The Return of Kick (among other things)

[boinga1]

I admit: I know nothing about saber only CTF. I honestly hate it. But I want to understand your arguement.

 

You still didn't answer my question. Many have said that in JA, if you are chasing a flag carrier who is using absorb and speed lvl 3, that there is no way to catch him. That seems true. How, then, did kick allow you to catch him? That's what I don't get. You have to be very close anyway to kick a guy from BEHIND (is that even possible? JO kick from behind on a running target?), and can't you just slash at him from there in JA?

 

I understand your cliam that kick is needed to stop the carier. But I can't see how this would work.

[JaledDur]

I think a post earlier on showed what they mean -- the kick allowed someone ahead of the FC to kick him down so that he could be killed, or knocked directly off a ledge. The person was comparing kicking with saber staff kicking, and how the saber staff kicking would be ineffectual in the same situation. The post is in here somewhere.

[Jello123]

angle kick..and yes it's possible

 

The gameplay is different. That is a fact. If it isn't a fact, WHY ARE YOU BITCHING, MOANING, AND WHINING?

 

how ironic

[BigFurryWhale]

Originally posted by boinga1

I admit: I know nothing about saber only CTF. I honestly hate it. But I want to understand your arguement.

 

You still didn't answer my question. Many have said that in JA, if you are chasing a flag carrier who is using absorb and speed lvl 3, that there is no way to catch him. That seems true. How, then, did kick allow you to catch him? That's what I don't get. You have to be very close anyway to kick a guy from BEHIND (is that even possible? JO kick from behind on a running target?), and can't you just slash at him from there in JA?

 

I understand your cliam that kick is needed to stop the carier. But I can't see how this would work.

 

 

For a skilled player it is in fact possible to kick someone off a ledge with a kick, from behind. People who don't play so/ctf very well and seriously will not understand how this is possible or how it works, but I can tell you right now, there are many people (myself included) who can often kick people off ledges from behind.

 

Ok.. Step by step here is how you kick someone from behind (often off a ledge) just so you know I'm not lying.

 

First: Generally speaking you need to be using speed, UNLESS he has just passed you and you have good timing.

 

Second: You need to pull him a fairbit to slow him down enough that you can catch up to him.

 

Third: Just before you execute the kick, you must pull him.

 

Fourth: As he is absorbing the pull he is temperarily stalled, this is the moment when you need to quickly move a bit to the side of them so you have the correct angle to propel them off the cliff.

 

Five: Execute the kick.

 

As you can see, it IS possible to kick people from behind. In fact, it is very easy to simply kick them, kicking them off a ledge takes far more skill, timing, and precision. Also, in JO if you catch up to them and you are able to kick them you can pull off a PTK (pull-throw-kick) which is essentially a combo of a throw and a kick. This combo does 50 damage, and will seriously aid you in killing the fc.

 

Good day.

[FurionStormrage]

Originally posted by [div3rse.jello]

how ironic

 

Ironic how? You guys are the ones bitching, moaning, and whining that they removed your precious kick from a game "that is factually 80% JO". Since it is so "factually 80% JO", adding it back in is so easy.

 

See, I am asking that they don't change the game. You are asking that they change it and then claiming that it "would be so easy because it's 80% the same code and game as JO".

[traj]

Originally posted by FurionStormrage

Ironic how? You guys are the ones bitching, moaning, and whining that they removed your precious kick from a game "that is factually 80% JO". Since it is so "factually 80% JO", adding it back in is so easy.

 

See, I am asking that they don't change the game. You are asking that they change it and then claiming that it "would be so easy because it's 80% the same code and game as JO".

 

You are not asking them to change the game because your game mode is not flawed, ours is. It's that simple.

[Jello123]

haha go read ur post again oh man im confused..rofl

 

EDIT: yeah traj said it i get it now..haha

[FurionStormrage]

Originally posted by traj

You are not asking them to change the game because your game mode is not flawed, ours is. It's that simple.

 

You claim it's flawed but you have only played the game for a week, no? The fact that you guys can't score at all means that your gameplay (FF S/O CTF) is perfectly balanced. No one can win; you must all be equally skilled.

 

Here's a boneheaded idea for you: If you can't cap maybe you should PREVENT THE OTHER PLAYERS FROM STEALING YOUR FLAG IN THE FIRST PLACE!

[dyehead]

Boinga1,

 

As it is now, if you're chasing a capper with speed/absorb, you can basically run around near him, bump into him, slash him with blue saber mode once in a while, (while he's healing, being energized, and being healed) but you have no way to knock him down, or off of a ledge, or anything.

