The Theism/Atheism Discussion

[Nancy Allen``]

Counter question: do you blame religion for the rights that have occurred?

 

I'd say credit. If someone does the right thing then they are a good person. Religion is really a non factor.

 

If so, where do you draw the line?

 

Perhaps a useful place to draw it would be where they declare their acts as for God, though to be honest this rarely happens anymore. Example, a church benefit for Aids, it was a religious driven act but it was not made out to be a religious driven act, if you get my meaning.

 

Is the religious person good because something good was done in the name of religion?

 

They would probably be thought of as holy, if you wanted to use such a label.

 

Counter question: are all drunken drivers supposed to cause a crash or why is it that it is not allowed to drink and drive?

 

Alcohol does have an impact on many things, such as driving, especially when in excess. Have you drunk alcohol? In excess? If so then you will know the effect it has, and understand what makes drink driving so dangerous.

 

Are all weapon owners hijackers, or why are no weapons allowed on a plane?

 

The problem with this is that people don't know, they just are not able to make a judgement call on the spot whether or not someone will use a weapon. There is no profile, you cannot ban all Muslims from flights and expect it to be safe, such an idea would be unfair in any case. There are signs you can look for certainly. However it should stand to reason that in general having knives and guns on your person would cause trouble, especially on a plane where security might wonder why you would have such a weapon in such a place.

 

Do some propagate abstinence because every teen gets STD'd and impregnated whenever they have sex?

 

There are a few answers to this. One is because the act is holy. It is considered honoring God to practice abstinence. Another is teeens needing to learn the responsibility that comes with it, whether it be safe sex or the right way to go about it. Since we are talking about teens their age and lack of maturity (reletively) makes them vulnerable to being currupted by an older person.

 

I have trouble to number but one event where anti-/atheists incited an act of violent nature against theists over the matter of beliefs.

 

Perhaps they don't, yet their hypocritical desire to force change and hurt others comes through in their actions. Witness if you will those who badger theists on their beliefs being deluded, those who prefer insults and causing grief than any rational discussion. As I said if this is how they choose to poretray themselves then religion has already won, as no one would side with a group that portray themselves as jerks.

[Ray Jones]

I'd say credit. If someone does the right thing then they are a good person. Religion is really a non factor.

Good.

 

Perhaps a useful place to draw it would be where they declare their acts as for God, though to be honest this rarely happens anymore. Example, a church benefit for Aids, it was a religious driven act but it was not made out to be a religious driven act, if you get my meaning.

I'd draw the line where it's done to be religious (official or not) instead of righteous (official or not).

 

Alcohol does have an impact on many things, such as driving, especially when in excess. Have you drunk alcohol? In excess? If so then you will know the effect it has, and understand what makes drink driving so dangerous.

I did not ask what make drinking dangerous. I am a thinking man. I know why it is dangerous.

 

The point is, it is not allowed not because EVERY drunken driver causes a crash, but SOME did. And still, noone is allowed to drink and drive, if you catch that analogy.

 

The problem with this is that people don't know, they just are not able to make a judgement call on the spot whether or not someone will use a weapon. There is no profile, you cannot ban all Muslims from flights and expect it to be safe, such an idea would be unfair in any case. There are signs you can look for certainly. However it should stand to reason that in general having knives and guns on your person would cause trouble, especially on a plane where security might wonder why you would have such a weapon in such a place.

Yes, but seriously, is EVERYBODY who takes a weapon to a plane out to cause trouble and to hijack, just because ONE OR TWO others did use a knife to hijack a plane?

 

Perhaps they don't, yet their hypocritical desire to force change and hurt others comes through in their actions. Witness if you will those who badger theists on their beliefs being deluded, those who prefer insults and causing grief than any rational discussion. As I said if this is how they choose to poretray themselves then religion has already won, as no one would side with a group that portray themselves as jerks.

Oh, that depends, I say. I think I would not side with people talking about angels and skydaddies. That doesn't mean I'd support the misbehaviour of some stupid idiot just because he is not a theist. In fact I side with an opinion or viewpoint, not the people around it.

 

I mean, to get that really straight - anybody who offers me angels, a stringent sky mommy, and long legged satanic hellgirl - I AM SO IN. XD

[Nancy Allen``]

The point is, it is not allowed not because EVERY drunken driver causes a crash, but SOME did. And still, noone is allowed to drink and drive, if you catch that analogy.

