Achilles Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Great post, Jae. I think you're absolutely right that abstinence needs to be part of a comprehensive sexual education program, but that the reality is that it cannot be the whole enchilada. I also think that you're right that people are often not prepared for the other, non-physical aspects and I think it would be great to include that as well, if it isn't already (oxytocin release and its effects on bonding behaviors, etc). If we could do all that, I think unwanted pregnancies would diminish, as would the need for the majority of abortions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuniorModder Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 Abortion is wrong, the baby is still alive. But if you ban it, then people will die because they're doing it improperly in secret. I think that people should try to look down upon abortion, and then in the future, because culture frowns on it, people will be less likely to abort. So I think, Abortion is wrong, but people should have the option to abort. JuniorModder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexrd Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 Recently here in Portugal, there has been a great discussion about abortions. Registed people will vote this February on day 11. about whether the abortion should permitted or not. So, what's your view in all of this? Before the referendum, the portuguese legislation had already an exception to raped or unhealthy women who are free to make an abortion until a certain time of pregnancy. As such, I've voted "No". Lately, the government had tried to solve problems like abortion and euthanasia by promoting abortion at any situation if it's the choice of the woman, and legalize euthanasia, even if the person is not psicologically healthy; instead of investing on: - a good sexual education program with abstinence included, - palliative cares that are lacking on this country... Of course, this is just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Web Rider Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 Abortion is wrong, the baby is still alive. But if you ban it, then people will die because they're doing it improperly in secret. I think that people should try to look down upon abortion, and then in the future, because culture frowns on it, people will be less likely to abort. So I think, Abortion is wrong, but people should have the option to abort. JuniorModder No offense, but social stigmas do little good for society other than create outcasts and force people into bad situations. Abortion isn't the problem. The problem is an overly sexually-unprotected society, a new style of parenting that obsesses over protecting your child from reality, a failing education system, and the dissolving of normal social structures of support. You will find I think, that if you teach people to be safe, and not be stupid, and provide them with ways to find support, instead of rejection and ridicule, then you will see a reduction in the numbers of abortions. You can't raise a child without the social support(not government support) of friends and family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Avlectus Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 No offense, but social stigmas do little good for society other than create outcasts and force people into bad situations. Abortion isn't the problem. The problem is an overly sexually-unprotected society, a new style of parenting that obsesses over protecting your child from reality OR not having decency of doing Jack $#@% about their kids getting off into it at an early age--overexposure when young and no guidance. OR the parents are misguided and ignore the kid altogether which is just as terrible as the other two. In all 3 cases the common denominator that makes it contributory to today's problems is a lack of parental involvement, degree of discretion to a particular family notwithstanding. , a failing education system, and the dissolving of normal social structures of support. I would concur here. Community outreach isn't what it used to be even 10 years ago. Especially when you consider that there are so many ways to "escape" reality for anybody and everybody. I find this disturbing. And yet we attempt to curtail this problem only to run into conflicts with too much government involvement and control conflicting with our rights. You will find I think, that if you teach people to be safe, and not be stupid, and provide them with ways to find support, instead of rejection and ridicule, then you will see a reduction in the numbers of abortions. You can't raise a child without the social support(not government support) of friends and family. Very good point. I think one thing that gets confused is the element of fear. Often times when a teacher is trying to impart a lesson of wariness to his/her students, reasoned opposition occurs in the charge of fear mongering. A distinction ought to be made between fear mongering, as opposed to fear of reality. Too often I don't see this distinction made. There is nothing wrong with teaching fear of reality, but it must be done in a caeful manner that ultimately gives a student a healthy respect for outcome. ...Just my opinion, I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Darkus Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 Abortion is a great band!!! jk do whatever you feel is the right thing for you! No matter what religions or politicians have to say about it! It's YOUR life not theirs.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabretooth Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 do whatever you feel is the right thing for you! No matter what religions or politicians have to say about it! It's YOUR life not theirs.... Yes well, the trouble is, these religions and politicians happen to influence lawmakers and then you can't exactly do whatever you feel is right without getting into jail. >_> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForeverNight Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 do whatever you feel is the right thing for you! No matter what religions or politicians have to say about it! It's YOUR life not theirs.... By the same token, the Baby is still alive, wouldn't that mean that it's their choice and not yours? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Darkus Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 Yes well, the trouble is, these religions and politicians happen to influence lawmakers and then you can't exactly do whatever you feel is right without getting into jail. >_> then you should move somewhere else! if lawmakers don't follow the interests of their citizens then it is what I call a hypocritic democracy! By the same token, the Baby is still alive, wouldn't that mean that it's their choice and not yours? Today 01:36 PM have you been able to make any choices until you've reached certain age? and imo, if it isn't born it isn't a person that can make any choices... + abortion is only save until a few weeks after begin of pregnancy and I wouldn't consider that a baby at that point... it's pretty similar to a tapeworm, it's inside of you and it's alive but you don't want it so it has to go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabretooth Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 then you should move somewhere else! if lawmakers don't follow the interests of their citizens then it is what I call a hypocritic democracy! Again, that is well and good, but what if the anti-abortion citizens get a majority over the pro-abortion citizens? That wouldn't be a hypocritical democracy, nor would it be particularly liberal. Democracy is rule of the majority, and does not necessarily entail liberty and freedom. Also, switching countries is neither very easy, nor the most expedient solution to any given problem (with exceptions including having a bounty set on you, or committing treason, or maybe both). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Darkus Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 good point, still I think the majority shouldn't be able to tell someone what is good for her/his body and what not it's YOUR body and you should be able to do what you want with it. I mean this is medieval crap, if everyone says you're a witch you don't automatically become one. So if everyone says God is against abortion or whatever that doesn't make them right just because they're the majority... