The Third Darth Traya

[Jediphile]

Actually, my DSM Exile fell to the DS after being "betrayed" by the Jedi Order during the Mandalorian Wars and after being told numberous times that he was responsible for Peragus. The Jedi Order did not fight the Mandalorians, and criticized those that did...which made my Exile pretty upset.

 

To me that's disappointment and disagreement. The exile may thought very badly of the council, but they were consistent in how they dealt with it.

 

Jedi master: "We're not going to fight the Mandalorians, and if you join Revan's crusade, then we're going to cast out!"

 

Exile: "Well, I'm going to join Revan anyway!"

 

Jedi master: "Right. Then you're exiled from the jedi order!"

 

Exile: "OH HOW BETRAYED I AM!!!"

 

Nah, sorry - it doesn't add up for me. You'd have to be pretty crazy to insist that is betrayal, and even if you play the exile as DS, it still doesn't add up, since then it makes absolutely no sense to me that the exile would then return to the council to face judgment, as the exile indeed did.

 

I think that if there should be a Darth Traya, he should be reserved for a Dark Sided Exile.

 

Well, you have every right to your opinion, especially if I disagree with it. My DS exile was different, however, so it would have to be optional either way.

[Allronix]

Hell, if we're throwing speculation, who says Traya has to be female? I've several male candidates for the "betrayer/betrayee" position.

 

Exile would be the most logical candidate. Betraying the Jedi by going to war, s/he betrays Revan by walking away and coming back to face judgement. Taking the LS path, s/he saves the Masters, only to have them betray her/him by trying to strip away the Force (or worse).

 

 

 

Male Revan: Is there a party he DOESN'T betray sometime? He starts off by walking out of the Jedi, then betraying the Republic, then betraying the Sith faction he started. If he flips like a =/-6 card once those memories come back, who's gonna be shocked?

 

Atton Rand: Speaking of flipping like a Pazaak card...Atton started out Republic, went Sith, then abandoned the Sith. He's not so much a betrayer as a deserter, though, if he gets it in his none-too-stable head that Exile betrayed him?

 

Mical: Now, this might get really interesting. He's seen as such a goody-two-shoes (even if Exile corrupts him) that it might actually be a shock. There might be just a little feeling of being betrayed by the Jedi, after being raised by them, believing in them, and then "Sorry, kid, not enough masters." Exile could also "betray" him, either by going DS (ruining his image of a chilhood hero), or abandoning him to go chase the True Sith. Kreia also did backstab him, and he was a spy for Carth or Cede all along, so Mikey isn't as innocent as he looks...

 

Under the "They'll never go there, but it'd made a hell of a mod or AU fanfic"...

 

Carth longest shot. There's just enough weirdness in K1 to leave you wondering if the man's lit. Knowledge of betrayal? See Saul Karath. Betrayed in his heart? Check. Again, see Karath. Sith!Dustil AND either gender Revan could add to that brew. Will betray in return? Well, to many in the Republic, I'm sure that befriending Revan counts. LSF Revan adds an additional cringe factor by putting him in bed with the indirect killer of his wife. And if he ends up at the same place as Goto, concluding that he can't save the Republic while holding to its laws?

[SilentScope001]

Jedi master: "We're not going to fight the Mandalorians, and if you join Revan's crusade, then we're going to cast out!"

 

Exile: "Well, I'm going to join Revan anyway!"

 

Jedi master: "Right. Then you're exiled from the jedi order!"

 

Exile: "OH HOW BETRAYED I AM!!!"

 

Heh. I do manitan that the Exile was betrayed...after all, the Jedi Masters refused to go off to war to fight evil (especially when one consider that the goal of the Jedi is to fight off, and that made a big impression on my Exile.

 

But, of course that's my Exile, not yours.

[The Architect]

Kreia/Darth Traya: "There must always be a Darth Traya, one who holds the knowledge of betrayal, who has been betrayed in heart, and will betray in turn."

 

This sounds like Revan to me. Revan holds the knowledge of betrayal, he/she had been betrayed in heart (by Malak) and will betray in turn (canonically speaking, he/she betrays in turn, by helping the Jedi and the Republic defeat the Sith).

 

It doesn't really apply to DS Revan, but with the believable, sense making 'civil war' concept, it does apply to LS Revan, who betrays his/her allies, the Republic and the Jedi by being a DS Sith Lord in the civil war idea.

