Universal Healthcare?

[SD Nihil]

Astor_Kaine

 

ou want me to provide proof that I can ask for a second opinion?

 

Besides, if i'm ill, i'd rather focus on actually getting the treatment I need as opposed to shopping around for a doctor who will conform to the budget I have.

 

Ah. So you don't want to give your source. Interesting. Because that's about the UHC system. I was also asked to back up my claims about UHC. Even though sources are subject to opinion don't you think you still need proof. See how I didn't think it was needed to give a source for something so easy.

 

Again, the Government doesn't. A doctor does, after examinations and tests to determine if anything is required.

 

Read. I said ultimately.

 

I've never stated otherwise.

 

Never said you did.

 

I'm curious why you assume I meant about treating minorities. The Government is responsible for the Department of Health, which oversees the NHS.

 

Just my opinion on it. Never said you said that either.

 

Governments tend not to steal research from doctors.

 

I doubt the government will allow you to make a lot of profit on your new breakthrough. I think they will tell you how much you can have and make.

 

It is on topic if you can't be bother to research for your argument.

 

I know it is. That was to show you how people will say things I've said on here are not on topic. Then I have to explain how they are. Then they say they aren't then I again state how they are. See how annoying that is.

 

Just showing you how it feels on the reciving side.

 

No, it wasn't an argument. But O'Reilly and 'smart' are rarely used together.

 

Ah see. I said it before and I knew someone would critisize my source even when I give it. lol. Thanks for proving me right again. Your a fun guy to post and debate with. lol. And that's a compliment.

 

And you call that a refute for what he said about UHC. And if you do again all sources are subject to everyone's opinion, bias, conclustions, where the source is from, etc. I even explained what people could say to bash my own source and gave why I thought he's credible. See it's all perspective.

 

So what do you think about a student who is working relatively inconsistent pay (such as lawn jobs, etc.), should they be denied coverage or the benefit of a plan that can get them the help they need should they encounter a fatal rough spot?

 

No. He should be doing more than lawn jobs. If that's all he chooses to do he's not working hard. I don't want to give money or a handout to a lazy.

[Astor]

Ah. So you don't want to give your source. Interesting. Because that's about the UHC system. I was also asked to back up my claims about UHC. Even though sources are subject to opinion don't you think you still need proof. See how I didn't think it was needed to give a source for something so easy.[/Quote]

 

I never said I wouldn't. But then again, I shouldn't have to, considering that the right to a second opinion is one of the basic rights in all healthcare across the world.

 

Read. I said ultimately.[/QUote]

 

And the Government still doesn't. See mine and SW01's points about it being 'overseen' by Governments. Very different to controlling.

 

Ah see. I said it before and I knew someone would critisize my source even when I give it. lol.

 

That's because O'Reilly is more of a sensationalist than a source.

 

And you call that a refute for what he said about UHC.

 

Sorry, but three minutes of scaremongering and whining doesn't even warrant a refute.

[SD Nihil]

I never said I wouldn't. But then again, I shouldn't have to, considering that the right to a second opinion is one of the basic rights in all healthcare across the world.

 

Duh. Opinion is is exactly what I was giving. And you think you shouldnt have to give a source. My point too about UHC. Yeah that's my right too. lol.

 

That's because O'Reilly is more of a sensationalist than a source.

 

In your opinion. In miine he's well researched man. Told you someone would bash me even when I give a source like him. I could call what you called Bill the same thing about Moore. Ender did a while back.

 

Sorry, but three minutes of scaremongering and whining doesn't even warrant a refute.

 

Whatever. That's your opinion.

[Astor]

Opinion is is exactly what I was giving. And you think you shouldnt have to give a source. My point too about UHC. Yeah that's my right too. lol.[/Quote]

 

You have quite spectacularly missed my point. My point is that the right to a Second Medical Opinion is a basic right for all across the world.

 

In your opinion. In miine he's well researched man. Told you someone would bash me even when I give a source like him. I could call what you called Bill the same thing about Moore.[/Quote]

 

Go ahead, I dislike the both of them.

[El Sitherino]

No. He should be doing more than lawn jobs. If that's all he chooses to do he's not working hard. I don't want to give money or a handout to a lazy.

