Return to Monkey Island 🚨GAME-WIDE🚨 Spoiler Chat

[Mintopia]

5 minutes ago, KestrelPi said:

... but if there will be more, perhaps not Ron's but other peoples, it no longer has to dance around the source material. It no longer has to tiptoe past the end of MI2, or make vague allusions while being reluctant to commit to anything that might interfere with Ron's original vision.

 

Yep, this game really opens things up for other Monkey Island games now - you can frame anything as one of Guybrush's adventures that he's telling Boybrush about and it works, the bold move is writing the story of this quest for the treasure that Elaine mentions at the end of Return - as that would be new continuity.

[Jake]

19 minutes ago, demone said:

 

@JakeWould it be too soon to start an achievements thread?

 

Go for it!

[Joe monsters]

8 hours ago, Laserschwert said:

Your English is great, but since you started your post with that, in my head I had to read it with a French accent. C'est la vie!

Thank you, and don't worry. I honestly read my own messages with a bad French accent. Oui, c'est la vie.

 

7 hours ago, Marius said:

Hello! I finished the game last night, had the classic "Huh.", and then warmed up to it. Then I went to bed. And this morning, my partner asked me about the ending, so I told her what happened. And I talked and talked, tried to explain what was going on, which I couldn't, but I kept talking in excitement, and the longer I talked the more tears where flowing. Really!? Stupid game makes me cry and I don't no why? I wasn't able to explain really what was going on, but I felt this strong warmth from this game. The letter really hit my heart. Can't even make sense of all these feelings while writing you this. And I love it.

 

I already miss the game, and I want to replay it immediately.

I feel the exact same way.. I couldn't sleep last night, and now, I'm tearing up.

 

But now that I was able to think more about it...

 

6 hours ago, Dmnkly said:

 

At this point, I think the puzzlemaster Lynchian/Terry Gilliam interpretation would be that Guybrush was an orphan who took solace in imagining pirate adventures at the Big Whoop amusement park, and everything — EVERYTHING — else is a defensive construct of his mind, including Elaine and his family. Only now he's trapped and can't cope without the fantasy, and lives life as a tripped out semi-vegetable in a late-stage Sam Lowry dreamworld. Whenever he gets a little too close to reality, things start to fray and fall apart because he just can't handle it. The choice to shut down the carnival and move on with his life ends with him looking peaceful — completely alone on the bench — because he's finally reached a level of comfort with the truth and he and his mind are all there ever was. But if he refuses that reality and turns around, he's fully embraced the fantasy, and sails off with his fictional love in his fictional piratey world.

 

I don't think that's it. But I like it 🙂

I have a similar interpretation, not as dark, though.

 

I was also thinking of Guybrush being a traumatized kid - not sure what kind of trauma, maybe he is an orphan, like you said, maybe his brother Chuckie is horrible to him, maybe his family doesn't understand him, maybe something else, it's not important.

 

The amusement park is his passion and a way for him to cop about his difficult life. The more he goes there, though, the more his passion becomes destructive, and that's what we see at the end of MI2. There is a fine line between a good passion and a passion that eats you.

 

But then, he grows up and meets Elaine - maybe at the park - gets married... Still, there is something unresolved. He really wants to go back to the park one last time to face everything, to be able to move on, and that's Return to Monkey Island for me.

 

He goes there, it's not as perfect as he would have like, he feels a bit disappointed, but still, he had a lot of fun going back to those memories, and, mostly, the love of his life is waiting for him at the end of the tunnel.

And I think this is when they both finally decide to have a kid. It's a new chapter of his life. He was finally able to move on.

 

Then, he can finally go back to the amusement park with his family, but now, he is at peace. He's not living the adventures anymore, only telling them to his kid with a smile on his face.

 

I don't know if it's a stretch. I mean, it's similar to your interpretation, I'm just keeping the family real.

 

Without getting too personal, maybe I'm putting to much of myself into it - I can see myself through this version of this story, and that's maybe why it's so emotional to me.

 

Frankly, this is why this ending is genius. All of us can see different things through it, and there is no right or wrong answer.

