Question About Religion

[RaV™]

The question I have about religion is this.

 

If you kill someone even with a true justified reason do you go to hell anyway? I ask this because I had talked to a friend of mine during class and I told him I wanted to get involved in some sort of SWAT/Special Forces type organization. Though he told me that if I or anyone slain someone that they would go to hell. Honestly this doesn't affect me that much for I am athiest. I am no goth or devil worshipper in any way or form. I just want to see what 'beleivers' feel about the question I have asked in this thread..If I offended someone, I mean no harm.

[Totenkopf]

Actually, I ran into something similiar when I visited my brother in the deep south a number of years ago. One of these fundamentalist type Christians (who usually talk about having a personal relationship with Jeseus) claimed that shoplifting a piece of nickle candy was grounds for going to hell. That doesn't jive with my understanding of Christianity which professes to believe in a compassionate, loving and JUST God. I believe a lot has to do with intention. If you are joining such outfits for the express purpose of killing people (ie it's like an excuse to murder--w/in the law--so to speak), that COULD possibly be grounds for damnation, but if the POSSIBILITY of killing someone were automatic grounds for damnation, then there could be no chaplains in the military, whose express purpose is to kill people and destroy things in the name of defense. The short answer would be no, at least in my book. Afterall, many cops and soldiers can go their whole careers without ever shooting at (let alone killing) "bad guys".

[The Seeker]

ooooohhhh, this is gonna turn ugly. Personally, I think matters of self defense are overlooked, at least by christians. Also fighting morally wrong situations and soldiers on the "good guys" side are exempt I think. I mean the bible is chock full of HUGE world shaping battles where one side or the other was backed by God himself. Also are the smaller assassinations and downright murder where God had given the go ahead. So, at least for christianity, I think it depends strongly on the moral justification and the heart and mindset of the killer. So, yeah, I think the SWAT team gunning down a group of murderous drug dealers get a pass outta hell.

 

And once again, this is gonna turn ugly unless the bible thumpers, devil worshipers, athiest, and neutrals can keep their spurrs from jangling.

[TK-8252]

I'm no Christian, but I don't think that any mainstream Christian would condemn someone to hell for killing in a justified situation (i.e. self-defense).

 

Where would all the soldiers in Iraq be going when they die if ALL killing is wrong?

[Negative Sun]

Christians should keep their big fat mouths shut cause they're all a bunch of hypocrits, people were slain by hundreds during the inquisition but it was all justfied because they were killing non-believers...

 

The self-defense point is a good one, if it's between me or some dumb motherf***er, I know who I'd root for!

 

And to all you Christians, what if, at the end of your lives you discover that everything you once believed in and stood for ISN'T TRUE, what you gonna do then?

I'd rather believe in nothing and be proved wrong, at least I get to live my life by my own rules and not by the rules written down by some twats two millenia ago...

[Sabretooth]

I'm agnostic and I follow my own religion. In my view, no person has a right to take another's life. Its not like you created that person, or that you forced him to live, that you are taking his life. Even if he killed someone, he should be forgiven, and punished for his act.

 

Going to heaven is not about being good all the time, but being good for humanity, and not yourself. You must look at humanity from the wider perspective - from all the various lives and people and cultures that co-exist.

 

Eventually even a SWAT force ends up being some sort of an army used by an organization to protect itself - in this case the government to protect itself from terrorists, criminals and other antisocial elements. Who judges that the police are good by doing this? God? God never commanded you to invent a cool-looking force with licensed video games and blast some criminals just because it is good.

 

God taught of loving humanity, of spreading the goodwill and in redeeming the evil. In the end, the only way you can destroy the devil, is not by using his own weapon (violence), but by using God's weapon - peace.

 

The Irony! The Irony! This is my 3,666th post!

[RC-1162]

rofl! fate sure conspires against you, Sabre

 

i sense this is a topic the mods would like to keep both eyes on.

i think its justified if you're killing in self defense, but i dont recommend it though. i'd say run like s**t if you can.

[HerbieZ]

Does it matter, im not exactly going to shoot anyone in the next few days. Hell doesnt exist anyway unless satan lives in the core.

[TSR]

Being an atheist, i hide behind the fact that i dont believe in H or H. If they do exist, i'm screwed.

[Jae Onasi]

Christians should keep their big fat mouths shut cause they're all a bunch of hypocrits, people were slain by hundreds during the inquisition but it was all justfied because they were killing non-believers...