So basically you're rubbing up against him and he's not in any danger of dying, and there's no way to get around that.

 

The main argument has been to use guns, but that's the point, we don't like guns, hence saber only ctf... So, I'd really like to have the word gun taken out of any reference to a solution for S/O ctf, kthx.

 

As for Furion, when I have so many Americans supporting and sharing my ideals, I could hardly be embarrasing my country..

Nice try, though.

[Khier]

I still don't understand what AL's problem with optional kicks are. Whether kicks are brought back into the game via patch or not, this community will be split there is really no way of fixing that. So just how would a "premature" patch absolutely ruin the game? Because players will have to go to a different server if they don't like what's enabled there? Find another one that does complement your playing style. It wouldn't ruin anything, some servers would enable kick and some wouldn't. It's like some servers will enable force powers and some won't. That's why there are NF and FF communities, they each prefer their playing style better and so have evolved into two separate groups that are content with staying on their sides of the playing field. Well this is my opinion, anyway.

[Rumor]

Originally posted by FurionStormrage

You claim it's flawed but you have only played the game for a week, no? The fact that you guys can't score at all means that your gameplay (FF S/O CTF) is perfectly balanced. No one can win; you must all be equally skilled.

 

Here's a boneheaded idea for you: If you can't cap maybe you should PREVENT THE OTHER PLAYERS FROM STEALING YOUR FLAG IN THE FIRST PLACE!

 

so, how do we stop him? we can't kick them off ledges or rage dfa them...

 

so, oh honourable and all knowing jedi, how do we do this? tell us with your infinite wisdom

[FurionStormrage]

Originally posted by dyehead

 

As for Furion, when I have so many Americans supporting and sharing my ideals, I could hardly be embarrasing my country..

Nice try, though.

 

I wasn't trying anything other than proving that support means absolutely nothing. You may have missed the italics, but it is a commonly abused Logical Fallacy to try to show how correct you are by pointing out someone's support of you and lack thereof to the person you are supposedly rebutting. Thanks for proving the very point I was making.

[Jello123]

heh..something i just realized

 

THIS COMMUNITY IS ALREADY SPLIT

 

MAKING A PATCH WILL PUT IT BACK TOGETHER AND WE'LL NEVER VISIT THIS ************************ FORUM AGAIN

 

 

YOU DIDNT SEE THIS GAY **** HAPPENING IN JO DID U

 

THERE WERE 0 THREADS COMPLAINING ABOUT THE GAMEPLAY OF JO

 

THATS CUZ WE WERE ALL HAPPY

 

NOW STFU

[FurionStormrage]

Originally posted by Rumor

so, how do we stop him? we can't kick them off ledges or rage dfa them...

 

so, oh honourable and all knowing jedi, how do we do this? tell us with your infinite wisdom

 

Oh, wow! The so-called "professional gamers" are asking me for my "advice"! They have to GRAB your flag, don't they? Think!

[traj]

Originally posted by FurionStormrage

You claim it's flawed but you have only played the game for a week, no? The fact that you guys can't score at all means that your gameplay (FF S/O CTF) is perfectly balanced. No one can win; you must all be equally skilled.

 

Here's a boneheaded idea for you: If you can't cap maybe you should PREVENT THE OTHER PLAYERS FROM STEALING YOUR FLAG IN THE FIRST PLACE!

 

You're right, that is a boneheaded idea.

 

So if in FFA or Duel no one could ever kill each other, that would be balanced too. Doesn't sound like much of a game though. Sounds like people would play to a stalemate until someone got bored and disconnected. Oh wait, that's EXACTLY whats happening in FF/SO CTF.

 

Guess we could do away with silly things like, keeping score in a video game.

 

It's balanced yippy!!!

 

Zero - Zero!!!

 

Another tie!!!

 

We must all be equally skilled. Yeah, that's it.

[traj]

Originally posted by FurionStormrage

Oh, wow! The so-called "professional gamers" are asking me for my "advice"! They have to GRAB your flag, don't they? Think!

 

First of all, I don't know who said 'professional gamer' but I think what they meant/said was competitive gamer.

 

Secondly, I see where you're going with this. You would like us all to spam Mind Trick Energy Chain Katas on the flag pad so that the FC couldn't grab the flag.

 

That's the equivalent of getting in a boxing ring and doing the over-armed 'windmill' defense against Roy Jones Jr. Seems like a good idea, but it's not gonna work against good players.

[FurionStormrage]

Originally posted by traj

You're right, that is a boneheaded idea.

