Jae Onasi Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 Take your pick: Morality My theories on Nature, Man and Evolution Your thread on Science and Christianity Creation/Evolution and science and the ever-popular Theism/Atheism Discussion That's not an exhaustive list, btw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bee Hoon Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 Arcesious, it's very brave of you to admit that maybe you were wrong. Don't worry about being 15, all of us were (or will be) at one time. It sounds like a tough situation, but just try to broach the topic gently. You could try sounding out your parents on a few of the issues which bothers you first, and see how they react if you disagree with their points on it. Keep your own points non-confrontational and backed up with plenty of facts. It would be overly optimistic to hope that they'll turn around within 3 minutes and say that they'll accept it (although we can hope ), but hopefully they'll come around eventually. Just remember that this is something very personal, and if they do the "OMG SINNING" thing, it might be better to tell them calmly that such a reaction whereby they close their ears and their minds will only serve to push you further away. At which point, strategically walk sideways until you reach the nearest exit and RUN AWAY!! Erm, I mean, retreat can be the better part of valour. Live to fight another day! Well, you get the idea. I hope this helped. Good luck~! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uilleand Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 I'm with Astrotoy on this one. I don't believe there's a need to push and create waves if you truly believe your home/support may be at risk because of it. (And this is coming from someone who's managed to make a career out of asking uncomfortable questions.) Take this time in your life to question, to seek, to share. If there isn't any support for this at home, there's no real need to involve them in it. Luckily for you there's the Intrawebz, huh? A whole planet of people willing to talk, debate and share about their world views and religions. I will always applaud a keen mind and firm questioning. Apply it to everything in life - your peers, your government, your faith. Then, when you do truly find a set of beliefs that you're comfortable with, you'll be able to own them entirely - and not have your faith shaken by a website or book or two. There are a lot of convincing websites out there for a lot of different points of view. Look at them all with a clear and open mind, analyze them, be aware of the messages people are trying to feed you. Be aware of the tricks and imagery that are used to appeal to you - from cigarette ads to runway models to science to religion. Before anyone tries to put words in my mouth, I tend to waffle between atheism and agnosticism. But I hate to see someone completely discard one school of thought and try to replace it with another. There is merit in *most* things, and I don't believe any of it has to be an all-or-nothing endeavour. My apologies. I've babbled. That's what happens when you let an old journalist have the floor. *bows* Good for you! Keep asking questions! But have room in your heart for other people's answers that are different from your own - especially if those people love you a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommycat Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 Having admitted to my parents that I was an athiest at 15 myself, I understand where you are coming from. Fortunately for me, it was much easier. I just said I didn't think the church could teach me what I wanted to know. That got them asking me questions. Having them ask the questions helps in that they are in a more sensible state of mind. Remind them that while you may not believe in christianity, that doesn't mean that you suddenly stop trusting in much of the values you have learned. Nothing says that science and faith are mutually exclusive. Science and SOME beliefs are mutually exclusive, but you don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Even if you don't take the faith with you there are still good lessons, and general advice on living. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD-Rom Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 So sad that you've decided not to be Christian (I'm Catholic) anymore, but that's your choice. No one can force you. I hope you find whatever it is you're looking for (no offense meant, I just don't know anything about it ) in Atheism, and just I hope your parents will learn to tolerate, if not accept, your choice to convert. You've got our support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Jones Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 I think Astro brought up a very good point--since this is such a major decision, it would be wise to seek assistance from professionals to work with you and your parents--school counselor, trusted clergy, etc. We aren't professionals here and we can certainly offer opinions, but it's just not the same as face-to-face professional assistance.I think Jae, when a youngling struggles about the fact that he develops his own view on things just because he's getting older, the last thing he needs to call on the plan is the professionals. What he wants is advice and other people's experiences and what he needs for that is people he kind of trusts, like his uncle or friends, or even people from that internet forum he frequents. He's not ill in any form nor has he serious problems or ideas about killing people. All he got is this thought that the answers his parents' religion offers to his questions about this world are not sufficient to him, and he's unsure about how to tell his parents that some of his views might differ, if he's gonna do it at all. And I think everybody here has some kind of experience regarding this topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCarter426 Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 He's not ill in any form nor has