 

_I_ didn't kill anyone during the Inquisition. Please don't blame current Christians for something that was done several hundred years ago by a small group of misguided fanatics. Yes, we've had our idiots. However, we have millions who have been involved in building and staffing hospitals to care for people, feeding poor, spearheading civil rights, getting rid of slavery, and many other positive things.

We're all going to make mistakes because we aren't perfect. If you're looking for the 'perfect Christian', or 'perfect -insert religion of choice-person,' you'll never find them. I've screwed up before and will again at some point. However, I'll also ask forgiveness from that person and try to make it right, too.

 

And to all you Christians, what if, at the end of your lives you discover that everything you once believed in and stood for ISN'T TRUE, what you gonna do then?

I'd rather believe in nothing and be proved wrong, at least I get to live my life by my own rules and not by the rules written down by some twats two millenia ago...

 

Sort of a reverse 'Pascal's wager'.

If there's no God and I'm dead, I'm not going to care at that point.

 

I have nothing to lose by believing. If there is no God, when I die, I've lived a pretty decent life trying to make changes for the better in my life and in those around me. If there is a God, then living a life in accordance with His rules helped me be a better person here on Earth and helped me reach a good afterlife.

 

I love CS Lewis and I found this in a Wiki article:

A well known example is the C.S. Lewis quote: "Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important."

 

To answer RaV's question--life is precious and when you hold someone else's life in your hands, you have a great responsibility, whether you're in law enforcement, the medical field, or other professions like that. It's not a responsibility anyone can take lightly. I think law enforcement gets a pass out of Hell myself, though I'd have to go look it up to see if there's anything in the Bible specifically addressing that. In the case of law enforcement, you are defending those who can't defend themselves from the bad guys who want to do them harm. Sometimes that requires force to protect yourself, your fellow officers, and the 'good guys' you're trying to protect. Most law enforcement interactions do not result in deaths, even with SWAT. Even those in SEALs/Special Forces/etc. prefer not to kill unless absolutely necessary--they'd rather get in and out quickly and get the mission done.

[Negative Sun]

But the "rules" written down in the Bible are either common sense or total nonsense...

Does not believing in God make me an evil person? I live my life the best I can and I don't answer to anyone or let anyone "guide me", I make my own decisions and stand by them, I have morals and ethics, and it's got nothing to do with religion, like I said, it's just common sense for me to do the right thing...

If God is so just and forgiving, will he deny me passage to Heaven because I never believed in Him? What proof has He ever given me of his existance, let alone help?

I was merely using the example of the inquisition as an example of how twisted "justice" can be...Was it right for them to kill someone because they didn't believe in their God? Is it right for anyone to decide wether another person lives or dies?

Besides self-defense, I see no other reason to take someone's life, and even in self-defense, shooting someone in the leg or shoulder is just as effective as the head or chest, and someone might still live...

[Jeff]

The question I have about religion is this.

 

If you kill someone even with a true justified reason do you go to hell anyway? I ask this because I had talked to a friend of mine during class and I told him I wanted to get involved in some sort of SWAT/Special Forces type organization. Though he told me that if I or anyone slain someone that they would go to hell. Honestly this doesn't affect me that much for I am athiest. I am no goth or devil worshipper in any way or form. I just want to see what 'beleivers' feel about the question I have asked in this thread..If I offended someone, I mean no harm.

If it's a just cause, like a "just war," meaning that there is a justified reason for going to war (for example, the Pope tried to talk Bush out of sending troops to Iraq because the war was not justified), then it's, for lack of a better term, "acceptable"...

[Negative Sun]

So if the Pope had said the War in Iraq was justified, would that have made it true?

[MTV2]

Religion is too confusing for me. And I hate when people make religion such a big deal, like how they had to photoshop all the jumpers from the World Trade Centre. Just keep religion to yourself, dont make it public.

[RC-1162]

So if the Pope had said the War in Iraq was justified, would that have made it true?

 

since when has the Pope ever supported wars? anyway, even if he did say that, every one has a different point of view, like Bush thinks of himself as a saviour of the world, but everyone else knows that he's a crazed a-hole.

[stingerhs]

But the "rules" written down in the Bible are either common sense or total nonsense...

ahh, so morals and ethics fall under the categories of both common sense and total nonsense?? anyways, keep reading...

Does not believing in God make me an evil person?

actually, yes it does. "For all have sinned and come short." the Bible doesn't leave any room for a "grey" area. either you finish short, or you believe in Christ and your sins are forgiven. its that simple.

