Which Council Member?

[jonathan7]

Translation: I'm a particularly smug organic who for whatever reason can't actually defend my own argument. Therefore, instead of being convenient for all parties involved and staying out of the debate which I don't even want to participate in, I'll link to some other person's opinion and try to pass it off as indisputable proof of my opponent being "incorrect" even though we're trying to document our opinions, not prove each other "wrong". Addendum: For good measure, I'll mock my opponent with infuriating self-righteousness by implying that he is an ignorant simpleton for not reading the "evidence" which I linked to (even though it's entirely possible that he already has), and furthermore, if it does not change his opinion, then "there is no hope for him." Conclusion: I no longer wish to participate in this argument, but I refuse to let him "win."[/color]

 

*Sigh*

 

No it's like this; some of us have this thing called real life and don't consider a petty squabble over KotOR 2 to be particularly important; If you wish to think you have won, or that you are more intelligent than me, go right ahead I'm really not bothered, nor am I overly bothered about if you change your mind over K2 or not. I was nearly not bothered enough to respond.

 

However, its J7 story time - a history lesson what fun! - How it is pertinent I leave you to figure out.

 

One day in the Sudan, there was a devout Muslim worshipper and he had a vision from the prophet Muhammed - that he was the The Mahdi (the chosen one basically) and that he should be allowed to pray in all of Islam's mosques and that Islam should be united, and recognize him as the Mahdi. Anyone who did not do this would be killed.

 

His rebellion grew - he wanted to throw the Egyptians out of the Sudan - the British sent a guy called General Gordon to try and stop this - Gordon heroically snuck into the Mahdi's tent and tried to negotiate - the Mahdi was cordial but said he was going to get the Egyptians out, and that the streets of Khartoum would run with the blood of his enemies. The British tried to avoid military engagement and did everything they could to get Gordon out; Gordon being an honourable chap refused to leave the Civilians of Khartoum to their death - it cost him his life; as well as pretty much everyone in Khartoum being killed. When the British finally acted - they arrived two days late. The Mahdi later died of typhus, and the British stopped his uprising, killing lots and lots of people, while famine ravaged the land and to this day Sudan, still suffers from many of the problems from back then. - Inaction serves no-one; especially against reckless aggression, by an enemy who doesn't care who or what he does to acheive their objective; the longer you leave it the stronger your enemy gets, the more innocent people die, and the ramifications of the above gets worse and worse, and lasts for a longer period of time.

 

*Note this was a simplified version.

[Corinthian]

Wow, this thread rapidly descended into melodramatic. Nobody really cares about my opinion about these matters, but I'd like to suggest that it be locked.

[Q]

In an effort to put this thread back on track, I voted for Vash because of her views and her treatment of the Exile in the cut content.

[Burnseyy]

In an effort to put this thread back on track, I voted for Vash because of her views and her treatment of the Exile in the cut content.

 

I've seen some of the cut content, but not the one about Vash. Where would I look to find it?

[jonathan7]

I've seen some of the cut content, but not the one about Vash. Where would I look to find it?

 

You may find this; http://fromearth.net/LetsPlay/KOTOR%202/Update%2041/index.html

 

You may want to download this too; http://knightsoftheoldrepublic.filefront.com/file/Lonna_Vash_Mod;81631 - Excellent mod by Sikon, one of the best around!

[Burnseyy]

You may find this; http://fromearth.net/LetsPlay/KOTOR%202/Update%2041/index.html

 

You may want to download this too; http://knightsoftheoldrepublic.filefront.com/file/Lonna_Vash_Mod;81631 - Excellent mod by Sikon, one of the best around!

 

 

Thanks a lot, that's really helpful now I see what the fuss is about.

 

And is that a mod to put Vash's cut content in? Wow, I really should start looking at mods more often lol

[Darth_Yuthura]

Finally! Zhar has a vote.

 

He may not have much personality, but at least he wasn't a hag, like Atris, or an arrogant old geezer like Vrook. I found it interesting just how many times this thread has been revived. How could anyone be willing to go to such lengths to defend their vote?!

 

There have been a few dedicated Vrook or Atris fans that absolutely refuse to accept that they are a minority. Atris and Vrook are very polar characters... you either love them or despise them... I would suggest avoided a long-winded debate over characters that don't exist!

[Burnseyy]

Finally! Zhar has a vote.

 

He may not have much personality, but at least he wasn't a hag, like Atris, or an arrogant old geezer like Vrook. I found it interesting just how many times this thread has been revived. How could anyone be willing to go to such lengths to defend their vote?!