he serious problems or ideas about killing people. Ah, but remember the old creed: just because you need a therapist doesn't mean something's wrong with you. However, I wouldn't suggest seeing a therapist, as (no offense intended) I have little faith in psychology. Better, as you say, to seek out someone who has been through the same situation. Which is what Arcesious is doing, is it not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Jones Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 Why would I need a therapist when there's nothing wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan7 Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 Why would I need a therapist when there's nothing wrong? Keep telling yourself that... your in denial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCarter426 Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 Don't we all need someone to talk to. I'm tempted to say "no" because I don't talk to anyone, but I'm not the paradigm of good mental health. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mimartin Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 Ah, but remember the old creed: just because you need a therapist doesn't mean something's wrong with you. At $75 per hour, the therapist will find something wrong with anyone. Nothing wrong with seeing a therapist, even thought about going into that line of work when I was in college until I figured I had enough problems to deal with on my own and did not need to add others problems to them. I just agree with Ray Jones in this case. Although it really doesn’t matter what any of us think, Arcesious will have to do whatever he is most comfortable with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCarter426 Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 As I said, I would not suggest seeing a therapist. But you're right, it's up to Arcesious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nedak Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 I don't expect a person not to attempt and suede a person to their beliefs, but this thread in the long run is just going to turn into a debate of religion. I don't care what he believes in, whether he is converting to Christianity, or is becoming a member of the Church of Spaghetti Monster... it doesn't matter to me. Do what you all wish, but I just have to remind you all that this wasn't meant to be a debate on religion to start out with, it was a person needing help with expressing their beliefs to their parents. Now, if Arcesious would like people to try and persuade him away from his beliefs then that is a separate story. I'm just saying how if I were in his shoes, how I would want advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jae Onasi Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 Actually, I never said therapist. I'm also not qualified to say whether he's ill or not, so I'm not touching that. If there is a family dynamic that is interfering with effective communication, than a family therapist acting as mediator might be useful after all. You don't have to be ill to benefit from a family counselor's expertise. None of us has 100 percent perfect families. Mod note: The religion vs. atheism discussion was merged with the The Theism/Atheism discussion.. Please continue discussion of that particular argument there. Sorry Arcesious, but your thread topic is the same as that one, so they're getting combined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcesious Posted April 22, 2008 Author Share Posted April 22, 2008 Okay, well I need a good way to present this before my parents now... This is pretty rusty, and I'm not allt hat good with words, so any help in perfecting it would be apreciated... Here it is: There is no easy way to say this. So I guess I’ll have to be extremely thorough and cover all my grounds. It has taken me a very long time to put this together, and I hope that you will accept this. I am being honest here, and I don’t want this to blow out of proportion. I am an agnostic. Not an atheist, but pretty close. That’s pretty simply what I am. I am not a rebellious teenager. Please realize that now before you read any further or attempt to criticize my actions. I am basing all of my beliefs on evidence and logic. These discussions will help show what I believe, and hopefully help you further understand me. Please do not instantly deny what I will show you here, consider it as something possible. Every question you have should be covered within this and another link further into this message: http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=188076 Hopefully that helps you understand what it’s like for me in this situation. I do not by any grounds want to argue with you about this. I have made up my mind and by all logic and reason I am cognitively capable of, so I know what I’m accepting here. Things have never been more clear for me than after I started on this search for truth. I will quote this most importantly for you to consider: “This is to aid all those who really want to seek the truth, this is my personal way of deciding what is true. I think it would be best to use the quotes which most reflect my thinking and where my reasoning comes from. They are from minds, far more reasoned and intelligent than my own; firstly as a member of the intellegencia I would have to agree with Bertrand Russell that “Not to be absolutely certain is, I think, one of the essential things in rationality.” I fully concur with this statement as I believe the search for absolute truths misunderstands the nature of the human mind; there is absolute truth, but can any human ever be in possession of it? All we can really do is seek truth with all our hearts and minds, to constantly test what we believe against facts, to be in a constant state of a reformation of our thought. As such I think it is far better for us to attach a percentage value to how sure we are of things we have investigated. The real question is do you want to seek the truth, or be comfortable in what you believe? If