Return to Monkey Island 🚨GAME-WIDE🚨 Spoiler Chat

[Laserschwert]

1 hour ago, Jake said:

I think we just disagree here. I already said hearing that track specifically in that context was a surprisingly big high for me in the game.
 

Maybe an original track would have done the same thing, maybe it wouldn’t have - I don’t know the answer to that hypothetical - but what is actually in the game made me happy enough that it’s one of the things I used to kick off the details of Return thread 🤷‍♂️. Could something better exist? Sure maybe, probably, but since I already loved what’s there I don’t really care.
 

(My thoughts on the MI2 special edition’s Woodtick music is that it’s wonderfully done in a technical way, but is missing the warmth I experienced from the original midis, so while I appreciate and respect it, I don’t love it like some other arrangements. I wouldn’t personally call it a most perfect arrangement. Again I think we just disagree on this so it probably won’t be worth hashing out much further in this thread since 1: no minds will be changed and 2: lol it’s a conversation about the subtleties of two instances of the Woodtick themes in a return to monkey island thread 😎)

To clarify, it's all high-level complaining, as the whole musical experience in RtMI is just wonderful. And hearing another version of Woodtick is generally a good thing. Hell, I specifically praised the pause menu using a minor version of the Lookout theme in the details thread, without arguing that they could have composed a new theme for that. I don't know why I treat these two differently.

Edited September 24, 2022 by Laserschwert

[neon_git]

With so much already said that hits the nail on the head, it's hard to find something worthwhile to contribute here.

I finished the game last night and I can add my voice to the chorus of those who absolutely loved it. It's pretty much the perfect ending to Monkey Island and I can't imagine how another MI game could be made that doesn't diminish the potency of the ending (although I would love to be proved wrong). I have several minor gripes, but my only major one is that none of the solutions to puzzles made me feel smart – which is one of the main things I love about adventure games.

 

It's interesting to me how polarising the ending has turned out to be. Through the lens of my day job, I'd say that this is at least partly down to expectation management. My feeling has always been that there's an unspoken exchange between author and audience at the start of any story where the author says "if you can suspend your disbelief for these specific things, put your trust in me and invest your time in this story. In return I will reward you with a compelling narrative.", and if the rules of what I need to suspend my disbelief for change part way through I'll feel cheated because that wasn't the deal I agreed to. This is particularly bad when it happens at the end of the story after I’ve already invested my time and emotions in it. The end of Thimbleweed Park felt like a fuck you for exactly this reason, I put my trust in the game to tell me a story after it set my expectations and then it turned around and required a completely different set of expectations. I think what’s interesting about RtMI is that it somehow managed to gently change my expectations over the course of the game, without me really even noticing, to the point that ending didn’t feel like a cheat. I’m not really sure how the game pulled this off, or why it worked better for some people than others.
 

[Jake]

2 minutes ago, Laserschwert said:

I don't know why I treat these two differently.

Well, the score is fantastic, and you can’t be blamed for wanting even more of it!

[NightWalker]

22 minutes ago, Dantoine said:

• Speaking of that dial-a-pirate puzzle,  it was the only thing in the game I couldn't figure out.  I didn't cheat but I sort of had to semi-brute force my way through.  I got the spinning down but couldn't figure the date.

I couldn't figure the solution out either. Does anybody know how the puzzle works? I saw a kind of tombstone or stone with instructions (something about 4 years, steps to the right and the left)... but I cound't find the solution. As you, I tried every possible combination to solve the puzzle.

[Jake]

6 hours ago, neon_git said:

I think what’s interesting about RtMI is that it somehow managed to gently change my expectations over the course of the game, without me really even noticing, to the point that ending didn’t feel like a cheat. I’m not really sure how the game pulled this off, or why it worked better for some people than others.

