What rights should homosexuals have?

[Arcesious]

It would be really kind of nice if you people would lay off the insults. ~snipped~ I'm done debating these bigger subjects.

 

Arcesious, that's why this forum has moderators. If you have a concern about a post or feel like it's flaming, feel free to click the 'report post' feature (the little yellow dot next the the red/green dot beneath someone's title/avatar--everyone's except your own, you can't report your own post). Let us take care of it after that. --Jae

[MdKnightR]

Let me try to address the topic from a different angle.

 

The whole ideal of America is one of freedom, "live and let live." Don't you think it goes against this to attempt to limit the lives of others, and for no better reason than the "ick" factor? Because, let's be honest here, the reason people oppose gay rights is not because, "it'll harm the children" or, "it'll destroy marriage!" It's because when people think of gays, all they think of is gay sex, and gay sex is icky, so we must oppose it!

 

Gays having rights won't affect heterosexuals at all. Marriage won't disappear, the economy won't collapse, the population won't die out, and children won't be scarred for life. I simply fail to see how someone can argue relegating someone to second-class citizenship and think themselves good for doing so.

 

Very well put indeed!

[Aeroldoth]

Thanks, I wish someone would answer it.

[PoiuyWired]

Let me try to address the topic from a different angle.

 

What I want to ask is, "why do you think your views should be imposed on others?" It's perfectly fine to have opinions and make decisions on what sorts of things you want in your life, but why do you feel it is good to force others to live according to your views? What do you think justifies telling others how they can or cannot live?

 

The whole ideal of America is one of freedom, "live and let live." Don't you think it goes against this to attempt to limit the lives of others, and for no better reason than the "ick" factor? Because, let's be honest here, the reason people oppose gay rights is not because, "it'll harm the children" or, "it'll destroy marriage!" It's because when people think of gays, all they think of is gay sex, and gay sex is icky, so we must oppose it!

 

Religious arguments regarding homosexuality only apply to members of that faith, not anybody else. By using a religion's position on sexuality (of any kind) to argue enforcement of same is to attempt to force others to follow/obey your faith. That works for theocracies, not republics.

 

Gays having rights won't affect heterosexuals at all. Marriage won't disappear, the economy won't collapse, the population won't die out, and children won't be scarred for life. I simply fail to see how someone can argue relegating someone to second-class citizenship and think themselves good for doing so.

 

^^^

QFT.

 

Opposing other's right with your own religion as basis is just bad.

 

Some stuff other people do might not be appealing to you, but bear in mind that in their eyes you might be doing something unappealing also. Don't invade other people's rights because you "don't like what they are doing" if their actions does not directly affects you.

 

Its not like someone is trying to give you a sore bum.

[Eiganjo]

"live and let live."

 

Don't you think it would affect a childs life greatly to grow up without either a mother or a father. You are talking about the right of gay people, which by all means are not normal, but I'm more concerned about the childs right of having a normal life. Don't get me wrong, let them be gay if they want to, but don't let them affect another persons life with it, especially since a child can't do anything about his/her parents.

[mur'phon]

gay people, which by all means are not normal

 

Geniuses aren't normal either, not being normal dosen't mean being any "worse" than the majority. I'm curious why you are pointing out the obvious.

 

 

but I'm more concerned about the childs right of having a normal life.

 

Far from everyone get adopted, those who don't end up in orphanages with lots of kids, few adults (and they tend to be only women....), and generaly end up as "loosers" later in life. Who do you think have it worse, the kid in the orphanage or the kid who have two same-sex adults who loves them?

[Eiganjo]

I will just answer that with a question: Don't you think a child is better of with two opposite-sex parents than a pair of same-sex ones?

And you want to tell me there is no diffrence between being adopted by a genius and a gay person? Whichever way you put it, there is just no reason why a child should go to a gay couple, as long as there are heterosexual couples that are willing to adopt a child. Because the best environment for a child is, was and always will be to have a Father and a Mother.