I live my life the best I can and I don't answer to anyone or let anyone "guide me", I make my own decisions and stand by them, I have morals and ethics, and it's got nothing to do with religion, like I said, it's just common sense for me to do the right thing...

actually, you'll find that the majority of ethics in the Western culture are rooted in the teachings brought forth in the Bible. the heritage of the West, reguardless of today's standards and lack of "religion", is Christian. if you really want to judge your life through ethics and morality, or what you call "common sense", the Bible actually isn't very far off from being a solid baseline.

If God is so just and forgiving, will he deny me passage to Heaven because I never believed in Him?

that's a rather ironic question. on one hand, you want to know how forgiving and just God is, but on the other, you basically want to be absolved of having to believe in God in the first place reguardless of God's forgiveness.

I was merely using the example of the inquisition as an example of how twisted "justice" can be...Was it right for them to kill someone because they didn't believe in their God?

if you do some searching around, you'll find that a lot of modern Christians view events such as the Inquisition and the Crusades to be the result of the will of foolish and overly zealous men superceding the will of God. i personally see it as being a classic example of the wisdom of fallible man vs the wisdom of God.

Is it right for anyone to decide wether another person lives or dies?

it all depends on your morality, but as i stated earlier, you'll find that your morality is closer to Biblical standards than you might realize.

 

from someone that does hail from a more religious backround, i believe that killing another person is naturally something wrong. we can look for justification through self-defense or the prevention of greater death, but it's ultimately justification through the wisdom of men. even modern society accomodates for such acts through something called manslaughter, either voluntary or involuntary. Biblically, i'd have to say that such situations require one to repent before God for forgiveness, and then, the situation is done.

[Vaelastraz]

Let's face it, believe in religion or not, your live will definitly not be affected by "god". And what happens after life, well that depends on what you believe. Since noone has come back to tell us so far.

 

If i were you, I would not worry about what god thinks is right, but what YOU think is right. Can you kill people? When it is justified and a good thing to do?

 

I know, I would not want to kill people in my job. Self defense is something entirely different, but even there I'd prefer it to knock guys out instead of killing them.

 

If you can sleep after you've killed people, go for it.

[TSR]

"Sometimes the good thing to do is the lesser of two evils"

 

An addition to Jae's point, about defending a person who cannot defend themselves against someone wishing to do them harm. What would be the right thing to do? Let the attacker have his way and watch the person be killed? I couldnt do that, hence me having no qualms about joining the army in 2 years time.

[mimartin]

I am by no means an expert about what God's plans or expectations are for us while we are struggling though life here on earth. For that matter, none of the so called experts know God’s true intention for us either. I do not believe in religion, but I do believe in a supreme being. To me religion is just more of man’s laws based on their beliefs and their interpretations of God’s intentions and expectations for us. In my opinion, only one person can tell you if killing someone in the line of your chosen profession is wrong and that person is you. If I were to kill someone out of self defense or to protect the innocent, while it would devastate me, I believe God would forgive my sin, even if I could not. Killing is wrong, but to me the bigger sin is not protecting those that can not or will not protect themselves. So to answer your question, mentally I couldn’t handle being a solider or a police officer, but spiritually I would have no problem with it. I have watched six people die in my life (five in car crashes and my father of cancer) each affected me greatly. I can not phantom how a death would affect me if it were caused by my own hand. To me as long as the soldier or police officer are doing it for the right reasons and ask God for forgiveness from any sins they comment, God being merciful will forgive them.

[Prime]

Christians should keep their big fat mouths shut cause they're all a bunch of hypocrits

That kind of flamebait will stop right there. You have been warned.

[Torthane]

As a christian I belive that killing in self defense or with the defense of innocent life as the reason for killing will not send you to hell. Killing someone or something though any death is tragic and to be avoided (except in a few cases, mass murderers and such) will not damn you, but killing for the wrong reasons may. I also belive strongly in redemtion, the idea that even if we make horrible mistakes we can still be 'saved' (or forgiven, or whatever you belive will happen when you die). Think of Revan in KOTOR I, he was a Sith lord, and (if you played on the lightside) he made up for is evil deeds and went saved billions of lives though he had likely taken thousands himself. Anyway, sorry to drone on in such a fashion, please note that the above is just what I belive. I belive it strongly, but it is still a belief and nothing more; I won't know one way or another untill I die. As such you have avery right to disagree with me.

 

Respectfully,

 

Torthane

[RC-1162]

Being an atheist, i hide behind the fact that i dont believe in H or H. If they do exist, i'm screwed.

well, that sure explains the word "Godspeed" in your custom title

[Negative Sun]

ahh, so morals and ethics fall under the categories of both common sense and total nonsense??