 

Yeah, that's because alcohol, as well as other factors such as speed, increase the risk of losing control behind the wheel. A bottle of gin, if it doesn't kill you, will make you hopeless driving. Not just you, anybody.

 

Yes, but seriously, is EVERYBODY who takes a weapon to a plane out to cause trouble and to hijack, just because ONE OR TWO others did use a knife to hijack a plane?

 

People don't know that they won't. There is little reason for them to have it on board a plane. Transport? Sure, if you are able to then you can have it with your luggage rather than on your person. In case someone does try something? But that would mean that they were able to get a weapon through security, which is the reason why it exists in the first place. I don't think even Air Force One has a shooting gallery. So if they arn't going to use a gun to try and hijack a plane, why would they need to have it on their person?

 

Oh, that depends, I say. I think I would not side with people talking about angels and skydaddies. That doesn't mean I'd support the misbehaviour of some stupid idiot just because he is not a theist. In fact I side with an opinion or viewpoint, not the people around it.

 

Can I prove the existence of any such religion? To be honest I haven't worried about it, I don't think I need to prove it or try and justify it except by saying that people are entitled to follow religion, and for the intolerants who think otherwise, they're gonna hate this but if they are truely without sin then they cast the first stone.

[Rogue Warrior]

Condemning others because of their beliefs seems off but my view of religion is that it is a great evil that must be stopped whatever it takes.

[Arcesious]

Well then... Let's turn this into a debate then. None of the other threads suggested for resurrection to debate this topic (No offense, you're a great moderator Jae. ) really suit the core topic that well.

 

So then, let's bring forth all the things we've discussed in other threads (Such as stong, relevent points to a discussion of religion vrs athiesm)

 

I want to examine all of the sides thoroughly, but please, instead of throwing all kinds of different site links with goods points in them at each other to read, how about we sumarize the good points made in those things instead?(But if you still want to still cite a source then go ahead.)

 

Also, let's not get mad at each other over this again. Things in this topic I suggest we avoid are some of those old, over-done topics like abortion, homosexuality, and the like.

[SpartanPride]

One of my arguments against athiesm is miracles.

 

I have gone to a few healing conferences at my local church, and I have seen crippled people get off of their wheel chairs after a prayer. That's the point where I really believed in Christianity, because I had never really seen any evidence of God in my life.

[Nedak]

On the Star Wars forums there is a Christianity Debate that has been going on for quite a while.

 

Let me start out by stating the religion can not be supported by "facts". The facts that Christians bring out in a debate are things that are stated in the bible. Nothing I have seen so far have been scientifically proven and are based on faith.

 

These are some of the facts/questions I do know however, and base my beliefs off of them. Lets, make it clear that I am Agnostic. I believe there very well could be a god, I've done lots of research and am planning to get started on the Bible this summer. I will be reading it as if reading a story, rather then reading it and taking everything as literal as possible.

 

Religion has been around since man has inhabited the earth, it has been used by humans to give themselves an answer to why they are here and why do certain things happen.

 

Instead of putting up lots of facts I ask Christians to answer questions that no Christian has ever answered to me with logical answer.

 

Here are a few:

 

Why does god send those who question his existence to hell? Don't you think that since god gave everyone the will to think for themselves that he would understand a person doubting him?

 

Why do serial-killers who repent go to heaven while people who do small acts and live a great peaceful life burn for eternity?

 

How is the earth 6,000 years old like you all believe, when carbon dating can go much farther back?

 

These are only a few questions. I will ask more as the debate continues.

 

One of my arguments against athiesm is miracles.

 

I have gone to a few healing conferences at my local church, and I have seen crippled people get off of their wheel chairs after a prayer. That's the point where I really believed in Christianity, because I had never really seen any evidence of God in my life.

 

Isn't it possible that a person's will is strong? There are many other cases where people overcome a large obstacle such as that by using their will-power.

 

Also, if you're talking about the kind of healing that is seen on TV, those are fake if I'm not mistaken.

[SpartanPride]

Isn't it possible that a person's will is strong? There are many other cases where people overcome a large obstacle such as that by using their will-power.

 

Also, if you're talking about the kind of healing that is seen on TV, those are fake if I'm not mistaken.

 

First of all, no, I saw in real-time with my own eyes. It wasn't on T.V.