[DARTH_DANZIG]

Maybe atton could dress up in drag and become darth traya.

He had a pretty rough run with the original in the last one.

[Ctrl Alt Del]

Maybe atton could dress up in drag and become darth traya.

He had a pretty rough run with the original in the last one.

 

 

Hmmm, paying homage like that don't sounds like Atton. Especially if we're talking about Traya.

[Diego Varen]

I've been thinking that a new Traya could be the Exile and I'll describe what I think, with a canon Jedi Exile, Light Side Female. She betrayed the Jedi Order, following Revan and Malak to war and when she was exiled, I'm guessing she felt betrayed by the masters, when exiled. When she met Kreia, she tried to lure the Exile to the dark side, with her teachings. The Exile rejected all times and was betrayed by both the Jedi Masters (Who had fallen to the dark side in my opinion) and Kreia. Atris betrayed her, when she fell to the dark side. On Malachor V, the Exile tried to bring Kreia back to the light, even after everything she had done, but Kreia wouldn't return to the light side. My guess is, that after all the betrayals the Jedi Exile suffered with, she could become the next Darth Traya, but this is my opinion and you can disagree with me. I personally, think that if the Exile returns in KOTOR III, I would like her to fall to the dark side, after all she is the supposed death of the Force, unlike Revan.

 

Sorry, I don't usually make long posts like this and if I don't make sense, it was because I was tired.

[Master Kavar]

Meh. The exile was never betrayed in his heart, methinks. The council cast all those out, who followed Revan's crusade, so the exile's, well, exile is really just an affirmation of their early choice to exile them all. The exile is special there only because he was the only one to ever return and face judgment.

 

The Council never had the chance to throw any of them out of the Jedi Order; every Jedi that went to fight in the Mandalorian Wars either died or was turned to the dark side. From what I understand none of them were officially exiled from the Order, except for the Jedi Exile.

 

And anyways, my point wasn't that the Exile was betrayed by being exiled, she was betrayed because it was done under false pretenses and was lied to. She wasn't expelled from the Order because she had gone to war like they told her, but because they feared what she had become.

 

The exile was never close enough to Atris to really be betrayed in his heart by her. Atris loved the male Exile, but he didn't know it, and so never returned those feelings. And besides, even if he had, the male exile is just an option (and not even the canonical one, which is sad, if you ask me...)

 

That's a matter of opinion really; the exact nature of Atris and the Exile's relationship is left up to the player through a number of dialogue options, but regardless it's clear that they knew each other well enough, and she betrayed her by using her position in the Council, and later by using her as Sith Lord bait. Just as she had felt betrayed by the Exile's choice to go to war.

 

The exile is never given any particular reason to trust the masters in TSL, and given how Kreia treats the exile, I doubt there is any love lost there either. So no, I wouldn't call any of that "betrayal in the heart" either.

 

No reason other than they're the Exile's life-long trusted mentors? Assuming that the Exile isn't dark sided and pre-emptively kill them off, she trusted them enough that she gathered them together and was willing to help them fight the Sith, even though she was no longer a Jedi.

 

And again, assuming that the Exile isn't dark sided there has to have been some kind of trust between the Exile and Kreia. Their lives were literally tied together, and they needed to depend on each other for their survival. The Exile just couldn't have traveled with her, studied under her, fought alongside her for months without developing some kind of kinship.

 

And I don't want Revan to be Darth Traya - he already has a Sith title, one is enough as far as I'm concerned.

[Wildboar]

i really think it is bad making a character that you create a look for in one of the prior games re-enter the game as an npc.

 

you had a view of what that character was like and who they were and even defined the look and gender. i think that is the main reason that the characters of the prior story line are pretty much unavailable for interaction... with the exception of the two droids (in keeping with the sw tradition eg:c3po and r2d2) and for some reason mandalore. (and a the brief interaction with carth, where he in effect says, "if you find -->her<--..." to hell with someone who decided for all the people that played revan as a she, that revan was a he... correct me if i am wrong but i don't remember as much material when playing tsl stating that revan was a male. yea, the holocron... weee... ) to me this is due to the fact that people who have created a personal story version of what happened ... all of a sudden have that portrayed in the new story all wrong.

 

to me the traya should be someone new. it gives them more ability to do as they wish.