you really want to find the truth read on, if not I would advise you stop reading shortly; I say this because the search for truth can be uncomfortable, it could mean having to throw out an entire set of beliefs you have had for most of your life. Stop reading now, if you would rather believe lies than to search for truth. It is my belief most people don’t really seek truth as they tend to only ever read things which back up pre-existing suppositions; instead of reading both sides of an argument then coming to a reasoned and logical conclusion. Albert Einstein said “The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. One cannot help but be in awe when he contemplates the mysteries of eternity, of life, of the marvellous structure of reality. It is enough if one tries merely to comprehend a little of this mystery every day. Never lose a holy curiosity.” The philosopher William Godwin said; “I will follow truth wherever she leads.” (I think Plato said something along these lines as well but I couldn’t find the quote). I would concur with Rene Descartes when he said "If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things". This quote from Descartes is highly important; as Sherlock Holmes said; "I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts". If you have already decided on an answer; not matter what evidence is given to the contrary having already decided not on logical grounds; logic will have no impact on your ‘reasoning’. Bertrand Russell pointed out; “If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason to act in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence”. We must find out where our natural biases are, as we will all have them, and indeed what we believe must be what we test most verdantly to make sure we are correct. Here is a great quote from my favourite Philosopher and in my opinion that greatest mind of the last millennia; Nietzsche, he said; “At every step one has to wrestle for truth; one has to surrender for it almost everything to which the heart, to which our love, our trust in life, cling otherwise. That requires greatness of soul: the service of truth is the hardest service. What does it mean, after all, to have integrity in matters of the spirit? That one is severe against one's heart...that one makes of every Yes and No a matter of conscience.” It is my belief that in seeking truth we should work in a somewhat scientific manner that is to say that we should hypothesize then test our hypothesis. The Atheist philosopher David Hume said “A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence”. I would have to argue that we should always believe what we believe based on the evidence that we have gathered. Now intellectually if we are constantly testing what we believe and as we can never 100% rule something out, this means we should allow others their opinions no matter how illogical they may seem on the small chance we are wrong. Protagoras said; “There are two sides to every question.” Following that I would quote one of the great Greeks; “It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.” (Aristotle). Bertrand Russell has produce an awesome quote which I have taken from a collection of his essays published as a book 'Why I am not a Christian' “The fundamental difference between the liberal and illiberal outlook is that the former regards all questions as open to discussion and all opinions as open to a greater or less measure of doubt, while the latter holds in advance that certain opinions are absolutely unquestionable, and that no argument against them must be allowed to be heard. What is curious about this position is the belief that if impartial investigation were permitted it would lead men to the wrong conclusion, and that ignorance, therefore, the only safeguard against error. This point of view is one which cannot be accepted by any man who wishes reason rather than prejudice to govern human action.” Personally when teaching I will present both sides of an argument and let the student decide the correct answers for themselves, unless of course I am presented with a polemic, in which case I will respond with a polemic from the contrary position to provoke thought. Nietzsche said "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher regard those who think alike than those who think differently." Perhaps the most important questions are ‘Why are we here?’ and ‘Is there a God’ as the answers to these questions define our existence. Even here to be a seeker of truth I think we should base what we believe on evidence, Nietzsche said; "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." To often people of religious backgrounds make appeals to emotion and feeling over what is logical deductive reason of the facts. Charles Larson produced a simply wonderful quote; "While spiritual insight or faith is one valid measure in spiritual matters, true spiritual insight never directly contradicts valid intellectual insight or facts in the physical world. Faith may go beyond reason, but does not go against it. It never blatantly contradicts the facts which we perceive with our God-given common sense. Faith and fact point in a single direction. When they do not, something is seriously wrong…A willingness to accept facts as they exist, and to learn to use them to test the views one holds rather than falling back on subjective experience or rationalizations, is the first step towards discovering genuine truth." I wish you luck on your search for truth, and will end with this quote from Rabindranath Tagore; "Truth comes as conqueror only to those who have lost the art of receiving it as friend."” Consider that in it’s whole entirety before you judge me for what I believe. Do not see atheists and agnostics as misled- attempt to see them as those in search of truth. Also, please read this as thoroughly as I asked you to read the other thread: http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=177491 Please accept me for my beliefs now, and don’t try to change me back. Consider me still the same son you always had, but don’t argue with me over what I believe. Please. It’s a waste of time that will only leave all of us angry at each other. Please listen to what I am saying. Try to see things through my own eyes. You’d feel the same way if you were in my shoes, and knew what I knew, had my standards, and all of my experiences. As you can tell I'm quite an amatuer at speeches... 