[Dagobahn Eagle]

I will just answer that with a question: Don't you think a child is better of with two opposite-sex parents than a pair of same-sex ones?

No. Lesbian parents have been proven to be better parents than one man and one woman. I'll provide a link.

 

Here we go.

 

Wiki's summary:

[...] Children's Development of Social Competence Across Family Types, a major report prepared by the Department of Justice (Canada) in July 2006 but not released by the government until forced to do so by a request under the Access to Information Act in May 2007, reaches this conclusion:

 

The strongest conclusion that can be drawn from the empirical literature is that the vast majority of studies show that children living with two mothers and children living with a mother and father have the same levels of social competence. A few studies suggest that children with two lesbian mothers may have marginally better social competence than children in traditional nuclear families, even fewer studies show the opposite, and most studies fail to find any differences. The very limited body of research on children with two gay fathers supports this same conclusion.

 

Game, set and match.

[mur'phon]

I will just answer that with a question: Don't you think a child is better of with two opposite-sex parents than a pair of same-sex ones?

 

I don't honestly know, there probably is a diference, wether it's negative or not I don't know. Feel free to show me anything showing homosexuals to be worse parrents than heterosexuals.

 

And you want to tell me there is no diffrence between being adopted by a genius and a gay person?

 

A person could be both you know...........

 

Whichever way you put it, there is just no reason why a child should go to a gay couple, as long as there are heterosexual couples that are willing to adopt a child.

 

Emphasis mine.

You are asuming there is enough heterosexual couples willing to adopt a child, yet the amount of persons in orphanages sugest this isn't so. The choice isn't betwen hetero or homo sexuals, but betwen homosexuals and orphanages. Even if it's proven that homosexual parents are worse than heterosexual ones, there isn't enough heterosexuals who want to adopt.

 

So I ask you again: Who do you think have it worse, the kid in the orphanage or the kid who have two same-sex adults who loves them?

[Dagobahn Eagle]

And you want to tell me there is no diffrence between being adopted by a genius and a gay person?

The point is that not normal≠less suited for parenthood.

 

Don't get me wrong, let them be gay if they want to, but don't let them affect another persons life with it, especially since a child can't do anything about his/her parents.

At least in Norway, orphanage children can choose for themselves which parents to go to from the age of 12, meaning they could, if they wanted to, refuse to go to a homosexual couple.

[Aeroldoth]

Whichever way you put it, there is just no reason why a child should go to a gay couple, [...]

Why not?

 

[...] as long as there are heterosexual couples that are willing to adopt a child.

As Mur'phon pointed out, there aren't.

 

Because the best environment for a child is, was and always will be to have a Father and a Mother.

On what do you base this opinion?

[Web Rider]

I will just answer that with a question: Don't you think a child is better of with two opposite-sex parents than a pair of same-sex ones?

 

Many geniuses are societally-inept, work many hours a day, have no skill with children, and aren't necessarily financially well off enough. Many of them were pushed hard by their parents, and thus are likly to think many, less than pretty, parenting techniques are good for raising a child.

 

So you're saying, it's better that a single man/woman, who has no socializing skills, is rarely home, may or may not have a lot of money, and know no good tactics for parenting kids is a better parent than two gay people?

 

I don't know if you've noticed, but geniuses tend to be about as far from "normal" as gays.

[Serpentine Cougar]

No. Lesbian parents have been proven to be better parents than one man and one woman. [...]

 

Wiki's summary:

[...] Children's Development of Social Competence Across Family Types, a major report prepared by the Department of Justice (Canada) in July 2006 but not released by the government until forced to do so by a request under the Access to Information Act in May 2007, reaches this conclusion:

 

The strongest conclusion that can be drawn from the empirical literature is that the vast majority of studies show that children living with two mothers and children living with a mother and father have the same levels of social competence. A few studies suggest that children with two lesbian mothers may have marginally better social competence than children in traditional nuclear families, even fewer studies show the opposite, and most studies fail to find any differences. The very limited body of research on children with two gay fathers supports this same conclusion.