[Jyuanii]

Call it boring but by:

Darth Traya: "And, there must always be a Darth Traya. The galaxy needs its betrayers, especially in the times to come.

I don't believe Kreia literally means Darth Traya but is merely referring to betrayers in general, in which you'll really be spoilt for choice in K3.

[Gargoyle King]

Who could that Darth Traya be? Darth Revan?

 

Unlikely, but a very good plot twist that would be!

[Darca Lar]

There won't be another Traya persay, but there will be those who will do anything to protect their own hide. Even help the wrong people.

[Darth Tenebrous]

It seems that that quote about betrayal is the focus point of the whole series. In K1, both Revan and Bastila betrayed others. Revan betrayed Malak and the rest of the Sith, and Bastila betrayed Revan and the rest of the Jedi. In K2, Kreia and Atris both betrayed others, both the Exile. Also, it is shown that the Jedi Counsel betrayed the Exile in the past, and Kreia's apprentices betrayed her in the past also.

 

It is my theory that there will again be two betrayers, one light side and one dark side, in K3. It seems to follow the tradition that they have set up. It probably won't be your mentor, since that has already been done twice. Maybe your whole party will turn against you, and some main character who you are an enemy of, who seems to be the game's boss, becomes an ally.

[Sir Vougalot]

I don't think Kreia meant that there literally needs to be a Sith Lord named Darth Traya at all times. I think she meant that there always needs to be a betrayer figure in order for the Sith to continue on. I think that Darth Sidious was that figure at the time of the movies.

[Darth Tenebrous]

Thats what I'm saying. Anakin was a betrayer at the time also.

[Fredi]

I don’t know but I think that maybe the next Darth Traya could be Brianna (The Handmaiden).... She was betrayed by Atris , she is part of the New raising order and she cant control her emotion very well So she is my number 1 option....

 

1)Brianna

 

if is not her then

 

2) Bastila

 

Or if is not her for last I think It will be Dustil

 

He thought that he’s father betrayed him but then he "Forgave him” but then remember he did not decided to walk the path of a Jedi , he just leaved , where? We don’t know and remember he was a Sith and trained in the ways of the dark side... so he is my 3 and final option ....

[Jediphile]

I still think that the "third" Traya in K3 should be either Revan or the new pc depending on the new pc's LS/DS choice.

[Prime]

Thats what I'm saying. Anakin was a betrayer at the time also.

You could say Palpatine was also.

[Darth Tenebrous]

It is cannon that the Exile is female, which means that the Handmaiden didn't join the party. So that makes her being the 3rd Darth Traya unlikely.

 

I support Revan as a betrayer. It is easy to understand that he could have faked being a LS Jedi again to destroy Malak, and use the Republic as the means to destroy the only threat to his reign as the Dark Lord of the Sith: the True Sith. So after this becomes apparent, and he uses the PC to eliminate the True Sith's leader so that he can take the throne, the PC must stop his attack on the Republic.

 

Just my idea.

[Darca Lar]

You do realize that they're name wouldn't become Darth Traya right? That Kreia was just using a metaphor?

[Darth Tenebrous]

I think that we all get that. It is one of the most deep philisophical points in the game, and anyone who takes it at its surface value probably has the IQ of a gizka. Lol, Star Wars geek-style insult. Pwn3d!

[Masgrtgr]

It is cannon that the Exile is female, which means that the Handmaiden didn't join the party. So that makes her being the 3rd Darth Traya unlikely.

 

I seriously doubt canon is going to effect the storyline in KOTOR 3.

[Darth Tenebrous]

I find it hard to believe that the canon of what happened in the other games, which at some points were largely based off of gender (the reasons why each character did each thing, the NPCs in your party, etc.), wouldn't play a large role in K3. Each action that both Revan and the Exile took were crucial to the Republic, as stated by Kreia and G0-T0, and proven by the plot itself. Since some of these actions were gender-defined, and light side/dark side defined, the developers have to assume that one side or the other is what actually happened.

 

For example, the Exile could have left Malachor, or stayed there. Also, the Ebon Hawk could have been destroyed, or survived the events. Unless K2 is pointless in the series, these must be addressed.

 

It is possible that, if you say in conversation that the Exile was male, then one of the characters is Brianna. It is also possible that conversation choices determine the attributes and charactaristics of each NPC, and who the enemy is. But then, what becomes the canon version of K3?