 

So if in FFA or Duel no one could ever kill each other, that would be balanced too. Doesn't sound like much of a game though. Sounds like people would play to a stalemate until someone got bored and disconnected. Oh wait, that's EXACTLY whats happening in FF/SO CTF.

 

Guess we could do away with silly things like, keeping score in a video game.

 

It's balanced yippy!!!

 

Zero - Zero!!!

 

Another tie!!!

 

We must all be equally skilled. Yeah, that's it.

 

[sarcasm]Works for me... Glad you're happy about it.[/sarcasm]

[Jello123]

haha he has admitted defeat

[FurionStormrage]

Originally posted by traj

First of all, I don't know who said 'professional gamer' but I think what they meant/said was competitive gamer.

 

And your exercise for this evening is to use the friendly Search button and find who said "professional gamer". There's quite a long post in this regard...

 

Secondly, I see where you're going with this. You would like us all to spam Mind Trick Energy Chain Katas on the flag pad so that the FC couldn't grab the flag.

 

I don't see why you feel the need to "spam" the moves to prevent someone from grabbing your flag.

 

That's the equivalent of getting in a boxing ring and doing the over-armed 'windmill' defense against Roy Jones Jr. Seems like a good idea, but it's not gonna work against good players.

 

A "professional gamer" should know what to do then.

[BloodRiot]

My last post in this thread was around page 3... at this momment in page 8... I read a few posts to check up on how things were going and, in fact...it sounded pretty much as it was when i left off.

 

Sad really.

 

Tell you what. Since I dont really have a gripe with kick being back...just hate the whinning and path begging... Will anyone just try this... set saberdamagescale up to (let's say) 5 and play the game with that. Makes the saber quite useful I tell ya that.

 

If still you think it's no good and you rather have saber back... ok i find it quite impossible but ok I wont criticise you any further and for all i care... raven can add the kick anyday.

 

Just do it and then PM me or something cuz im not sure i'll follow up this thread any further.

 

Cheers.

[Prime]

Originally posted by Spider AL

I'd be happy with it if it was only available in the CTF SABRES ONLY gametype, THEN through an option... And only then on the condition that all these fellows asked Raven specifically not to include ANY other gameplay changes AT ALL in such a patch.

Thank you for the correction, Al. Sabers only FF CTF is what I was refering to, along with the above requirements.

 

Originally posted by traj

I can see Al giggling at his desk as he types, rubbing his hands together ala Monty Burns.

Hee hee, that's how I kind of see him sometimes too. But then, I am a big fan of Mr. Burns...

 

Originally posted by traj

We're expressing our opinion on the game play in this game mode. These guys were/are the best in the game. They know what they're talking about. They understand the game mechanics and what is and isn't possible. Give them some credit.

I do give them some credit, but I don't believe that Raven is going, "Holy crap! We forgot beta testing!" I give Raven a little credit too.

 

Originally posted by traj

I wish these boards were more about finding solutions and less about winning an argument.

I absolutely agree! Part of the problem is the high-horse attitudes on both sides. Personally, when some competative players demand that changes must be made and that anyone who doesn't play that gametype at some arbitrary level shouldn't be able to voice opinions, that doesn't make the rest of us sympathetic to their cause. I know the other side isn't guilt free either, but it is hard to talk about solutions when we aren't even wanted in the debate. [/rant] That wasn't directed at you traj, just a comment in general

 

Originally posted by Comm539

Yes legally its a new game. But the fact is that JA is 80% identical in code to JK2. This mean 80% of the gameplay is identical.

Where on earth did you get this number? The JA engine is very different from the old engine. Don't be fooled into thinking that because many JO features made it into JA, that all the code was just cut and pasted. Much of that code had to be ported over (or completely rewritten) to deal with the newer engine. Believe me, as someone who writes software for a living, doing all that is not a trivial task. The reason these features are in JA is because they were put there deliberately because Raven thinks they are good ideas, not because they are leftovers.

 

If I followed the current trend, I would demand that you not comment on the JA code because you know less about that sort of thing and thus have no right to have an opinion on it

 

Originally posted by Comm539

Why are you so threatened by kicks? They're easily avoidable in non ctf scenarios.

But if running away is the anly way to escape them, then they become the most potent weapons in the game, which is what happened in S/O games in JO. For many of us, this is not desireable.

 

Originally posted by Comm539

Katas, butterflies, rollstabs are all whored. They do 4x as much damage as a kick (some are even 1 hit kills). Kicks are harder to perform than these manouvers and do less damage. Why on earth would people spam kicks when they can do an instant kill move??