 

Hmm... but how would will power heal a problem such as being crippled or anything of the sort? I could see that with mental issue's, but how could will-power fix a physical problem.

[jonathan7]

On the Star Wars forums there is a Christianity Debate that has been going on for quite a while.

 

Let me start out by stating the religion can not be supported by "facts". The facts that Christians bring out in a debate are things that are stated in the bible. Nothing I have seen so far have been scientifically proven and are based on faith.

 

How do you know religion cannot be supported by facts? If somethign is true surely there will be evidence? I try to form my opinions through the framework I posted back in post 22 of this thread.

 

How is the earth 6,000 years old like you all believe, when carbon dating can go much farther back?

 

To be honest it is my opinion it tends to be the fundementalist lot that believe this. If someone has decided something on non logical grounds, logic will have no impact on their reasoning...

 

I'm a Christian and I believe in the big bang and evolution (so following on I believe the earth is around 6 billion years old and the universe 14.7 billion years old)

 

 

Why does god send those who question his existence to hell? Don't you think that since god gave everyone the will to think for themselves that he would understand a person doubting him?

 

Personally, I think the truth is never affraid to listen, and while a Christian, I constantly have doubts, over all sorts of issues. I also cannot judge where anyone is with God, I will proclaim the truth and therefore as I'm a Christian the Gospel as I understand it. Jesus in the Gospels speaks alot about judgement and the like, but it is his job do judge, I do not know the varuables in any individuals life. What I do know is that Jesus in the Gosples taught the only way to the father was through him. He also said to 'Love your neighbour' and to 'Love your enemies' two things I think many Christians fail to do.

 

Why do serial-killers who repent go to heaven while people who do small acts and live a great peaceful life burn for eternity?

 

The way I see things is that from the availible evidence only 2 'philosophies' are true; a) Christianity is true or b) atheism is true. (I'm sure some of my athiest friends around here will disagree with my former contention).

 

I think Christianity is different to all other religions in that other religions say you have to do x, y and z to get into heaven, while Christianity teaches that humanity can never be good enough to earn itself into heavens as our rights do no erase our wrongs. So God solved this problem by coming down to the world in human form.

 

Of course a big problem is that many Christians in my opinion do not represent love in the way they should. Indeed the Jesus portrayed in the Gospels spoke out continually against religious people (the Pharisee's and Saducee's) and unfortunatly many of todays Christians remind me of these two groups.

 

I hope that has answered a few of your questiosn.

[Darth333]

Didn't read the entire thread as I've been absent for a few days and freetime is a rare thing for me these times but try to read some Hans Kung. He does a good job at trying to reconcile science and Christianity.

[SpartanPride]

Why do serial-killers who repent go to heaven while people who do small acts and live a great peaceful life burn for eternity?

 

I've been taught that all you have to do to go to Heaven is believe in Jesus as your lord and saviour, and I believe that is simply the reason why.

 

Why does god send those who question his existence to hell? Don't you think that since god gave everyone the will to think for themselves that he would understand a person doubting him?

 

God loves us, and he wants us to love him. He could of easily made us so we had to love him, but what's the point of being loved by a bunch of mindless-zombie-like creatures?

He gave us a free-will so that we'd love him because we WANT too.

 

In the Bible, it says we (The Church) are God's bride. How would you like it if your bride was programmed to love you? No, I'm sure you would much rather have a wife (Or Husband) that loved you for who you are.

 

I think God is very much like a human, in the way he experiences joy, happiness, sadness, happiness, anger and other emotions.

[Corinthian]

Why does god send those who question his existence to hell? Don't you think that since god gave everyone the will to think for themselves that he would understand a person doubting him?

 

Why do serial-killers who repent go to heaven while people who do small acts and live a great peaceful life burn for eternity?

 

How is the earth 6,000 years old like you all believe, when carbon dating can go much farther back?

 

I was going to stay out of this. Religious debates are pointless. But I can't resist.

 

1: It's simple. Sin is anathema to God, it's hateful to him. Since God is Just as well as Loving, someone has to pay the price for the sin, and Jesus did so at the Cross. Unless you repent of your sins and ask forgiveness, thus passing on your sins to Jesus, you go to Hell because then the stain of Sin remains on your soul after death. I'm sure God DOES understand why someone would doubt him, but that's not really relevant.

 

2: See above.