 

Even if the player is allowed to choose the gender and LS/DS of the characters of KotOR 1 and 2, I still doubt that the game developers would have one of the main DS characters, and the PC's enemy, depend on these choices. It would just be extra work to program, and unnecessary when the plot could have a character that was the same no matter who the PC was be this betrayer (metephorically "Darth Traya").

 

If for no other reason, then at least so that the starwars.wikia.com article on this character doesn't need a discussion page on the complexities of canon disputes.

[Robb Stark]

I think Revan could well be a DSer (again?) by the end of K3, twisted and corrupted by his dealing with the True Sith (seeing as what they left at Malachor is what corrupted him--or at the very least put a man, hungry for knowledge and power beyond what he was being granted by the Jedi framework, over the edge--in the first place). But I'm not sure that if such were to occur that he would be a candidate for the role of "Darth Traya." He is/was Darth Revan, and his life is as much about the power he wields and how his choices affect those around him as anything else.

 

It is my belief that the role of "Darth Traya" more specifically is in reference to a sense of betrayal of the Force itself, or at the very least it's philosophical foundations as stated by he Jedi Order. That is, the fall of "Darth Traya" is in relation to the loss of faith in the Jedi's way of interpreting the Force. That applies to Kreia's decision to follow in Revan's footsteps by giving in to Malachor, spawned by the fact that all her apprentices chose to follow Revan to war (and presumably fall to the DS) against the greater "wisdom" of the Jedi Council, who cast her out because of her abberant teachings. Likewise, Atris felt betrayed by the Jedi interpretation of the Force because in her heart she believed the Exile--who she either admired or loved--was right to go to war. And shame at that belief is what drove her anger and lust for punishment. Surrounded by corruptive Sith holocrons, her faith in the Jedi view of the Force likely eroded even more.

 

On top of all that, we have the fact that Kreia was jaded by betrayals to the point that she came to hate the Force for controlling her destiny. While that is her belief, it is in no way certain that she was correct about there always having to be a "Darth Traya." Her own interpretation of existence is not the end all and be all, and as someone who was haunted by what others told her were her failures, she could be construed as desperate to justify why she was right. That, arguably, is her purpose behind training the Exile in the first place.

 

Anyway...

 

If there is a Darth Traya going forward, the best candidate IMO would have been a *light side* Exile--since I do believe that what Zez kai-el, Vrook, and Kavar tried to do at Dantooine constitutes a betrayal in terms of what the Jedi's interpretation of the Force *is*. The deeds of a LS Exile showed that the Jedi Order, by proxy, would not look beyond the Exile's wound to try to come to a greater understanding of her and the Force itself. That, to me, is a betrayal of "universal good" by the entire system of beliefs the Jedi Order was built upon. I know that my first time playing the game I was crushed by that scene, after all the good I had done and hoped to do by destroying the Sith, and I certainly think that it carries the emotional impact of a betrayal that could lead to a fall.

[Darca Lar]

I find it hard to believe that the canon of what happened in the other games, which at some points were largely based off of gender (the reasons why each character did each thing, the NPCs in your party, etc.), wouldn't play a large role in K3. Each action that both Revan and the Exile took were crucial to the Republic, as stated by Kreia and G0-T0, and proven by the plot itself. Since some of these actions were gender-defined, and light side/dark side defined, the developers have to assume that one side or the other is what actually happened.

 

For example, the Exile could have left Malachor, or stayed there. Also, the Ebon Hawk could have been destroyed, or survived the events. Unless K2 is pointless in the series, these must be addressed.

 

Well actually I posted an idea for that in the 'Jedi Vagrant' thread.

 

So the story of the crew(other than Mira or if DS, Hanharr, GO-TO and Remote) should be that they fly off Malachor,(with the Exile if LS, or without the Exile if DS) and go back to rendevous with everyone at Citadel Station, but don't mention whether the Exile was ever on board(LS they drop the Exile off on Nar Shadaa and swear secrecy. T3 also transfer's the locked navigation charts from Revan's travels to the Exile's datapad and then locks them again so the crew doesn't follow, DS the Exile flew off on Kreia's ship before the Ebon Hawk could get airborn again). The only thing they say is that the Exile is probably where Revan is.