 

There have been a few dedicated Vrook or Atris fans that absolutely refuse to accept that they are a minority. Atris and Vrook are very polar characters... you either love them or despise them... I would suggest avoided a long-winded debate over characters that don't exist!

 

 

I hate Vrook for exactly that - he's an 'arrogant old geezer'

Jolee would win him in a fight, anyday.

 

But yes, I liked Zhar, but he just wasn't a 'favourite'. I don't like many of the council, to be precise... I picked Kavar purely out of his empathy for the exile, and the fact that he was more friendly than accusing.

 

And someone mentioned it before... he didn't just hide like everyone else. He continued to help people, and fight for justice.

[Darth_Yuthura]

My issue is that Kavar and ZKE seemed to follow Vrook without any consideration for their own authority. How could those two have known they had power to influence, but yield to Vrook? Surely they would have followed Vandar if he were the top dog, but they followed the lead of whomever was in front of them... like the sith.

[Burnseyy]

My issue is that Kavar and ZKE seemed to follow Vrook without any consideration for their own authority. How could those two have known they had power to influence, but yield to Vrook? Surely they would have followed Vandar if he were the top dog, but they followed the lead of whomever was in front of them... like the sith.

 

I think any member of the Council would have done the same thing. They're the council, they listen to the ones above them - that might make them like the sith, but who said the Council were any good? lol

 

No matter where you go, there will always be people following someone who is wrong - even in real life. It doesn't matter who they are, they just follow. You'll get a few people who go against it, but in that situation would you have gone against Vrook or the Exile?

 

They probably figured, since he/she IS an Exile, Vrook must be right, even if they thought/knew otherwise.

[Darth_Yuthura]

I think any member of the Council would have done the same thing. They're the council, they listen to the ones above them - that might make them like the sith, but who said the Council were any good? lol

 

No matter where you go, there will always be people following someone who is wrong - even in real life. It doesn't matter who they are, they just follow. You'll get a few people who go against it, but in that situation would you have gone against Vrook or the Exile?

 

They probably figured, since he/she IS an Exile, Vrook must be right, even if they thought/knew otherwise.

 

It wasn't a matter of respecting Vrook over the Exile... it was a matter of doing what they believed was right. ZKE said the Council refused to realize it was flawed. He should have either been absent or willing to do what he knew was right.

 

Kavar was sympathetic, but I don't think he ever admitted the Exile was wronged. I could understand why he didn't support her, but that didn't explain why he followed Vrook. I regret not seeing Vash throw in her opinion. She admitted what ZKE had and would have known that Vrook was just condemning the Exile a second time because he refused to believe the Council could have been the ones who were wrong.

 

I just don't know if Vrook and Atris were biassed because they were on the Council or if they were on the Council because they were biassed (against the dark side or enemies of the Order). I could understand the first time she was exiled, but surely even Vrook could see where the Council's actions had lead the jedi. They weren't usurped, so they couldn't blame anyone but themselves... and some continued shifting the blame away from themselves.

[Burnseyy]

It wasn't a matter of respecting Vrook over the Exile... it was a matter of doing what they believed was right. ZKE said the Council refused to realize it was flawed. He should have either been absent or willing to do what he knew was right.

 

Kavar was sympathetic, but I don't think he ever admitted the Exile was wronged. I could understand why he didn't support her, but that didn't explain why he followed Vrook. I regret not seeing Vash throw in her opinion. She admitted what ZKE had and would have known that Vrook was just condemning the Exile a second time because he refused to believe the Council could have been the ones who were wrong.

 

I just don't know if Vrook and Atris were biassed because they were on the Council or if they were on the Council because they were biassed (against the dark side or enemies of the Order). I could understand the first time she was exiled, but surely even Vrook could see where the Council's actions had lead the jedi. They weren't usurped, so they couldn't blame anyone but themselves... and some continued shifting the blame away from themselves.

 

I guess in a way, you could compare Vrook to old people in our day and age... they don't want to change their opinion on anything. of course that's just a stereotype. >.> kinda...

 

I couldn't say I'd be thinking all too straight in that situation - it was a now or never thing, and though they knew they were wrong, I don't think they wanted to risk another big war or dilemma concerning the Exile. Basically, Vrook saw the Exile as an immediate threat, especially to his place in the Council.

 

As for Atris, she has no excuse. She's just selfish, spoilt and cruel. I think she, much like Vrook, was powercrazy because of their place in the (previous) Council, and thought they could enforce their opinions everywhere, and have them made law.