 

3: Carbon dating isn't exactly 100% reliable. Besides, 6000 years is never explicitly stated in the Bible. It could be more, could be less. I personally don't care, although I don't believe in Macroevolution OR the Big Bang. It really doesn't matter that much, kind of like asking whether or not Jesus literally turned the bread and wine at the Last Supper into his literal flesh and blood. I don't believe he really did, given that since they all ate it, it would constitute cannibalism.

[Arcesious]

You do realize that there are more reliable dating methods than carbon dating now, which prove that earth is old.... Right?

 

Also, if God were in any way emotional, he would be unable to have the full level of logic attributed to him. Emotion is irrational oftentimes.

[Rev7]

Why do serial-killers who repent go to heaven while people who do small acts and live a great peaceful life burn for eternity?

Let me start with, do you actually have proof that they went to heaven? That really is beside the point though. I personally believe that whoever repents of their sins [i also believe that everybody sins, no one is exempt from it], and gives their life to Jesus will have eternal life. That is my personal belief though.

How is the earth 6,000 years old like you all believe, when carbon dating can go much farther back?

Well, I sat down on my bed one evening maybe a year ago [probably less] and looked in some geneology that the Bible gives. I counted at least 8,000 years. I personally believe that the Earth is a little bit older than that, but not by much. Carbon dating, as Corinthian pointed out, is not the most reliable.

EDIT-- I guess that I got my numbers wrong!

Instead of putting up lots of facts I ask Christians to answer questions that no Christian has ever answered to me with logical answer.

I probably should have quoted this a little bit earlier in my post, but I kinda forgot. I don't think that I can give you a "logical" answer for you. Not all things about God are answer in the Bible. God is still sorta a 'mystery', so to say.

Why does god send those who question his existence to hell? Don't you think that since god gave everyone the will to think for themselves that he would understand a person doubting him?

As I said, I personally don't think that I could give you a "logical" answer to your questions. I think that God gaves us free-will to make a choice. I don't think that I could really say anyhing more on that. I do also believe in the power of repentance.

[Achilles]

You do realize that there are more reliable dating methods than carbon dating now, which prove that earth is old.

Time to roll

out again.

 

Also, Arcesious, you may find this one pretty interesting as well.

[Corinthian]

Who cares anyway? It doesn't really matter how old the Earth is.

[Jae Onasi]

Why does god send those who question his existence to hell? Don't you think that since god gave everyone the will to think for themselves that he would understand a person doubting him?

Why should God force people to love Him? Is that an honest love, or is that turning all of us into little robots parroting "I love God!!"?

 

If you're right about God not existing, then why are you worried about hell?

[Arcesious]

Time to roll this guy out again.

 

Also, Arcesious, you may find this one pretty interesting as well.

 

Well one problem with that... My parents have a really annoying parental blocking thing called bsafe on my computer that blocks sites like youtube... It's never gotten in the way of debates before but this time it did... Especially when I searched on wikipedia for 'dating methods' as in methods of giving ages to rocks, it blocked the search, so i was unable to cite a source... If this thing is goign to get in the way of debating then I really have to get rid of it soon... I wish I knew how. And that is not intended as an excuse...

 

So can you sumarize what is said in those videos for me?

[Achilles]

Well one problem with that... My parents have a really annoying parental blocking thing called bsafe on my computer that blocks sites like youtube... It's never gotten in the way of debates before but this time it did... Especially when I searched on wikipedia for 'dating methods' as in methods of giving ages to rocks, it blocked the search, so i was unable to cite a source... If this thing is goign to get in the way of debating then I really have to get rid of it soon... I wish I knew how. And that is not intended as an excuse...

 

So can you sumarize what is said in those videos for me?

The first one is a "layman's" breakdown of potassium-argon dating (not actually layman, but has lots of helpful animations, shows you the math but doesn't beat you over the head with it, set to pop music, etc). Potassium-argon is helpful because it is reliable and has a scope longer than the age of the earth. Carbon dating is great when used properly (organic material less than 50,000 years old, etc), but is limited. Just backing up your point that carbon isn't the only game in town.

 

The second one discussed DNA and life origins and attempted to educate creationists as to what the science *actually* shows as opposed to what other creationists try to say it does.

