Indiana Jones 5

[Gins]

I will make a completely unrelated post to certain posts in this thread, and say that I think that most stories are nothing special when taken in isolation.

 

Video game stories often compare unfavorably to movie stories, because they're compared on the grounds of the latter. Will a shark or a lion win in a fight? Depends if it's on sea or land.

 

Just like movies adapted from games often suck, games adapted from movies often do too.

 

I would love to discuss this more, in particular related to Lucas* games, but maybe not at the expense of this Indiana Jones 5 thread.

[ThunderPeel2001]

I think it’s fair to say that Maniac Mansion was pretty light on story. And characterisation. Zak added more of both. I haven’t played Loom in a long time, but it definitely put story at the forefront. Last Crusade’s adaptation changes the story structure to suit its puzzles, and misses lots of key narrative beats from the source material (Indy’s relationship with his dad, for example). As a story it’s pretty weak.
 

The Monkey Island games have great stories to support their puzzle structures, but aren’t necessarily great stories by themselves. Although they have fantastic characters and strong story beats in between the puzzles. They work fantastically as games, but I wouldn’t want to read the novelisation or watch the film without some creative reworking. 

 

I think Fate treats its story even more secondarily than Monkey Island 1 and 2… it’s lots of stand alone locations and characters. Although maybe that’s how Indy movies are… but there’s nothing amazingly memorable about the secondary characters or story moments in the game. And aside from the beginning and ending there’s no really strong story beats. 
 

I think DOTT has great characters, a story that never loses sight of the main arc, and some great set pieces that would translate well into other mediums (eg. The beauty contest). For me, in terms of storytelling, I think it surpasses MI 1 and 2 — LucasArts’s pinnacle until this point. (Although I can’t remember Loom, to be fair.)

 

Sam & Max is about as crazy and irreverent as any issue of it’s comic book. Full Throttle has a superbly strong story structure if you ask me. That and Grim Fandango could most easily be translated into other mediums. Hell, Duncan Jones already wrote a screenplay for Full Throttle. I don’t even know if he changed all that much. 
 

As I said before I think Tales had quite a strong story, too (the stuff with LeChuck still feels memorable after all these years)… although that would be picking up the key moments from all 5 episodes. 
 

That’s my take anyway. Just because an adventure game doesn’t have a strong standalone doesn’t mean it’s not a great adventure game. But it’s really fun when you have a really strong story AND it supports the puzzles, too. (You could argue that Full Throttle suffers with its puzzles because it puts them so clearly secondary to the story — indeed that’s why some LucasArts fans rag on it: it’s too short, etc., rather than appreciating that the story is  generally really tight for a game with lots of great beats).

 

 

Edited May 25, 2023 by ThunderPeel2001

[Scummbuddy]

There is the Indiana Jones Fate of Atlantis 4 comic mini series that had to adapt the story away from just STEAL ITEM USE ITEM puzzles. But I don't have them out of storage yet for me to give a better synopsis other than "it exists".

[LuigiHann]

One of the interesting things about video game stories generally and Adventure Game stories in particular, is that your human experience playing the game is a substantial part of the story. All of the exploration, the dead ends, the exhaustion of every single branch of any possible dialog tree, all part of the experience and the pacing and the richness of the narrative in your mind. If you go back and replay one and you remember how most of the puzzles go, you may breeze through it and suddenly the plot feels less impactful than you remember.

Edited May 26, 2023 by LuigiHann
wording

[Gins]

2 hours ago, LuigiHann said:

your human experience playing the game is a substantial part of the story

 

This is a big part of what I meant with my post.

 

Some experiences can best be conveyed by telling a story to somebody. If you have this kind of experience, write a book or make a movie.

 

But others have so much more impact if you get a player invested by their own actions, and then feel something that you couldn't feel in that intensity by just watching, listening or reading "someone else" do it.

 

Return to Monkey Island has impact not because we were told a good story but because we lived one, and helped shape it.

 

These experiences were made with that interactive element in mind. To just remove it without replacement and call out the "story" for being bad is like just removing the meat from a dish and conclude that vegan food sucks, or eating the meat by itself and say it's nothing special.

 

Therefore, when adapting a game like Fate of Atlantis as a movie, one would of course have to make changes, while keeping the best (of the straight forwardly adaptable) parts.

 

The beginning is already quite memorable, in particular the scene with Kerner.

 

The idea that Sophia is involved and Indy at first seeks her out to warn her and drags her into the adventure that way would work too.

