after a few ad hominems from you?)

 

This sarcastic barrage on me was not needed.

 

Here is my full comment:

 

Seriously, your email to Drew would have served no purpose. The book is on the verge of release. And judging by the spoilers, I believe that that Drew has been disrespectful to both Revan and Exile. However, we can only pass final judgment after reading the Novel.

 

My intended point was that you will waste your time by sharing your perceptions of your favorite characters with Drew. He may not agree with your perceptions or even parts of them.

 

Drew has already stated this in his website:

 

Disclaimer: DO NOT send me any story ideas, suggestions for a new book, character, game, etc. I will not look at them and will delete the e-mail UNREAD.

 

I just wanted to simply caution you on Drew.

 

Regarding how Drew chose to advance the stories of Revan and Exile; there is nothing we can do about it. There can be two outcomes; fans may or may not like his work. Our inputs will serve no (useful) purpose. Our inputs could have been useful when Drew was writing the Novel. However, Drew probably dislikes input from fans regarding his works as apparent from his disclaimer.

 

If your objective was feedback only; fine. However, useless in my opinion. But you seem to have taken offence with my opening comments which was uncalled for. Still we can leave this now and move on.

 

Seriously? At any point did I say all Revan fans are ego-centric fools? I made the claim that people who think Revan is the strongest force user ever are; because essentially they are Revan, and as they are Revan they give a number of different attributes to Revan which make him unbeatable.

 

Stop applying your own generalisations of what I said to every Revan fan.

I understand your point but I still believe that this comment was unneeded. You can have disagreements with opinions of some Revan fans. However, this does not justifies your insulting remarks for them.

 

Some fans of Exile overhype her a lot too. They think that because she stopped the Sith Triumvirate, she is unstoppable too and they percieve her to be more powerful then Revan. Your own responses affirm my point. See below. Still this is not an excuse to be used by any Revan fan to belittle them. Every person is entitled to his/her opinion. But we can separate opinions from facts. This is the primary objective of any debate.

 

Keep in mind that Revan has much bigger fanbase among many Star Wars characters. You might be happy with how Revan is depicted in the novel but same cannot be true for so many Revan fans. All fans of Revan have high expectations from Drew. However, we may be disappointed.

 

So because something is going to be released feedback shouldn't be given?

Go ahead. No one is stopping you. However, feedback would make sense after reading the novel. This is what Drew will also say.

 

And keep in mind that Exile will be judged by how Drew advanced her story in his work. And not by your feedback. Same goes for Revan.

 

Why? I shared it in this thread to share something I'd send and would let anyone know if I received a reply. Why should I be fair in my message? Although actually I think most people would agree that my message was fair, though essentially your dislike of it seems to come from the facts that;

 

a) Your main and biggest gripe; That I think the Exile could beat Revan one on one.

b) I dislike people who think Revan can kill everything ever.

c) Some perceived slight on Revan's power.

Your response is not fair to Revan fanbase as a whole. You do not speak for the Revan fanbase. You even insulted those Revan fans with whom you have disagreements with. You could have been fair by leaving Revan out of your comments in the first place since you had nothing good to say about the character or its fans.

 

My biggest gripe is your message not being fair to Revan fans. You think that Exile fanbase is free from the so-called ego-centric fools?

 

Revan was one of the most powerful force users of his time, though it would seem not as powerful as the Emporer in TOR (nor for that matter Nihilus who can apparently kill entire Jedi Enclave's just by breathing on them).

I am not making any comparisons. Judging by how Drew portrayed Revan in his novel, he could have been an AVERAGE. Same goes for Exile. She ended even worse.

 

See, here's you reading **** into what I said. I didn't say Revan was affraid of the Emporer, but that I just don't think Revan would of gone to face the Emporer. How wise is it to face an enemy your going to loose to? Especially if your the Galaxy's only hope of stopping said individual?

Why would Revan have feared the Sith Emperor in the first place?

 

Revan clearly thought that he could stop this Sith Emperor. What he did not anticipated was Darth Scourge's back-stabbing. Now two questions arise from this:

 

1. Darth Scourge was the only Sith who could lead Revan to the Sith Emperor?

2. Why Revan even trusted him? Did Exile persuaded Revan in this regard?

 

We will surely find answers in the novel.

 

However, let us consider some past actions of Revan to determine his personality:

 

Revan did not feared Darth Malak regardless of following reasons:

 

1. Revan lost to Darth Malak in his duel with him on Leviathan. Revan realized that Darth Malak became more powerful during his tenure as Dark Lord of the Sith and was a dangerous foe.