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuniorModder Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 good point, still I think the majority shouldn't be able to tell someone what is good for her/his body and what not it's YOUR body and you should be able to do what you want with it. I mean this is medieval crap, if everyone says you're a witch you don't automatically become one. So if everyone says God is against abortion or whatever that doesn't make them right just because they're the majority... The thing is, God is not in the majority. I bet more people will have an abortion because it is a easy and lazy way of ridding oneself of discomfort, than there are people who don't get one because it is disobeying God. JuniorModder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astor Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 The thing is, God is not in the majority. I bet more people will have an abortion because it is a easy and lazy way of ridding oneself of discomfort, than there are people who don't get one because it is disobeying God. That's an unfair and gross misrepresentation of abortion. While i'm sure there are some that abort because they see a child as an inconvenience, I find it unfair to simply lable everyone who has an abortion as 'lazy'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Web Rider Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 The thing is, God is not in the majority. I bet more people will have an abortion because it is a easy and lazy way of ridding oneself of discomfort, than there are people who don't get one because it is disobeying God. JuniorModder Woah there, I think you need to take a step back if you're gonna start throwing around accusations that women who seek abortions are "lazy" and taking the "easy way out". How many children have you raised? Have you ever counseled someone before an abortion? Have you ever adopted a child? Or even offered a pregnant woman considering an abortion that you'll adopt her child? These are not generally people who go out and say "Oh look I'm pregnant, time to cut it out!". These are real people who are having serious life issues and have decided after lots of thinking that this is their best option. And to give you fair warning, the "God says so, and that's all there is to it." argument won't fly well here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jae Onasi Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 Woah there, I think you need to take a step back if you're gonna start throwing around accusations that women who seek abortions are "lazy" and taking the "easy way out".The vast majority of women seeking abortions are not looking for the easy way out, nor are they lazy. They often times have significant social or financial issues, however. How many children have you raised?2 Have you ever counseled someone before an abortion?Yes. Have you ever adopted a child?No Or even offered a pregnant woman considering an abortion that you'll adopt her child?Yes. One of my co-workers was dating a guy. She had infertility problems and never expected to get pregnant. When she found out she was, the guy walked out on her. Point Man and I knew her financial situation was very difficult already, and offered to adopt her child. Unfortunately, she declined, but she was incredibly touched by the offer. And to give you fair warning, the "God says so, and that's all there is to it." argument won't fly well here.For some, it doesn't, true. I think it would be interesting to explore WHY God said so, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urluckyday Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 Okay, I know this scenario is kinda outlandish, but I thought of it the other day and I've been wondering. What if a man is raped by a woman (it can happen), and she is impregnated? Can the man choose to have the child aborted? I know that it's not him whose going to go into labor or anything like that but some people may consider that a personal issue to have a son or daughter in the world. I think that a raped woman should have the opportunity to have an abortion, but also a raped man should be able to decide. Just something for thought... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mimartin Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 Most likely a raped man will never come forward, but under you scenario, I do think the man should be allowed that right. Rape is a crime and the women that performed the rape forfeited her right by perpetrating the crime. After all, if I steal the Hope Diamond and I’m caught, I’m not allowed to keep the diamond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ping Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 Abortion is one of the few issues where I really don't know which side to take. On one hand, it's that person's choice to have an abortion, and if a woman is raped and impregnated...Well, you get the picture. On the other hand, is it really right to take a life legally? Is it really right to take the life of someone who hasn't even been born yet? I really have mixed feelings about this, and I can never really decide if abortion is right or wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mimartin Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 I really have mixed feelings about this, and I can never really decide if abortion is right or wrong.Same here. In my opinion, the only real question that matter is when does life begin. Until that can be scientifically answered to everyone’s satisfaction, then there will always be debate, even amongst our own self. (Please don’t try to reply with life begins at conception. This question has been asked and attempted answered many times in this thread. Unless you have made a substantial scientific breakthrough in the last 10 months (The time this thread laid dormant), then you cannot possible answer this to my satisfaction.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trench Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 In my opinion, the only real question that matter is when does life begin. Think about it this way: even if the "life hasn't begun" yet, you're still preventing a person from living. Snuffing out a life that hasn't even had a chance to take place. In my opinion that qualifies as murder. Still not sure about my position with "special cases". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mimartin Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 I'm preventing a person from living when I use birth control too. So I guess I am a murderer in your eyes. Lucky me, and a lot of other people the legal system is not seen through your eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trench Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 I'm preventing a person from living when I use birth control too. So I guess I am a murderer in your eyes. Lucky me, and a lot of other people the legal system is not seen through your eyes. I never said it went that deep. I'm just talking about once the process of development has started. *grumbles incoherently to self* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Det. Bart Lasiter Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 *grumbles incoherently to self*that's your entire argument fyi e: on second thought, i like your logic. any ladies out there wanna help me save a life? these sperm cells ain't gonna last forever unless they're properly stored Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totenkopf Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 In my opinion, the only real question that matter is when does life begin... The question isn't really about when life begins so much as viability outside a womb. The only real difference between the zygote and the newborn is about 9-10 months of physical development. Even a newborn has zero chance of viability left to it's own defenses. As to the birth control argument (specifically condom), how droll. In that case it's like the difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion. You're not killing something that doesn't yet exist. Hell, with that kind of thinking, everyone who's ever played with themselves, been blown or performed deviant sex acts is probably a mass murderer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mimartin Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 Was not my logic, but saying by preventing life from taking place you could include that and a whole lot more. Even someone that happens to have an involuntary dream would be guilty, if you defined it as preventing life from taking place. 9 months seems to make a big difference to me. However, I'm done with this, all this logic has already been covered in this thread unless something new comes in, I'm done. See post 219. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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