[JCarter426]

My issue is that Kavar and ZKE seemed to follow Vrook without any consideration for their own authority.

Eh? The decision was unanimous. Vrook, Kavar, and believed the Exile should be exiled once again. It's not like they bowed down to Vrook; they were equals, and they made the decision together. And a such, the blame should be equally placed.

 

In some ways I'd say Ell and Kavar were worse than Vrook. At least he was honest about his views on the Exile. Kavar treated them like a friend, only to stab them in the back later. Ell claimed the Council was wrong for casting out the Exile, but then did it again in a heartbeat.

[Gurges-Ahter]

That's a good point, but I don't know if I agree that Kavar only acted like his friend - I think he truly felt sympathetic toward the Exile. His attitude was more of a "look kid, I like you, but I gotta do this for the greater good" as opposed to "you're evil and I'm scared and I hate you". The end result is the same, but I'd prefer the former position to the latter.

[HIGH ON PIE 14]

I guess in a way, you could compare Vrook to old people in our day and age... they don't want to change their opinion on anything. of course that's just a stereotype. >.> kinda...

 

I couldn't say I'd be thinking all too straight in that situation - it was a now or never thing, and though they knew they were wrong, I don't think they wanted to risk another big war or dilemma concerning the Exile. Basically, Vrook saw the Exile as an immediate threat, especially to his place in the Council.

 

As for Atris, she has no excuse. She's just selfish, spoilt and cruel. I think she, much like Vrook, was powercrazy because of their place in the (previous) Council, and thought they could enforce their opinions everywhere, and have them made law.

 

Oh, Atris, don´t even get me going on her again. A short, but acurate summary Burnseyy.

 

Yeah, the exile´s powers, were largely an unknown. I know the council had some idea of the nature...but the extent, maybe not. They feared the exile because deep down they knew he was more powerful. They took the easy "let just kill him/her" approach.

 

JCarter426: Thats a good point. Kavar uses the exile (if LS) to defeat Tobin´s army attacking the palace but then casts the exile aside like an old pair of shoes. Oh, sure, he treats the exile nicely enough, but when it comes down to the decision that matters...he screws the exile over. Hmmm, didn´t think about that when I voted for him...

 

I would have to say though, that while ZKE and Kavar did not bow down to Vrook, I could not see them making that decision without his considerable influence.

 

-HOP

[JCarter426]

I would have to say though, that while ZKE and Kavar did not bow down to Vrook, I could not see them making that decision without his considerable influence.

Eh, my impression on the three masters in the game was that Ell does everything Kavar says out of respect (he's always babbling on about Kavar's plan and Kavar being the best tactician), while Vrook kind of thought Kavar's sense of tactics was worse than Atris'. In any case, I doubt Kavar would listen all that much to Vrook; I see it going down with Vrook and Kavar deciding on exile, with Ell just nodding in silence.

 

And remember, as Kavar says: "The choice of one was the choice of us all."

[Darth_Yuthura]

This particular threat is so entertaining to watch. I just enjoy the constant battle for who daddy loves more!

 

I still think that Revan the the Exile were right to defy the Council. Everytime they are criticized by the Council, they are always regarded as failures.

 

-Even ZKE said 'Not once did the Council not take responsibility for Revan, Malak, Exar, or you(Exile).' He admitted the Council was at fault because these individuals were failures... he didn't even consider that maybe they did what they believed was right and the Council was defying the jedi ways.

-The darkside Council ending where Vrook survives has him blaming himself... for not having stopped the Exile long ago. When Malak was dominating the Galaxy, Vrook said the jedi (not the Council) had failed the Republic. He also blamed Revan for falling long before the Mando Wars w/out anything to back his claim.

-Kavar said that much more harm was done because Revan and Exile defied the Council... he never considered that they resolved the Mandalorian threat. And despite the Sith war, a crippled Republic was better than a crushed Republic.

-Zhar stated how Revan and Malak were foolish to defy the Council... he never bothered to consider that they had good reason to join the Republic forces. Never did he consider if they obeyed the Council and the Republic was crushed... but he was glad that someone other than the Council did the dirty work of defeating the Mandalorians.

-Vash... admitted what ZKE had, but still had not done anything for the Exile when or after she returned from the Mando Wars. She had good beliefs, but no deeds behind that.

-Atris... the worst of them all. She completely ignores fact and bends the truth to what shape best suited her. Often, the outcome resulted in her gaining power and others suffering.