Read more carefully, I said "either" not "both"

 

actually, yes it does. "For all have sinned and come short." the Bible doesn't leave any room for a "grey" area. either you finish short, or you believe in Christ and your sins are forgiven. its that simple.

That's YOUR opinion, it doesn't make it so, and if that's what Christianity stands for, then I would say it's more hypocritical than I thought...

Like I said before, what has Christ or God ever done for me to believe in them? Is it a world full of hatred and killing and war? Or a place full of backstabbers and greedy selfish people?

If I'm evil for not believing in them, what do you call everyone who does believe in them but fall in one of the categories said above? Are they better people because their sins will be forgiven? Don't make me laugh!

 

actually, you'll find that the majority of ethics in the Western culture are rooted in the teachings brought forth in the Bible. the heritage of the West, reguardless of today's standards and lack of "religion", is Christian. if you really want to judge your life through ethics and morality, or what you call "common sense", the Bible actually isn't very far off from being a solid baseline.

Please don't patronise me, I'm not a 5 year old...Do you think the world started when the Bible was written? Civilizations before that had their ethics and morals that are quite close to Christianity, again, it's common sense in ANY CIVILIZATION, whether it be Western, Eastern or other, killing someone has always been wrong, stealing something has always been wrong, etc...

If the Bible is a solid baseline, what about the Koran? Or the Torah? Are they wrong because they're not Christian?

Such narrowmindedness is what starts s*** like the inquisition and other wars...

 

that's a rather ironic question. on one hand, you want to know how forgiving and just God is, but on the other, you basically want to be absolved of having to believe in God in the first place reguardless of God's forgiveness.

I don't want to be "absolved" of anything, like I said, I don't believe in him, period. I was just wondering that, and you really haven't answered that question have you? WOULD He deny someone passage into Heaven for not believing in Him? Cause if he does, he's not so forgiving is he? And does that not make him a huge sinner, because instead of being the Samaritan, he's just someone who walks by and does nothing at all...

 

if you do some searching around, you'll find that a lot of modern Christians view events such as the Inquisition and the Crusades to be the result of the will of foolish and overly zealous men superceding the will of God. i personally see it as being a classic example of the wisdom of fallible man vs the wisdom of God.

Yet again, this so called wisdom of God is nothing but common sense...But the thing is, if God is so wise and the Bible is all you need, why do Christians need the Pope? And Bishops? And Priests?

Because that's how they feed this religion to the sheep, if you really believe in God and all that, what do you need them for? What else have they got to say? All they do is take money from the little people and build huge churches and cathedrals and make golden chalices...If they sold all that stuff they could rebuild three or four developing countries? So why don't they? Is that the Christian thing to do? No it's not, those who have power and money are afraid to lose it, even Christians...

 

t all depends on your morality, but as i stated earlier, you'll find that your morality is closer to Biblical standards than you might realize.

As I said before: don't patronise me, it's called common sense and it's been around since before Christianity...

[RaV™]

Well all I know is if I follow through with SWAT and all that good stuff, if I am given the order to eliminate a target i'll do it without hesitating. It's the job. Though it isn't like I am going to just use SWAT or anything else related to Police/Military organizational work. I'll admit to being a killer in my own way..

[Totenkopf]

Gotta admit, I don't get the hostility flung around by you, Negative Sun. Everyone is basically a hypocrite in some fashion or another. You seem to feel hostile toward people you seem to think are judging you somewhow, but have no problem labeling them as fools.

 

I think your point about the parallel between Christian principles and common sense is somewhat well founded and probably accounts for it's not having disappeared over the last 2 millenia.

 

My guess about God and the afterlife is that if you reject Him, then you have set your path in motion. However, I also wonder how one can reconcile the concepts of just and loving. If God loves us, then He knows that we're imperfect and are gonna make a boatload of mistakes (intentional or otherwise). So, is it fair to consign one to eternal damnation for a life that is but the blink of an eye (or shorter) in eternity? Would not a loving God just punish you long enough to purge your "sin" and then bring you back into the fold?

 

On the whole concept of whether it's better to believe and be wrong than to not believe and be screwed, I come down on Pascal's side. If God doesn't exist and the athiests and secularists are correct, no one will know after we're dead b/c we simply won't BE anymore. No consciousness = no clue. If God does exist........One caveat, here, though. What if God does exist but is nothing like what we suspect.........