At least from the summary, it seems to me that it actually argues that there's no difference.

 

So you're saying, it's better that a single man/woman, who has no socializing skills, is rarely home, may or may not have a lot of money, and know no good tactics for parenting kids is a better parent than two gay people?

Actually I don't think Eiganjo said anything about single parents.

[Eiganjo]

No. Lesbian parents have been proven to be better parents than one man and one woman.

Oh, now you want to tell me a boy's lesbian parents can teach him how to be a man? That they will be able to teach him how to work on cars(not saying there isn't girls that know how to deal with cars) or play football with them? A girl with lesbian parents will have a really hard time getting help in how to deal with boys. And I don't even want to think about two fathers explaining a little girl about her period...

On what do you base being better Parents?

 

A person could be both you know...........

You know, I had already written that down until I figured that noone would throw an argument like that. Comparing these two properties does not mean that they can't co-exist.

[Web Rider]

Actually I don't think Eiganjo said anything about single parents.

 

I was under the impression that his use of the singular "genius" instead of it's plural form indicated he thought one "genius" parent was better than two homosexual parents.

 

Oh, now you want to tell me a boy's lesbian parents can teach him how to be a man? That they will be able to teach him how to work on cars(not saying there isn't girls that know how to deal with cars) or play football with them? A girl with lesbian parents will have a really hard time getting help in how to deal with boys. And I don't even want to think about two fathers explaining a little girl about her period...

On what do you base being better Parents?

You wanna know how much my mom taught me about dealing with girls? jack. I learned almost everything I know from my father. Women who are straight do not know how to approach a girl with the intent of flirting with her. Why? For the obvious reason, they've never done it. Not to mention my mother grew up in the 60's(teen years), her knoweledge about girls today is minimal. At least my father has experiance on how to approach girls from a guy's perspective and what he's done that was successful and what wasnt.

 

Oh, and it's a well known fact that men know nothing about the female period. WRONG. While I'm sure that two gay men would be a little lost in how it actually feels, that doesn't stop them from being able to be kind and nice and make the girl understand that this kid of thing is normal and healthy.

 

jeeze, your argument is essentially saying that a single mother of a son could never raise them with any knoweledge on how to be a boy, and a single father of a daughter could never teach their daught to be girly.

 

But come on, sexist much? Since when did every last boy and girl have to be the embodyment of "maleness" or "femaleness"? Girls raised by men and boys raised by woman may gain some valuable insight into how the other functions, it would be great for society.

[mimartin]

Oh, now you want to tell me a boy's lesbian parents can teach him how to be a man?

Are you saying a female heterosexual couldn’t raise a boy to be a man either without a father in the household? Or are you only speaking to homosexual females?

 

I’m a man and my mother did not benefit from my father’s influence till I was already a man. Single mothers raise many boys into to adulthood without a father; do you have any arguments that show that it would not be possible for two female parents to raise a boy into a man? Honor, honesty, trustworthy, compassion, reliability, patience, manners are the criteria that I measure myself by and these can be taught by any gender to their loved one. Besides, even if these children do not have a male influence within the household couldn’t they have a male family member outside the household or a male friend of the family to be a role model to them? I had uncles and a grandfather figure as mine.

That they will be able to teach him how to work on cars(not saying there isn't girls that know how to deal with cars) or play football with them?[/Quote]Books, jobs or a coach. My mother still does not even know how to put gas in her car, yet I put a new compressor (A/C in case you did not know) into my car less than a month ago. I know more about auto repair than many of my friends that had dads. Why? Because if I wanted it fixed I had to learn to do it myself and not let a parent do it for me. Information that has greatly benefited me in life as working in a gas station and tire repair paid for my first two year of college.

 

I played sports (football and baseball) never had anyone show me how to throw a ball, but the other kids in the neighborhood. Most of them learn how to do it from their siblings and not their fathers either. Oh, and I was a pitcher though Babe Ruth League Baseball and no I did not throw underhanded.