 

I'd say that all the Council were flawed... some just more than others.

[Endorenna]

Hmm, I'll have to analyze all these people before I can vote.

 

Atris: I hate her guts. I SO enjoy killing her in TSL! And she fried Handmaiden, who's one of my favorite characters! Course, I might have to vote for her simply because I enjoy killing her...

 

Dorak: Whatever. He just sort of...stands there.

 

Kavar: With friends like that, who needs enemies?

 

Vandar: He lost any sympathy I might have had for him when he first opened his mouth and didn't speak backwards. And he's a minor character. He stands there in a cutscene, and that's 'bout it.

 

Vash: I liked her the moment I saw her. I think she was an idiot to exile the Exile, but then, so was the rest of the Council, so I can't burn her on that.

 

Vrook: DIE, JEDI DOG! Oh, what am I saying? He's the leader of the Council! (Arrogant jerkwad had it comin' to him when I killed him yesterday...) He destroyed any remorse I had in killing him when he started berating me for rescuing him! (Is that a Jedi habit, insisting that they weren't rescued?!? First Bastilla, and now Vrook! No wonder the Jedi Order went to pot!)

 

Zez-Kai Ell: I liked him at first, but then Dantooine came along, and that put a little kink in things. Between him and Kavar, it's like--"Hi, Masters, how ya doin', been chillin' on Nar Shaddaa and Onderon, glad you aren't dead, no, I don't hate you for throwing me out of the Order, I'll be on Dantooine in ten hours, cya there! Oh, you're gonna cut me off from the Force? Jooooooooooooooy...Thanks for the moral support, guys..."

 

Zhar: He sorta stood there lookin' dumb. Once he gives me my lightsaber, I can't care less what happens to him.

 

So, I guess it's between Vash and Atris! Well...I think I'll take Vash! She doesn't scream at me or turn to the Dark Side, she just dies.

 

And, with a dramatic click of my mouse, I resurrect this thread once more! (click)

[mattig89ch]

I like Kavar. He was still in the fight. the other two were cowering in some hole, while he was still advising and helping people.

[Allronix]

Atris: Geez...issues, much? Crazy, much? Repressed? You freaking bet. About the mildest comment I made was that she seriously needed to get laid.

 

Dorak: Somewhat dull, not terribly helpful. Just an exposition God.

 

Kavar: Interesting bloke. Actually doing his job. Hated to have to skewer the dude on my saber.

 

Vandar: Almost spilled the beans several times, and probably wanted to. I liked that he was charging in, shoulder to shoulder with Dodonna at the Star Forge brawl.

 

Vash: Woman in the Fridge, sadly. She actually seemed like she had potential.

 

Vrook: He was an ass. He needed to be an ass. Still, he typified most of the things I dislike about Jedi - hard adherence to dogma and heirarchy, at the expense of Living Force. He was ruled by his fear, both with Revan and with Exile, covering it with anger and hatred he denies to the hilt.

 

Zez-Kai Ell - Nice enough fellow, but he was a broken coward by the time we see him on Nar Shadaa.

 

Zhar - I voted for Zhar. It had to have sucked to get the short straw and end up retraining Revan. He seemed a good an honest fellow who believes and practices what he preaches.

[ChAiNz.2da]

Rather than make a long(er) winded post, I'm just gonna agree with Allronix's post.. couldn't have said it better

[Yar-El]

I voted for Kavar.

 

What has allways puzzled me was the whole, "I'm going to help you, so I can kill you later" attitude. Some of the story felt awkward, and the council members seemed to have suffered from amnesia. Why did the writters do that? It felt as though there was a sudden moment of them being out of character. Maybe that is a subject for another thread.

[HIGH ON PIE 14]

You mean the attitude o f the council members, right? Well, all of the members (at least Zez and Kavar) seemed to realize that the exile was stronger then them individually. Kavar used the exile to help him beat Vaklu (LS). I voted for Kavar too. They felt the exile was a threat but were not beneath using him/her to accomplish their goals. What sudden moment are you reffering to?

 

~HOP

[Darth_Yuthura]

Yeah... since I hate Atris so much, I'll just stab at her again.

 

She is so arrogant that I can't figure out where she ever got where she was. Vrook at least had something to back why he thought and believed the way he did, but Atris was just a raw jedi w/out anything to go by. How did she POSSIBLY get selected for the Council in the first place?

 

It's fun to anger her and hear her curse your name only to know you're better than she could ever have been! I love leaving her to the sith holocrons more than closing her eyes forever.

[TKA-001]