But all those moves have disadvantages as well. Moves of this sort can be devastating, but you leave yourself open to attack (especially saber throws), and they are somewhat blockable. Whoring Kicks, however, do not leave you open to attack, because the saber still protects you.

 

Also, if something like rollstab is a one hit kill, why isn't something like that usable in CTF? Genuinly wondering...

 

Originally posted by Comm539

Why are you moaning over something that does 20hp damage?

Mainly because unlike any other weapon, the damage goes through shields and directly to health, and does not leave you open to a counterattack.

 

Originally posted by Comm539

How can kicking ruin a game where the most efficient way to kill someone is now to spam duel saber swings as close as you can to them?

As I explained above, the kick would become the most effective thing once again, due to the issues above, IMO. I'm not saying it would ruin everything, but it certainly would be unbalacing to many gametypes.

 

Originally posted by traj

Look, the togglable kick option is the best way to go.

If we are still talking about S/O CTF, then I would agree.

 

Originally posted by traj

If you don't, the half of the community who like faster paced games won't play. Either way you're gonna lose half the community.

Not that it is really an issue, but is it really half the community that are competative S/O CTF players?

[Jello123]

Not that it is really an issue, but is it really half the community that are competative S/O CTF players?

 

Yes. If not competitive, they're still S/O CTF players.

[thelastaod]

no, half the entire community are S/O competetive players

[Spider AL]

Nice posts Furion. 80% indeed. I'm glad you picked up on that, I might have missed the cashcow of the century.

 

82.5% of statistics are made up on the spot. By NG CTFers. heh heh...

 

Originally posted by dyehead:

 

This is NOT a new game, and you know that.

You have NO proof to back up your ludicrous assertion that JA is a mod for JO. It's not a mod, it doesn't run as a mod, it fulfils all the criteria for being a new game. Updated graphics, new weapon specs, new AI, new levels, new game modes, new sounds, new exe. And more.

 

CALLING it a mod doesn't make it a mod. I can call you THE MOON. Doesn't make you the moon. WANTING it to be a mod so that your indefensible position is justified, doesn't make it a mod. I can WANT you to be the moon, and yet, see, you are not the moon currently. Though you may be in future.

 

Originally posted by dyehead:

 

I was kicking since 1.02 in JO when you didn't have to double tap.

Hehehee that's not saying much. I got JO a day before it was released in my country, and started playing MP on that very day. I was kicking from the word go. Does that make me leet, or make my arguments any more valid? NO! I wish foolish people would stop declaring things that amount to: "I AM LEET INGAME SO MY DEBATTING PWNS JOO!!11".

 

Originally posted by dyehead:

 

Re: the insults, go figure. If you weren't out to berate every single player's ideas who differ from yours, maybe you wouldn't attract flames? By attempting to shoot down everyone else's opinions, you're not making many friends.

I see, you're saying that flaming people you don't agree with is okay. You're saying "WE H8 U COZ U DISAGREE WIF USS!!!11 SO WE FLAEM U!!11"

 

Do grow up. I don't particularly like any of you either, so far. I don't lower myself to the depths of immaturity that you do though. I'm better than that.

 

Originally posted by dyehead:

 

Your fellow countrymen even want you to be quiet, man... that's embarrasing. If I were a poster on a foreign bb and another American said, "hey shut up you're embarrasing America," I'd feel horrible.

Ah. So one person claiming to be from the UK pops up on here screaming "I HAT U SPIDAR WERE ARE MY KICKZZZ!!!" and that's meant to make me feel all ashamed, is it? One moment, you say this later:

 

Originally posted by dyehead:

 

As for Furion, when I have so many Americans supporting and sharing my ideals, I could hardly be embarrasing my country..

Oh well, I guess you're a hypocrite and a poor arguer to boot. You don't measure yourself by your own standards eh. Sad.

 

Originally posted by Side:

 

Al look man,you dont have the game,how can you tell a patch would ruin the game?

if u ever get the game someday,try playing ff duel and s/o ctf it a total mess

Umm? Even your friends know now that I have the game. I've had it for several days now. Since the morning it was released in my country, actually. Do keep up, mate.

 

Originally posted by traj:

 

I can see Al giggling at his desk as he types, rubbing his hands together ala Monty Burns.

Sigh. You'll be calling me HITL0R! next. Grow up my jung friend, you're no psychoanalyst. I'm not sitting behind my desk giggling. I'm sitting behind my desk shaking my head in genuine disgust at some of the things the people you're defending have said, and want to do.

 

Originally posted by traj:

 

You make some great arguments Al, you really do. I'd be inclined to agree with your ideas more if you weren't so smug and didn't always try to belittle everyone who dares to have an opinion opposite yours.