 

And just how do you plan to fix the job market? As well, what does the job market have to do with insurance? You're saying because of something outside of people's control, they should be denied proper and decent coverage that they can afford?

 

Also, I doubt someone doing manual labor for 10 hours a day is a lazy person.

[Inyri]

Financially, what's the difference between paying taxes into a health care system that benefits everyone and paying premiums for an insurance policy you may potentially never end up making use of? Those premiums you pay to your insurance company are paying for the health care of other people.

 

What exactly is the difference, realistically? Because it seems to me that one of the biggest qualms is people don't want to be paying for someone else's care. Guess what? You are either way.

[mimartin]

Financially, what's the difference between paying taxes into a health care system that benefits everyone and paying premiums for an insurance policy you may potentially never end up making use of? [/Quote]None! Other than the fact you make everyone share in the burden with UHC there is no difference.

 

What exactly is the difference, realistically? Because it seems to me that one of the biggest qualms is people don't want to be paying for someone else's care. Guess what? You are either way.

QFT

No. He should be doing more than lawn jobs. If that's all he chooses to do he's not working hard. I don't want to give money or a handout to a lazy.

I don't know if I have every read anything more offensive on this forum. My Grandfather worked hard every day of his life. He was not lazy. I’m by far way more lazy than my grandfather ever was, although I most likely earn in a couple hours what it took him a month to earn. If you have not guessed my Grandfather earned his livelihood by mowing lawns. I did not say that was his occupation, because he was Presbyterian Minister. However, he was also an idealist and would not accept compensation for doing the Lord’s work.

 

Just because you do not approve of a person's occupation does not mean they are lazy. That is a fact and not just my opinion.

[Astor]

Financially, what's the difference between paying taxes into a health care system that benefits everyone and paying premiums for an insurance policy you may potentially never end up making use of? Those premiums you pay to your insurance company are paying for the health care of other people.

 

That's a very good question, one I would be very interested to know the answer to. I've been trying to find a figure for the NHS per taxpayer, and i'll post it as soon as I have it.

 

As to the actual health systems, a study last year by the Commonwealth Fund reviewed healthcare in six different countries. The UK's NHS came first in both cost, and in quality of care, while the US health system ranked last.

 

Source

[El Sitherino]

I just hardly see any detriment in adding a tax model on an already existent program, therefore forcing it to comply with well regulated standards allowing for proper budgeting of it's expenses. As well provided a universal program for which insurance must comply with, there it extends either a government established insurance program or you get private insurance with better coverage and reasonable rates. The company still makes profit, however they aren't sitting on fat collections with no output into the actual people it's meant for.

[Lance Monance]

So if you admit that some people will end up without the means to get healthcare despite their hard effort, Sd Nihil, how exactly do you justify denying it them?

[mimartin]

Another question would be: Which is cheaper to provide emergency care or preventive care?

[SD Nihil]

Because I believe government has ultimate control over the UHC system. If it can regulate pay, advancement, and what is considered standard of care then that's the government making those decisions.

[SW01]

And, again, speaking as a resident of a nation with a functioning UHC system, the government does not control the standard of care.

 

A government department oversees the operation of hospitals. A government minister is held to account by Parliament and the people for the operation of the Health Service. The government minister reports to the Prime Minister, who reports to Parliament and the people.

 

The government works out how much of the budget should go to the NHS. The NHS trusts decide how it should be implemented. Your doctor decides what level of care you need.

[jonathan7]

Massive thread clear - basically one individual's posts I felt were of poor quality, frequently obnoxious; and were causing many of the problems in thread, so thought it best to be pruned. I apologise to all those of you whom spent time replying to said individual - but thread wouldn't of made much sense if I left your posts in. - GB j7

[Astor]

The simple fact is that a UHC is not government controlled. Funded, yes, controlled, no.

 

A UHC removes a Doctor's concerns about their paychecks, allowing them to focus solely on the needs of the patient, not how much they can pay. UHCs also do not stall or prevent advancement in the system - if anything it creates a more level playing field because everyone is, in effect working for the same employer.