 

Edited September 21, 2022 by Joe monsters

[KestrelPi]

6 hours ago, Dmnkly said:

 

At this point, I think the puzzlemaster Lynchian/Terry Gilliam interpretation would be that Guybrush was an orphan who took solace in imagining pirate adventures at the Big Whoop amusement park, and everything — EVERYTHING — else is a defensive construct of his mind, including Elaine and his family. Only now he's trapped and can't cope without the fantasy, and lives life as a tripped out semi-vegetable in a late-stage Sam Lowry dreamworld. Whenever he gets a little too close to reality, things start to fray and fall apart because he just can't handle it. The choice to shut down the carnival and move on with his life ends with him looking peaceful — completely alone on the bench — because he's finally reached a level of comfort with the truth and he and his mind are all there ever was. But if he refuses that reality and turns around, he's fully embraced the fantasy, and sails off with his fictional love in his fictional piratey world.

 

I don't think that's it. But I like it 🙂

 

I don't think I could say that's it either. But. Huh. It's an awfully coherent read, isn't it?

 

It even ties up a few things that I found odd in the moment, like how he just sits there, expressionlessly, not acknowledging his son even when he sits next to him on the bench, until he says hello to him. Like he's not completely present.

 

Huh.

[Joe monsters]

I think it's fascinating how much is, supposedly, happening behind the scenes.

And, for me, that's why it feels like a Lynch movie or TV show.

Lynch is all about implying ideas, not showing them. What we see is more of an interpretation of these ideas, a metaphor.

The games show only Guybrush's point of view, so we can't see the big picture.

It like a giant puzzle without a box. We have all the pieces, but we don't really now what the puzzle looks like, so we can only guess by looking at each piece separately.

 

  

6 hours ago, Dmnkly said:

Hey, has anybody floated the idea that Boybrush isn't Guybrush's son, but rather Guybrush's troubled orphan kid self, and in passing his wisdom on to his "son," he's healing himself?

 

I'm off to bed, but... that 🙂

 

I missed this part. That's crazy! And it makes so much sense.

Edited September 21, 2022 by Joe monsters

[Colorfinger]

On 9/19/2022 at 10:27 PM, Dmnkly said:

There's a very simple, surface way to interpret the ending. There are various meta levels you could easily apply to it. There are a lot of angles from which you can approach an interpretation.

 

It seems to me that in the context of the extra note that you find in the scrapbook after completing the game (the "we're about to start developing this thing" note) this game effectively frames all Monkey Island games (including Return) as allegorical rather than literal, and is the clearest indicator to me that the entire point of Return is to cement the fact that the games are a reflection of what the authors are going through, and not meant to be thought about in any literal way whatsoever. There are funny characters along the way, funny ideas and events, but they're reflections on personal life - kind of like how The Matrix is sort of all about transhumanism, but really it's all about transsexuality and everything in the story is an allegory for the layers of disguise that society requires people to wear.

 

The ending we get to in Return is the point at which for me Ron and Dave take out a baseball bat and start hitting you over the head and saying "do you get it yet? the 'secret' doesn't matter! it's an allegory!!!" Monkey Island is then a series about the adventure of living life, not literally about pirates (or monkeys, or demonic skulls), but the challenges that you face as you grow up as a human being. So roll on the next Monkey Island game all about the challenges of retirement homes, I guess.

 

Maybe I'm completely off base, but that's what I took from it.

[Blondebeard]

What a fantastic game! I really enjoyed playing it. All of it - music, art, puzzles and story. 

 

Puzzles were easier than earlier games, but in a good way. All made sense and I never really got stuck (maybe a bit on the last one).

 

As for the art, I liked it from the beggining, but seeing it in action made me like it even more. The colours are something else. I particularly enjoyed the forest on Monkey Island. I love those ants and dragonflies silluetes. Also enjoyed the "Red&Stimpyesque" close-ups.

 

The story got me hooked from the beggining. Even the beggining because it was so different and interesting.  Not a huge fan of the ending but it can't be perfect. Also the last puzzle wasn't my favourite and I was expecting a fight with LeChuck.

 

I still can't figure out where to put it against the other MI games, but it's definitely high and it's competing with childhood memories.

 

Edited September 21, 2022 by Blondebeard

[Dmnkly]

No, I think you've got your finger on it there, Colorfinger.

 

The Lynch/Gilliam interp I put forth mostly as a half-joking exercise.