I think this slow turn starts from the very very beginning even if it doesn’t seem like it. The prologue reveal of Boybrush seems like it’s one thing (I’m Guybrush as a kid in the carnival!), then you’re filled with increasing uncertainty (wait who am I? where is this? is this even the game?), then the ground comes in underneath you when you meet Guybrush (I’m guybrush’s kid playing around reliving one of his old stories). That arc is not exactly what the main game does, but it tells you immediately that it’s a game where you should brace for the unexpected, but also embrace the unexpected. Then the voodoo lady gets into it as well, including revealing her name and pointing out that maybe learning it is less fun than not knowing. Then all the meta storytelling stuff with the Chums. I think the ideas “this story is going to rattle itself apart, don’t trust it, but enjoy the ride” was reiterated enough times that I was ready to be upended by the time I reached the end of the game. I don’t think everyone was, or even if they were they resented that the game made them do that, but personally I was ready for it. In a way I wasn’t with Thimbleweed.  (Thimbleweed ending discussion below)

 

That game didn’t really scaffold where it was going until it got there, and though I liked the ending of Thimbleweed plenty, I was and still am sad that it didn’t have a more traditional ending as part of its structure. I loved its cast and by the end wanted not only to solve the murder but to see at least some of them get real closure.

 

With Return, I have seen a handful of traditional endings at this point and didn’t need more of it. Curse was extremely clean, simple, romantic. Escape was bombastic and comedic, almost a send up of itself. Tales was (intending to be) epic, cinematic, full of voodoo and lore. With Return, as the game went on and I got closer and closer to the end, I found myself not knowing what I wanted to see specifically, but hoping whatever it was would be a pressure release on all the parts of the game and story that hadn’t been retread in all the sequels, and that’s almost entirely what the focus was on. I was ready for it to get meta and bizarre, to rattle itself apart and leave me wondering what I just saw, and was really happy when it happened.

 

I don’t think, though, that I was expecting the conversation on the bench afterwards, or the little final conversation with Elaine, or the note in the scrapbook. That slowly closing epilogue was a secret earnest closer on the story that ended up exceeding and subverting my expectations. I had braced for an ending that wouldn’t be about the characters and would just be pure meta, and was so relieved when it didn’t. 

[leecrawford19]

17 minutes ago, NightWalker said:

I couldn't figure the solution out either. Does anybody know how the puzzle works? I saw a kind of tombstone or stone with instructions (something about 4 years, steps to the right and the left)... but I cound't find the solution. As you, I tried every possible combination to solve the puzzle.

The stone doors you open on the way down each have an inscription (2 half faces and a year). You dial in these as the starting positions on the wheel. You then use the stone tablet in the lava to figure out how many times to turn each dial. 

[Sadbrush]

1 hour ago, backtothemansion said:

It makes wonder if the reason Ron didn't want Guybrush and Elaine getting married is because Elaine was always intended to be Guybrush's mother in the real world. A mother picking him up from his play time in the park.

 

I hope that wasn't the case. Who calls their mom "plunder bunny"?

 

12 minutes ago, NightWalker said:

I couldn't figure the solution out either. Does anybody know how the puzzle works? I saw a kind of tombstone or stone with instructions (something about 4 years, steps to the right and the left)... but I cound't find the solution. As you, I tried every possible combination to solve the puzzle.

 

You first had to align the stones to the symbols and numbers displayed above the stairway arches, then follow the instructions by rotating 3 right, 2 left and 4 from the date. 

[Dantoine]

9 minutes ago, leecrawford19 said:

The stone doors you open on the way down each have an inscription (2 half faces and a year). You dial in these as the starting positions on the wheel. You then use the stone tablet in the lava to figure out how many times to turn each dial. 

Ah I didn't spot those half faces!

[bishopcruz]

6 hours ago, NightWalker said:

I have been thinking a while about Guybrush-Elaine relationship too... To me, the relation between them has been weird in this game too. And the character of Elaine seemed to be a little different and lack of energy and importance. But... thinking about it... Maybe it could have an interpretantion after knowing the ending.

 

In this game (even in the first one and the second), the adventures of Guybrush are happening apart from Elaine's goals. It's like Elaine is doing adult and mature things, you know, saving the Caribbean from scurvy and using important pamphlets and such things. She seems to be doing some political actions, something very real, mature and from our era. She seems (as many of you have pointed) very disconnected from Guybrush.