[Web Rider]

The simple fact is that a UHC is not government controlled. Funded, yes, controlled, no.

 

A UHC removes a Doctor's concerns about their paychecks, allowing them to focus solely on the needs of the patient, not how much they can pay. UHCs also do not stall or prevent advancement in the system - if anything it creates a more level playing field because everyone is, in effect working for the same employer.

 

I find some irony in the fact that we lack a UHC, my aunt, who makes a dang lot of money for a doctor(she made more than the president until he raised his income), makes it in the California prison system. Which pretty much has a Universal care program paid through taxes(though, ironically, not through the taxes of the people it serves).

 

It pays well, has good job security, and judging from the fact that many minor criminals become institutionalized due to better care in prisons than in non-prison life, I would say their quality of care is pretty good.

 

So, assuming we have a healthcare program at least as good as our massivly bloated prison system, I think we'd have a good deal. We already pay for some 300,000 prisoners who aren't paying for us, seems only right we pay for people who aren't criminals as well.

[SD Nihil]

I took this week to research UHC and CHC. I've come to the conclusion that both systems have pros and cons to them. I believe national pride makes a difference or can in your decision of which system you prefer. I believe it also depends on what you people feel is best for your own countries.

 

As an American living in the U.S. I'm content with our CHC. As a person with Goldenhar's syndrome I'm well pleased with the care I've received through our Private health care system.

 

Below is the link. What it will take you to are a list of articles. Depending on who's writing each person will present what they think are the pros and cons of each system. This is just one link. I believe this shows how much info on both systems is out on the internet. I say make your own decisions. I believe both sides of the coin those that prefer UHC and CHC have the right to give sources, stick with their opinions no matter what, and believe the way they want without fear of retribution.

 

Here's the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=Canadian+and+American+health+care+systems+compared+++++++++++++++++++++Systems+compared&ns0=1&fulltext=Search

 

I also would like to apologize to Jonathan and the other mods. Your right I was wrong in my conduct. With Goldenhar's my sight issues make it difficult to research and read heavily. The source I was given (e-mailed) by my father. Again I apologize. There's so few of the differing opinion on here I think it's my duty to pick up the slack.

 

Anyway, in the end I believe anyone can speak eloquently enough to discredit, spin, and think the way they want even about facts. So I will not try to convince you. I know what I believe about UHC and CHC. And I have every right to stick to it as you do too.

 

In the future I would like those to understand though you may disagree with me please do not attack me over my views on poverty and such. I hate no one here. Though you may not like me I like each and everyone of you. I felt I needed to say this. So please let's not make a big deal of it though it doesn't totally fit with the topic.

[Yar-El]

I know this is bringing up an old topic; however, there is a sense of irony in this update. There is time to talk, and there is a time for action. Obama is procrastinating with the health care subject. He talked big during the election, and now he can't seem to deliver.

 

Article -

Obama asks nation for health-care reform input

 

'We want your exact ideas'

With the transition team contemplating how to deliver on his campaign promise to expand health coverage and lower costs, "what we want to do now is to move to a discussion across the country," Daschle said in a speech yesterday in Denver. "We want your exact ideas."

 

In addition to the house parties, Obama's transition Web site, Change.gov, is collecting thousands of comments on health-care reform.

 

By seeking broad public input early in the process, the incoming administration hopes to avoid some of the mistakes of President Clinton's failed initiative 15 years ago, said Daschle, who is also Obama's choice for secretary of health and human services.

 

"Details kill," he said, recounting that opponents picked apart Clinton's thousand-page bill. "Once we get started, we have to stay focused. Let's finish it, let's not put it down."

Obama is saying, "I don't know how to fix the healthcare issue. We made alot of big promises; however, we don't know how to deliver on them."

[Litofsky]

I know this is bringing up an old topic; however, there is a sense of irony in this update. There is time to talk, and there is a time for action. Obama is procrastinating with the health care subject. He talked big during the election, and now he can't seem to deliver.

So, he's not even in office yet, and he "can't deliver?" I prefer to look it as Obama's acting before he can even change things yet, and not waiting until the first day to get started. Kudos to him for taking the initiative before even taking office.