[JCarter426]

The first one talks about potassium-argon dating (and how it proves that the Earth is much, much older than 6,000 years old), while the second debunks Creationists' claims that scientists believe that life "popped out of nowhere", by describing how DNA is formed. It did fail to mention that one of the tests it cites was based on improper data concerning what the atmosphere was composed of way back when, but that doesn't disprove the theory (in fact, it actually proves that it's more likely ).

 

EDIT: ...and Achilles beat me too it.

[Jae Onasi]

Humor mode way, way on....

 

but has lots of helpful animations...set to pop music,

Oh, yeah, that's my criteria for a good treatment of K-Ar information. Does the anime style or claymation make it more accurate? If we set it to the Smurf theme song or anything by Janet Jackson does it automatically fail?

 

I now return you all to actual serious discussion.

[Emperor Devon]

Why should God force people to love Him? Is that an honest love, or is that turning all of us into little robots parroting "I love God!!"?

 

Belief in god and in free will are mutually exclusive. (Kudos to SD for this argument, btw.)

 

Premise:

1. God is omniscient

2. God created everything

 

I doubt these will be contested. Extrapolating from 1 and 2, it has to be assumed god can predict every eventual action, decision, or semblance of thought in an individual - he's omniscient, omnipotent and a dozen other adjectives to describe being all-knowing and all-powerful, right?

 

No, the argument isn't 'fate is inevitable, god already knows what you're planning to do'. But that's part of it - the response I'd suspect most christians would have is 'that's irrelevant, god may know the end results of our decisions but that's unrelated to our own ability to freely arrive at them.'

 

So what exactly does free will mean at this given phase? The definition has been muddled up a bit, but let's see what Wikipedia says:

 

whether, and in what sense, rational agents exercise control over their actions and decisions.

 

This is incompatible with the first two established premises. First, it's impossible for someone to be responsible for the make-up of their own soul (and whatever is associated thereof with it). This being because a person's self isn't subjective to their personal whims, (we can't assume other personalities at will) and also because it negates any creative effort on god's part.

 

So, we're left at a fairly muddy yet entirely logical conclusion: we are not responsible for the way we think about things. (God made our souls for us, and our souls determine how we act.) Subsequently, it's impossible for us to be truly responsible for causing situations that we react towards; there's a measure of internal decision-making before every action, and as noted above that's out of the picture.

 

So, er, where's free will in all this? It's natural to reply 'we can think on our own, because of that we can arrive at our own decisions'. But as this argument has pointed out, your soul (the thing with which you formulate decisions) has already been predetermined for you by god. You may technically be making decisions, but you're doing so in a preordained and impossible to alter manner. Hells, god even knows the decisions you're going to arrive at far in advance. So where really is the 'free' part in our wills?

 

(Wish I could take credit for this argument, but I've got to hand it to a discussion with Samuel Dravis the other night.)

 

If you're right about God not existing,

 

Don't be presumptuous. One can still be an atheist without denying the existence of a god.

[Arcesious]

How does it's form of presentation matter if it is correct in what it says?

[Achilles]

It did fail to mention that one of the tests it cites was based on improper data concerning what the atmosphere was composed of way back when, but that doesn't disprove the theory (in fact, it actually proves that it's more likely ).

Since it didn't cite which studies were used for reference, how do you know? (hint: it wasn't Urey-Miller )

 

Oh, yeah, that's my criteria for a good treatment of K-Ar information.

Me too.

 

How does it's form of presentation matter if it is correct in what it says?

It doesn't, but I think the production helps the material seem not quite so dry. I doubt anyone (not studying the subject for school) wouldn't get very much from the video if it were just a .ppt.

[Corinthian]

Uhh...Devon, the whole purpose of Atheism is that Atheists do not believe in the existence of a Deity or Deities. That's the definition of a word. If you believe in a Deity, you are not an Atheist.

 

Anyway, what does it matter if the Earth is 6000 or 60000 or 6,000,000,000 years old when it comes to the existence of a God or Gods? I really don't care either way, it doesn't make any real differerence. I seriously doubt God REALLY cares whether or not we believe he did it all in seven literal days or seven metaphorical days.

 

And, Devon, with that argument on Free Will, well, even if there is no God, we still don't have Free Will because we still don't determine the composition in Ectoplasm and Spirit Juice of our souls, if we even have any. We don't have free will because we don't determine the exact design of our nervous systems. (Boy, that'd be weird. Some kind of Choose your Own Adventure before you begin fetal development.)