2. Darth Malak could use Bastilla Shan against Revan and he actually did. Revan realized this from his interaction with her on Lehon.

3. Darth Malak was well-prepared to fight any potential adversary on the Star Forge from his point of view, and he would be much harder to defeat on the Star Forge. Revan also anticipated this.

 

But these reasons were still not enough to stop Revan from engaging Darth Malak in combat on his own. Revan took his chance.

 

My point is that Revan was brave. This was also apparent from his response to the Jedi Strike Team which was sent to arrest him on his flagship. He planned to fight them straight-on.

 

However, I accept that Revan was willing to recruit any possible help to succeed in his ambitions. Revan would have responded to a threat on the basis of what he knew about it and what kind of options he could use in his favor to succeed in his plans.

 

Nor did I say that Revan was scared of the Exile; but Revan portrayed certainly in K2 is a master technician who used, Droid Assassin's and special teams (Atton) to take out (Jedi) targets.

He used every possible means to succeed in his ambitions. This sums it all up.

 

You know this sentence proves my point. I mean seriously how am I going to know *your* Revan better than you? Your doing the classic thing of taking your Revan and projecting it onto Revan and of course your Revan is better than anyone else...

No, my perceptions are based on canonical actions of Revan. My perceptions are not based on my gameplay.

 

Also which particular Revan are we talking about? Revan before he/she fell? Revan as a Sith Lord? Revan with amnesia? Revan having found out who he/she is? Revan as lightside or darkside?

Revan as a whole.

 

Lets go over game facts stated;

 

Revan is a great leader, and a very powerful force user; commander of the (1/3) Republic fleet, then a Sith Lord. Who then gets blown up by his/her apprentice and ends up with amnesia and with the Jedi Council.

Revan was certainly a great leader and a skilled warrior. However, we do not know how good he was with the Force. Some of the characters that knew him praised him a lot and specially his capabilities. He certainly earned legendary status in the Jedi Order.

 

The Exile is a good leader too (but not as a good as Revan), who has a special ability to form connections with others.

Agreed.

 

Revan defeats 1 Sith Lord and his (two) apprentice(s) in duels.

Correction:

 

Revan defeated one Sith Lord who led an Empire with firm control and enjoyed Emperor like status in it.

 

He also defeated two of the Sith Lord's promising apprentices, several other high-profile figures, Droid armies, dangerous creatures, and many others who opposed him. In the bigger picture, he was instrumental in the downfall of a powerful and organized Sith Empire with his exploits. He fulfilled the expectations of the Jedi Order of his time where every other failed.

 

The Exile defeats 3 "main" Sith Lords; plus the other Sith Lords, Sith Assassin's and Sith Marauder's encountered on Malachor 5 (which the Exile does on his/her own, where as Revan on the Star Forge has help).

Correction:

 

Revan defeated most of his high-profile opponents on his own and this reflects positively on his skills.

 

And Exile did not defeated those 3 Sith Lords purely on the basis of her skills. The circumstances in which she found herself proved to be very useful. Explanation is below.

 

Keep in mind that there was no unity in the Sith Triumvirate, and this proved to be instrumental in its downfall. Exile exploited this weakness with help of Kriea, who was actually Darth Traya. Furthermore, Exile was a Wound in the Force and this increased her chances of survival against the most powerful opponent from the Triumvirate; Darth Nihilus. Let us focus on her engagements now:

 

The case of Darth Nihilus:

 

The Exile was actually helped by Visas and the Mandalore against her struggle against Darth Nihilus. She did not faced Nihilus alone. In addition, Visas betrayed Darth Nihilus and did not tell him that his force-sever abilities would not work on Exile and may backfire. And that is what precisely happened and he lost.

 

The case of Darth Sion:

 

If we follow the canonical path, we would notice that Sion develops soft corner for Exile. He likes her but does not admits openly. During his final engagement with Exile, he was convinced by Exile to give up and he accepted. Sion was like rotting corpse. There was no way he could have any future with Exile. He considered death to be the most logical choice.

 

The case of Darth Traya:

 

Traya, regardless of her nature, saw hope in Exile. She could use Exile for her ambitions and objectives. During her engagement with Exile, she could not use her Force-sever capabilities on her. She also could not fight like a normal Jedi or Sith because of missing hands. She relied on TK based saber dueling. And on the basis of the outcome, we know who succeeded. Maybe Traya wanted her to succeed.

 

Based on the above, who's the better duellist? Especially considering the Exile is the only individual who could of beaten Nihilus due to the whole force black whole thing. It seems logical to me, to think the Exile the better duelist, but that Revan is more powerful over all.