 

A girl with lesbian parents will have a really hard time getting help in how to deal with boys.[/Quote]Why? Don’t you think they were adolescent at onetime. How do you know they did not go out on dates with boys in high school? Beside boys that age are not hard to figure out. At least I know I wasn’t and my friend were not. Even if I was raised without a father’s influence.

 

And I don't even want to think about two fathers explaing a gil about her period...

I’ve actually had to deal with this. One of my cousins got her first one when I was watching them. It was comical, but not difficult. Again, these two fathers could do as I did and call a female friend.

[Tommycat]

I had to respond to this:

 

Oh, now you want to tell me a boy's lesbian parents can teach him how to be a man? That they will be able to teach him how to work on cars(not saying there isn't girls that know how to deal with cars) or play football with them? A girl with lesbian parents will have a really hard time getting help in how to deal with boys. And I don't even want to think about two fathers explaining a little girl about her period...

First off, I think that my wife would be very upset to hear that she can't teach someone to work on cars. I mean her dragster that she built, welded on, hammered out the sheet metal for, MUST have been mostly me. I know a great many guys who cannot work on their own cars(hey it keeps mechanics in business). Can you tell me the best cam to get a smooth idle and be able to get 525HP on a chevy small block with an internally balanced 400 crank and bored 30 over the stock 4.000? Or what the compression ration would be with that cam and 72CC heads(assuming flat top pistons and 6" rods)? My wife can. Funny thing is, our best friend couldn't even change his own tire. My wife did it(in a skirt and heels no less haha).

 

I hate when people make assumptions that women can't work on cars. Considering my wife and I work on our cars together, I just can't stand the stereotype. Heck a friend of mine when we couldn't figure out what was wrong with an engine asked his mom(not his dad) what it might be. And she knew the answer.

 

I hate stereotypes.

 

Oh and by the way: Most same sex couples have a male and a female role, even if the outward appearance is the same.

[El Sitherino]

Oh, now you want to tell me a boy's lesbian parents can teach him how to be a man?

Gender doesn't make one capable of teaching a boy how to be a man, infact the way I see it apparently fathers have been failing to do that for quite some time. I look around, don't see many men, just grown boys acting like the childish craps they are.

 

 

That they will be able to teach him how to work on cars(not saying there isn't girls that know how to deal with cars) or play football with them?

I've seen some lesbians that could probably take out an NFL linebacker, so yeah, I think they can do it.

 

A girl with lesbian parents will have a really hard time getting help in how to deal with boys.

Not really, love/relationships are pretty much the same no matter what combination. Especially in the teen years, lots of angst, lots of "but I wanna".

 

And I don't even want to think about two fathers explaining a little girl about her period...

You know, that happens from time to time in hetero couples, and single parents, too.

 

On what do you base being better Parents?

Showing love to a child, despite because of their flaws. Teaching them how to be a real human being by showing (com)passion, empathy, and respect. These are what make a true, normal human(e) being.

 

You know, I had already written that down until I figured that noone would throw an argument like that. Comparing these two properties does not mean that they can't co-exist.

 

You shouldn't have even made the comparison. A genius will do no better job raising a child than a gay person. A genius would only come into play through genetics, as their child would be genetically predisposed toward being of higher intellect. A genius' traits cannot be rubbed off on an adopted child, except that they'll probably understand the value of a great education and will likely encourage their adopted child to study and achieve a great education. However, this can be equally accomplished if said adopted kid was placed with a gay adoptive parent or parents who also encourage the same. So moot **** point.

[Eiganjo]

The diffrence is Lesbians are women that are focused on women, and thats the diffrence. They either don't like, or care about men, unlike a heterosexual womn would do, and hence has way less experience.

And it is well known fact, that boys with only one parent are more common to be convicted of a crime, and most of the teen pregnancy cases are of girls with a single parent. So yes, I am saying that a single parent has not everything that is neccesary to raise a child properly. And of course there is exceptions again, don't start me on that, but it doesn't change the fact.