 

For a movie, the Sophia path would probably work best as a baseline, and maybe it could have been done in a way that Indy, Sophia and maybe Marcus each track down some pieces of the puzzle, to avoid too much travelling.

 

I'd mostly stick to the premise (Atlantis, the lost dialog, Orichalcum powered machinery), build on the Indy/Sophia dynamic and use the locations from the game.

 

The rest would be up to change in any way that works for a movie, including adding beats where they may fit.

[Udvarnoky]

On 6/8/2021 at 7:55 AM, Laserschwert said:

Still, I can't bring myself to buy the UHD set just yet. There's GOT to be a proper boxset after Indy 5.

 

On 6/8/2021 at 8:03 AM, Udvarnoky said:

There is no guarantee of a five film set, as Paramount owns the distribution rights to the first four movies in perpetuity while Disney owns them for the fifth film and whatever unholy works they make with the brand thereafter.

 

It's theoretically possible that Disney will eventually drop a big sack of money on Paramount to get those rights (they actually had to do that in the first place just to control Indy 5), but I don't see Paramount being in any hurry to sell them.

 

On 6/8/2021 at 8:38 AM, Laserschwert said:

Oh man, you're right - I forgot about the distribution rights. Which also means, no Paramount logo transition at the start of the movie. Just as much a loss as no Fox fanfare in front of the SW sequels (if those films had any importance).

 

Now that Disney and Paramount are playing footsie with the Disney+ arrangement, I'm doubting you were wrong to hold off. ¬

[ThunderPeel2001]

14 hours ago, LuigiHann said:

One of the interesting things about video game stories generally and Adventure Game stories in particular, is that your human experience playing the game is a substantial part of the story. All of the exploration, the dead ends, the exhaustion of every single branch of any possible dialog tree, all part of the experience and the pacing and the richness of the narrative in your mind. If you go back and replay one and you remember how most of the puzzles go, you may breeze through it and suddenly the plot feels less impactful than you remember.

 

Absolutely. As Gins said, this is what I tried to allude to in my post...

 

On 5/25/2023 at 10:43 AM, ThunderPeel2001 said:

Just because an adventure game doesn’t have a strong standalone story doesn’t mean it’s not a great adventure game. But it’s really fun when you have a really strong story AND it supports the puzzles, too.

 

 

Laserschwert said...

 

26 minutes ago, Udvarnoky said:

Still, I can't bring myself to buy the UHD set just yet. There's GOT to be a proper boxset after Indy 5.

 

What's wrong with the current one? I don't have UHD/4K/HDR yet... but Indiana Jones would definitely be one of my first purchases when I do

Edited May 26, 2023 by ThunderPeel2001

[Udvarnoky]

I can confirm that the current box set is excellent, at least where the transfers are concerned (and those are, of course, the cardinal point). Though the latest masters are now I think the source used for most streaming offerings, you shouldn't settle for internet-optimized bitrate and compression if you've got the hardware to play the 4K discs. All four movies are in pretty much reference quality on that format.

 

On the extras front, they just ported the same features from previous releases, and not even every last one of them. Admittedly that's still a ton of stuff, but it's a bummer if you were hoping the deleted scenes were finally coming out the catacombs.

[Niemandswasser]

On 5/22/2023 at 11:20 AM, ThunderPeel2001 said:

50% on Rotten Tomatoes... Yeah, it's going to be disappointing

It's important to remember that a Rotten Tomatoes score isn't an objective measure of quality but a metric of prevailing critical sentiment in a given moment. No more than that.

Edited May 27, 2023 by Niemandswasser

[Vainamoinen]

I don't have another "deranged take" on this.

[Laserschwert]

Regarding extras, the pre-UHD boxset for all 4 movies definitely didn't have the KotCS extras from its second disc (don't know about the UHD box), so I kept my 2-disc Blu-ray of that.

Edited May 27, 2023 by Laserschwert

[Udvarnoky]

Yeah, SKULL was released on DVD at a time when studios spending real money on supplemental features was still a thing. All those original Laurent Bouzereau featurettes amount to a near three-hour documentary if you were to roll them all together. And look, somebody has:

 

 

[Laserschwert]

I think the Hobbit extended releases were the last big bonus feature release to a major film. I mean, I'm happy they did those hour-long making ofs for Willow, Mando, Boba Fett and Obi-Wan (did Andor get one?), but with a season's running time surpassing that of a movie, they could have done so much more.