KOTOR II depictions were never about power. They were about exploitations. And I explained above how Exile succeeded.

 

By all accounts, Revan seems to be more skilled.

 

If you like, think of a General in the Army and a Special Forces troop, in a 1-1 fight the Special Forces trooper would win. However the General is both more important and overall more powerful the the Special Forces trooper.

Agreed. However, not applicable in context of Revan and Exile.

 

Revan however in TSL is continually portrayed as being a Master tactition, and even manipulates and uses the Exile as a weapon against the council.

I do not disagree. See the red-highlighted part above.

 

I believe that Revan was not stupid but he was brave.

 

My opinion, but apparently it's upset your Revan was a total bad ass and is great at everything radar. Revan is portrayed as a major manipulator in TSL, I really fail to see how the above is a bad thing, or how it's "unfair" to Revan. It takes two characters who are portrayed in each KotOR game and gives my estimation of their different abilities.

That was his original peronality before mind wipe. He changed after mind wipe. He was not stupid though. He fulfilled the task entrusted to him by the Jedi Order. And he executed his plans brilliantly once again.

 

But keep in mind that trust is an important factor. When you are not acting alone, you have to trust somebody and that somebody can help you succeed. This is also applicable to the Sith.

 

Betrayal can lead to downfall of even the most powerful figures in the Universe. Many cases affirm this point.

 

This dialogue however is pointless, and I see no point in continuing it, given there's no chance of persuading you how this isn't one big anti-Revan conspiracy.

 

[/End j7 nerd rage]

No, I am not like those fans. You have this habit of generalizing about things, which is not good.

[Astor]

Personally, for simplicity's sake, I'd like to say that both Revan and the Exile are both massively over-hyped and thoroughly deserving of any perceived character assassination anyone throws at them.

 

And both camps of fans need to thoroughly chill out.

[Darth Avlectus]

^^^'Kay. Can I use yer 'fridge? :-]

[DarthMuffin]

Personnally, the big issue I see with that book is that it's unnecessary. A fan backlash is pretty much inevitable when dealing with characters that were originally conceived as being customised and role-played by those same fans (even more so considering the games' focus on choices and consequences). In the same line of thought, I think that dragging along characters just for the sake of it makes some poor lore overall. In my mind, Revan's (and to a lesser extent the Exile's) stories were told in KotOR 1 and 2, and I don't think they needed (or deserved?) to have another round of their lives exposed in a book (or in SWTOR for that matter).

 

So as far as I'm concerned, I think they should have just left Revan and the Exile to their respective games and in whatever shape players liked to imagine them in their fantasies. Setting TOR hundreds of years in the future is the perfect excuse to have a clean start and avoid sensitive issues of canonicity. Focus on creating new, original characters as interesting as those of KotOR instead of relying on labyrinthine deus ex machina to deliver some fan service.

[DeathScepter]

Darth Muffin, I like how you think.

[Totenkopf]

Personnally, the big issue I see with that book is that it's unnecessary. A fan backlash is pretty much inevitable when dealing with characters that were originally conceived as being customised and role-played by those same fans (even more so considering the games' focus on choices and consequences). In the same line of thought, I think that dragging along characters just for the sake of it makes some poor lore overall. In my mind, Revan's (and to a lesser extent the Exile's) stories were told in KotOR 1 and 2, and I don't think they needed (or deserved?) to have another round of their lives exposed in a book (or in SWTOR for that matter).

 

So as far as I'm concerned, I think they should have just left Revan and the Exile to their respective games and in whatever shape players liked to imagine them in their fantasies. Setting TOR hundreds of years in the future is the perfect excuse to have a clean start and avoid sensitive issues of canonicity. Focus on creating new, original characters as interesting as those of KotOR instead of relying on labyrinthine deus ex machina to deliver some fan service.

 

Yet, it was inevitable this would happen. It may also be a way to plug the K3 hole that has many fanboys in a knot. Presumably, K3 would have covered much of the same ground as the novel will. EA/Bioware/LA has moved on into mmo territory w/TOR and probably doesn't feel like revisiting the Kotor era in a game (hence, as you point out, setting being 300 +/- yrs later). Doesn't really bother me anyway. Afterall.......it's just fiction and though Revan/Exile have already passed into canon, they will still likely remain to each of us what we made of them in our various playthroughs. Don't plan on reading it till it's in pb form anyway (unless someone I know bothers to get it in hb form). All that remains, for any who care, is to see if he messes it up or does a decent job. Still, as Lucas found out with the PT (and Gearbox w/DN Forever), heightened expectations are a bitch to overcome.