 

And, in the other hand, Guybrush is fighting Dead Pirate Zombies, looking for fabulous treasures and living thousands of adventures (something less real and more from an imaginary world). So that's could be the reading of the situation between Guybrush and Elaine. Maybe, in the real world, they used to go together to the park but, later, Elaine enjoyed the experience from a more mature point of view. And maybe Guybrush was the only one that really believed his own stories and got lost inside his own imagination. And that's should be why they are never together in this game for a long time, because Guybrush is in his own world and, as reflection of the real world, Elaine is with his own things and thoughts.

 

Sorry for my English in all my posts. I'm not English native either.

 

I dunno. I think that comes from what often happens when a character from a series starts acting out of character or doesn't quite live up expectations suddenly fans start filling in the gaps because something doesn't seem right and there HAS to be a reason. But often that reason is that the writers just didn't nail the character this time around. Maybe they haven't written her in 30 years, maybe they had an idea for her, but the budget ran out, maybe it really is that she's an orderly in an insane asylum looking after former flooring inspector Guybrush. It could literally be ANYTHING because we aren't given enough to work with here. Her story, like most of the story in the game goes nowhere, is at best inoffensive.

 

[madmardi]

I just did another quick playthrough trying to pick up some more trivia cards and achievements, but it's really the ending that's still on my mind...

 

I've now played through about 5 of the different ending options, and read the Mojo article to look at the rest, but I have to say I've been thinking about the ending to Return non-stop since I originally finished it. My goodness... I think it's going to take me a really long time to process all this!

 

31 minutes ago, Jake said:

I don’t think, though, that I was expecting the conversation on the bench afterwards, or the little final conversation with Elaine, or the note in the scrapbook. 

 

Besides some of the items Jake mentioned above, for me the most emotional part was turning off the lights and leaving... First time I played it I don't think it really hit me as hard as my mind was so overrun with everything, but now the more I think about it I just start feeling really... emotional.

 

I guess for me it's really about realizing that it's all over (for now) and it's back to reality. When Guybrush appears surprised to be back in the alley he makes the comment, "Oh no... not yet!" and the sadness in his voice.... just gets to me. And it's exactly how I feel.

 

Personally, life's been super busy and stressful these past few years, and hearing about Return's announcement was an unexpected oasis of excitement that I didn't ever expect... and something I didn't realize I desperately needed. I've been looking forward to this game more than any game I've ever looked forward to in my life, and even though I've been swamped with both personal and work stuff these past few months, I carved out some time this week to focus on just this - escaping from reality for a few days to go on an adventure as a loveable pirate. Unfortunately, after this weekend (that's all I could allocate) it's really back to reality for me, and all those things I've been pushing off. Sure, both Guybrush and I can always return to those old adventures (and potentially even new ones?) but that has to wait until another day... as it's closing time. <Sigh>

 

I really really loved the ending, and I think it tied together so many themes for me throughout the series, not just MI1 and MI2. If there was one reservation I had as I played Return, it was that I struggled for a while trying to piece together 'when' the story took place. And more specifically, it bothered me that there wasn't clearer references to some of the events from Escape. That being said, I loved the scrapbook and the reference to the 'cushy government jobs', and I felt they did a respectful job with Herman, and by the time I neared the end of the game I was okay with how they chose to handle past cannon. And then ending came. For me it felt like it made everything okay and wrapped all 6 chapters of the series together into one nice big bundle, allowing me to understand that these are all just separate adventures stories that are just meant to be... fun. And that's it. They allow Guybrush (and all of us) to escape from our lives as flooring inspectors, and temporarily enjoying being a pirate. And I'm okay with that. 

 

And if this is our last adventure together... I will be okay with that too.

 

Damn... I feel like I've been stabbed in the heartstrings!

[Jayel]

1 hour ago, NightWalker said:

I couldn't figure the solution out either. Does anybody know how the puzzle works? I saw a kind of tombstone or stone with instructions (something about 4 years, steps to the right and the left)... but I cound't find the solution. As you, I tried every possible combination to solve the puzzle.