[ThunderPeel2001]

On 5/27/2023 at 3:21 AM, Niemandswasser said:

It's important to remember that a Rotten Tomatoes score isn't an objective measure of quality but a metric of prevailing critical sentiment in a given moment. No more than that.

 

Yes... but there's no such thing as an "objective measure of quality". Prevailing critical/viewer sentiment is literally the best metric we have (and honestly my tastes are usually pretty much aligned with RT -- a few exceptions, but on the whole it's a reliable metric).

 

On 5/27/2023 at 12:14 PM, Laserschwert said:

Regarding extras, the pre-UHD boxset for all 4 movies definitely didn't have the KotCS extras from its second disc (don't know about the UHD box), so I kept my 2-disc Blu-ray of that.

 

Oh wow. That's silly! The Indy boxset came with a ton of extras, but they left out the ones from CS? 

 

I was concerned there was something on the UHD transfers that was bad, though. At least it's not that

Edited May 29, 2023 by ThunderPeel2001

[Laserschwert]

If I'm not mistaken, for the UHD they even corrected (or toned down) the excessive color tint KotCS had.

[Udvarnoky]

It's been nicely de-chlorinated, but there's no dialing out the Classic Softs and lighting scheme which bake in its aesthetic of a feature-length dream sequence.

[LuigiHann]

On 5/28/2023 at 9:09 PM, ThunderPeel2001 said:

 

Yes... but there's no such thing as an "objective measure of quality". Prevailing critical/viewer sentiment is literally the best metric we have (and honestly my tastes are usually pretty much aligned with RT -- a few exceptions, but on the whole it's a reliable metric).

 

I do think it's worth specifying that Rotten Tomatoes doesn't work like Metacritic, so a 50% RT score doesn't mean the average score was 5/10, it means that half the critics liked it. It is a good metric but some people aren't that familiar with it and might misread it.

 

That said, peeking at the actual page it looks like a lot of even the positive reviews are in the 3/5 range, so it may not be much of a distinction here.

[ThunderPeel2001]

12 hours ago, LuigiHann said:

I do think it's worth specifying that Rotten Tomatoes doesn't work like Metacritic, so a 50% RT score doesn't mean the average score was 5/10, it means that half the critics liked it. It is a good metric but some people aren't that familiar with it and might misread it.

 

I didn't realise that about MetaCritic. Thanks for making me aware of it. However it's worth noting that movie reviews aren't usually done in % so even on MC they can be interpretations... 

 

MC also weights their reviews: So some reviewers get more influence than others. Sounds controversial, but I like that... (I kind of wish Rotten Tomatoes would make their "Top Critics" score more prominent and easier to reach for this reason: I do actually think that the NYT should get more weight compared to a 13 year old with a movie blog -- call me a snob if you wish!).

 

Might need to start looking more at MC, because RT has started to become less reliable than it used to be IMO.

Edited May 30, 2023 by ThunderPeel2001

[MurraySchull]

Just finished replaying Last Crusade and Fate of Atlantis ahead of Dial of Destiny's release. Been 5-10 years since I've last played them, and still enjoyed them both for different reasons.

 

Crusade is definitely the rougher and more dated of the two in terms of interface and visuals, and even tonally it's a little all over the place as well, but in terms of having an open-ended nature, it's remarkable how many variations of puzzle solutions there are, some of which involve entire sections being able to be bypassed while other sections are made more fun with the optional alternatives. It makes the game more re-playable than it might have been to know that there are multiple ways to play it that can potentially change the game significantly. I will be honest and say that given the number of easily findable dead-ends, I found the game very difficult to play without a guide. Thankfully, Thunderpeel's Game Guide is still proving useful after all these years! Music in the game is fairly limited as in most of the older games (and mostly lifted from the movie) but it's still nice to hear in MIDI form regardless. Overall, a good game despite the technological limitations from the time. (Also, Last Crusade is easily my favourite of the Indy movies so I'm happy to have the game available as a companion piece.)

 

Fate of Atlantis in my opinion still holds up as easily one of the best of the LucasArts Adventures. Primarily, again, because of the replayability, most of which is due to the three paths, and all three are worth replaying the game for to experience them all. That being said, I don't find the names of the paths (wits, fists, team) to be completely representative of the puzzles themselves (i.e. I didn't find the wits path significantly harder than the other two, Sophia reunites with you in the other paths eventually, and in the fists path there are at least two fights which are far more preferable to skip!) But yes, the three paths is a definite standout of the game that sets it apart from a lot of the other LucasArts games.