Actually I belittle people that flame me in a childish manner. It's happened a lot in this thread. Because I disagree with Comm and his friends, you probably think it's okay to be immature. It's not. It just shows a lack of intelligence, and a lack of logical argument to back up wild claims.

 

Originally posted by traj:

 

Maybe Raven is saying "Holy ****, these guys are right. When 2 teams know what they're doing it's a stalemate EVERY SINGLE TIME. WTF WERE WE THINKING?"

 

We're expressing our opinion on the game play in this game mode. These guys were/are the best in the game. They know what they're talking about. They understand the game mechanics and what is and isn't possible. Give them some credit.

Heh. They were the best in NG CTF, not "the game." And, they're JA newbies, like me, you and the rest of us. They want to port their old game mode into this new game, and they want to do it while affecting all other players and the community in what could very well be an adverse manner.

 

You show me someone that has asked specifically for "kicks to be restored ONLY in NG CTF, and with NO OTHER GAMEPLAY ALTERATIONS," and I'll support them. Nobody has. They ask for "KIX TO BE TOGGALABAL!!" That's half the community split off already. I'd be for FFA and duel with kicks, others would not. How would we compete with each other? How would we attain common ground? The community begins to be fragmented. Next, Raven wouldn't just reactivate kick. They'd listen to other suggestions too. What makes you think Raven, non-players, would distinguish between YOUR suggestion, and other even sillier suggestions that have been made so far? They wouldn't. We'd get 1.03 mk.2, and it'd all begin and end over again. Players would be alienated, the game would die a slow death with small cliques of diehards playing until there's nobody left to play with. That's not a competitive community, that's a bunch of friends occasionally throwing small change at each other. That's the risk. I'm not willing to have it taken. Not again. Think back. Think back NOW.

 

Originally posted by traj:

 

Half of the JO community is waiting for word on whether or not to dish out $50 to buy this game. The answer they're getting is, wait. But if the game doesn't speed up, the answer they'll be getting will be, don't waste your money.

 

Pretty simple choice for RAVEN if you ask me.

Yet another person who thinks they can threaten Raven into patching the game to match their personal image.

 

It doesn't work that way, Traj. Raven's the dev company. You'd have to threaten LA too if you really wanted things done. And since this game had plenty of buyers lining up from the moment the words "star" and "wars" were tacked on above the title, I doubt you have the leverage personally or otherwise.

 

Originally posted by traj:

 

You are not asking them to change the game because your game mode is not flawed, ours is. It's that simple.

I think that's the point, isn't it Traj? You people are asking for instant change and ignoring the damage that change could do. You just don't care. That makes your arguments even less tenable than before.

 

Originally posted by [div3rse.jello]:

 

YOU DIDNT SEE THIS GAY **** HAPPENING IN JO DID U

 

THERE WERE 0 THREADS COMPLAINING ABOUT THE GAMEPLAY OF JO

 

THATS CUZ WE WERE ALL HAPPY

 

NOW STFU

Actually you're wrong, we had many people who used all capitals popping on here complaining about the gameplay of JO. That was what caused 1.03, which ruined the game for many. That's what I'm trying to help to stop you doing.

 

Originally posted by [div3rse.jello]:

 

Yes. If not competitive, they're still S/O CTF players.

You KNOW it's 50%. It's a FACTOID.

 

Originally posted by Prime:

 

Hee hee, that's how I kind of see him sometimes too. But then, I am a big fan of Mr. Burns...

Why thank you you big metal fellow with a John Wayne impersonator inside.

 

Anyway, Mr. Burns is the most successful character in the Simpsons. The person you're replying to however Prime, meant that to accuse me of being a troll. Unacceptable.

[g//anarki]

Sorry spider but JA is basically the same as JO with a slightly different saber combat system, better graphics, worse competition for saber only, 2 new gametypes, some more console commands, built in emotes and chewbacca skinz to please the RPGers and a few tweaks to guns and some differences on the editing side.

 

I find it hard to believe that it would take Raven less than a year to create a whole new game. They just took whatever was in JO and improved it (in some cases made it worse). I'm not saying this is a bad thing but in reality that's what it is. They by no means re-coded the whole thing from the bottom to the top (if they did, they made it very similar to JO).

 

Your argument about the togglable kicks not being a good idea really doesn't make sense though. If a server admin wants kicks on his own server, why not? Almost every other aspect of the game can be changed with cvars anyways.

 

I agree with you about the "premature" patch thing though. I don't want Raven to jump the gun and patch right away. I'd rather have them patch all the problems that have been seen within a month or so after release in one shot.