 

My actual feelings are much more along the lines of what I expressed earlier, and I think you capture here as well. The details, what's "true" and what isn't... none of that really matters. What matter is what's True, not what's true.

[KestrelPi]

I would say that it's not that the secret doesn't matter.

 

I'm personally fine with the idea that the secret is an amusement park T-Shirt prize saying 'I found the secret of Monkey Island and all it was is this stupid t-shirt' on it. That's very on-brand for both the first and second game. I'm happy to fully accept the idea that's what the secret is buuuut... I think what the game wants to tell you is that THAT isn't the good bit. The secret matters because it gives you something to wonder about, something to

 

... well, let me put it this way, the Secret isn't the only reason the mixnmojo community came together. But I wonder if these games and this series in particular would have been so 'sticky', and generated so many years of love and discussion if there hadn't always been this persistent, nagging feeling that there was something else lurking in them.

 

The neat trick ReMI does is give you the secret and then create it anew. It says: 'Sure have your t-shirt if you need a prize, and if you don't want to consider things any further than that, fine. But is that really the secret, or could it be something else? Maybe it IS something else. Maybe it's nothing. Maybe there's more to what you're seeing on screen in front of you right now. Have we told you the whole story, or are there more layers to this. What can you take at face value? ...This is fun, isn't it? See? This is the bit you like.'

[Joe monsters]

17 minutes ago, Colorfinger said:

 

It seems to me that in the context of the extra note that you find in the scrapbook after completing the game (the "we're about to start developing this thing" note) this game effectively frames all Monkey Island games (including Return) as allegorical rather than literal, and is the clearest indicator to me that the entire point of Return is to cement the fact that the games are a reflection of what the authors are going through, and not meant to be thought about in any literal way whatsoever. There are funny characters along the way, funny ideas and events, but they're reflections on personal life - kind of like how The Matrix is sort of all about transhumanism, but really it's all about transsexuality and everything in the story is an allegory for the layers of disguise that society requires people to wear.

 

The ending we get to in Return is the point at which for me Ron and Dave take out a baseball bat and start hitting you over the head and saying "do you get it yet? the 'secret' doesn't matter! it's an allegory!!!" Monkey Island is then a series about the adventure of living life, not literally about pirates (or monkeys, or demonic skulls), but the challenges that you face as you grow up as a human being. So roll on the next Monkey Island game all about the challenges of retirement homes, I guess.

 

Maybe I'm completely off base, but that's what I took from it.

I think it makes perfect sense, but it doesn’t make the literal interpretation any less valid.

This is what I love about meta endings. You can get different meanings from them depending on what level you’re reading them.

 

It can be a story about a pirate. It can be a story about an orphan lost in a fantasy world. It can be an allegory of Ron Gilbert and Dave Grossman’s work, something that makes us reflect as players – was the Secret that important, in the end? It can also just be, and we don’t need to overthink anything, just feel.

 

I absolutely love that.

Edited September 21, 2022 by Joe monsters

[Colorfinger]

16 minutes ago, Dmnkly said:

The Lynch/Gilliam interp I put forth mostly as a half-joking exercise.

 

I mean honestly the idea that Guybrush is a Sam Lowry / Brazil like figure responding to trauma with fantasy is also just *chef's kiss*. In fact the retreat back to fantasy ending kind of cements that interpretation, as well as the fact that you can...

 

Spoiler

...drown yourself repeatedly, and then Guybrush and his son both disappear from the bench.

 

Edited September 21, 2022 by Colorfinger

[Staple Remover]

I adored the ending so much. It hit home for me personally, as I was once able to walk around the sets of a large pirate-themed attraction and It felt just like that moment, where I was transported back onto Melee and the world around me came to life. 

[Dmnkly]

2 hours ago, Colorfinger said:

 

I mean honestly the idea that Guybrush is a Sam Lowry / Brazil like figure responding to trauma with fantasy is also just *chef's kiss*. In fact the retreat back to fantasy ending kind of cements that interpretation, as well as the fact that you can...

 

  Hide contents

...drown yourself repeatedly, and then Guybrush and his son both disappear from the bench.

 

 

Oh wow... DID NOT KNOW THAT.