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Ravnas Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 Well, all we can say is best of luck, I suppose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Jones Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 Actually, I never said therapist.Me neither. Let's hit that Carter-guy. I'm also not qualified to say whether he's ill or not, so I'm not touching that.Me neither. XD However, regarding that one question, he's more than healthy. ;~~ If there is a family dynamic that is interfering with effective communication, than a family therapist acting as mediator might be useful after all. You don't have to be ill to benefit from a family counselor's expertise. None of us has 100 percent perfect families.That is of course correct, Jae. Depending on the overall situation, asking some counsellor might as well be one route to go. Here in Germany there are a couple of institutions offering help/advice for "family affairs" of any kind, and that free of charge. I reckon there *must* be some reason for this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCarter426 Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 Me neither. Let's hit that Carter-guy. Hey! ...it would be wise to seek assistance from professionals to work with you and your parents--school counselor, trusted clergy, etc. Those are all therapists. *restrains self from making a certain SNL Celebrity Jeopardy joke* Oh, and I didn't suggest seeing a therapist either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth InSidious Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 Arcesious, Right now, the last thing you should do is make any hard-and-fast decision on the subject. As Sam said, read around. A lot. It's a mistake a lot of people make - myself included - not to educate themselves first. Your first port of call should probably be the classical philosophers: Plato, Aristotle, Seneca, Epicurus. From this basis most of Western thought derives - Christian or otherwise. If you want to really examine questions of faith, this is one of the places you might start from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan7 Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 Okay, well I need a good way to present this before my parents now... This is pretty rusty, and I'm not allt hat good with words, so any help in perfecting it would be apreciated... Here it is: As you can tell I'm quite an amatuer at speeches... The bulk of it seems to be my essay on Truth (I wrote the main of the quote, and all the quotes in it are from my wider reading, but the index/referance bit at the end for it is so long, I saw no point in including it). Though I can PM you exactly where all the quotes come from. I'm more than happy for you to use the essay my friend but I remain a Christian, while adhereing to that note; I wrote it to guide my own thinking; as to how to decide what is true. Arcesious, Right now, the last thing you should do is make any hard-and-fast decision on the subject. As Sam said, read around. A lot. It's a mistake a lot of people make - myself included - not to educate themselves first. Your first port of call should probably be the classical philosophers: Plato, Aristotle, Seneca, Epicurus. From this basis most of Western thought derives - Christian or otherwise. If you want to really examine questions of faith, this is one of the places you might start from. DI, makes a wonderful point here, though I would also add Descartes to the list as well. You do have alot of reading to do my friend, and I would slowly make a decision for yourself, instead of snap telling your parents what you think, before you have actually decided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth InSidious Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 ^I'm not saying Arcesious should not read later writers - by all means, there are many later books well worth using - but that he might like to start with the classical philosophers as a grounding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan7 Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 ^I'm not saying Arcesious should not read later writers - by all means, there are many later books well worth using - but that he might like to start with the classical philosophers as a grounding. Thats cool; infact thinking about it perhaps Bertrand Russel's 'A History of Western Philosophy' might be the best book to start with... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth InSidious Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 Why not start with the primary sources themselves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan7 Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 Why not start with the primary sources themselves? Can do, depends on styles; I think History of Western Philosophy is a good starting point as an introduction to Philosophy. Of course reading the primary sources allows you to draw your own conclusions, instead of trusting a secondary source. But I do like HoWP, I think its easily Russels best work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth InSidious Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 Can do, depends on styles; I think History of Western Philosophy is a good starting point as an introduction to Philosophy. Of course reading the primary sources allows you to draw your own conclusions, instead of trusting a secondary source. But I do like HoWP, I think its easily Russels best work. Ah, but there is the key - it is Russell's work - and draws the sources to his conclusions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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