 

I had to resort to hint for this puzzle. Upon reading the solution, my reaction was neither "aha why didn't I think of that" nor "I never would've thought of that", but worse - it was "I tried that already!" I might have miscounted or did in the wrong order?

 

It was perhaps my least favourite puzzle which is unfortunate because it's the very last puzzle and left the impression that it didn't quite stick the landing.

[Laserschwert]

The starting positions for that puzzle are shown above the three stone doors you had to open to progress. One of the stone rings turns only left, so you use the appropriate number of "left steps" on that, the second ring turns only right, so you use the number of "right steps" on that. The number of years is the number of times you have to press on the center button.

[Dantoine]

8 minutes ago, Jayel said:

 

I had to resort to hint for this puzzle. Upon reading the solution, my reaction was neither "aha why didn't I think of that" nor "I never would've thought of that", but worse - it was "I tried that already!" I might have miscounted or did in the wrong order?

 

It was perhaps my least favourite puzzle which is unfortunate because it's the very last puzzle and left the impression that it didn't quite stick the landing.

I think despite my frustration with not fully figuring it out (I didn't take my time with it and was eager to get to the end) thematically wise it's kind of perfect.  One final Trial to get to the secret and it's both a shrine to a bygone era of physical copyright protection methods (secure but crackable) and classic adventure gaming puzzles.

[backtothemansion]

1 hour ago, Sadbrush said:

 

I hope that wasn't the case. Who calls their mom "plunder bunny"?

 

Ew yeah i retract this theory 😂

[LowLevel]

On 9/22/2022 at 12:17 AM, JacquesSparkyTail said:

But return suggests that guybrush was never turned into a child and never found himself in the carnival after finding big whoop.

 

I didn't read it that way. To me they are two different events. The ending of MI2 is something that happened to Guybrush (maybe only in his imagination, but still it happened to him) and the beginning of RtMI is a different event that happened years later to his son: a reenactment of his father's stories. As soon as the reenactment ends, the kids stop imagining the place as Big Whoop and it becomes the real place where they are playing.

 

To me, RtMI doesn't starts where or when MI2 ends, but it starts with a scene that simply evokes that event.

[LowLevel]

On 9/22/2022 at 2:23 AM, kbtw81 said:

Terror Island: other than the three pirates from the box art of Monkey 1, were there any other Easter eggs?

 

I don't know about actual Easter eggs, but to me the entire place is a strong reference to a chapter of "On Stranger Tides". Spoiler about the book:

 

Spoiler

The deeper you go into the forest, the more the mushroom-based flora transforms into fauna, just like it happens when the protagonists search for the "Fountain of Youth" in Florida.

 

On 9/22/2022 at 2:54 AM, Leontes said:

Ron had an interview where he said that people would either be excited or infuriated by the ending. Do you folks think I'm just doomed to be the latter?

 

I am not sure why you say "doomed" as if not liking something is inherently bad. Your personal "reading" preferences are yours, they should not become a reason for others to try to convince you of something. You are not "wrong" or "out of place" in the group of people who did not like the ending.

It's just that Ron is well known for leaving the player with more questions than answers (even in recent years, see Thimbleweed Park) and that you decided to play a Gilbertian game expecting to find in it an explanation grounded on the "reality" of the story. But I am afraid that in this case "reality" does not exist and the only way to create a mirage of it is to choose your own.

 

On 9/22/2022 at 4:47 AM, Leontes said:

I just want the truth. Any truth.

 

Even mine? Then: "There is no spoon".  😉

[BillyCheers]

As for the overall soundtrack, I'm quite surprised myself at how few new tunes there are (or at least as far as I've noticed so far) - and how little that bothers me. The implementation is just so good!

I can't even count the times I've loaded a save game from LeChuck's ship just to enjoy the various orchestrations.

[demone]

I went for an hour walk today and could not stop thinking about this game. Yes, it hasn't even been a week, but it has stayed with me and most likely always will. 