 

Let me add this question. Do you think you would be better of, if your mother would be replaced by a second gay father, or the other way around? Why is it of advantage to not have the possibility to have a parent of each gender?

Frankly, I did not even consider before, that anybody would not think of a father and a mother as ideal for a child...

 

Oh, and Tommycat: I have no doubt that there are some skilled female mechanics. Thats why I included the one sentence in the (...). There are always exceptions to everything. Doesn't change the fact that the majority of automechanics are male

[Dagobahn Eagle]

Let me add this question. Do you think you would be better of, if your mother would be replaced by a second gay father, or the other way around?

Bad way to phrase the question. I don't want my parents switched around, nor do most other offspring.

 

Why is it of advantage to not have the possibility to have a parent of each gender?

I already answered that above. There are some studies that suggest that children of lesbian parents are abused less than those of heterosexual parents. A few even suggest they fare better socially.

 

Frankly, I did not even consider before, that anybody would not think of a father and a mother as ideal for a child...

Of course not. We're used to thinking of the social structure we grow up in as the 'right' and 'ideal' one, and won't question things no one else question.

[Ray Jones]

The diffrence is Lesbians are women that are focused on women, and thats the diffrence. They either don't like, or care about men, unlike a heterosexual womn would do, and hence has way less experience.

You know, some women "turn gay" after they had some experiences with men. Same goes for men.

 

 

I'm just curious, what do you think what parents do when they raise children? I mean there are *tons* of things in life more important than to know how to engage in the opposite gender. And while we're at social interaction, friendship, reliability, trust, all things that are not gender dependent, but must be learned. Moreover, parents who have nothing better to do than teaching their 5 year old kiddo how to get it on with the other kiddos fail in my eyes.

[Eiganjo]

Bad way to phrase the question. I don't want my parents switched around, nor do most other offspring.

It is not a bad way to phrase a question. I know I would not accept a second father, if that in any way would happen to me. Actually I think I would not only not accept the second, but loose all my respect for my actual one.

 

And yeah, I guess that's how I was raised. I had never even met a gay person until I moved to the US, and I know some people may have a problem with me saying that, but it grosses me out. I actually already changed my mind into accepting gay people as they are, even though I still try to stay away from them. And seriously, cross-dressing guys and all having two guys talk about ana* ***...I hope they do not try to adopt a child, I'm sorry, but that is just too much.

[Ray Jones]

You know gay people have other things to do as well, besides **** butts or dress up somehow. And just so you know, men dressing up in womens dresses is not necessarily connected to gayness. And do you also have a problem with girls riding plastic dicks?

 

 

And of course you wouldn't "accept" your new father. On the other hand, in case your father would leave for another woman, would you accept her right away to replace your "old" mother?

[mur'phon]

Let me add this question. Do you think you would be better of, if your mother would be replaced by a second gay father, or the other way around?

 

I wouldn't mind if one of my parrents where switched with one of the opposite sex any more than if they where switched with one of the same sex.

 

Now would you kidly answer this question: Who do you think have it worse, the kid in the orphanage or the kid who have two same-sex adults who loves them?

 

Oh, now you want to tell me a boy's lesbian parents can teach him how to be a man?

 

Gender roles are largely decided by culture, and personally I believe it would be a good thing if same sex parrents could blur the line betwen male/female roles. But asuming gender roles are something we want, the guy would be no worse of than the guy in an orphanage with only female workers.

[Rogue Nine]

As a bit of anecdotal evidence, I was raised by my grandmother and several aunts, with no father figure present during my formative years. I am straight, fairly well-adjusted (I think), have not committed any crimes and am relatively successful in most things I do. The lack of a father figure in my life has not affected me negatively in any way whatsoever.

 

In regards to the topic of gay adoption/parenting the American Medical Association (link) fully supports same-sex adoption, the American Psychological Association (link) deems gay parents fit and that children's psychosocial development is not impaired in anyway, and the American Academy of Pediatrics (link) promotes full support of same-sex adoption.

 

If it's good enough for those guys, it's good enough for me.