 

The soundtrack despite being MIDI completely captures the spirit of the John Williams soundtracks and the melodies themselves are very memorable. I really enjoy the story, characters and puzzles. Despite deaths still being possible in this game, I don't *think* there are dead ends in terms of puzzle design (I could be wrong). The game honestly feels like a nice mid-point between the pre-MI1 and post-MI1 era, in which death is still possible, but you need to make an effort to make it happen, which feels perfect for an Indiana Jones adventure game, to be honest. Fate of Atlantis' only real limitation is the technology it was made with, which is fairly clear particularly now in 2023. Despite that, however, I'm actually very happy to consider FoA canon alongside the movies, which is a remarkable achievement given the difference in format and style, and says a lot about the games' merit as a work of art.

 

I very much doubt we'll ever see a remaster of these particular games (barring unofficial fan remakes) but one can dream of how the games may appear with an updated visual style and interface while keeping the gameplay intact. When the Lucas special editions/remasters got it right, they got it right. I'd have liked to have seen these games (particularly Fate of Atlantis) get another chance someday.

[ThunderPeel2001]

8 hours ago, MurraySchull said:

Thunderpeel's Game Guide is still proving useful after all these years!

 

That's great to hear. I've been threatening to redo the entire site for years -- that stupid fixed background bug, lol. I even started a proper Fate of Atlantis guide. 

 

I hate game guides for adventure games, but with Last Crusade I think a guide like mine is essential if you want to enjoy it. It's got so much fun hidden beyond the tricky action sequences.

[BaronGrackle]

Fate of Atlantis might not have the most movie-friendly format, but its final hazard is absolutely on par with an Indy film and is easily on my top 3 dialogue puzzles of all time.

 

And here's a reminder that Last Crusade started the trend of a big guy named Biff that you probably need to sabotage.
He was the first guy named Biff who loves beer but gets defeated by it; the second was the ghost who initially approaches Guybrush in SMI Part 4 (I recently learned his sprite is named Biff).

[Staple Remover]

On 6/18/2023 at 3:51 PM, ThunderPeel2001 said:

I hate game guides for adventure games, but with Last Crusade I think a guide like mine is essential if you want to enjoy it. It's got so much fun hidden beyond the tricky action sequences.

Your guide was the only way I could find my way out of Castle Brunwald. 

[MurraySchull]

Saw it yesterday. No spoilers but overall had a good time.

 

I did always have a worry leading up to the movie that this one, no matter how good it was, was inevitably going to feel “tacked on”. The first three movies were basically standalone and episodic. And the fourth, for all its faults, acted as a bookend for the series with the movies’ final scenes. And yeah, this one basically is an extension of the series without a huge amount of reason for being.

 

In terms of visual effects and tone, the film works a lot better than Crystal Skull and better captures the spirit of Indiana Jones. It feels like the natural progression from the 80’s movies if they had more advanced CGI available. From a story point of view, however, it’s another Indy movie, and even Crystal Skull did more to further the main characters and world than this one (plus I did truthfully prefer the side characters in Crystal Skull as well. I think people are quick to forget that John Hurt, Jim Broadbent, Ray Winstone, etc. were all in that movie and did excellent jobs. I feel they get lost in the bashing of everything else!)

 

Also it’s probably important to note that this is not Indiana Jones: Endgame, where every plot thread from earlier movies is paid off masterfully. It’s a movie in a series of relatively disconnected movies that just happens to be the last one. Treat it as a stand-alone movie and you’ll have a good time!

 

I’d say of the three Lucas properties Disney has adapted, this one has fared the best overall (assuming this will indeed be the only movie like they’re promising). I was honestly enjoying the Star Wars revival a lot until The Rise of Skywalker, which lets the whole thing down for me. And Willow was just a dumpster fire with the occasional good moment buried in an avalanche of awfulness, and all things considered, honestly deserves to be buried. But yeah, Indy 5… good!

[Udvarnoky]

Mojo's review:

 

https://mixnmojo.com/news/Mojo-reviews-Indiana-Jones-and-the-Dial-of-Destiny

[anothercustard]

I liked it! I loved one bit.

 

I'm probably going to settle on it's good but with a ton of caveats. I can see how opinions will be split on it.

 

I enjoy how much Indy was just absolutely done with dealing with

Spoiler

Nazis

 

My series ranking:

 

Spoiler

Last Crusade > Fate of Atlantis > Raiders >>>>> Dial of Destiny >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Skull > Temple