 

I think, in some ways, the best way to sum up the ending to this game is that if someone simply read it on paper, verbally heard it, or watched the ending on YouTube, the entire message would be lost on them. You need to experience the full journey and context yourself to truly understand and appreciate it. Yes, even then it might not be for everyone, nor should it, but I think at the very least it can be appreciated for what it is.

 

I guess in some ways, that's why I get a little annoyed when I see some the top rated comments on YouTube for the ending are "yet another meta ending" and are clearly from people who didn't play the game, didn't give it a chance, and simply searched for the ending on YouTube. Yes, there is some meta subtext to the ending and, truthfully, the game earns it because Monkey Island is one of the first games and series to have done it right. Beyond that though, there is so much more going on to appreciate and the game also invites you to give it some thought as well. It doesn't simply dictate the ending and themes for you, it invites you to put your own spins on it. It creates an experience that is personable for each, individual person, with no one correct answer and interpretation.

 

I think that's the reason why so many of us here have had a similar experience when first experiencing the ending, myself included. Initially, I felt empty and questioned "Wait, that seriously can't be it?" Then, I kept thinking about it, I replayed the final section several more times, listened to more dialogue, opened the chest containing the secret, saw different epilogues, and I immediately appreciated and loved it. I never played a game where my reaction did a 180 in the span of a few minutes. The game and ending is absolutely brilliant and keeps giving back.

 

Monkey Island has always been great with storytelling, especially when it comes to environmental clues. A favorite example of mine is actually from Tales. That game has a line from Morgan in chapter III that she can speak a little monkey. At the time, it seemed like a simple throwaway joke, but then in the next chapter she mentions she communicated with Jacques the monkey, who informed her on the scope of LeChuck's plans. It wasn't explicitly stated in that scene, but the player could surmise that she could speak to Jacques because she spoke a little of the language. It's just a nice subtle form of storytelling that invites the player to connect the dots. Each game does it to a certain degree, but Return does this in a spades to an amazing degree. It's ingrained in almost every line of dialogue and location.

 

I initially thought that there was something truly disturbing going on beneath the surface of the series. While that can still be seen as accurate, I think the reality is the opposite; there was something truly wholesome going on just beneath the surface. A father bonding with his son and retelling tales of his life, whether they are 100% accurate, embellished, or fantasy. It's up to each, individual person to decide.
 

Edited September 24, 2022 by demone

[Garystu]

I finished the game a few hours ago and. I have SO MANY feelings and NO IDEA how to articulate them.

 

I like the ending. I don't love it. Its not a perfect ending. When are they ever? It leaves me feeling emotionally satisfied. I still have some lingering thoughts and questions, and not in a tantalising way. I had a big smile on my face when I saw the older Elaine, and I love Boybrush too. I think I laughed out loud when I learned what the secret was. I was so engrossed, I don't remember.

 

I'm neither excited or disappointed by things being left up to interpretation, because they would be no matter what. I'm not sad to learn the series has some element of fiction to it, because it was always fiction. And everyone knows what a headcanon is, in current year. I don't need the series' permission to interpret it however I want, and was already doing so. But its also not a bad thing for MI to actively show me that the door is open, either.

 

And the art was stunning! Social media jpg compression, and my personal usage of blueblocker screen display modes, really didn't do it justice. Less compressed, beautiful, animated, bright, and in game, it was gorgeous from start to finish. I thought I'd only think the art was "good" and "an interesting style" but fuck me it was so much more.

[LowLevel]

On 9/22/2022 at 3:53 PM, roots said:

Did anyone else feel the nostalgia-baiting was incredibly obnoxious and overdone in RTMI? I played the original game as a child back in the day, and still felt beaten over the head with the overt callouts.

 

Nostalgia is definitely a major theme, because the underlying message of the entire game was the passage of time and how things change for everyone (developers and players and, consequently, characters as well). The many comparisons to previous games and stories were the main narrative device used to show how this change occurred. I believe that the references to the past were simply the tool chosen to achieve this goal, not a tool chosen to "bait".