 

I mean, I think where I fall on this is that the literal SECRET, as it were, is that there is an amusement park that actually exists and that some amount of what we're seeing is fantasy. Which, I mean, it's easy to overthink, but we've been buried in a metric crapton of "clues" pointing directly at that since the very beginning. How MUCH is fantasy is where things start to get subjective, I think. Bits of it? Some of it? Most of it? All of it? Hard to say. I don't know if Ron and Dave have very clear notions of where those lines are drawn, or if it's kind of fuzzy for them too. But while it's fun to ponder (and I intend to continue doing so!), I feel like that's of secondary interest. Like so many good stories, it isn't about what it's About. And what it's About is abundantly clear, even if what it's about isn't.

Edited September 21, 2022 by Dmnkly

[Colorfinger]

1 hour ago, Dmnkly said:

 

Oh wow... DID NOT KNOW THAT.

 

Well in that case... Here's the full scene! Just recorded it from my game (please excuse RTSS in the corner, I normally play much twitchier games..):

 

https://streamable.com/twln4a

 

3 hours ago, Staple Remover said:

I adored the ending so much. It hit home for me personally, as I was once able to walk around the sets of a large pirate-themed attraction and It felt just like that moment, where I was transported back onto Melee and the world around me came to life. 

 

You know this didn't occur to me until I read what you wrote, but by putting Guybrush into a world of flats and props, there is another meta layer to this ending. Isn't that basically what we (as players) have been doing this whole time? Guiding a character around a huge movie set (sort of) so that we can have a theme-park-like experience. Putting Guybrush directly into the theme park just adds an extra meta layer to the commentary: "Look, this is what you've been doing this whole time."

 

It's kind of reminiscent of the ending of Metal Gear Solid 2, when the Colonel tells you to shut off your Playstation, breaking the fourth wall in a very deliberate and in-universe kind of a way.

Edited September 21, 2022 by Colorfinger

[demone]

Now thinking about what Noah said, I understand exactly what he meant about people creating thesis papers around the story telling of his game. 

 

I don't think I have ever played a game where not only are there multiple endings and interpretations but they give you everything you need to make your own conclusion, with each conclusion having a good amount of evidence to support it. You want it to be all fantasy? Sure. You want it to be mostly true, but Guybrush embellished? Yup, covered. You want it to be where the secret is indeed a shirt from a con artist and salesman? No problem. Any details that don't match up can be the unreliable narrator(s) or something else. There is so much contained in the series and this game in particular. 

 

Certain things might be set in stone, but for the most part, there is so much you can do to create you own conclusion. It makes this game and series a true experience. It reframed how I view this entire series and I can't stop thinking about it. I love it and the ending more and more with each thought. 

 

There might be certain times when I play the games and say, "Actually, for this playthrough, I'll accept this conclusion as my canon." Ron, Dave and the rest of the team found such a sufficient way to accomplish so much, from the prologue right to the very end. It's absolutely brilliant. 

 

It gives you just enough of everything to form so many endings. That's the real secret in my opinion. It's all branching paths and different pockets/outcomes converging, with multiple answers based off each person. But perhaps tomorrow, I'll go with, "Nah, it was just a Tshirt" lol

 

Edited September 21, 2022 by demone

[Xantospoc]

Alright, I have played all of the game, and I have opinions:

• I will start wiith this: the Artstyle. It was a controversial change... and it's not my cup of tea. This said? I pictured the reason why Ron and Dave had picked this style and... it worked. From the beginning to the end.
• I busted in laughter when the reveal of the cliffhanger of Monkey Island 2 was treated with such a simple yet fitting hilarious joke, I was a bit miffled by how much the Amusement Park had been changed, It looked more like... in-line with the world
• ... now, here is a thing. I have never been in Guybrush X Elaine. In Secret, it was an hilarious joke and it fizzled out before Revenge. I never bought the relationship in Curse, it was awful in Escape, got incredibly cringe in Tales ... and yet, I really liked it in Return. Elaine might be at her best period, doing her own thing, yet being supportive and around Guybrush when needed. The whole 'irresistible charm' bit actually took me by surprise
• ... However, I am sad to say, I didn't like LeChuck. In the games, he was either kind of a buffoon or, in a few rare case, a complete threat. Somehow, this version doesn't quite commit to either. I also dislike the fact HE is fictional, when the presence of Chuckie implied he was 'realer' than most.I did like the way his love for Elaine was framed as completely false, though, and he had some moments he hit just right (like how he dealt with Iron Rose and kept punching anyone dumb enough to challenge him to a sword fight). Of all things, LeChuck felt the one who got shafted the most
• Missed Opportunity: Gullet should have been a zombie version of Largo LaGrande, as both fill the similar role of being small guys with huge egos who prop themselves up by hiding their softer sides and bullying those who can't fight back.
• I love the new version of Insult Swordfighting as the Chum story-telling arc. Pretty sweet and ties up to the ending
• I liked a lot the new character, they had a lot of personality and quirks, enough for me to wish for them back in other stories!
• The final Puzzle made me giggle: the very first puzzle in all the franchise, before even booting up the game fully. OF COURSE this had to be 'final boss' of the franchise. We had crossed reality!
• I never had an issue with the ending, but I love how 'compromising' this is, allowing the fans to choose what is the Secret. Personally, I see the Secret being a story, ever changing with time, audience and narrator: so this is why the Secret in 1 was 'Hell inside the Monkey Head', in 3 was 'gates of hell', in 4 was 'GIANT MONKEY GUNDAM' and so on and so forth. When the hypothetical 'Monkey Island 7: Wally Has Had Enough', there will be a new Secret of Monkey Island to find and explore. And it's sad how some people missed it and are just 'so it's just Monkey Island 2'

Right now, despite some off things, I feel like Return is my favorite Monkey Island, and I look forward to playing it a few time.

I may not have agreed to how the story was all the time, but it was the story Ron and Dave wanted to tell and to see their success all I can say is

....

BRAVO!

[Joe monsters]

16 minutes ago, Xantospoc said:

 

• I busted in laughter when the reveal of the cliffhanger of Monkey Island 2 was treated with such a simple yet fitting hilarious joke, I was a bit miffled by how much the Amusement Park had been changed, It looked more like... in-line with the world

It’s actually interesting because it starts as being similar to the one in MI2, then, when you go back, it changes to a more piratey amusement park.

[JacquesSparkyTail]

Not that this matters at all but it’s interesting to think about… curse opens with guybrush having escaped the mi2 carnival and lechuck later goes on to explain that he did in fact turn guybrush into a child. But return suggests that guybrush was never turned into a child and never found himself in the carnival after finding big whoop. That scene happened to boybrush many years later so how do guybrush and lechuck reference it in curse when it hadnt even happened yet and why did they remember it so wrong? The answer is obviously that the toybox team took creative license in order to create the best game possible but is there any way to make the continuity fit here? Everything else can now be put down to “guybrush is an unreliable narrator” so I’m pretty sure this is now the singular series plot hole. 

[BillyCheers]

2 minutes ago, JacquesSparkyTail said:

Not that this matters at all but it’s interesting to think about… curse opens with guybrush having escaped the mi2 carnival and lechuck later goes on to explain that he did in fact turn guybrush into a child. But return suggests that guybrush was never turned into a child and never found himself in the carnival after finding big whoop. That scene happened to boybrush many years later so how do guybrush and lechuck reference it in curse when it hadnt even happened yet and why did they remember it so wrong? The answer is obviously that the toybox team took creative license in order to create the best game possible but is there any way to make the continuity fit here? Everything else can now be put down to “guybrush is an unreliable narrator” so I’m pretty sure this is now the singular series plot hole. 

Hmmm, to me that doesn’t mean that the MI2 ending didn’t “happen”. It just means that in this version it plays that way. But in another telling/replay of the events it happens like in MI2 – and both are somehow true/real. … or are they? 🤓

 

I just love how everything in the games can now mean everything and nothing.

[JacquesSparkyTail]

1 minute ago, BillyCheers said:

Hmmm, to me that doesn’t mean that the MI2 ending didn’t “happen”. It just means that in this version it plays that way. But in another telling/replay of the events it happens like in MI2 – and both are somehow true/real. … or are they? 🤓

 

I just love how everything in the games can now mean everything and nothing.

I like that. It did initially irk me that the opening showed you the same events but they were now different from what we’d seen before just to make it fit the new story. I quickly got over it tbf and it soon proved to be worth it. 