 

Obama is saying, "I don't know how to fix the healthcare issue. We made alot of big promises; however, we don't know how to deliver on them."

In your opinion, that is. In my opinion, he's saying, "Before I officially take office, I'd like the populace's opinion on what your healthcare system should be."

[EnderWiggin]

I know this is bringing up an old topic; however, there is a sense of irony in this update. There is time to talk, and there is a time for action. Obama is procrastinating with the health care subject. He talked big during the election, and now he can't seem to deliver.

 

Article -

Obama asks nation for health-care reform input

 

 

Obama is saying, "I don't know how to fix the healthcare issue. We made alot of big promises; however, we don't know how to deliver on them."

 

Keep your pants on until he gets into office, kay? He's not going to do anything about it as President-elect, so how is asking for information/opinions not a good idea? He's doing something, which is more than nothing, which means he's on the road to delivery.

 

_EW_

[Yar-El]

So, he's not even in office yet, and he "can't deliver?" I prefer to look it as Obama's acting before he can even change things yet, and not waiting until the first day to get started. Kudos to him for taking the initiative before even taking office.

Don't you find that to be a problem? He made a big promise that helped get him elected; however, his plan to reform healthcare seems to have hit a wall.

 

So, he's not even in office yet, and he "can't deliver?" I prefer to look it as Obama's acting before he can even change things yet, and not waiting until the first day to get started. Kudos to him for taking the initiative before even taking office.

He is acting, and he is failing. What else does he need to do?

 

In your opinion, that is. In my opinion, he's saying, "Before I officially take office, I'd like the populace's opinion on what your healthcare system should be."

Obama was the guy with a plan, right? Why does he need our input if he was voted into office based upon people believing in his plan? I thought he had all the answers for creating a Universal Healthcare system?

[EnderWiggin]

Don't you find that to be a problem? He made a big promise that helped get him elected; however, his plan to reform healthcare seems to have hit a wall.

 

 

He is acting, and he is failing. What else does he need to do?

 

His starting early is a problem? What?

 

And he's not failing yet, he can't do anything anyway as President-elect.

Obama was the guy with a plan, right? Why does he need our imput if he was voted into office based upon people believing in his plan?

Input. And more information is never a bad thing.

 

 

"In order for us to reform our health care system, we must first begin reforming how government communicates with the American people," Obama said in a statement yesterday.

 

Tactic aims to circumvent special interests that quashed previous efforts.

 

By seeking broad public input early in the process, the incoming administration hopes to avoid some of the mistakes of President Clinton's failed initiative 15 years ago, said Daschle

_EW_

[Litofsky]

Don't you find that to be a problem? He made a big promise that helped get him elected; however, his plan to reform healthcare seems to have hit a wall.

Yes, that "wall," as you put it is him not being in office yet! The way I see it, he's moving to take action before he's even the President. And for what? You're bashing him because of an ostensible 'lack of ideas?' How do you know this for sure, Yar? Do tell.

 

He is acting, and he is failing. What else does he need to do?

I'll repeat myself: Barack Obama is not yet President. Abiding by the law, he cannot act! How is he failing, Yar?

 

Obama was the guy with a plan, right? Why does he need our input if he was voted into office based upon people believing in his plan? I thought he had all the answers for creating a Universal Healthcare system?

First off, this was only one of his promises that Obama proposed. Second, he promised to establish a Universal Healthcare System, and, so far as I know, never gave any specifics. What he's doing now is asking for opinions on how it should be implemented.

[Q]

Yes, I agree that we should wait until he's in office and ultimately fails to deliver on all of the wondrous miracles that he's promised to perform before we criticize him.

 

Yar-El is wise enough to make an early reservation in the "I told you so" section of the peanut gallery, however.

[Yar-El]

Yes, that "wall," as you put it is him not being in office yet! The way I see it, he's moving to take action before he's even the President. And for what? You're bashing him because of an ostensible 'lack of ideas?' How do you know this for sure, Yar? Do tell.

 

I'll repeat myself: Barack Obama is not yet President. Abiding by the law, he cannot act! How is he failing, Yar?

Leaders are not held back by walls. I thought he was a leader. People must be wrong.