[BaronGrackle]

4 hours ago, madmardi said:

Besides some of the items Jake mentioned above, for me the most emotional part was turning off the lights and leaving...

Ah.

 

Quote

One person (generally, the main character) pauses in the doorway, takes a Long Last Look around the room, then slowly turns to follow the others. The camera will either linger on the closed door or pan slowly across the empty room.

 

 

[. . .]
 

Pretty much all of this was first done by The Mary Tyler Moore Show with its final episode in 1977.

 

[. . .]
 

Mary is the last one out, taking a final look around the office before turning off the lights.

 

 

Something something highly appropriate that Guybrush can sing her theme song while inhaling helium, in MI2.

I first saw this style on Fresh Prince of Bel-Air.

 

EDIT: I'm skimming you guys more and more closely, because the more I see about the ending(s), the more I'm thinking that I already got the full explanation in the Prologue. And the rest of the game is just hovering in that explanation from the Prologue, eventually giving us the option to react to it.

 

I mean... I saw Boybrush and Chucky imagine away a modern carnival back into pirate times, while elements of the modern carnival still existed. I'm at Carla's old house, and there's literally playground equipment in front. For the first time in the entire series, LeChuck was hanging out in a public harbor without anyone being afraid of him. There's no way any of this is the same reality as MI1. So either everything has been a series of fictional stories at a theme park etc., or else this final story is a voodoo hallucination... and you get all of that before Part 1 is over.

Edited September 24, 2022 by BaronGrackle

[Jake]

@BaronGrackle can you elaborate on this post? When people just hard link to TV Tropes without actually including their opinion or the relevance, I don’t know what to make of it. (Specifically, I think simply noticing a trope isn’t criticism, and it can also come across as condescending when someone says they like something, and another person in the community replies by simply observing that it is a trope. I don’t think that’s what you meant by it though.)
 

IMO I think moments like that, even if they’re a trope* have different value in a game when you’re a participant and not a viewer.

 

*ugh

[BaronGrackle]

4 minutes ago, Jake said:

@BaronGrackle can you elaborate on this post? When people just hard link to TV Tropes without actually including their opinion or the relevance, I don’t know what to make of it. (Specifically, I think simply noticing a trope isn’t criticism, and it can also come across as condescending when someone says they like something, and another person in the community replies by simply observing that it is a trope. I don’t think that’s what you meant by it though.)
 

IMO I think moments like that, even if they’re a trope* have different value in a game when you’re a participant and not a viewer.

 

*ugh

Sorry, I enjoy that trope.  I didn't mean to sound condescending. I'm enjoying the story bits that I have so far.

[Jake]

Thank you for clarifying, for my own sanity!! There’s a too-common trend online of people pulling a “that thing you like? my friend, bad news, it is a trope,” as if it’s some sage-like ultra-wise own, to the point that I am now basically triggered by anyone dropping a TV Tropes link without context 😬🤷‍♂️

[BaronGrackle]

33 minutes ago, Jake said:

Thank you for clarifying, for my own sanity!! There’s a too-common trend online of people pulling a “that thing you like? my friend, bad news, it is a trope,” as if it’s some sage-like ultra-wise own, to the point that I am now basically triggered by anyone dropping a TV Tropes link without context 😬🤷‍♂️

Right, right, and I am a known complainer on the character art, etc. etc. But I am enjoying the story experience. Fresh Prince of Bel-Air was where I first saw that type of scene (even though I caught Mary Tyler Moore on Nick at Nite, I never saw the finale).

 

And here's a fun thing: when I left the apartment my roomates and I shared at the end of college, we very intentionally turned off our lights that way. Because we both knew the reference in terms of Fresh Prince.

 

Whoever the "real person" of Guybrush is (or the adult version, whatever)... we know for a fact that he knows the Mary Tyler Moore Show. He was singing the theme song in 1991, during the MI2 finale.

 

So in a sense, I can think of Guybrush adult "whatever the real version is" leaving the room, and himself intentionally turning out the lights just as my roomates and I did - actions happening in real life to imitate art, everything consuming everything else, something something.

Edited September 24, 2022 by BaronGrackle