[Jake]

1 hour ago, Xantospoc said:

I was a bit miffled by how much the Amusement Park had been changed, It looked more like... in-line with the world

as @Joe monsters said, it actually starts off very in line with Monkey 2:

 

and is only after the kids stop “playing” the end of Monkey 2 and start thinking about what to do next, that it changed to the less extravagant park. 

[demone]

18 minutes ago, JacquesSparkyTail said:

Not that this matters at all but it’s interesting to think about… curse opens with guybrush having escaped the mi2 carnival and lechuck later goes on to explain that he did in fact turn guybrush into a child. But return suggests that guybrush was never turned into a child and never found himself in the carnival after finding big whoop. That scene happened to boybrush many years later so how do guybrush and lechuck reference it in curse when it hadnt even happened yet and why did they remember it so wrong? The answer is obviously that the toybox team took creative license in order to create the best game possible but is there any way to make the continuity fit here? Everything else can now be put down to “guybrush is an unreliable narrator” so I’m pretty sure this is now the singular series plot hole. 

To be fair, LeChuck never states he turned Guybrush into a child. In fact, out of all the aspects he goes into extreme lengths on in Curse (Big Whoop, his transformation into a ghost, Captain Marley and his crew, the map, the carnival) the whole brother and child aspect is never brought up. There is perhaps a visual implication since LeChuck does turn Guybrush into a child at the end of his monologues, but he never actually states he did that in MI2. 

 

Out of everything, I think the "brothers" reveal was the one plot plot that Larry and Johnathan didn't want to touch with a ten-foot pole and it ended up working beautifully because Return establishes that they are not in fact brothers, so it fits perfectly why it's never brought up again. As for LeChuck turning Guybrush into a kid in MI2, I think that could still be true. Guybrush never mentions specifically which part his son and Chucky made up outside of the whole brother revelation as that becomes obvious afterwards. 

 

LeChuck hexing Guybrush can still work very well. Nothing directly disproves it or anything else established in Curse I would say. Ron specifically stated shortly after Return's reveal that they were very careful to keep Curse canon. 

Edited September 21, 2022 by demone

[RobDangerous]

To me the "less extravagant park" looked like it was the same one, just 20 years or so later, implying that this indeed happened before - in which case the original Chuckie would still be quite the mystery.
Speaking of which, Monkey 2 implied that Guybrush and LeChuck/Chuckie were the only "real" characters. In Return it's now Guybrush and Elaine (and Stan) instead. Maybe Ron swapped LeChuck and Elaine in that role because of the marriage.

[JacquesSparkyTail]

8 minutes ago, demone said:

To be fair, LeChuck never states he turned Guybrush into a child. In fact, out of all the aspects he goes into extreme lengths on (Big Whoop, his transformation into a ghost, Captain Marley and his crew, the map, the carnival) the whole brother and child aspect is never really brought up. There is perhaps a visual implication since LeChuck does turn Guybrush into a child at the end of his monologues, but he never actually states he did that in MI2. 

 

Out of everything, I think "brothers" reveals was the one plot plot that Larry and Johnathan didn't want to touch with a ten-foot pole and it ended up working beautifully because Return establishes that they are not in fact brothers. As for LeChuck turning Guybrush into a kid, I think that could still be true. Guybrush never mentions specifically which part his son and Chucky made up outside of the whole brother revelation as that becomes obvious afterwards. 

 

LeChuck hexing Guybrush can still work very well. Nothing directly disproves it I would say. 

Just for clarity, you’re saying lechuck did turn guybrush into a kid in a carnival but not the same kid or the same carnival that the mi2 ending implies? 
 

I think that works. Very minor mental gymnastics necessary and suddenly the franchise is plot hole free  

[demone]

6 minutes ago, JacquesSparkyTail said:

Just for clarity, you’re saying lechuck did turn guybrush into a kid in a carnival but not the same kid or the same carnival that the mi2 ending implies? 
 

I think that works. Very minor mental gymnastics necessary and suddenly the franchise is plot hole free  

Yeah, more or less. Perhaps it's even why Boybrush choose Big Whoop specifically to imagine there since he knew it ended at a carnival. And maybe LeChuck only "hexed" Guybrush at the end of MI2 into some weird mental state where he could be easily subdued. I think Larry and Johnathan were deliberately vague here to allow some wriggle room. 

Edited September 21, 2022 by demone